Was Knuckles ever a serious character?

[Guergy]

When I was growing up, I always thought of Knuckles as being the serious, solemn character who is slightly naive in certain places. It was an interpretation that has stuck with for years until someone posted a few posts that challenged this view of the character. I am aware that Knuckles was something of a trickster in Sonic 3 and Sonic Triple Trouble but I had no idea that he was supposed to be a joke character. Someone pointed out that one of the rival fights in Sonic the Fighters was played up as a joke as opposed to a serious rival fight. I never thought Knuckles as a "joke character" but I had not considered that Knuckles was not as "serious" as he pretended to be. To be honest, I was somewhat shocked that Knuckles was treated as a joke in those games as I always assumed that Knuckles was a somewhat serious character but I was wrong about him. What do you do you think about this? Was Knuckles ever a serious character? Did this revelation Knuckles was a joke change your view of the character? And what does that this revelation mean for Knuckles appearances in other Sonic media? 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I joined around SA1, so I can't be certain, but I don't think so?

Fighters was a cartoony game, with no story, no idea how this can be a valid argument.

But overall the problem is that they wanted Knuckles to be good guy and yet fight Sonic. And writing is hard, so they kept tricking him.

It pains me to say it, but I think Sonic X and especially Battle officially established Knuckles as incredibly gullible.

[Rabid-Coot]

Probably because for a good chunk of time all we had to go on was the interpretations in licenced media.

[Empire88]

I feel like Knuckles was always gullible (but well intentioned) even from Sonic 3 with him being posed against Sonic initially. He sees the best in people and takes them at their word often which is a sign of his kindness as well. But it also means he can be tricked. Even for the Sonic 2 movie they mentioned he is "serious but gullible". 

I guess the issue is the balance between gullibility and the stuff that Knuckles does that is interpreted as stupidity by fans plus the lack of significant contribution in games which makes it seem worse.

Finally as others mentioned I think licensed media were our first portrayals of more of his character. Some people see OVA Knuckles as "the ideal Knuckles" where is isn't that gullible but then forget in SA1 two years later in 98 he was tricked by Eggman again. 

[Kuzu]

I'll admit, I kind of bought into the hype to as a kid. Knuckles' design basically screams that he's supposed to be an opposite to Sonic. He debuts by ambushing your powered up form from the last game. So it kind of created some expectations for the character as someone who can challenge Sonic.

Even the American writers bought into it as the comics always played up their fights whenever they happened, and then Penders basically made Knuckles into a main character with his book series.

 

So yea, it was a bit jarring when I noticed that he was more of a joke later on and yea, it made me very mad. But I paid attention to interviews and the concepts behind his creation, Sega never intended Knuckles to be taken seriously and with an adult mind on reflecting yea, I can see that.

Everything he does is more to mess with you than actually getting in tour way, and when you do confront him, he's a joke. Then he keeps fucking up over and over.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think the "Is Knuckles serious or silly?" question is a false dichotomy. The answer is yes.

Knuckles is a character with a solemn duty, and a sense of focused purpose. He's the last of his kind, and devotes his life to protecting his home and the Emerald that keeps it afloat. He's been shown as both a capable ally and enemy on different occasions, and I think it's clear that Knuckles is anything but a pushover.

Knuckles is also gullible, temperamental, and easy to confuse. These traits show up over and over throughout the series, and are simply a part of who Knuckles is. They're flaws that help create a more complete and nuanced character - but they don't detract from his more serious points simply by existing.

Knuckles is a character who manages to be both sincerely serious and ridiculous at the same time, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Kuzu]

52 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think the "Is Knuckles serious or silly?" question is a false dichotomy. The answer is yes.

Knuckles is a character with a solemn duty, and a sense of focused purpose. He's the last of his kind, and devotes his life to protecting his home and the Emerald that keeps it afloat. He's been shown as both a capable ally and enemy on different occasions, and I think it's clear that Knuckles is anything but a pushover.

Knuckles is also gullible, temperamental, and easy to confuse. These traits show up over and over throughout the series, and are simply a part of who Knuckles is. They're flaws that help create a more complete and nuanced character - but they don't detract from his more serious points simply by existing.

Knuckles is a character who manages to be both sincerely serious and ridiculous at the same time, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

The thing is, Knuckles is almost always a liability. There was a time when he was always fucking over Sonic in someway more than helping him.

I don't think mind Knuckles being silly either, but I don't think Sega ever took him seriously as either an opponent or an ally to Sonic.

[Guergy]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think the "Is Knuckles serious or silly?" question is a false dichotomy. The answer is yes.

Knuckles is a character with a solemn duty, and a sense of focused purpose. He's the last of his kind, and devotes his life to protecting his home and the Emerald that keeps it afloat. He's been shown as both a capable ally and enemy on different occasions, and I think it's clear that Knuckles is anything but a pushover.

Knuckles is also gullible, temperamental, and easy to confuse. These traits show up over and over throughout the series, and are simply a part of who Knuckles is. They're flaws that help create a more complete and nuanced character - but they don't detract from his more serious points simply by existing.

Knuckles is a character who manages to be both sincerely serious and ridiculous at the same time, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

You might be right. It is just I never though Knuckles as being this silly character who messes more often than he helps. Knuckles just seem like the serious, older brother to me. 

[Kuzu]

I'm not going to knock people for having their interpretation of events, but I honestly cannot understand how you can look at how often Knuckles screws up and see him as a reliable character that the cast relies on. If he was meant to come off as a character that the audience was meant to be taken seriously, having so many jokes at his expense without balancing out with general competence runs counter to that doesn't it?

I'm not saying a character can only just "serious" or "silly", but you kind of need to balance them out and Knuckles has far more "silly" moments than he does "serious" ones. Sonic Adventure is probably the only game when he's played sort of straight as a character, but he still has the whole "gets tricked by Eggman" deal and the game never really addresses that and it just moves on as normal.

[Diogenes]

In the games, no, not really.

It's not that he's a total clown, it's not that he's never had any dignity, but he's always been kind of a doofus. If 3&K had meant to portray him wholly seriously, it wouldn't have given him so many goofy but largely inconsequential traps. It wouldn't have dumped him into the lake at the end of Launch Base. It wouldn't have him get knocked flat on his back twice within a minute in Hidden Palace. He's basically the Scratch and Grounder of 3&K, only more serious than them as much as 3&K is more serious than AoStH.

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not going to knock people for having their interpretation of events, but I honestly cannot understand how you can look at how often Knuckles screws up and see him as a reliable character that the cast relies on.

He can smash things pretty good. And there's always stuff around that needs smashing.

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

He can smash things pretty good. And there's always stuff around that needs smashing.

Not that notable when everyone can smash robots pretty well to an extent, but it's something. 

[Guergy]

I thought Knuckles was serious yet gullible but now I know he is just a goofball. So much Knuckles being a serious character....

[E-122-Psi]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:09 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

Knuckles is a character who manages to be both sincerely serious and ridiculous at the same time, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Same really. I think he's very similar to Sonic in that regard, in that Sonic works better having an earnest quality to him rather than just being an arrogant catchphrase spouting loon, but at the same time if you take away ALL his whimsy, he ends up a pretty flat hero as well.

The Sonic series was bred on whimsy, it wasn't a JOKE SERIES, sure, but that's the trick here. Character with comical qualities isn't the same as one note comic relief. Not every 'serious' character has to be like Shadow, a broody suave macho badass with not a single joke or indignancy thrown their way, nor does a 'comical' character have to be say, Bean, just a wacky bumbling non-sequitur without much of any earnest depth to him. You get those extremities with characters SOMETIMES, especially supporting ones, but a lot of characters are complex happy balances.

Knuckles always felt like that sort of character that was a badass in some regard, a guy that could match Sonic and take down Eggman's schemes in his own story arc, but still suffer a few pratfalls or silly moments along the way. A character who isn't quite as badass as he THINKS he is doesn't mean he isn't badass at all.

I feel it was the western media, especially the UK and US comics, that shoehorned Knuckles into the 'serious' type for their more actionized storylines, which I think maybe led to many seeing him as a serious guy early on, meanwhile the later Japanese spinoffs slowly made Knuckles into comic relief. Then we get Boom (though in fairness Boom was wholly comical anyway).

[Guergy]

On 1/18/2022 at 11:24 PM, E-122-Psi said:

Same really. I think he's very similar to Sonic in that regard, in that Sonic works better having an earnest quality to him rather than just being an arrogant catchphrase spouting loon, but at the same time if you take away ALL his whimsy, he ends up a pretty flat hero as well.

The Sonic series was bred on whimsy, it wasn't a JOKE SERIES, sure, but that's the trick here. Character with comical qualities isn't the same as one note comic relief. Not every 'serious' character has to be like Shadow, a broody suave macho badass with not a single joke or indignancy thrown their way, nor does a 'comical' character have to be say, Bean, just a wacky bumbling non-sequitur without much of any earnest depth to him. You get those extremities with characters SOMETIMES, especially supporting ones, but a lot of characters are complex happy balances.

Knuckles always felt like that sort of character that was a badass in some regard, a guy that could match Sonic and take down Eggman's schemes in his own story arc, but still suffer a few pratfalls or silly moments along the way. A character who isn't quite as badass as he THINKS he is doesn't mean he isn't badass at all.

I feel it was the western media, especially the UK and US comics, that shoehorned Knuckles into the 'serious' type for their more actionized storylines, which I think maybe led to many seeing him as a serious guy early on, meanwhile the later Japanese spinoffs slowly made Knuckles into comic relief. Then we get Boom (though in fairness Boom was wholly comical anyway).

That may explain why Knuckles was always perceived as solemn by Western audiences. I will admit Semi Serious!Knuckles to Goofball!Knuckles, I just really hate how he became a joke character over the years. 

[KnuxDLX]

He started off as a wild card and a serious rival but has been turned into a goofball.

All I will say is that I know the movie is definitely setting the correct tone for his character so far.

[KnuxDLX]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:40 PM, Kuzu said:

I'm not going to knock people for having their interpretation of events, but I honestly cannot understand how you can look at how often Knuckles screws up and see him as a reliable character that the cast relies on. If he was meant to come off as a character that the audience was meant to be taken seriously, having so many jokes at his expense without balancing out with general competence runs counter to that doesn't it?

I'm not saying a character can only just "serious" or "silly", but you kind of need to balance them out and Knuckles has far more "silly" moments than he does "serious" ones. Sonic Adventure is probably the only game when he's played sort of straight as a character, but he still has the whole "gets tricked by Eggman" deal and the game never really addresses that and it just moves on as normal.

To be fair, the way Eggman tricks Knuckles in SA1 is very believable and funny, using him as a “guinea pig” against Chaos, the thing that shattered the Master Emerald, and then telling him Sonic is after the Master Emerald, too. When he sees Sonic with a Chaos Emerald it’s perfectly set up for what he’s going to do next. 

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, KnuxDLX said:

To be fair, the way Eggman tricks Knuckles in SA1 is very believable and funny, using him as a “guinea pig” against Chaos, the thing that shattered the Master Emerald, and then telling him Sonic is after the Master Emerald, too. When he sees Sonic with a Chaos Emerald it’s perfectly set up for what he’s going to do next. 

I mean sure, but it doesn't exactly do him any favors to be deceived by the same person who tricked him the first time.

[batson]

When it comes to the original SEGA of Japan/Sonic Team interpretations of the personalities of the classic characters, I always think the Sonic OVA is probably the most accurate source we have. And just as with Sonic, Tails and Eggman, Knuckles in the movie is probably close to how SEGA of Japan and Sonic Team saw him. That is to say, a basically serious character (I don't think any of the classic characters were intended as downright joke characters on the level of, say, Big the Cat) but with very obvious and intentional comedic aspects. For one thing, Knuckles is a character who never tries to be funny, he never jokes around, but that in turn is what can easily make him comedic. Take a tough and no-nonsense treasue hunter like Knuckles and have him freak out over his hat being on fire, and it's comedy. His tendency to misunderstand other peoples motives is also present in the movie; he interprets Tails accidentally grabbing Sara's breasts as Tails being creep who did so intentionally ("I never thought you'd stoop that low!").

[KnuxDLX]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I mean sure, but it doesn't exactly do him any favors to be deceived by the same person who tricked him the first time.

Yes, but he has dialogue where he questions the info Eggman gave him and he doesn’t really believe him until he thinks he sees Sonic with a Master Emerald shard.

 

I always chalked up his “naïveté” to his social isolation. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing that Knuckles saw Eggman as a more morally grey character when Eggman started helping Sonic save the world from threats even bigger than himself. Also, Knuckles is hardly the only one Eggman has tricked:

They thought they were real smart too with that fake emerald but Eggman knew all along. You just have to accept that he has powerful persuasive powers. Anytime he feigns mercy or promises to turn over a new leaf even Sonic listens to him and gives him enough time to trap Sonic or escape. It has more to do with Eggman being a diabolical genius than the other characters being too naïve.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, KnuxDLX said:

Yes, but he has dialogue where he questions the info Eggman gave him and he doesn’t really believe him until he thinks he sees Sonic with a Master Emerald shard.

 

I always chalked up his “naïveté” to his social isolation. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing that Knuckles saw Eggman as a more morally grey character when Eggman started helping Sonic save the world from threats even bigger than himself. Also, Knuckles is hardly the only one Eggman has tricked:

They thought they were real smart too with that fake emerald but Eggman knew all along. You just have to accept that he has powerful persuasive powers. Anytime he feigns mercy or promises to turn over a new leaf even Sonic listens to him and gives him enough time to trap Sonic or escape. It has more to do with Eggman being a diabolical genius than the other characters being too naïve.

None of this true at all. You can't just chalk up every time this character is deceived as "naivete", especially when Sonic himself is calling out his stupidity on the matter. "You let Eggman trick you, again"  "Again" being the keyword here. The characters are acknowledging that this has happened before, and are calling him out on it. If Sonic himself is telling him that this shouldn't be happening, why are fans so quick to make excuses for this??? Naivete only works if the character in question lacks experience or wisdom with certain situations, but Knuckles should KNOW Eggman is a liar at this point. 

Eggman tricking Tails isn't anywhere near as bad because Tails simply made a miscalculation, which is more forgivable than Knuckles who just continuously believes the same person's words at face value. At the point of Sonic Adventure, Eggman hadn't even teamed up with Sonic at all to save the world yet. Hell, when Eggman confronts him and Sonic in SA2, Knuckles' immediate response is to assume he's causing the Ark to crash into the Earth.

 

 

The fact that this fanbase is just so willing to excuse all of Knuckles` stupid behavior is both hilarious and sad to me.

6 hours ago, batson said:

When it comes to the original SEGA of Japan/Sonic Team interpretations of the personalities of the classic characters, I always think the Sonic OVA is probably the most accurate source we have. And just as with Sonic, Tails and Eggman, Knuckles in the movie is probably close to how SEGA of Japan and Sonic Team saw him. That is to say, a basically serious character (I don't think any of the classic characters were intended as downright joke characters on the level of, say, Big the Cat) but with very obvious and intentional comedic aspects. For one thing, Knuckles is a character who never tries to be funny, he never jokes around, but that in turn is what can easily make him comedic. Take a tough and no-nonsense treasue hunter like Knuckles and have him freak out over his hat being on fire, and it's comedy. His tendency to misunderstand other peoples motives is also present in the movie; he interprets Tails accidentally grabbing Sara's breasts as Tails being creep who did so intentionally ("I never thought you'd stoop that low!").

That's basically how he's been characterized in every video game. Most of the comedy from Knuckles isn't him making jokes or acting goofy, but trying to be serious and looking like a moron as a result. 

[KnuxDLX]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

None of this true at all. You can't just chalk up every time this character is deceived as "naivete", especially when Sonic himself is calling out his stupidity on the matter. "You let Eggman trick you, again"  "Again" being the keyword here. The characters are acknowledging that this has happened before, and are calling him out on it. If Sonic himself is telling him that this shouldn't be happening, why are fans so quick to make excuses for this??? Naivete only works if the character in question lacks experience or wisdom with certain situations, but Knuckles should KNOW Eggman is a liar at this point. 

Eggman tricking Tails isn't anywhere near as bad because Tails simply made a miscalculation, which is more forgivable than Knuckles who just continuously believes the same person's words at face value. At the point of Sonic Adventure, Eggman hadn't even teamed up with Sonic at all to save the world yet. Hell, when Eggman confronts him and Sonic in SA2, Knuckles' immediate response is to assume he's causing the Ark to crash into the Earth.

 

 

The fact that this fanbase is just so willing to excuse all of Knuckles` stupid behavior is both hilarious and sad to me.

That's basically how he's been characterized in every video game. Most of the comedy from Knuckles isn't him making jokes or acting goofy, but trying to be serious and looking like a moron as a result. 

I just think that Eggman has that maxed out persuasion skill and Knuckles is… Knuckles. You can call it naïveté or gullibility, but while Eggman traveled the world tricking who knows how many people, Knuckles was alone on Angel Island. All he knows is the M.E. and when it’s shattered he’s willing to believe anyone who might have any info about it. 

[Guergy]

Knuckles is a surprisingly naive character but then again, he is a loner who lived on Angel Island for most of his life 

[TailsGotTrolled]

How did eggman trick knuckles into actually driving one of his vehicles in one of the GBA games?

[MetalSkulkBane]

10 hours ago, TailsGotTrolled said:

How did eggman trick knuckles into actually driving one of his vehicles in one of the GBA games?

To be completely honest we don't have enough data to guess what's going on. All we know Knuckles got tricked.

Maybe he's idiot and sees Sonic as Eggman and tries to kill him.
Or he got lured into machine, is stuck in pilot seat and it just looks like he's piloting the thing. Who knows.