Sonic 2 Movie Spoiler Thread (Mostly Untagged Spoilers)

[batson]

So about this whole debate on the movie incarnation of Sonic in relation to the game incarnation of Sonic I'm just gonna say this; if the makers of the movies ever had any ambition at all to make their version of Sonic stay somewhat true to the traditional/game version... they fucked up completely.

Seriously, the movie version is such a fundamentally different character than the game version (or ANY other previous version of the character) that I can hardly even think of the former as based on the latter other in terms of personality. Yeah they're both cocky and make witty remarks but that is their ONLY significant similarity. The game version of Sonic is, in terms of personality, defined by his confidence and independence more than anything else, while the movie version is at least in the first movie defined by his need to gain confidence that he doesn't have, and also by his emotional dependence on others (he tries to live in solitude but has an emotional need to bonds with others). Movie Sonic might be cocky but otherwise he is kind of the opposite of game Sonic in terms of core personality traits and what themes he represents.

And honestly, I personally don't care for movie Sonic at all. He is no longer an ideal to admire, he's just a whiny needy insecure kid, the kind that most of us were in real life at one point. He's not really a cool badass that we wish we were anymore, he's just an average person that, like I said, many of actually were or still are. He's only a hero because he happens to have physical powers, not because he has a personality that is specifically suited for a hero or adventurer. When I was a kid me and all my freinds wanted to be Sonic because he was cool. If kids of today watching these movies wants to be Sonic it's probably moreso because he can do cool things, and there is a big difference.

[Polkadi~☆]

29 minutes ago, batson said:

And honestly, I personally don't care for movie Sonic at all. He is no longer an ideal to admire, he's just a whiny needy insecure kid, the kind that most of us were in real life at one point. He's not really a cool badass that we wish we were anymore, he's just an average person that, like I said, many of actually were or still are. He's only a hero because he happens to have physical powers, not because he has a personality that is specifically suited for a hero or adventurer. When I was a kid me and all my freinds wanted to be Sonic because he was cool. If kids of today watching these movies wants to be Sonic it's probably moreso because he can do cool things, and there is a big difference.

I can agree strongly with this. My parents always find it strange when I say that I looked up to Sonic as a kid, but I believe there was good reason to; he's a positive influence, and represented an ideal for an open-minded emotionally strong free spirit. He wasn't just a hero, he's a good person to his core, and I believe any kid can love a character who inspires them to be better, as Sonic already does for his friends around him.

Which makes movie Sonic such a shock, he's not much of an inspiration to anyone. "Okay," one might think, "Sonic could develop into a headstrong inspirational character." Well, the movie had that chance and missed it completely. He's not independent, he's not really emotionally strong either, more that he's kind of a 'whiny kid,' as you put it.

It's not like the movies would be any worse if Sonic became more like his game characterisation. If anything, the movies gave him all the more reason to become that kind of Sonic. A hero with an emotionally strong core is still a character worth investing into for a movie. It's not even a characterisation that only works in a video game, even Luke Skywalker from Star Wars is a character with a strong emotional core that wants to bring out the best in others, which he does due to his heroic actions.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

Yes it is.

No it isn’t.

And just like I told Azoo, if you don’t like someone making a counterpoint, then be careful what examples you use. Static characters can have depth to them.

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

Since you guys get distracted when the arguments get too complex, let's keep it simple: Sonic should be more like he is in the games. They can pay the games lipservice by jamming iconography in all they want, but as long as they misunderstand the core of the characters there will always be fans alienated by the films.

Which is funny, because a lot of fans outside of these forums don’t seem to be all that alienated.

Every incarnation of Sonic has had some difference that leads to this “alienation” to the where they’re always making some complaint that it isn’t like the games, despite the fact that these differences made to set them apart (for better or worse, again I could not careless what one feels over it) to tell their own story.

You may not like them all, but there is more than one way to portray Sonic.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, batson said:

The game version of Sonic is, in terms of personality, defined by his confidence and independence more than anything else, while the movie version is at least in the first movie defined by his need to gain confidence that he doesn't have

But they can really only do this plot once, right? Sonic gained his confidence and became a hero in movie 1. It stands to reason that being a confident hero will be his default state in movies 2 and 3.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not wild about certain aspects of movie Sonic. He's still a lot more dependent on his parental figures than I think this character should be. Honestly, despite Sonic's stated age of 15 in the games, he always came across like an adult who didn't have to answer to anybody; He lives on his own, travels the world, and does everything on his own terms.

Movie Sonic is probably the first Sonic that actually acts his age, and it's weirdly disorienting.

[Diogenes]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

But they can really only do this plot once, right? Sonic gained his confidence and became a hero in movie 1. It stands to reason that being a confident hero will be his default state in movies 2 and 3.

Sonic's arc in this movie seems to be accepting that he's still a kid and (at least some of) his confidence is misplaced. It doesn't feel very Sonicy.

[Kuzu]

While its definitely not "Sonicy" it does fall in line with this version's character arc.

Sonic found a family and mostly has his powers figured out, so now he's eager to use his powers and prove himself a hero, but needs to learn when to act as opposed to constantly jumping at any chance to play the hero.

So I'd imagine the next film is the climax of this arc when he has to confront Shadow, someone with similar abilities but  with a (probably) much more mature attitude about using them.

[azoo]

52 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

No it isn’t.

And just like I told Azoo, if you don’t like someone making a counterpoint, then be careful what examples you use.

It’d be easier to conversate with you without talking like you’re on a high horse, mate. Peeling apart the exact wording of a sentence and then pretending you have an upper hand in the conversation because you didn’t consider it valid isn’t the win you think it is. 

52 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Which is funny, because a lot of fans outside of these forums don’t seem to be all that alienated.

Most fans who don’t like these films (or people in general, hell, look at the reception to critics here) get pushed out of the equation by fans loudly acting like it’s the hypest shit on Earth and decrying any criticism the films receive. Forcing naysayers to just say “it’s not for me” as if they were never set to care for a Sonic film in the first place (a lie).

And most who try to fight it just get burnt out, so the people left are folks acting like they’re in paradise because of miniscule fan nods, or just bored parents with low expectations walking out and going “well that was Fun For The Whole Family”.
 

52 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Every incarnation of Sonic has had some difference that leads to this “alienation” to the where they’re always making some complaint that it isn’t like the games, despite the fact that these differences made to set them apart (for better or worse, again I could not careless what one feels over it) to tell their own story.

You may not like them all, but there is more than one way to portray Sonic.

Just because other continuities have done it doesn’t mean we had to like it or think it was a good idea.

But even then, I’d hardly call this Sonic “some difference”. AoSTH, X, OVA, and StC fit that descriptor, but despite their oddities and whatever lore- and personality-wise, they’re still pretty close in proximity to games Sonic. SatAM/Archie Sonic was maybe the most controversial amongst the fanbase for a Sonic that actively supported a monarchy, has a history of breaking hearts, and lounged around a recurring home all the time, but even that keeps the confidence, headstrong attitude, celebrity status and cool composure.

This, though? A total departure, with seemingly no intent to remedy that. As Dio says above, even after the “arc” of the first film, Sonic remains a character with reliance on his parents and a misplaced sense of confidence that is not challenged enough to change it. You could argue “oh they’re building up to it in the next movie” but that’s what we said last time. It just highlights a problem with modern film and cinematic universes, where we’re strung along on skin-deep storytelling under the promise to get the satisfying characters and scenarios we want in the NEXT film. And endless buffet of sequelbaiting.

And for what? More of the same? Only to be told “they’re getting there” for the next three movies? That’s dumb.

Anyways this Sonic doesn’t resemble the Sonic I grew to love in the slightest. Seeing others slowly come out of the woodwork here and band together about it tells me it’s just a matter of time before people in general become more willing to say it. lol

[Dr. Mechano]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So I'd imagine the next film is the climax of this arc when he has to confront Shadow, someone with similar abilities but  with a (probably) much more mature attitude about using them.

I mean, if he's anything like game Shadow in his debut, his "much more mature" attitude is to use his powers to destroy the world.

[Kuzu]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, if he's anything like game Shadow in his debut, his "much more mature" attitude is to use his powers to destroy the world.

Knuckles is doing the same thing here and now he's a friend, Shadow will be fine.

[Dr. Mechano]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Knuckles is doing the same thing here and now he's a friend, Shadow will be fine.

Wait, Knuckles wants to destroy the world?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

57 minutes ago, azoo said:

It’d be easier to conversate with you without talking like you’re on a high horse, mate. Peeling apart the exact wording of a sentence and then pretending you have an upper hand in the conversation because you didn’t consider it valid isn’t the win you think it is. 

First of all, this isn’t a competition. No one’s trying to “win” anything, so you can miss me with this trying to get the upper hand nonsense. You made a point about a static character not being deep and I’m made a counterpoint that “depth” and a “Static character” are not opposed and that such a character very much can have depth. If calling that out irritates you, I really don’t know what to say.

57 minutes ago, azoo said:

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Just because other continuities have done it doesn’t mean we had to like it or think it was a good idea.

Then don’t. No one’s forcing you.

I didn’t like what they were doing with Boom, but rather than complain about it, I simply didn’t bother with it over other continuities I liked that had my attention. You be far better off doing yourself a favor and finding one you do like instead.

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I didn’t like what they were doing with Boom, but rather than complain about it, I simply didn’t bother with it over other continuities I liked that had my attention.

That said, it wouldn't have been wrong if you had complained about it.

Not liking things, even vocally so, is fine. Lord knows I've complained about SatAM Robotnik not being enough like his game counterpart, so I don't see anything wrong with azoo complaining about movie Sonic or you complaining about the Boom iterations of the characters. Negative opinions are still discussion, and all that.

It sounds weird, but sometimes criticizing parts of a franchise you otherwise like can be kind of fun. Like when I was clowning on Forces a bunch five years ago, or games like 06/Shadow before that.

[azoo]

19 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

First of all, this isn’t a competition. No one’s trying to “win” anything, so you can miss me with this trying to get the upper hand nonsense. You made a point about a static character not being deep and I’m made a counterpoint that “depth” and a “Static character” are not opposed and that such a character very much can have depth. If calling that out irritates you, I really don’t know what to say.

It wasn’t you pointing out that a static and deep character can be one and the same that was the problem. It was that you acted like this was a “gotcha” that invalidated me or other people’s stance.

19 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Then don’t. No one’s forcing you.

I didn’t like what they were doing with Boom, but rather than complain about it, I simply didn’t bother with it over other continuities I liked that had my attention. You be far better off doing yourself a favor and finding one you do like instead.

Ah, so we’ve resorted to “don’t like it then leave”. As if any of us would still be using this forum if we all abided to that! lmao

But yeah Mechano’s right, it’s still valid. It’s the other half of a discussion (and it’s cathartic to get it out too). You can’t just sit there and say “idk no one I know really complains about this”, see someone that does, tell them to buzz off, and then go back to saying that. You’re just kinda proving my point that naysayers are chased off!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, azoo said:

It wasn’t you pointing out that a static and deep character can be one and the same that was the problem. It was that you acted like this was a “gotcha” that invalidated me or other people’s stance.

That’s sounds more like something you wanted it to be to get offended over. Your stance isn’t invalidated—you don’t like the changes, while others are fine with it.

2 hours ago, azoo said:

Ah, so we’ve resorted to “don’t like it then leave”. As if any of us would still be using this forum if we all abided to that lmao

More like “don’t bother with something you don’t like.”

It’s done me wonders and saved me plenty of energy when it came to topics I’m not interested in (like Boom). It would certainly help others if they did it as well.

 

[azoo]

The only way you can “not bother” with something this big is to remove yourself from the community as a whole. You can push some low ball tv show or comic or whatever to the side because the public can pass it by like it’s nothing. A multimillion dollar film franchise in the mouths of everyone who knows what a Sonic is, not so much. 

[Kuzu]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Wait, Knuckles wants to destroy the world?

That's what he said in the trailer. Yea, I thought it was weird too.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

That's what he said in the trailer. Yea, I thought it was weird too.

Wild.

Would legit be hilarious if they mixed the characters up and movie Shadow was just a manipulated good guy instead of an outright villain then.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, azoo said:

The only way you can “not bother” with something this big is to remove yourself from the community as a whole. You can push some low ball tv show or comic or whatever to the side because the public can pass it by like it’s nothing. A multimillion dollar film franchise in the mouths of everyone who knows what a Sonic is, not so much. 

This much I agree with. The film is a much bigger property than any other alternative media to date.

So for better or worse, this is what is going to define Sonic's identity to quite a few people for a while.

[DaBigJ]

And I am a-okay with that. Game Sonic is an annoying little twit, and if Movie Sonic, the Sonic with a personality I tolerate, will be seen as Sonic's identity for a while, then so be it.

I'm expecting a lot of disagreements so I'll just say that I am in no way able to defend this claim without coming off as biased, sorry about that.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Wild.

Would legit be hilarious if they mixed the characters up and movie Shadow was just a manipulated good guy instead of an outright villain then.

Given that Knuckles is a full on ally by the end, even playing baseball with the group, think we'll get an explanation.

I am thinking they might soften Shadow, if only a little. But fuck that, I want homie to style on Sonic so badly. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 minutes ago, azoo said:

The only way you can “not bother” with something this big is to remove yourself from the community as a whole. You can push some low ball tv show or comic or whatever to the side because the public can pass it by like it’s nothing. A multimillion dollar film franchise in the mouths of everyone who knows what a Sonic is, not so much. 

Dude, it’s not a binary.

The Movie isn’t the only thing Sonic out there, and just because you don’t like what it offers doesn’t mean you have to remove yourself from the whole community. 

You don’t enjoy it? That’s fine. You don’t have to abandon Sonic entirely just because of that. It may be the biggest thing now, but something else down the line will come and replace it in the next generation.

[DaBigJ]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Given that Knuckles is a full on ally by the end, even playing baseball with the group, think we'll get an explanation.

I am thinking they might soften Shadow, if only a little. But fuck that, I want homie to style on Sonic so badly. 

Let Shadow say damn. Just once. 

Let him dropkick Sonic too. I'd pay for just two hours of that alone.

[Rabid-Coot]

1 hour ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

Let Shadow say damn. Just once. 

If they go PG-13 he can have the one use of fuck thats allowed.

[Jango]

Idk guys, the only ever consistent trait of personality that was kept in all medias is that Sonic is a good guy and blue. Kuzu made a list of personas Sonic has been over the years, it all depends on who's writing/directing it, the movie is no different. Classic Sonic in CD and Generations are supposed to be the same, but they act completely different. I'll make one better: Tails in SA1 and Forces.

Let's be honest, Sonic is whatever the fuck the people making the product want. I'm over this.

[Tenko]

Random question for anyone that has seen the film too and can discuss..

Spoiler

Who were the people that came through the dimensional ring before Knuckles on the Mushroom Planet? Knuckles mentions he's the last of his kind, the rest were somehow wiped out during the fight with Longclaw (another weird unexplained moment too). So who were those other masked, tribal looking people that came through the ring with human like proportions?