Has Sonic the Hedgehog become stagnant?

[Kuzu]

I have no problem if your primary engagement with Sonic is the characters above anything else. That's fine. 

But your assertion that Sega actually making a proper 3D follow up to Sonic 3, with a foundation primarily built around how Sonic himself plays is somehow not an evolution for the series is just baffling to me.

Especially when yours and most fan's idea of evolution is simply tacking on other disparate gameplay styles and simply doubling the roster of characters. I can accept that most Sonic fans in their 20 somethings or late teens primarily love the more theatrical and story focus of the Adventure games, but I don't see how a new game that actually builds on the series foundation is taking away from that?

 

This is the false dichotomy that Wraith was speaking about that Sonic fans have gaslighted themselves into believing; that having a Classic styled game somehow has to come the expense of "the Adventure style" when that has never been the case.

There's literally nothing that is preventing Sega from creating an arcade style 3D platformer with all of the over the top Anime tropes that Sonic fans love. Sega could literally make that game, it doesn't have to be one or the other and it's shortsighted to think that way.

This "Classic fans vs. Adventure fans" narrative that continues to persist is stupid and completely glosses over the actual problems of this series.

[___-_]

1 hour ago, Ricochet said:

I dunno how SEGA thought dialogue cutscenes with the clunkiest timing ever were the next step forward to the cool scripted events played in background on classic sonic games, or the jump panel plates were a good idea either.

It's like if a CEO peered over what was all the rage on the gaming industry and handed over a checklist of features to the devteam.

Why would dialogue cutscenes not be the logical next step? Of course it's easy to say that was clunky now in 2022, but put it into perspective what the grand majority of the competition were looking like back then when SA first released. Seriously. Look at this @ 13:25 - onward:

THIS shit was cutting edge back then, my guy. Most games looked liked this before and even a little after SA came out where the facial expressions were mere textures. You'd be lucky to have a character model actually blinking and opening their mouths back in the late 90's. Crash bandicoot is probably the rarest exception where it actually looked good (And they had to sperate a model's head alone in order for the tech to even work), and that took fucking Naughty Dog, probably the leading animators during that time period =P.

If anything, SA's "clunky cutscenes" were paving the way for other games. And by SA2, it was a dramatic improvement considering the time period.

[knuckles20]

53 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I have no problem if your primary engagement with Sonic is the characters above anything else. That's fine. 

But your assertion that Sega actually making a proper 3D follow up to Sonic 3, with a foundation primarily built around how Sonic himself plays is somehow not an evolution for the series is just baffling to me.

Especially when yours and most fan's idea of evolution is simply tacking on other disparate gameplay styles and simply doubling the roster of characters. I can accept that most Sonic fans in their 20 somethings or late teens primarily love the more theatrical and story focus of the Adventure games, but I don't see how a new game that actually builds on the series foundation is taking away from that?

You got all of that from "I want the 3D games to knock it off with the 2D sections"?

They've had many years to figure out Sonic, and I feel that the grace period should've ended with Generations. But here we are in 2022 with fans playing that now decade old excuse of "get Sonic right first" and I've lost any patience with that.

Given the Classic/Modern timeline split I figured a Modern Sonic style 3D game would attempt to establish its own identity as opposed finding someway to make some callback to the classic era. I dunno I guess I'm just so tired of "Only Classic games are good, we need to going back to Sonic's roots" mentality that's taken over the franchise that I want something that isn't reliant on it.

If it's any consideration I took a peek at some fan games like GT, Project 06, Adventure Chronicles that display what I do want out of the Modern games. Yeah the fan games are mostly tech demos but from what I've seen those projects are based on the 2000s era games but the people behind them put in the time to refine those formulas that didn't require 2D sections or trying so hard to appeal to the Classic crowd. 

[Zadent]

38 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I have no problem if your primary engagement with Sonic is the characters above anything else. That's fine. 

But your assertion that Sega actually making a proper 3D follow up to Sonic 3, with a foundation primarily built around how Sonic himself plays is somehow not an evolution for the series is just baffling to me.

Especially when yours and most fan's idea of evolution is simply tacking on other disparate gameplay styles and simply doubling the roster of characters. I can accept that most Sonic fans in their 20 somethings or late teens primarily love the more theatrical and story focus of the Adventure games, but I don't see how a new game that actually builds on the series foundation is taking away from that?

 

This is the false dichotomy that Wraith was speaking about that Sonic fans have gaslighted themselves into believing; that having a Classic styled game somehow has to come the expense of "the Adventure style" when that has never been the case.

There's literally nothing that is preventing Sega from creating an arcade style 3D platformer with all of the over the top Anime tropes that Sonic fans love. Sega could literally make that game, it doesn't have to be one or the other and it's shortsighted to think that way.

This "Classic fans vs. Adventure fans" narrative that continues to persist is stupid and completely glosses over the actual problems of this series.

It’s possible that some of it is a confusion of terms. When people talk about the roots of Sonic, or Classic, there comes across this idea that people want, well, how 1-3 and Mania were. And some of that could simply be due to Classic Sonic being..well, the classic in gameplay. So when people hear talk of that, the interpretation can be “they want a sidescroller game,” because that’s an element, the physics, the multiple paths and “speed as a reward.”

 So when you say you want “a 3D follow up to Sonic 3,” what do you mean? Basically how Classic stages looked in Forces/Generation, but with better physics and level design? Do you mean like how the Adventure or Boost games were in the movement? What is “arcade style” (this one mostly for my benefit)? Because those Adventure fans you speak of are likely fans of more than just the story or the “over the top Anime tropes”, but also that movement in gameplay, which could factor into some resistance to the Classic.

Iirc, Games around the adventure-06 era had been called the dark ages enough and pointed to as part of the decline that, yeah, people are probably more defensive of it

[Zoomzeta]

1 hour ago, Zadent said:

It’s possible that some of it is a confusion of terms. When people talk about the roots of Sonic, or Classic, there comes across this idea that people want, well, how 1-3 and Mania were. And some of that could simply be due to Classic Sonic being..well, the classic in gameplay. So when people hear talk of that, the interpretation can be “they want a sidescroller game,” because that’s an element, the physics, the multiple paths and “speed as a reward.”

 So when you say you want “a 3D follow up to Sonic 3,” what do you mean? Basically how Classic stages looked in Forces/Generation, but with better physics and level design? Do you mean like how the Adventure or Boost games were in the movement? What is “arcade style” (this one mostly for my benefit)? Because those Adventure fans you speak of are likely fans of more than just the story or the “over the top Anime tropes”, but also that movement in gameplay, which could factor into some resistance to the Classic.

Iirc, Games around the adventure-06 era had been called the dark ages enough and pointed to as part of the decline that, yeah, people are probably more defensive of it

I'm not. I enjoyed several games from that period of time, but I'm not going act as if they were perfect. 

To be clear, it is hard for me to ask what I want of this franchise at this point, as it's 3D outing have gone several disparaging directions with pros and cons of their own. 

So right now, I'm just waiting for more info on Frontiers to come out and see how that turns out. Cause I'm going to be honest, this franchise has hit too many brick walls for me to count. They have reached the point where they could do anything and I would be indifferent to it, unless it actually catches my attention. 

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, StriCNYN3 said:

THIS shit was cutting edge back then, my guy. Most games looked liked this before and even a little after SA came out where the facial expressions were mere textures. You'd be lucky to have a character model actually blinking and opening their mouths back in the late 90's.

I was referring to the "timing". When your character suddenly stops in motion and becomes unresponsive, due to a triggered event cutscene.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

You got all of that from "I want the 3D games to knock it off with the 2D sections"?

They've had many years to figure out Sonic, and I feel that the grace period should've ended with Generations. But here we are in 2022 with fans playing that now decade old excuse of "get Sonic right first" and I've lost any patience with that.

Given the Classic/Modern timeline split I figured a Modern Sonic style 3D game would attempt to establish its own identity as opposed finding someway to make some callback to the classic era. I dunno I guess I'm just so tired of "Only Classic games are good, we need to going back to Sonic's roots" mentality that's taken over the franchise that I want something that isn't reliant on it.

If it's any consideration I took a peek at some fan games like GT, Project 06, Adventure Chronicles that display what I do want out of the Modern games. Yeah the fan games are mostly tech demos but from what I've seen those projects are based on the 2000s era games but the people behind them put in the time to refine those formulas that didn't require 2D sections or trying so hard to appeal to the Classic crowd. 

You have an extremely poor understanding of "Classic style" if your entire understanding of them is just "2D and Green Hill Zone" and your idea of evolution is...moving as far away from that as possible. All of the games from the 2000's had just as bad, if not worse reception than the ones from the 2010's. The primary reason Sonic fans like yourself are so fond of those games is because they're the ones that introduced you to the series and where you bond began. I get that. But "ambition and passion" doesn't make good games. Those games are special to me too, Sonic Adventure 2 was my first real game I bought. But the difference is, I can separate my emotional attachment to those games and look at them with a critical eye, and I don't think that's something you and many other fans are able to do. 

Just sit down for about five minutes and really THINK about why the 2000's games were as divisive as they were, why people constantly praise the Classic games, and why the 2010 games are not and never have been this "return to form" that you think they are. The 2010's are a pale imitation of what people THINK the classic era was like and have next to nothing in common with it beyond a purely superficial level.

I will agree with you that yes, we need to move on from the 2010's into a new style that truly evolves the series. Throwing in more characters, and not having any references to Green Hill Zone or 2D levels isn't the quick fix that you think it is though. It's a superficial fix that will only satisfy the vocal subset of Adventure fans crying on Twitter and Reddit because Sonic said "Baldy McNosehair".....and not the fact the games just aren't very well made and are only good on a superficial level. 

 

2 hours ago, Zadent said:

 It’s possible that some of it is a confusion of terms. When people talk about the roots of Sonic, or Classic, there comes across this idea that people want, well, how 1-3 and Mania were. And some of that could simply be due to Classic Sonic being..well, the classic in gameplay. So when people hear talk of that, the interpretation can be “they want a sidescroller game,” because that’s an element, the physics, the multiple paths and “speed as a reward.”

So when you say you want “a 3D follow up to Sonic 3,” what do you mean? Basically how Classic stages looked in Forces/Generation, but with better physics and level design? Do you mean like how the Adventure or Boost games were in the movement? What is “arcade style” (this one mostly for my benefit)? Because those Adventure fans you speak of are likely fans of more than just the story or the “over the top Anime tropes”, but also that movement in gameplay, which could factor into some resistance to the Classic.

Iirc, Games around the adventure-06 era had been called the dark ages enough and pointed to as part of the decline that, yeah, people are probably more defensive of it

I agree and its definitely the result of Sonic Team producing shallow imitations of what Classic Sonic actually is. It doesn't help that there is a Classic/Modern split right now, which only reinforces that interpretation and it's one of the many reasons I hate that they've decided to market them as different incarnations. 

But no, Classic style means more than just "Chubby Sonic, 2D and Green Hill Zone". It's the gameplay philosophy too. Using your momentum to gain your speed, and having an understanding of the level layout to get said speed. Boost games are as far removed from that philosophy as possible, as they're more rhythm based games that rely on player reaction to obstacles and momentum is non-existent. The Boost games are more about watching Sonic go fast and guiding him to the finish goal as opposed to actually controlling him and dictating where he can go. The Boost games are spectator games. Note, this is NOT saying they are bad games. I've had plenty of fun mastering Unleashed and playing Rush through the years. But you cannot call those games a true evolution of the Classic style. The games have basically become a glorified endless run game, games that are only fun in short bursts and not really something you can structure full game from. And we know that because Sonic Team always tack on some type of gimmick in the Boost games. They even admitted it when pressed on why the Werehog to Unleashed to begin with. It wasn't to add variety or whatever, it was to pad the game out so that it wasn't over in a few hours. 

Sonic Adventure 1 is the closest they ever got to bringing the philosophy of the 2D games into 3D, and they all but abandoned it in its sequel and decided to double down on the spectacle and automation, which would eventually result in the Boost games. And that's on top of further diluting the games with shit like Fishing, Treasure Hunting and Mech Shooting.  It doesn't surprise me at all that Sonic fans have such different ideas on what a Sonic game is, because almost every 3D game has failed to define it.  Almost every 3D game has just been a slapdash of ideas that have been done better in other franchises. But because Sonic Team have been doing that for so long at this point, most people genuinely believe that's what Sonic is supposed to be. A hodgepodge of a mess of a ideas with no cohesiveness to them. I wouldn't be shocked if that's what Sonic Team think Sonic is now themselves. 

 

 

 

[___-_]

Hmm coulda sworn you was referring to the characters just talking in general being a mis step @Ricochet. Especially when you said this:

2 hours ago, StriCNYN3 said:

It's like if a CEO peered over what was all the rage on the gaming industry and handed over a checklist of features to the devteam.

 And not just the little load times preparing for the cutscenes...? uhhh I'm confused =P. 

[Zadent]

22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I agree and its definitely the result of Sonic Team producing shallow imitations of what Classic Sonic actually is. It doesn't help that there is a Classic/Modern split right now, which only reinforces that interpretation and it's one of the many reasons I hate that they've decided to market them as different incarnations. 

But no, Classic style means more than just "Chubby Sonic, 2D and Green Hill Zone". It's the gameplay philosophy too. Using your momentum to gain your speed, and having an understanding of the level layout to get said speed. Boost games are as far removed from that philosophy as possible, as they're more rhythm based games that rely on player reaction to obstacles and momentum is non-existent. The Boost games are more about watching Sonic go fast and guiding him to the finish goal as opposed to actually controlling him and dictating where he can go. The Boost games are spectator games. Note, this is NOT saying they are bad games. I've had plenty of fun mastering Unleashed and playing Rush through the years. But you cannot call those games a true evolution of the Classic style. The games have basically become a glorified endless run game, games that are only fun in short bursts and not really something you can structure full game from. And we know that because Sonic Team always tack on some type of gimmick in the Boost games. They even admitted it when pressed on why the Werehog to Unleashed to begin with. It wasn't to add variety or whatever, it was to pad the game out so that it wasn't over in a few hours. 

Sonic Adventure 1 is the closest they ever got to bringing the philosophy of the 2D games into 3D, and they all but abandoned it in its sequel and decided to double down on the spectacle and automation, which would eventually result in the Boost games. And that's on top of further diluting the games with shit like Fishing, Treasure Hunting and Mech Shooting.  It doesn't surprise me at all that Sonic fans have such different ideas on what a Sonic game is, because almost every 3D game has failed to define it.  Almost every 3D game has just been a slapdash of ideas that have been done better in other franchises. But because Sonic Team have been doing that for so long at this point, most people genuinely believe that's what Sonic is supposed to be. A hodgepodge of a mess of a ideas with no cohesiveness to them. I wouldn't be shocked if that's what Sonic Team think Sonic is now themselves.

And this was why I felt it fitting to ask so I knew where things were coming from.

and yeah, for a time, I’d agree it feels…stagnant? Complacent? Idk if I agree on that being since the adventure stuff (I think, personally, I end up enjoying pulling off the speed feeling in SA2 or Shadow the Hedgehog a bit more, but I’m still getting the hang of the classics as it had been a suuuuper long time since I played them). But I would be lying if I said I didn’t want them to revisit 3D adventure platforming. 

That said..I admittedly never got to play Adventure 1, so I’ll take your word. Most of what I’ve seen always seemed to involve spamming spindash which..didn’t look fun, but I’d probably appreciate it more if I got to play it.

[knuckles20]

@Kuzu The fact that you have resorted to the very disrespectful "you only like those games because of nostalgia" argument, should even bother with you any more?

What makes you think I've haven't heard everything insult under the sun about the 2000s era games and how apparently the games that came after are better under in every conceivable way. Despite this, none of it has made me discard my preferences as I still get more enjoyment "divisive" games than I ever did from anything since Colors. You consider the 2010s era of games a pale imitation of the Classic era, but misguided or not those titles still made some attempt to appeal to the Classic crowd, which is way more than Adventure fans had got from that period. 

I still view the 2000s era of game as good fun titles and want elements from those games to return in a refined form. Your derogatory, dismissive views of fans desire that isn't deeply rooted from the Classic era won't change that.

[Kuzu]

If you all you care about is having your preferences catered to, then there's really nothing else to talk about.

We'll probably eventually get a half assed Sonic Adventure sequel somewhere this decade that fails to really do anything unique but you will praise it anyway cuz it has butt rock and 10 playable characters I guess.

[knuckles20]

I've tried many times to explain to you why I want a return Adventure style games, why the 2010s or Classic style don’t do it for me and I feel that I done so in a way that don't insult fans that do prefer those games. But you have been nothing but disparaging and intolerant at every attempt so good job solidifying the dumb "Classic vs Adventure" narrative.

[Kuzu]

Look, I apologize if I am coming off as kind of aggressive and dismissive of you, but its kind of vexing for me personally to see how fans are fine with most of the stuff this series puts out when most of it barely gets any attention from anyone outside that immediate demographic, but then actual suggestions that could potentially push the series forward are shrugged off.

So I dunno, maybe I'm just over this series now. It hasn't really appealed to me in years outside of Mania and a some of the side material, and Sonic Team have only ever been interested in appealing to fans in the most shallow ways possible as opposed to actually addressing the fundamental problems of the games.

I'll probably just stick with the movies and comics from now on, at least I don't have play these games if I do that.

 

[batson]

Considering how experimental the series has been in terms of gameplay over the last 12 years, with everything from Colors to Lost World to Rise of Lyric being thrown our way, I'm not sure one can really call the series stagnant. It's just that most of these experiments have failed. I think the idea of the series having taken a "play it safe" approach during that period mostly comes from the fact that the series has mostly been extremely bland in terms of story and tone, and also in terms of pandering to nostalgia for the classics. The "bad and pretentious" storylines was something that the series got so much flack for during the 00's that that seems to be the aspect that these modern games have really gone out of their way to avoid. Atleast untill Forces that played it's story straight and featured tons of characters, but then of course that was all executed so badly that everyone was disapointed anyway.

I'd put it this way; during this period the Sonic video game series has been rather bold in terms of gameplay (usually with poor results, but still) but the fictional Sonic universe has felt pretty much dead, like a zombie. Something that keeps repeating a sort of bare minimum of what it used to do back when it still had life, but which is unable to create anything original.

[Multikaris]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:37 PM, pppp said:

Honestly at this point I'll take another 06 over a "good" game like Forces. If the franchise at this point can only either wow me with its stupidity or bore me to death with its complete creative bankrupcy, then I'll take the former, at least I can laugh at 06.

The last game that could wow people that way was Sonic Colors Ultimate… which is a port.