What was life actually like under the Eggman Empire?

[Sean]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

The fact that his empire in Forces shows signs of still having money and an economy - notably that he built a big ol' casino after conquering the world  - makes me think that surely some organic citizens would still live and work under his rule in some capacity.

My point being that he can still accomplish this by stripping away everyone's free will and turning them into his mindless slaves, which is what SatAM Robotnik was doing as well. Eggman has shown no instance of caring about others' free will, he just wants to be worshipped - even if said worship comes from non-sentient slave drones. He absolutely wants a society built and run by his own robot armies.

[Dr. Mechano]

 

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He would have destroyed the entire earth in SA2 had it not been for Gerald's programming hijacking the ARK.

 

Hm. I think you're mistaken about his intentions when he tried to fire the Eclipse Cannon.

He threatens the president by saying "Otherwise your country will cease to exist." Eggman wanted to rule the world, and if he'd completely destroyed it, he'd have nothing left to rule over. Nothing to come back to, either.

I think Eggman could have been simply focusing the cannon on the United Federation. Blow up the president's country to make an example out of it, then have everyone else surrender to him, you know?

He ultimately didn't want the world completely destroyed - and if cooperating with the heroes was just to save his own life, then he could've easily escaped into space to go live on Little Planet or Planet Wisp or something. There are other habitable worlds in the Sonic universe, and Eggman did have the means to leave the ARK, since he immediately rescued Shadow in space afterward. So it's clear Eggman could have just peaced out and let everyone else die if he wanted.

I mean, letting the ARK crash into Earth would effectively be the same end-result as blasting the planet with a fully-charged Eclipse Cannon, right? Yet he still fought to save it, because clearly Eggman doesn't want the entire world destroyed. He wants something left to rule over.

Intentionally destroying the entire Earth is incongruous with Eggman's stated goals throughout the series. If that's what he was trying to do, it doesn't make a ton of sense.

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

My point being that he can still accomplish this by stripping away everyone's free will and turning them into his mindless slaves, which is what SatAM Robotnik was doing as well. Eggman has shown no instance of caring about others' free will, he just wants to be worshipped - even if said worship comes from non-sentient slave drones. He absolutely wants a society built and run by his own robot armies.

Maybe, but both SatAM Robotnik and Sega Eggman still programmed their own robots with personalities and some degree of autonomy. Cluck and the robot musicians weren't mindless. Even the Swatbots are shown to break into laughter when Snively gets hurt, so I think ol' Julian intended for his robots to be thinking individuals. They might be pre-set to be ultimately loyal to him, but they still have their own personal likes, dislikes, and personalities. I think it's easy to gloss over and forget, since we don't see much of this Robotnik's original creations and so much focus is given to the victims of roboticization, which are reduced to incredibly simple, nearly-mindless automatons.

With Eggman, I suppose the same could apply. He intentionally gives his robots quirks and personalities too, even if they're pre-programmed to be loyal to him... something that often fails, given how many times he's been betrayed, granted. Still, I think - hypothetically - even if he killed or roboticized or imprisoned or otherwise got rid of every organic person on the planet (which I'm not convinced game Eggman even wants to do in the first place, but let's entertain the thought), his empire would still have "people" in the form of his creations, who'd still have personalities beyond being mere mindless drones, just as they already do in the current games.

[Tornado]

If you applied Eggman's thought processes and Putin's current in real life right now thought processes to a Venn diagram you'd end up with a single fucking circle.

 

Eggman blew up the moon. Eggman made blowing up the moon a worldwide public threat for what anyone going against him would suffer from. Nothing about his actions in the game towards the end suggested that he was ever bluffing about it; even you want to split the thinnest of hairs that his plans were merely "continental genocide" instead of "planetary genocide." That's his actions over the course of a single game. He's always been a cartoonish pastiche of a crackpot dictator; a Bond villain who stole nuclear weapons and was extorting something from the world governments. The main point of contention Eggman probably had with Gerald blowing up the planet by dropping the Ark on Earth and Robotnik blowing up the planet with the Eclipse Cannon is that Eggman was on the Ark at the time.

[Sean]

Eggman's motivations for helping Sonic in SA2 are vague (and frankly poorly-explored, imo) so it's just as easy to assume he did so because he didn't want to die aboard the ARK as it is to assume he wanted a planet to rule over.

And whether or not Eggman's robots have personalities isn't the exact point I was trying to make. I just don't think whether or not his slaves have personalities AT ALL matters to him as much as you make it out to be. Which goes back to my original point - Robotnik and Eggman aren't that different in their actions, motivations, goals, and destructiveness. Programming a few personality quirks into his robots doesn't change the fact that they both want everyone on the planet to be 100% subservient to them with no chance of dissent. They will do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal, even if it involves outright slavery and planetary genocide.

[Dr. Mechano]

Yeah, but like... why didn't he just escape the ARK instead of saving the world?

We know that he could have done this, since he flew out into space to rescue Shadow right after the final battle in SA2. Eggman had some kind of space transport that he could have fled the ARK with. That's how he rescued Shadow.

If Eggman left and just allowed the ARK to smash into the Earth, he could've destroyed the world, which - if he wanted to do that anyway - would have been the sensible thing to do, yeah?

[Sean]

You see any other interstellar base of operations in SA2 besides the ARK? I'm sure if Eggman still had the Death Egg or the Wisp planets from Colors he would have easily retreated there. Or maybe the writers didn't think about that and just wanted a gameplay reason for Eggman and Sonic's friends to team up, which is the theory I subscribe to.

[Tornado]

Why doesn't he just shoot Sonic in the face with an actual gun. Why doesn't he just join the Republican party and run for President, elect a bunch of Supreme Court judges and effectively take ideologically control over the country even after leaving office. Why doesn't he just use his amazing self-purported intellect and effectively limitless material resources to be videogame Elon Musk.

[Dr. Mechano]

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Why doesn't he just shoot Sonic in the face with an actual gun.

He's tried! I mean, they're laser beams, but he's still used plenty of guns over the years. Sonic's just too fast.

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Why doesn't he join the Republican party and just run for President, elect a bunch of Supreme Court judges and effectively take control over the country even after leaving office.

I don't think Eggman has any sort of coherent political ideology beyond "I want to be in charge of everything."

But you know, he still needs an "everything" to exist to be in charge of, is all I'm saying.

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You see any other interstellar base of operations in SA2 besides the ARK?

No. But think about this.

Let's say the Eclipse Cannon worked. Eggman just blew up the world.

Okay, where does he go now?

My point is that escaping the ARK and letting it crash or successfully blowing up the planet with the Eclipse Cannon are the same thing. Both have the same end result: Earth is gone, and with it, any chance of Eggman conquering the planet.

[Sean]

I'm going to double back a little to my original statement that SatAM is a near-accurate representation of Eggman's own actions and goals in the games. Robotnik in the show still cares about having functional societies if his conversion of Mobotropolis to his own robotic city is any indication. It can be safely assumed that his own robots live and work in the various buildings you see surrounding his palace. There's also the matter that the planet is, well, still intact and not blown up into itty bitty pieces. SatAM Robotnik doesn't just destroy, destroy, destroy without purpose, he's reforming Mobius into his own image and specific rule, just like Eggman wants to do in the games. In fact the state of Mobius in the show's present day is more or less identical to the Little Planet's destruction in CD's bad futures.

I just don't really see much of a meaningful, functional difference between the two. Robotnik may be an incredibly boring, 1-dimensional villain but beyond aesthetics he's not at all different from Eggman, and there's no reason to believe the two have wildly different moral compasses. Which goes back to what I was originally saying that SatAM is a pretty good representation of what earth would be like if Eggman takes permanent control of it.

  

11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

No. But think about this.

Let's say the Eclipse Cannon worked. Eggman just blew up the world.

Okay, where does he go now?

My point is that escaping the ARK and letting it crash or successfully blowing up the planet with the Eclipse Cannon are the same thing. Both have the same end result: Earth is gone, and with it, any chance of Eggman conquering the planet.

You're assuming Eggman - and in fact most villains - actually would think this far ahead. This is the same guy who summons ancient beasts to do his bidding without contingency plans in case something goes wrong. He summoned Dark Gaia, a being responsible for the destruction and rebirth of the planet, for his own amusement park. Do you actually think Eggman has really thought ANYTHING out here?

[WanderingBleats]

With regard to SA2, I think it's highly unlikely that the writers intended Eggman to be okay with the destruction of the planet. The whole sentimental scene at the end of the game with Tails was clearly meant to indicate that it was a bridge too far for Eggman, and he wasn't just upset about possibly dying himself. Like, it's just... not written that way.

All that said, to be perfectly honest there's just flat out not enough information to come to any conclusion about game Eggman's desires for a world under his rule. And even if there were, it wouldn't matter, because characterization varies wildly from game to game. You can argue he wants literal mindless slaves to sing his praises. Or you can argue that he wouldn't be satisfied with that and wants free-willed people to rule over. Eggman has never gone into detail about the kind of world he wants to rule, and the one time he pulled it off, we didn't get to see any of it. It's not a question Sega is interested in exploring, so any answer will inevitably be colored by headcanons about who Eggman is.

[Dr. Mechano]

11 minutes ago, Sean said:

This is the same guy who summons ancient beasts to do his bidding without contingency plans in case something goes wrong. He summoned Dark Gaia, a being responsible for the destruction and rebirth of the planet, for his own amusement park. Do you actually think Eggman has really thought ANYTHING out here?

Well...

...Okay, yeah.

That's fair, actually.

[Sean]

5 minutes ago, WanderingBleats said:

With regard to SA2, I think it's highly unlikely that the writers intended Eggman to be okay with the destruction of the planet. The whole sentimental scene at the end of the game with Tails was clearly meant to indicate that it was a bridge too far for Eggman, and he wasn't just upset about possibly dying himself. Like, it's just... not written that way.

Eggman in SA2's last scene wonders why Gerald went insane despite learning why, which was Maria's death, who Eggman doesn't give a flying fuck about since he just watched Gerald's execution video and didn't bat an eyelash. He wondered if Gerald wanted to destroy the earth but doesn't condemn him for it either. He's just in shock that the mental image he had of his grandfather as a child was different from what the reality was.

[ComeAsYouAre]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't think Eggman has any sort of coherent political ideology beyond "I want to be in charge of everything."

His Idealogy is probably that he believes in a society built on science advancement spearheaded by him, with his grandfather's death probably impacting him to believe that the current rulers are holding back society from in his own worlds making an empire spread throughout the Galaxy 

[WanderingBleats]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Eggman in SA2's last scene wonders why Gerald went insane despite learning why, which was Maria's death, who Eggman doesn't give a flying fuck about since he just watched Gerald's execution video and didn't bat an eyelash. He wondered if Gerald wanted to destroy the earth but doesn't condemn him for it either.

Well, yeah, but from a screenwriting standpoint, what was the purpose of having Eggman ask that question? The scene is staged as though all the characters are deep in thought. They're reflecting on what has just happened and their own paths in life. I don't think there's any coherent reading of this scene that doesn't include "Eggman is highly disturbed by his grandfather's actions and how they're not matching up with his view of who he was." He doesn't need to explicitly go "And that's terrible!" because it's kind of implied from context.

[Kuzu]

Should be noted that when Shiro Maekawa was the lead scriptwriter in SA2, he kind of intentionally reinterpreted the characters a bit to fit the story he wanted to tell, and SA2 is kind of written with a sense of finality to it. So Eggman in SA2 kind of feels like his last hurrah, where his motivations are laid bare and he realizes maybe the path he was following wasn't correct if it led to where his Grandfather went....

Obviously all of that needed to be ignored in Eggman's subsequent appearances since the Sonics series would continue. So um, hard to pin down Eggman's real feelings on the matter. Eggman from Sonic 1 to Sonic Adventure 2 may as well be a different character from Eggman in Heroes onwards. 

[Eggman Fan]

All this talk about the Eggman Empire got me wondering. Living under Eggman would rock if he wasn't evil.

I mean imagine, flying mobiles, robotic bodies for the disabled, space bases, massive amusement parks, and a bunch of robots doing all the work. The main problem is the Egghead is evil, and a really bad planner, but luckily if he wasn't a villain people would end up working for him, and they could handle the planning.

too bad the mans a war criminal.

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Sonic Fan 3,183 said:

too bad the mans a war criminal.

While all true, the United Federation hardly has a clean record either. You've got the ARK massacre, a horrific incident in which innocent scientists and even a child were shot to death. You have Rouge, a government spy, allowing Prison Island to be destroyed rather than blow her cover by stopping it or warning her fellow government comrades. You have the police and military tearing the city apart to apprehend Sonic, using everything from killer robots to a giant rampaging semi-truck that destroys everything in its path. Repeatedly, we see a government that is callous at best and actively malicious at worst.

They're preferable to the Eggman Empire by virtue of being a democracy instead of a total dictatorship, but they're hardly ideal. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Eggman's non-robotic supporters (like Infinite) might see Eggman's rule as a welcome change. The official Forces prequel comic alludes to that much:

And in Forces itself, Infinite never wavers. Never so much as thinks of betraying Eggman, even when he gets impatient or frustrated with the doctor's planning. To the bitter end - when Eggman tosses him aside for his defeat - Infinite is loyal to the Eggman Empire, rather than just concerned with his own power or proving how strong he is or whatever. He presumably believed in whatever Eggman was doing with the world. And it isn't as though he or his squad were turned into mindless robot drones or anything - they're a clear case of organic citizens of the Eggman Empire, fighting to keep the Empire in power.

Let me clear: This isn't justification or apologia for conquest or dictatorship. Eggman ruling the world would be (and in Forces, clearly was) an unquestionably bad thing. But there are people in Sonic's world - not just Eggman's own robots - who would welcome him into power, and would be loyal to his rule. People like Infinite, who didn't like the world as it was, and thought Eggman could bring about a better one.

[Eggman Fan]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

While all true, the United Federation hardly has a clean record either. You've got the ARK massacre, a horrific incident in which innocent scientists and even a child were shot to death. You have Rouge, a government spy, allowing Prison Island to be destroyed rather than blow her cover by stopping it or warning her fellow government comrades. You have the police and military tearing the city apart to apprehend Sonic, using everything from killer robots to a giant rampaging semi-truck that destroys everything in its path. Repeatedly, we see a government that is callous at best and actively malicious at worst.

They're preferable to the Eggman Empire by virtue of being a democracy instead of a total dictatorship, but they're hardly ideal. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Eggman's non-robotic supporters (like Infinite) might see Eggman's rule as a welcome change. The official Forces prequel comic alludes to that much:

And in Forces itself, Infinite never wavers. Never so much as thinks of betraying Eggman, even when he gets impatient or frustrated with the doctor's planning. To the bitter end - when Eggman tosses him aside for his defeat - Infinite is loyal to the Eggman Empire, rather than just concerned with his own power or proving how strong he is or whatever. He presumably believed in whatever Eggman was doing with the world. And it isn't as though he or his squad were turned into mindless robot drones or anything - they're a clear case of organic citizens of the Eggman Empire, fighting to keep the Empire in power.

Let me clear: This isn't justification or apologia for conquest or dictatorship. Eggman ruling the world would be (and in Forces, clearly was) an unquestionably bad thing. But there are people in Sonic's world - not just Eggman's own robots - who would welcome him into power, and would be loyal to his rule. People like Infinite, who didn't like the world as it was, and thought Eggman could bring about a better one.

What this has told me is in the Sonic universe anarchy is the way to go. You have single handedly man me like this franchise 100% more.