Sonic Frontiers Cyberspace Questions Answered in an IGN Video coming tomorrow

[Zadent]

17 hours ago, MightyGems said:

There is a drop dash, there is a level that is all 2D, the levels in cyberspace are 2 minutes long in average, so short, and there is an awesome boost that makes Sonic go fast when 400 rings are collected.

Anything I missed?

Coming back to this briefly, while I believe it was said elsewhere, further confirmation of there being 5 goals per cyberspace stage, so the duration of those runs may vary based on what they are and how well you can control through them. The stages were pretty focused on 1-2 things each.

good music. The flashier moves Sonic does are more combo finishers, curious how it’s determined which he does.

possibly a combo counter, for better rewarding your ability to deal damage without taking damage.

collecting the rock guys is how you upgrade your…speed and rings. Don’t lose all your rings (only 40, akin to ShTH only dropping 10).

Map is pretty open on arrival.

did not see a chao in the 4 hours he played.

[NoKaine]

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't have the energy for the ten billionth relitigation of why the widely loved classic games were good and better than the consistently underperforming if not outright terrible modern games.

You did it ten billion times, what's ten billion and one?

Surely it'd be easy if you, a person who presumably never made a video game, can see these differences and even suggest that taking the lessons from a sprite-based 2D game and just applying to a 3D open world game is not only plausible, but ideal and smart, if the people the latter game weren't such incompetent dumb-dumbs. Such a claim goes past "I just like them" and into "I can actually deconstruct the games and their qualities seriously, if not objectively."

I just don't see how "make it good" is a lesson. Do you think that Sonic Team gets crunched for years on yet another goddamn Sonic the Hedgehog game to make it bad on purpose? 

Has anyone tried telling Takashi Iizuka "just make the next game good?" That will certainly change things lol.

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They had plenty of time to learn from the genesis games and chose not to. Mania had to come around and show that that kind of game was still viable and desirable, giving them a fresh opportunity.

Who the fuck was like "the Genesis games weren't actually good, viable, and desirable (besides people who wouldn't like Sonic Team's efforts no matter what they do)?" Did you think Sonic Team actually thought "no, we're not going to take from the Genesis games, because no one thinks they're good anymore?"

I mean, SEGA wouldn't make Sonic the Portable into Sonic the Hedgehog 4 if no one thought that the Genesis games weren't viable and desirable. "But it's not acksually like the Genesis games." But SEGA DID know that people liked those games.

If all that is true, what did Mania do to prove them wrong? It's a fucking Genesis game. This is why I asked to name new lessons to learn from Mania, because I can't. It's just a Genesis Sonic game. And it's a good fucking Genesis Sonic game. But... it's just a Genesis game.

Even the developers stated that their goal was to basically make the 2D Sonic game that the SEGA Saturn never got. While it's a great game, SEGA didn't make another 2D Sonic game for a reason back then. 

What is there to learn from Mania, specifically?

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

'm mad that they haven't learned anything else from Mania.

What else is there to learn? Like, the Drop Dash is a literal mechanic to borrow. What, do you want Press Garden in Frontiers? That's not exactly "learning" either.

Sonic Team puts the Drop Dash in those classic or classic-styled games because it's such an easy and simple idea. None of those games are meant to reinvent or represent the classic games in the first place. It's to add something new to old shit. Like Mania itself. Like what they're doing with the Cyber Space levels and Frontiers as a whole.

[VO.SUPER]

The blue aura is probably the standard boost with the invincibility and all. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

So, the lightspeed dash is in, the drop dash is in, the spin dash might also be in.

The plot thickens.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

21 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You did it ten billion times, what's ten billion and one?

Okay, as someone who does have the energy to explain something more than ten billion times until it gets across (and you do not want me to do that, trust me—I’ll make sure you never ask again), that’s the whole problem. It shouldn’t take that many times for one to understand something.

Not that you can’t see things differently if you want (by all means, use the explanation to find a different angle if you can—you might open up some interesting ideas), but if comes down to a back and forth with the same angle, you’re being willfully stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

Don’t do that.

[NoKaine]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Okay, as someone who does have the energy to explain something more than ten billion times until it gets across (and you do not want me to do that, trust me—I’ll make sure you never ask again), that the whole problem. It shouldn’t take that many times for one to understand something.

Not that you can’t see things differently if you want (by all means, use the explanation to find a different angle if you can), but if comes down to a back and forth with the same angle, you’re being willfully stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

Don’t do that.

They've been saying nothing but "make it good" "make it an actual Sonic game" with no explanation, but okay.

They didn't explain anything, because I'm apparently too late and their "explain specifically why Mania is a good game and, say, Sonic Generations is not" quota has been filled? Do I need to wait a month? Maybe take a ticket?

Actually, if you both can't be assed, link me to an old post, or something. 

Do remember this whole thing is over why having the Drop Dash in Frontiers is bad, or something, still not sure what they're getting at, but yeah.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

They've been saying nothing but "make it good" "make it an actual Sonic game" with no explanation, but okay.

Sounds like a baseline to me.

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

They didn't explain anything, because I'm apparently too late and their "explain specifically why Mania is a good game and, say, Sonic Generations is not" quota has been filled. Do I need to wait a month? Maybe take a ticket?

Why not just find another angle on it and see how well it stands to critique?

Mind you, I was only singling out just the part about explaining things for ten billion times, not on whether Mania is a good game and Generations isn’t (neither holds a candle to S3&K anyway). I actually have little to say on that part.

[D.H]

Honestly, it just sounds like "Sonic Team should've made a 3D momentum based game with rolling physics out the ass," but Sonic Team or SEGA doesn't need to do that for us to get good Sonic games, nor is it something they absolutely needed to learn from Mania.

[NoKaine]

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Sounds like a baseline to me.

It sounds like glib, meaningless, un-constructive, and subjective nonsense to me. Can't help but ask for just a pinch more, sir.

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Why not just find another angle on it and see how well it stands to critique?

Do you actually know what we're yelling each other at over or

To reiterate, I ask "what is there to learn from Mania (and specifically in the context of what Sonic Team can employ in future titles like Frontiers, presumably already with the purpose of making the games better), Diogenes replies "making it good." 

[Kuzu]

It may not be "needed" but boy, it sure would be fucking nice to actually have a proper follow up to the games that put Sonic on the map in the first place instead of getting another 3D game that's just gonna do "ok" at best...like every other 3D game.

 

[Shiny Gems]

7 minutes ago, D.H said:

Honestly, it just sounds like "Sonic Team should've made a 3D momentum based game with rolling physics out the ass," but Sonic Team or SEGA doesn't need to do that for us to get good Sonic games, nor is it something they absolutely needed to learn from Mania.

Exactly! Not to call Diogenes stubborn or anything worse (and it is not just him I talk about), but some people aren't willing to just move on or let go of wanting a 3D momentum based game. I personally think the longer they hold onto that, the more it will affect how they tolerate other kinds of gameplay that is not what they want.

[Kuzu]

We go through this whole saga of young and new fans getting into arguments with Diogenes literally every time there's a new game.

I know because I was one of them; you guys are fighting a pointless battle trying to change their mind lol. They're never gonna change until they get what they want.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

It sounds like glib, meaningless, un-constructive, and subjective nonsense to me. Can't help but ask for just a pinch more, sir.

Well, when people have been saying it for well over a decade…fair. But all the more reason to find a new angle, no? 

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Do you actually know what we're yelling each other at over or

Yep. But that’s not the part I wanted to comment over. Just a tip over explaining your case better.

Sorry, if it didn’t help.

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Kuzu said:

We go through this whole saga of young and new fans getting into arguments with Diogenes literally every time there's a new game.

I know because I was one of them; you guys are fighting a pointless battle trying to change their mind lol. They're never gonna change until they get what they want.

Oh, I am aware of that. THAT is why I was trying not to say much.

[Zadent]

I almost feel like, at this point, we might as well shift back to the actual topic?

Some prefer the 2D games and their momentum and level design. They don’t like the 3D titles as much. That’s fine.

Some are fine, or in my case prefer, some of the 3D titles, and this whole idea of an “actual sonic game” or “good game” don’t really do much for them in the discussion.

Idk. I feel like things are getting into the typical arguments between 2D vs 3D. Was there anything else people got from the Q&A?

[NoKaine]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It may not be "needed" but boy, it sure would be fucking nice to actually have a proper follow up to the games that put Sonic on the map in the first place instead of getting another 3D game that's just gonna do "ok" at best...like every other 3D game.

I noticed this comment when it was just

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It may not be "needed" but boy, it sure would be fucking nice to actually have a proper follow up to the games that put Sonic on the map in the first place

which I had no problem agreeing with, but then you added

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

instead of getting another 3D game that's just gonna do "ok" at best...like every other 3D game.

and I feel like saying, even though it might be obvious, that a major contention here is that there are, a lot of people who think games like Frontiers... or Generations or Colors or Unleashed or the Adventure games are in fact, more than "ok at best", and that's probably why SEGA / Sonic Team keeps making these games. 

I'm also curious of the framing of wanting the classic games because they "put Sonic on the map" and not, like "I like them" or anything. It's not about the games themselves, it's the perception of those games, I guess. 

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

We go through this whole saga of young and new fans getting into arguments with Diogenes literally every time there's a new game.

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I know because I was one of them; you guys are fighting a pointless battle trying to change their mind lol. They're never gonna change until they get what they want.

I read your full comment, not as bad as I thought, still not a good look to start off with "new and young fans", though.

 

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Well, when people have been saying it for well over a decade…fair. But all the more reason to find a new angle, no? 

And people have been saying "Sonic was never good to begin with" for a decade. What does that mean? What angle are you talking about? Are you talking about Diogenes or me?

[Shiny Gems]

2 minutes ago, Zadent said:

I almost feel like, at this point, we might as well shift back to the actual topic?

Some prefer the 2D games and their momentum and level design. They don’t like the 3D titles as much. That’s fine.

Some are fine, or in my case prefer, some of the 3D titles, and this whole idea of an “actual sonic game” or “good game” don’t really do much for them in the discussion.

Idk. I feel like things are getting into the typical arguments between 2D vs 3D. Was there anything else people got from the Q&A?

I don't know, but I am personally excited for the 400 ring boost thing. It's a way to earn speed for me!

 

Just now, NoKaine said:

I noticed this comment when it was just

which I had no problem agreeing with, but then you added

and I feel like saying, even though it might be obvious, that a major contention here is that there are, a lot of people who think games like Frontiers... or Generations or Colors or Unleashed or the Adventure games are in fact, more than "ok at best", and that's probably why SEGA / Sonic Team keeps making these games. 

I'm also curious of the framing of wanting the classic games because they "put Sonic on the map" and not, like "I like them" or anything. It's not about the games themselves, it's the perception of those games, I guess. 

Oh no, I remember this dumb elitist bullshit lmao. This is exactly why I drop out of this godforsaken forum for months at a time. Fuck this shit. Fuck this mindset. 

And people have been saying "Sonic was never good to begin with" for a decade. What does that mean? What angle are you talking about? Are you talking about Diogenes or me?

 

I would hate to be the one to say this, but it would be best to chill. I don't think this is worth getting worked up over.

 

 

[Zadent]

1 minute ago, MightyGems said:

I don't know, but I am personally excited for the 400 ring boost thing. It's a way to earn speed for me!

That is really curious. A lot of rings to get there. I’m curious how tough it’ll be to get and hope that is actually gonna feel. Didn’t he say it was quite the experience?

[KHCast]

34 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Who the fuck was like "the Genesis games weren't actually good, viable, and desirable (besides people who wouldn't like Sonic Team's efforts no matter what they do)?" Did you think Sonic Team actually thought "no, we're not going to take from the Genesis games, because no one thinks they're good anymore?"

I mean, SEGA wouldn't make Sonic the Portable into Sonic the Hedgehog 4 if no one thought that the Genesis games weren't viable and desirable. "But it's not acksually like the Genesis games." But SEGA DID know that people liked those games.

Were you not around when for years the classic side of things was outright ignored and downplayed by Sega or…?

 

36 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

If all that is true, what did Mania do to prove them wrong? It's a fucking Genesis game. This is why I asked to name new lessons to learn from Mania, because I can't. It's just a Genesis Sonic game. And it's a good fucking Genesis Sonic game. But... it's just a Genesis game.

Even the developers stated that their goal was to basically make the 2D Sonic game that the SEGA Saturn never got. While it's a great game, SEGA didn't make another 2D Sonic game for a reason back then. 

What is there to learn from Mania, specifically?

46 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Botw learned and took inspiration from the original NES Zelda game. Mario routinely hearkens  back in both mechanics and aesthetic to its classic roots. Hell, something like Final Fantasy 7 Remake despite being an action rpg still managed to pay homage in its gameplay to the old ATB system in a natural and engaging way.  Sonic still struggles to do anything meaningful in this regard, and only seems to be able to do shallow nostalgia or window dressing shit that ultimately doesn’t really show meaningful improvement. “It’s old/old styled so therefore there’s nothing that can be learned from it” is a ridiculous  argument against dio.

[NoKaine]

2 minutes ago, MightyGems said:

would hate to be the one to say this, but it would be best to chill. I don't think this is worth getting worked up over.

Yeah, I didn't read the rest of the comment, my bad at @Kuzu

But anyway, yeah, talking about the game, still weird that there's a Drop Dash but no Spin Dash.

No rolling option isn't too weird, since the Adventure games didn't make you roll on your own, only with a Spin Dash. 

Someone made a joke elsewhere about Sonic Team not wanting a dedicated crouching button but I'm pretty sure that's actually the answer.

Just now, KHCast said:

“It’s old/old styled so therefore there’s nothing that can be learned from it” is a ridiculous  argument against dio.

It is. That is also not my argument. In fact, I also asked "why not say 'learn from the classic games in general', instead of specifically Mania." 

 

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Zadent said:

That is really curious. A lot of rings to get there. I’m curious how tough it’ll be to get and hope that is actually gonna feel. Didn’t he say it was quite the experience?

Yeah, I mean, I would love to try out something like that, personally speaking. I do think he said that, and while that is a lot of rings, it would be worth it in my opinion. I wonder if it comes with the Drift? (The Drift part is a joke, by the way)

[Jay_Senju]

It would be really weird if they added the drop dash but not the spin dash I really hope it's in the game as a unlockable move.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

And people have been saying "Sonic was never good to begin with" for a decade. What does that mean? What angle are you talking about? Are you talking about Diogenes or me?

“Sonic was never good to begin with” means people are in denial with reality—this is a character who’s franchise has the title of “Mario’s (former) Rival” even if past tense that has been etched in history. You don’t earn that fame by not being good to begin with, even if Sonic’s had a number bad games.

This is kinda what I mean by looking at things from a different angle—see how their words actually match with reality. Doesn’t matter if it’s you, Diogenes, or people on the internet who don’t seem to realize we can fact-check their statements with Google—just because one person says it doesn’t mean it’s a true statement.

[Kuzu]

11 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I noticed this comment when it was just

which I had no problem agreeing with, but then you added

and I feel like saying, even though it might be obvious, that a major contention here is that there are, a lot of people who think games like Frontiers... or Generations or Colors or Unleashed or the Adventure games are in fact, more than "ok at best", and that's probably why SEGA / Sonic Team keeps making these games. 

I'm also curious of the framing of wanting the classic games because they "put Sonic on the map" and not, like "I like them" or anything. It's not about the games themselves, it's the perception of those games, I guess. 

They make them because they sell, that's all there is to it. 06 was a fucking ass game and still sold at least 2M copies.

It has nothing to do with game quality and that's kind of the problem. Most of these 3D games that fans love to go to bat for never really make a splash in the mainstream in any shape or form. "Its just another Sonic game" and people move on with their lives. With the exception of like one or two games, most 3D Sonic games get average or mixed reception, with some never getting above an 80 on metacritic. Meanwhile the last game that really got people's attention was Mania, gee I wonder why.

 

And man, you can be pissy about how people feel about 3D Sonic all you want, I don't give a fuck. But maybe instead of getting into pointless debates with people you disagree with, you could examine perhaps WHY the Classic games are held in such high regard and why the 3D games aren't. You don't have to agree or like it, but maybe explore that instead of getting mad cuz some people actually want Sonic to do more than just coast on his brand identity while being overshadowed by his competition.

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Kuzu said:

They make them because they sell, that's all there is to it. 06 was a fucking ass game and still sold at least 2M copies.

It has nothing to do with game quality and that's kind of the problem. Most of these 3D games that fans love to go to bat for never really make a splash in the mainstream in any shape or form. "Its just another Sonic game" and people move on with their lives. With the exception of like one or two games, most 3D Sonic games get average or mixed reception, with some never getting above an 80 on metacritic.

And man, you can be pissy about how people feel about 3D Sonic all you want, I don't give a fuck. But maybe instead of getting into pointless debates with people you disagree with, you could examine perhaps WHY the Classic games are held in such high regard and why the 3D games aren't. You don't have to agree or like it, but maybe explore that instead of getting mad cuz some people actually want Sonic to do more than just coast on his brand identity while being overshadowed by his competition.

As someone who did grow with the classic games, I would say the last suggestion of a paragraph is a great approach. I like both modern and classic, and while it may not seem so, I can understand where classic fans are coming from, even if I don't agree with some of their beliefs or wants.