Sonic Frontiers Cyberspace Questions Answered in an IGN Video coming tomorrow

[KHCast]

4 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

It is. That is also not my argument. In fact, I also asked "why not say 'learn from the classic games in general', instead of specifically Mania." 

Their point was that Mania released in the modern era, after Sega failing multiple times to understand why many people wanted and liked classic style gameplay, as a proper follow up to 3&K, proved that style of gameplay was still popular and could be replicated, and Sega still haven’t seemed to take any notes from it outside drop dash or follow up on its success

[NoKaine]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

They make them because they sell, that's all there is to it

Yes. That's what my point about "there are people who like these games." They sell because people like them. A lot of people, in fact. That is why they keep making games for them. 

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It has nothing to do with game quality and that's kind of the problem.

If this problem has nothing to do with game quality, then game quality isn't going to fix it. And if game quality can fix it, then only going back to the old games specifically because they are perceived as being the "best games" or even "the only good games" won't solve that problem either. 

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

, you could examine perhaps WHY the Classic games are held in such high regard and why the 3D games aren't.

And you should realize that people do in fact hold the 3D games in high regard, and not worry about the opinions of people who are way out of the loop. 

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

maybe explore that instead of getting mad cuz some people actually want Sonic to do more than just coast on his brand identity

Nothing says "not coasting on brand identity" like "they should make more classic Genesis games because they're the only ones that have higher than 80 on Metacritic." 

[Zadent]

clings to 06 “it’s ok, i still love you.”

 Yeah, i can see the things people like about the classics and might want to continue…I’ve just grown up taking them as different things, and think they need to get better at a alternating or something so neither group goes too long without something good (And preferably not rushed)

[Wraith]

The broad problem with the whole 'the 3D games don't have anything to learn from the 2D ones' argument is that they aren't actually trying to make a different style of games. There's a reason you guys constantly beg for the boost games to have alternate styles, more playable characters, be more difficult and have more interesting movement: These are things that would objectively improve the experience for everyone.

The connection you all are missing is that the classic games are able to accomplish all of those things, while not actually losing out on the series's focus on speed, fast paced platforming and spectacle. You're not playing a different style of game, you're playing the same style of game but worse. Less options. Less mechanics. Less nuance. Less content. They try to make up the difference with gimmicks and I think it says it all that even the most diehard 3D Sonic fans don't even give a shit whether the Werehog or mech shooting comes back or not. If these games are so great, why are large chunks of them so disposable?

So why is there pushback on this? I haven't been able to figure it out, other than any critique of 3D Sonic being seen as a personal slight, so people have to fight back with any argument they can even if it doesn't make any sense IE: the embarrassing display on the first page. You knew exactly what the fuck Diogenes meant when he said the 3D games should learn from Mania, but you decided to be obtuse instead to play cheerleader for a literal brand who can't love you back no matter what.

Advice to all hardcore 3D Sonic fans out there: Don't do PR work for free. At least get paid by Sega for this nonsense. 

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

We go through this whole saga of young and new fans getting into arguments with Diogenes literally every time there's a new game.

I know because I was one of them; you guys are fighting a pointless battle trying to change their mind lol. They're never gonna change until they get what they want.

Part of growing up is realizing he always had a point.
 

[Kuzu]

Just now, Wraith said:

 

Part of growing up is realizing he always had a point.
 

Everyone learns eventually.

[Zaysho]

I'm going to lock this thread if I keep seeing some of you continue to dogpile a single member—who is not even arguing back—and not even attempt to engage what's being said like I was seeing on page 2. And anyone who quotes me and tries to argue about it will just have their post deleted.

[NoKaine]

6 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Their point was that Mania released in the modern era, after Sega failing multiple times to understand why many people wanted and liked classic style gameplay, as a proper follow up to 3&K, proved that style of gameplay was still popular and could be replicated, and Sega still haven’t seemed to take any notes from it outside drop dash or follow up on its success

And my point is that there is no reality that the classic games weren't popular and that people thought it couldn't be replicated. 

That is literally why Mania exists in the first place. 

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The broad problem with the whole 'the 3D games don't have anything to learn from the 2D ones'

Not even what I said.

 

58 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

What is there to learn from Mania, specifically?

15 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I also asked "why not say 'learn from the classic games in general', instead of specifically Mania." 

 

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There's a reason you guys constantly beg for the boost games to have alternate styles, more playable characters, be more difficult and have more interesting movement: These are things that would objectively improve the experience for everyone.

Those are also not unique to the classic games at all? And also, no, alternate styles and playable characters and... okay movement would always help, but those other two things do not objectively improve the experience for everyone. See: the Adventure games, that have all of those things too, games I see people actively say they want for reasons that aren't just "because it's popular to like them", and games that people have actually gave reasons for why Sonic Team should learn from them instead of "they good."

Anyway, case closed.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Kuzu said:

Everyone learns eventually.

Pfft. You guys are getting needlessly overdramatic over all this.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Pfft. You guys are getting needlessly overdramatic over all this.

....what even is dramatic about that? I just agreed with someone lol.

Trying so hard to make a point that's not there.

Its ok man, you can still love 3D Sonic.

[DaBigJ]

Why would I use the drop dash in this game if I can just boost? Same with spindashing? Better yet, why should I boost when I can just spindash, or dropdash?

It's the same question I had when playing Mania, why spindash when I can drop dash while playing as Sonic? That's why I never have the drop dash on when I play as Sonic in Sonic Manai. I love the drop dash, don't get me wrong, but it completely nullifies the spindash imo.

Or, in this game's case, it nullifies the boost and the rumored spindash.

[Zadent]

Just now, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

Why would I use the drop dash in this game if I can just boost? Same with spindashing? Better yet, why should I boost when I can just spindash, or dropdash?

It's the same question I had when playing Mania, why spindash when I can drop dash while playing as Sonic? That's why I never have the drop dash on when I play as Sonic in Sonic Manai. I love the drop dash, don't get me wrong, but it completely nullifies the spindash imo.

Or, in this game's case, it nullifies the boost and the rumored spindash.

It’s probably gonna depend on what it’s actual purpose is. Maybe it transitions you better into moving forward over stomping and then running or something like that

[NoKaine]

Just now, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

Why would I use the drop dash in this game if I can just boost? Same with spindashing? Better yet, why should I boost when I can just spindash, or dropdash?

It's the same question I had when playing Mania, why spindash when I can drop dash while playing as Sonic? That's why I never have the drop dash on when I play as Sonic in Sonic Manai. I love the drop dash, don't get me wrong, but it completely nullifies the spindash imo.

Or, in this game's case, it nullifies the boost and the rumored spindash.

The Drop Dash has a much higher skill ceiling than the Spin Dash and is more situational.

For Frontiers, I can imagine scenarios where you would want to Drop Dash on the ground instead of air boosting.

[DaBigJ]

Just now, Zadent said:

It’s probably gonna depend on what it’s actual purpose is. Maybe it transitions you better into moving forward over stomping and then running or something like that

Fair enough if that's the case, I suppose, but i'm unsure if that'll be true or not.

I'm glad to see the drop dash be used more, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for it to be here, in a game that'll already have so many moves and button combinations to remember.

[KHCast]

Lol okay I’m done with this argument it’s clearly not gonna go anywhere 

 

ANYWAY, I find it interesting he notes in the interview the cyberspace levels are more like Unleashed and Gens, despite him implying the levels are fairly short (around 2 mins) and don’t sound like they’re that deep. He says you’re only doing like one or 2 things in them before finishing. So on that alone, that gives me more colors/forces vibes than the other 2. Plus, his only distinction between Colors/Forces and Unleashed/Gens is “no wisps” which…yeah, I’m gonna remain a bit skeptical on what he says on this lol

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, KHCast said:

Lol okay I’m done with this argument it’s clearly not gonna go anywhere 

ANYWAY, I find it interesting he notes in the interview the cyberspace levels are more like Unleashed and Gens, despite him implying the levels are fairly short (around 2 mins) and don’t sound like there that deep. He says you’re only doing like one or 2 things in them before finishing. So on that alone, that gives me more colors/forces vibes than the other 2. Plus, his only distinction between Colors/Forces and Unleashed/Gens is “no wisps” which…yeah, I’m gonna remain a bit skeptical on what he says on this lol

Personally, I technically am skeptical about that. I mean, to me, Unleashed and Generations is vague here, and it could mean anything. Based on the Director of this games' past games, I do have a feeling the levels being like Unleashed and Generations will not be the case, at least not completely.

[DaBigJ]

2 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The Drop Dash has a much higher skill ceiling than the Spin Dash and is more situational.

For Frontiers, I can imagine scenarios where you would want to Drop Dash on the ground instead of air boosting.

If they're able to do so, then I'll gladly utilize both moves when needed. It's not a bad idea to include the drop dash, but I hope they're able to make it just as usable as any other move

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

....what even is dramatic about that? I just agreed with someone lol.

Trying so hard to make a point that's not there.

Its ok man, you can still love 3D Sonic.

This whole pretentious ranting between both sides is honestly just a drag at this point on actual conversation regarding the game.

Also, you really need to stop making assumptions or grouping people off of arbitrary topics.

Just because I don't agree with Diogenes' opinion that some take as gospel, doesn't make me some fan obsessed with 3D Sonic.

Like, what was even your reasoning for bringing that up? SMH.

Honestly, this very conversation right now is going nowhere, and I have no interest in it.

[Celestia]

The previews seem to imply the boost meter works like normal since it was apparently maxed out for the sake of the demos (though I guess that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't still work as a stamina meter), so purely in theory there could be some use for the spin dash in that case.

In reality, as Rush demonstrates, it's probably not really going to be necessary, but eh.

6 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Lol okay I’m done with this argument it’s clearly not gonna go anywhere 

ANYWAY, I find it interesting he notes in the interview the cyberspace levels are more like Unleashed and Gens, despite him implying the levels are fairly short (around 2 mins) and don’t sound like there that deep. He says you’re only doing like one or 2 things in them before finishing. So on that alone, that gives me more colors/forces vibes than the other 2. Plus, his only distinction between Colors/Forces and Unleashed/Gens is “no wisps” which…yeah, I’m gonna remain a bit skeptical on what he says on this lol

In fairness a casual run of most modern Generations levels are about 2 minutes, usually just under that even. The only exception I can think of is at the end with Planet Wisp.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

This whole pretentious ranting between both sides is honestly just a drag at this point on actual conversation regarding the game.

Also, you really need to stop making assumptions or grouping people off of arbitrary topics.

Just because I don't agree with Diogenes' opinion that some take as gospel, doesn't make me some fan obsessed with 3D Sonic.

Like, what was even your reasoning for bringing that up? SMH.

Honestly, this very conversation right now is going nowhere, and I have no interest in it.

And yet, here you are commenting on it as opposed to going about your business. If you don't care, then don't post. Its pretty simple actually.

 

 

Anyway, getting back on topic. The drop dash being in the gamr doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme. And seeing how it's been implemented in ST's recent games, can't say I have faith in its execution either.

 

But I suppose the novelty of having it in a 3D game is good.

[Iko]

I say this after playing Sonic Origins and the original MD/Genesis games for comparison, as someone who likes the classics just as much as Adventure and Modern Sonic (when done right).

The classics are extremely overrated, they are just normal games, not the sacred perfect relics that many purists make you think of. The level design in the classics has a lot of flaws just like the modern games have... there are collision issues (in the original games too), unfair death traps, boring sections, unintuitive level design like the barrel and the sand slides in Sandopolis, etc. Metropolis and Wacky Workbench are worse than a Sonic 4 level, Sonic 3 is full of unfair crushing blocks, just as much as Sonic Advance 3 if not even more, and the final stage of Sonic CD relies on an unfair bottomless pit for fake difficulty; they are full of stuff like that.

And the drop dash in Sonic 1/2/CD is fine, it might reuse the spindash code or what not, but I played it casually and didn't notice anything bad about it, it just works fine.

The modern games have a lot of problems and I don't like the boost gameplay we got from Unleashed onward, but I wouldn't say that classic Sonic is the only way to develop a good Sonic game; people who prefer the Adventure or modern games over the classics are just as right as the people who like the classics more.

[NoKaine]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And seeing how it's been implemented in ST's recent games

Forces used the Drop Dash how it was intended (it's just that the rest of the physics were shit). Considering that Frontiers in general has better controls and possibly physics than the boost games, the Drop Dash will either work exactly the same or entirely differently anyway.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

If they're able to do so, then I'll gladly utilize both moves when needed. It's not a bad idea to include the drop dash, but I hope they're able to make it just as usable as any other move

I'm honestly of the mindset that the drop dash is a sign of the spin-dash being in the game.

With all these other returning moves such as a proper light speed dash, I do get the feeling that they're opting for quite expensive moveset of Sonic in this game. 

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Iko said:

I say this after playing Sonic Origins and the original MD/Genesis games for comparison, as someone who likes the classics just as much as Adventure and Modern Sonic (when done right).

The classics are extremely overrated, they are just normal games, not the sacred perfect relics that many purists make you think of. The level design in the classics has a lot of flaws just like the modern games have... there are collision issues (in the original games too), unfair death traps, boring sections, unintuitive level design like the barrel and the sand slides in Sandopolis, etc. Metropolis and Wacky Workbench are worse than a Sonic 4 level, Sonic 3 is full of unfair crushing blocks, just as much as Sonic Advance 3 if not even more, and the final stage of Sonic CD relies on an unfair bottomless pit for fake difficulty; they are full of stuff like that.

And the drop dash in Sonic 1/2/CD is fine, it might reuse the spindash code or what not, but I played it casually and didn't notice anything bad about it, it just works fine.

The modern games have a lot of problems and I don't like the boost gameplay we got from Unleashed onward, but I wouldn't say that classic Sonic is the only way to develop a good Sonic game; people who prefer the Adventure or modern games over the classics are just as right as the people who like the classics more.

Very nicely said there, Iko.

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm honestly of the mindset that the drop dash is a sign of the spin-dash being in the game.

With all these other returning moves such as a proper light speed dash, I do get the feeling that they're opting for quite expensive moveset of Sonic in this game. 

You never know. I just wonder how the Spin Dash would work differently from the boost? That would be a big question to answer.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, MightyGems said:

You never know. I just wonder how the Spin Dash would work differently from the boost? That would be a big question to answer.

From what we've seen so far of the game, the boost does not function like the be-all-end-all offensive tool that it was in past games.

Rather, more like something of an acceleration mechanic. 

In some shape or form, the spin dash might be in to handle the more offensive speed capabilities. 

[DaBigJ]

2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm honestly of the mindset that the drop dash is a sign of the spin-dash being in the game.

With all these other returning moves such as a proper light speed dash, I do get the feeling that they're opting for quite expensive moveset of Sonic in this game. 

And that's not at all a bad thing! My biggest concern is more so me trying to remember and use the moves, i'm not the best with keeping track of so many things at one time.

Heh, maybe that's why I'm not into open worlds. My brain resents them since they're complex