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Does SEGA treat their other games better than the Sonic the Hedgehog games?


Rabbitearsblog

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I was wondering: when it comes to games like the Yakuza series, it seems like those games have a better production process than anything dealing with Sonic the Hedgehog.  Is it because SEGA treat their other games much better when it comes to making the games and they felt that it's not worth it making the Sonic games in better shape since they will sell no matter what or is this just an issue relegated to Sonic Team alone?

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(Sorry, I know this is long, I just have weird, nuanced views on this. I hold no ill will if you look at the length and nope out.)

I don't know if they get treated "better" per say, but if you're not happy with them reusing Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary... maybe don't start getting into the Yakuza series.

I personally don't think they treat the Sonic series poorly per say, but the company does give me the impression that dev cycles are faster and less funded than what you might expect from the larger industry, and the stuff that tends to suffer is really fine tuning gameplay concepts (I.E. stuff you'd manage during prototyping), and quality control. I'm pretty cynical about SEGA's ability to manage itself as a business at... basically any part of its history (look at our shiny Super Game and Fog Gaming, please ignore all the backstabbing between regions and teams during the 16-bit transition, what if we let a single retailer get earliest possible access to the Saturn), but then I look at Square Enix and think the only degrees of separation are a small handful of massive successes and the amount of time and money Square's willing to dump into something that seems massively irresponsible.

I might just broadly argue that certain teams in SEGA are strictly better at game development than Sonic Team or have a more refined vision of their franchise, though those franchises occasionally have their own... issues. Some of the themes in Lost Judgment seem like they're in pretty poor taste, and... I've not played any Atlus games after the acquisition, but the Persona series and spin-offs have long had a reputation of exploring charged topics without the sensitivity or nuance required to do so.

Then we get to the weird way Sonic Origins launched. Not the bugs, but the whole version flowchart. This isn't new. This has been a thing they've been doing for a while, and the earliest example I can think of is Like a Dragon. It feels like every game needs to have some form of upsell whether it makes sense or not. Colors Ultimate had skins and early access, Banana Mania had skins and early access, Lost Judgment had content attached to the DLC that seems pivotal to what people go to those games for, and of course, Sonic Origins (which is already a fairly premium priced product) wants just a couple extra dollars and a pre-order for perks that make absolutely no sense in a retro collection. I don't know what this push is, whether they feel like they HAVE to get a few more dollars to make their projects justifiable, if it's them looking at the way the rest of the industry is handling DLC and saying "But what if us too?" or just "We want to test the waters to see what our customers are willing to pay." There are more and less cynical interpretations of that, I have no insight as to which is most accurate, but in any case, it feels kinda gross.

For me, SEGA is just complicated. They have a handful of solid developers, they have a couple of interesting ideas, they have some franchises that push the envelope, but at the end of the day, there's just not a commitment to the things you would think make the most sense to commit to. I don't know if Hyenas will be good. But what they showed definitely didn't seem good enough to have a big central marketing push in a landscape where there's a LOT of competition among team-based ability-driven shooters. These kind of decisions just give me the sense of them saying "We're SEGA, we're a big name and we deserve to have just as much recognition as everyone else... but we're not going to spend as much, we're going to take money from platforms like Epic and Sony for timed exclusivity, and if something doesn't work out, we're okay taking the reputation hit over taking the financial hit."

"Also we're going to hire a celebrity for the character model and voice acting whose talent agency will absolutely not let him appear in PC games because they don't fundamentally understand how software modding works."

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I agree with GX Echidna,

It's not that they mistreat the Sonic Series specifically. Another IP published by SEGA that I play a lot is Total War and specifically the Warhammer series (5000 played hours on total war warhammer 2 alone), but even there it's shown that SEGA's release schedule is really punishing. The final installment of the total war warhammer series, namely 3, was incredibly underwhelming compared to what Total warhammer 2 eventually became.

The campaign wasn't fun, there was a LOT of things that needed to be finetuned. It's quite telling if your Tutorial is the BEST thing ever about a game and your main campaign mode is incredibly undercooked. That reeks of deadline crunch and it's been delayed too. Creative assembly create good content for the total war games, but it's SEGA that's the publisher that demands a game is being launched... completed or not.

My view that the sonic games are not performing greatly is part because of this publishing drive SEGA has, but also because they got incredibly good ideas however on the next installment they throw the baby out with the bath water. Back in Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic and Knuckles and eventually 3 they kept building up and up and up not trying drastic changes.
SA1 into SA2 is probably even more telling how they took a key concept and (with even less man power no less) made SA2 a better version of SA1 in a lot of departments. Sure it didn't get the potential it could have because of the team being severely understaffed, but what is there in SA2 was already good with a fraction of the work.
After that I feel like each time they try something innovative and it flops because of the deadline crunch they scrap the entire idea and try to reinvent the wheel. Sonic Generations is a different story though because it's fusing 2 styles that were done before into a new jacket and needed some polishing up to make it work. And work it did.

This does make me a bit worried for Frontiers because it's a new concept again.

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That's the issue I have with SEGA.  Every time something fails, they always try to do something else rather than look at what failed in the last game and try to improve on that.  Every time they change things up, they don't seem to learn their lesson and it just ends up making things worse for future games.  Like for example, even though the Werehog concept in Sonic Unleashed didn't go over so well with some people, I still think that SEGA could use that concept again and try to improve the Werehog's movements in a future game.  Also, I don't know how the work conditions are in the gaming industry, but is SEGA the only gaming company that overworks their developers or is this something that other gaming companies do?

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I'm gonna push back on that a bit because they have actually been sticking pretty close to a formula for roughly a decade. With the exception of the new combat mechanics, Sonic's moveset in Frontiers is VERY much in the framework they've been developing since Unleashed, or arguably Secret Rings. The boost, the sidestep, the drop stomp, the grind, it's all there. It just has a slightly different context.

The werehog... I know some very vocal people are uniting around that game now, but the werehog was brutally panned at the time, and it's still not especially well thought of today when you look outside of the Sonic fanbase. They could have tried to optimize it in later entries successfully or unsuccessfully, but the culture around it was already tainted and a mildly better version would still have the stink of failure on it. It would have been a terrible business choice to continue that specific line.

Instead, they did continue down the line of something slightly more successful, the Wisps. With Sonic Colors being a critical bright spot, they continued using them as a mechanic in Lost World and to a lesser extent Forces, but they really struggled to recapture the satisfying feel or level design that made abilities like Spike and Hover really fun in Colors.

I don't think this is a game-to-game refining issue. If that were the case, something as core as the way Modern and Classic Sonic feel between Generations and Forces wouldn't be the bizarre regression it is. There's a web of decisions involve here, from the habit of moving staff and resources midway through a project, to console exclusivity deals, to a philosophical willingness to let consumers purchase a technically rough product and no clear roadmap of fixing it.

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8 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Also, I don't know how the work conditions are in the gaming industry, but is SEGA the only gaming company that overworks their developers or is this something that other gaming companies do?

I feel it's pretty safe to assume that working conditions are the same across all fields of business, be they healthcare, entertainment, finance, tourism or any other. Companies want to use as little people, to create as much stuff they can in as little time as possible for the least amount of cost to net the biggest profits. Thats business 101, but like GX Echidna said; capturing the scope of a project is what often goes wrong. The scope of the project being so big that the current development staff can't handle it in the timeframe set by the publisher.

The publisher (SEGA) wants to release a new title by a set deadline because it coincides with an important marketing strategy they have going or planning out. The development team (Sonic Team) is then tasked by making it so. But to deliver the project they have in mind (the scope) they need time and estimating if the project can come to full fruition within the timeframe set by SEGA is proven to be very very difficult for Sonic Team. Yes they can ask for push backs on the deadline, but that only works a couple times if there's a darn good reason for it.

4 hours ago, GX Echidna said:

I'm gonna push back on that a bit because they have actually been sticking pretty close to a formula for roughly a decade. With the exception of the new combat mechanics, Sonic's moveset in Frontiers is VERY much in the framework they've been developing since Unleashed, or arguably Secret Rings. The boost, the sidestep, the drop stomp, the grind, it's all there. It just has a slightly different context.

Fair, I was more eluding to the period before unleashed came, everything afterwards has been set on refining the 'boost' formula. And it's not bad at all. Though I'd hazard to state that Generations classic sonic to Forces classic sonic was merely because classic sonic was a bit done to death AND the unfortunate release time of Sonic Mania (wholly classically styled) and Sonic Forces. People had their fill of classic sonic in Mania and now you get another serving of Classic Sonic in a 3d (well... more like a 2D game masquerading as a 3d) game.

It's like telling a joke. Each time you tell it the exact same way it gets a little more stale.
In some cases the joke is rough and needs work (looking at everything before sonic unleashed) and in some it's done to death (classic sonic).

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I dont know much about the other SEGA series outside of Monkey Ball. But the way I'm seeing things, SEGA really likes to frontload their content for sales and then quickly drops them for the next in whatever release state it's in. 

And this comes with the consequences of products being in less than capable states, and SEGA over-relying on patches to get them to decent states. But then they drop the patches once the game falls out of the, "frontloaded sales" phase. 

And with other franchises like Monkey Ball, maybe that makes sense, but it's insane Sonic doesn't get special treatment when those games should be evergreen titles. 

They don't play a long game very well. 

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Another issue that I think is going on with SEGA is that they don't really give much attention to their other titles.  Sure, I understand that Sonic is their flagship title, but I have saying that goes "One product can't hold up an entire company." Now, that statement might not resonate with some titles and companies, but SEGA had some other interesting titles like the Yakuza series and Monkey Ball that they could give more attention to.  Once everyone sees how good those titles are, then many people might start taking SEGA seriously as a gaming company and that might give SEGA some incentive to do a little better with the Sonic titles.

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8 hours ago, Duelistic Nature said:

Though I'd hazard to state that Generations classic sonic to Forces classic sonic was merely because classic sonic was a bit done to death AND the unfortunate release time of Sonic Mania (wholly classically styled) and Sonic Forces. People had their fill of classic sonic in Mania and now you get another serving of Classic Sonic in a 3d (well... more like a 2D game masquerading as a 3d) game.

"Done to death" is strong. Classic Sonic still has a better reputation than modern critically, though preference is a person-to-person thing. The bigger issue is that Classic Sonic's physics just didn't feel right compared to Generations, the 16-bit games, and Mania. His movement is a bit sluggish and restricted. It's not that he's overused (I mean, it's still Sonic in whatever form he takes), but it's a failure to recapture how that character is supposed to feel in 2.5D even after getting it... mostly right just a few years prior.

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2 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Another issue that I think is going on with SEGA is that they don't really give much attention to their other titles.  Sure, I understand that Sonic is their flagship title, but I have saying that goes "One product can't hold up an entire company." Now, that statement might not resonate with some titles and companies, but SEGA had some other interesting titles like the Yakuza series and Monkey Ball that they could give more attention to.  Once everyone sees how good those titles are, then many people might start taking SEGA seriously as a gaming company and that might give SEGA some incentive to do a little better with the Sonic titles.

 

Sega is hardly ignoring the rest of the catalog. Maybe there are a few IPs that are prime to get the dust knocked off, but lets not pretend that they are leaning on Sonic in spite of everything else. The Sonic being "one product holding up an entire company" idea falls flat on its face when you look at all the attention Persona gets. If anything, that's their Halo product. The Yakuza series is far from ignored. Not sure how you could give the series even more attn when It just pushed out 2 spinoffs from its main series.

 

Sega is a capable publisher, with a more positive recent track record than negative. Across the board they tend to average higher metacritic scores than most other companies, particularly so when Sonic Team isn't out there winging it and nuking the curve.

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Sega is hardly ignoring the rest of the catalog. Maybe there are a few IPs that are prime to get the dust knocked off, but lets not pretend that they are leaning on Sonic in spite of everything else. The Sonic being "one product holding up an entire company" idea falls flat on its face when you look at all the attention Persona gets. If anything, that's their Halo product. The Yakuza series is far from ignored. Not sure how you could give the series even more attn when It just pushed out 2 spinoffs from its main series.

Sega is a capable publisher, with a more positive recent track record than negative. Across the board they tend to average higher metacritic scores than most other companies, particularly so when Sonic Team isn't out there winging it and nuking the curve.

It does make me wonder about why Sonic Team is struggling with keeping the Sonic games in good condition, while the other teams for Yakuza and Persona are constantly putting out good games.

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As someone who has been deep into Phantasy Star Online 2, SEGA's flagship online game, they have mistreated the game and disrespected their players several times over the game's lifetime, but don't learn from their mistakes (or even from the successes they do make.) This is despite the fact that PSO2 is one of SEGA's biggest money makers, raking in more revenue per year since it's release in 2012 than the release of a Sonic game that year would. None of that profit has ever gone back into making PSO2 a better game.

I don't even want to get into PSO2's disaster here, but Sonic could have it a whole lot worse.

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28 minutes ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

As someone who has been deep into Phantasy Star Online 2, SEGA's flagship online game, they have mistreated the game and disrespected their players several times over the game's lifetime, but don't learn from their mistakes (or even from the successes they do make.) This is despite the fact that PSO2 is one of SEGA's biggest money makers, raking in more revenue per year since it's release in 2012 than the release of a Sonic game that year would. None of that profit has ever gone back into making PSO2 a better game.

I don't even want to get into PSO2's disaster here, but Sonic could have it a whole lot worse.

Oh, I didn't know that Phantasy Star Online was treated badly.

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