Should Sega follow up origins with a "middle era" collection? What should it include?

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Why not simply not do the dumb shit again when it comes to adding ShTH? 

Rewrite the script and make the weapons look similar to the Wispons. Or take out the weapons and let Shadow use Chaos Spear in their place.

I can honestly give ShTH a second chance if it actually fixed the problems that gave it its bad rep.

This is hard labor that would cost a lot of money. Money that could go toward a new game that would better guarantee a return.

It's not happening. Those maligned Sonic games are going to stay maligned and that's honestly how I'd rather it be. Shadow the Hedgehog is trashy, but it has a unique flavor to it that I really like. It would be a shame to dilute that seeking the approval of people who's opinions don't matter at all at this point.

[Cosmos Rogue]

3 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Why not simply not do the dumb shit again when it comes to adding ShTH? 

Rewrite the script and make the weapons look similar to the Wispons. Or take out the weapons and let Shadow use Chaos Spear in their place.

I can honestly give ShTH a second chance if it actually fixed the problems that gave it its bad rep.

Not doing the dumb shit again is an argument against making a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, but if Sega ever does decide to rerelease the Shadow game that we do have they shouldn't alter it until it's unrecognizable from its original form. For bad or ill the realistic firearms and tame cusses are a part of what made Shadow's game memorable (to be polite). If you think you can change those aspects of the game without producing a very different game, than you might as well say that the level design, controls, and enemies should also be reworked to not be dumb shit.

[Salamander]

6 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Why not simply not do the dumb shit again when it comes to adding ShTH? 

Rewrite the script and make the weapons look similar to the Wispons. Or take out the weapons and let Shadow use Chaos Spear in their place.

I can honestly give ShTH a second chance if it actually fixed the problems that gave it its bad rep.

What you are describing is a new game.  And who knows, maybe that could work!  Sonic Forces had Shadow DLC, you could look at the metrics from that to determine the potential success of a new Shadow game; time it to capitalise on the third Sonic movie and you'd have the start of a good marketing strategy.  Will they do it?  No, of course not, but the potential is there.

But meddling with the existing game so extensively is the mark of a far more ambitious remake than any Sonic game is likely to get right now, let alone one of the most maligned.

[Razule]

It's crazy SEGA seems content to just let an entire decade of games be lost to time. Even the good ones. There's gotta be some kind of rights issue with the handheld games or something. The console ones I get. It'd take too much effort to remaster them for current standards, and releasing mostly unaltered ports to new hardware and exposing a new generation to some of Sonic's worst reviewed games probably isn't something they consider acceptable. 

If only they were better at the time, but who cares about the future when you can just crap out games you're embarrassed of and then bury them later. 

[Duelistic Nature]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:35 PM, Starnik said:

Who would make the games exactly? Would Sonic team have to stop making new games to port these over? A new Sonic would probably sell better a collection of old ones, so it might not sound like a good idea to SEGA/Sonic team. And these games are a sour reputation online. If this collection was made, 
Maybe if the collection was just Sonic adventure 1 and 2, and it was super polished, it might go over well. But even then it would make fans unhappy that Sonic adventure 3 was never made. And people would argue about the different play styles being unfun. And that’s not even getting into the issue of old vs new actors voicing the lines.
 

I feel that if we'd ever want to get an SA3 that lives up to the hype they should first see into remastering SA1 and 2 from the ground up just go get in the groove again.

My ideal set in this package is SA1, SA2, and the handheld games.

I'd leave Heroes and Shadow the hedgehog out of the loop for now because either the package or the workload would get too big.

 Besides the artwork style changed quite a bit from SA2 towards Heroes where as the handhelds kept the overall anesthetics and feel of the SA legacy.

Of course you'd get the massive plothole why shadow exists between Heroes /ShtH and the end of SA2, but you have to pick some sacrifice to make.

A package later I'd include Heroes, shadow the hedgehog, sonic 06' (so we got the best of shads) and the og Sonic Riders.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

16 hours ago, Wraith said:

This is hard labor that would cost a lot of money. Money that could go toward a new game that would better guarantee a return.

Money that SEGA has plenty to throw around in order to do both if they wanted to. Their pockets aren’t that small, and this isn’t that big of a risk than it was back in 2005.

It not that big of labor either—it wouldn’t be any different to what they did with Origins where I’m looking at it given I’m only suggesting they remodel or remove the guns and rewriting the script. I’m not suggesting rebuilding the whole game, which is what I would rather they do if they had the chance, and that’s before getting into how ShTH ironically sold damn well despite its reception to become hits on the platforms at the time.

So I’m pretty sure they can afford it if they’re going to go to the extent of remastering past games.

16 hours ago, Wraith said:

It's not happening.
 

I once said those exact words for Sonic 4 being made years before they went and made it. Quality of that game aside, If there’s anything I learned from that, it’s that you’d be surprised what could happen. Hell, people have been saying an SA3 would never happen for years until Iizuka recently hinted at the possibility with Frontiers.

16 hours ago, Wraith said:

Those maligned Sonic games are going to stay maligned and that's honestly how I'd rather it be. Shadow the Hedgehog is trashy, but it has a unique flavor to it that I really like. It would be a shame to dilute that seeking the approval of people who's opinions don't matter at all at this point.

Yes, the fandom’s usual “if it’s broken, don’t bother fixing it” shtick. Unfortunately, that’s not how I operate.

I highly doubt that would be diluting just getting rid of the stupid parts that made it trashy. And if folks opinions don’t matter at all, it’s not going to hurt anything remodeling weapons or redubbing the script. No more than what they did adding to their multiplayer in SA2 with SA2:B.
 

ShTH fans still have the game they enjoy but one looked at in a better light, and people who thought badly of the game now see it in a better light. I find that much more worthwhile than keeping a game trashy for the sake of some “unique” flavor. 

@Cosmos RogueThey most certainly can rework the controls, level design, and enemies to not be dumb shit too, without producing too different of a game. But that’s more than what I’m asking—not that I’m against it either way.

[LegoFedora]

7 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Money that SEGA has plenty to throw around in order to do both if they wanted to. Their pockets aren’t that small, and this isn’t that big of a risk than it was back in 2005.

It not that big of labor either—it wouldn’t be any different to what they did with Origins where I’m looking at it given I’m only suggesting they remodel or remove the guns and rewriting the script. I’m not suggesting rebuilding the whole game, which is what I would rather they do if they had the chance, and that’s before getting into how ShTH ironically sold damn well despite its reception to become hits on the platforms at the time.

So I’m pretty sure they can afford it if they’re going to go to the extent of remastering past games.

I once said those exact words for Sonic 4 being made years before they went and made it. Quality of that game aside, If there’s anything I learned from that, it’s that you’d be surprised what could happen. Hell, people have been saying an SA3 would never happen for years until Iizuka recently hinted at the possibility with Frontiers.

Yes, the fandom’s usual “if it’s broken, don’t bother fixing it” shtick. Unfortunately, that’s not how I operate.

I highly doubt that would be diluting just getting rid of the stupid parts that made it trashy. And if folks opinions don’t matter at all, it’s not going to hurt anything remodeling weapons or redubbing the script. No more than what they did adding to their multiplayer in SA2 with SA2:B.
 

ShTH fans still have the game they enjoy but one looked at in a better light, and people who thought badly of the game now see it in a better light. I find that much more worthwhile than keeping a game trashy for the sake of some “unique” flavor. 

@Cosmos RogueThey most certainly can rework the controls, level design, and enemies to not be dumb shit too, without producing too different of a game. But that’s more than what I’m asking—not that I’m against it either way.

It's not a matter of not having the budget for it, it's a matter of making a profit from it. Even IF they remake shadow to actually be good, there's no guarantee non sonic fans will buy it ESPECIALLY considering the already infamous reputation shadow has as a game.

Keep in mind, this isn't 2005. Games are a lot more expensive to make now, companies can't really throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks without a risk of a loss anymore.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

21 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

It's not a matter of not having the budget for it, it's a matter of making a profit from it. Even IF they remake shadow to actually be good, there's no guarantee non sonic fans will buy it ESPECIALLY considering the already infamous reputation shadow has as a game.

Yeah, like that hasn’t been said a thousand times for every Sonic game in the past 15 years before they were even released considering the franchise infamous reputation as a whole.

21 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

Keep in mind, this isn't 2005. Games are a lot more expensive to make now, companies can't really throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks without a risk of a loss anymore.

You did read what I suggested they do, right?

Care to provide a quote on how much remodeling/removing weapons and redubbing a script would cost? Cuz that is the literal most I’m asking.

For one game.

In a hypothetical compilation of games.

Also keep in mind that ShTH sold well despite its bad rep even back in 2005. You really think if you fix the game to where it’s good, people are going to think “well, they fixed it, and it’s actually good, but it still sucks because it’s ShTH?” Is that really how people think, or is that just another excuse to not bother?

[LegoFedora]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yeah, like that hasn’t been said a thousand times from Sonic games for the past 15 years before they were even released. 

You did read what I suggested they do, right?

Care to provide a quote on how much remodeling/removing weapons and redubbing a script would cost? Cuz that is the literal most I’m asking.

I don't know exactly how much, obviously. I'm on a sonic forum not a business meeting. But money would go into textures, models, and especially voice actors (and a lot considering shadow had a decent sized cast even if most were only there for a level or two).

Even something that simple may not be worth the effort just for a game in a collection, especially for sega who we know is very reluctant to do more than the bare minimum (and they don't even get that right most of the time).

Would it be neat, sure. Would it ever happen, I highly doubt it. And even if it did I can't see a lot of people more willing to try it. A rocky game at its core isn't any less rocky because it looks prettier.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

53 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

I don't know exactly how much, obviously. I'm on a sonic forum not a business meeting. But money would go into textures, models, and especially voice actors (and a lot considering shadow had a decent sized cast even if most were only there for a level or two).

I know that is literal chump change compared to remaking a game from the ground up for a company like Sega—you’d barely need to go into the double digit percentile of the budget just to accomplish those simple things for just one game in a compilation. And if they wanted to, very little of that would actually stop them.

In 2022, we have things called “patches” to fix errors and the likes that aren’t that expensive as to making a whole new project from concept to finished product. My suggestion is not really any different from that.

53 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

Even something that simple may not be worth the effort just for a game in a collection, especially for sega who we know is very reluctant to do more than the bare minimum (and they don't even get that right most of the time).

Would it be neat, sure. Would it ever happen, I highly doubt it. And even if it did I can't see a lot of people more willing to try it. A rocky game at its core isn't any less rocky because it looks prettier.

So basically the usual logic in a nutshell, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it; if it is broken, don’t fix it.”

Little wonder why anything gets fixed. Why even bother making or suggesting a remake or remaster compilation then?

Edit: also find it interesting how someone suggested something not too different from what I said for ShTH, and you guys were onboard with the idea.

 

[Wraith]

52 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Edit: also find it interesting how someone suggested something not too different from what I said on this game, and you guys were onboard with the idea.

just because I liked a post doesn't mean I agreed with every single thing it says.

[Strickerx5]

Did some cleaning.

Reminder to stay on topic. Cut the directed jabs.

[Salamander]

8 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I know that is literal chump change compared to remaking a game from the ground up for a company like Sega—you’d barely need to go into the double digit percentile of the budget just to accomplish those simple things for just one game in a compilation. And if they wanted to, very little of that would actually stop them.

I feel that perhaps you are vastly underselling how costly and how difficult game development is.  Rewriting much of the script, redubbing the entire script with the new voice actors, remaking every single cutscene to account for new dialogue and timings, remaking the opening FMV to swap in the new weapons, coding the gameplay for the new weapons, balance, bug testing...

That sounds like significantly more than just chump change to me; again, we're talking about alterations so extensive that you might as well remake the whole thing (or more likely develop it as Shadow 2).  The return on investment for such a heavily modified StH - in a retro collection! - is not going to be very high compared to just presenting it as-is, because they are not going to pull vast numbers of extra punters by half-remaking the game.  That's the real issue here; you say "if they wanted to", but why would they want to?

[JezMM]

10 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I know that is literal chump change compared to remaking a game from the ground up for a company like Sega—you’d barely need to go into the double digit percentile of the budget just to accomplish those simple things for just one game in a compilation. And if they wanted to, very little of that would actually stop them.

In 2022, we have things called “patches” to fix errors and the likes that aren’t that expensive as to making a whole new project from concept to finished product. My suggestion is not really any different from that.

So basically the usual logic in a nutshell, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it; if it is broken, don’t fix it.”

Little wonder why anything gets fixed. Why even bother making or suggesting a remake or remaster compilation then?

Edit: also find it interesting how someone suggested something not too different from what I said for ShTH, and you guys were onboard with the idea.

For the record, all I was imagining is literally snipping the audio to remove Shadow's various "Damn"s (even if that would result in some stilted sentences and Shadow just not having a "taking damage" voice clip anymore - see how in SA2, Omochao's voice clips referencing specific controller buttons just got silenced if you weren't using a controller with the default control scheme, or how they snipped FLUDD's tutorial dialogue in Mario Sunshine on Switch), turning off the blood particle effects (or just replace their textures/materials with blank images if that's what it takes), and slapping some colourful textures on the guns and changing the bullet sound effects to something more "energy weapon"-ish.  The opening FMV would still be a major hassle, but if worse came to worst they could just replace the shots of gun-use with clips from other FMVs from the story, or just remove the opening entirely and let us hardcore fans cry about it, lol.

Re-dubbing the script would definitely be costly, for very little gain, in fact, I'm not actually sure what's to gain from that, you just kinda said it as a thing worth doing without saying why.  Just as a bonus detail by the way, ALL the cut-scene audio would have to be re-mixed for this.  The cut-scene audio in Shadow was all stored as a single sound file for each scene - music, sound effects, and dialogue - I remember that the cut-scene music wasn't included in game rips of the soundtrack at the time for that reason, we had to wait until the official OST came out.

Regardless though, even with my ideas:

Quote

“well, they fixed it, and it’s actually good, but it still sucks because it’s ShTH?” Is that really how people think, or is that just another excuse to not bother?

Yeah, to be honest, that is how people think.  A large amount of Sonic fans IN the Sonic fanbase consider Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) to be an utter laughing stock of a product based on what it was trying to be regardless of how successful it was.  An even larger amount of people outside the fanbase feel that way.  If it weren't for 2006 upstaging it, Shadow would probably be "that one bad game" that the media would just refuse to let people forget about in all their "rocky transition to 3D" paragraphs.

 

I still think it should be preserved and accessible, but I think it'd be so unprofitable for SEGA that to do so would basically be an act of charity to the fans... and SEGA is a business, not a charity.  I'd love it, but it's unreasonable to expect or hope for it in this reality.

[Starnik]

5 hours ago, Salamander said:

I feel that perhaps you are vastly underselling how costly and how difficult game development is.  Rewriting much of the script, redubbing the entire script with the new voice actors, remaking every single cutscene to account for new dialogue and timings, remaking the opening FMV to swap in the new weapons, coding the gameplay for the new weapons, balance, bug testing...

That sounds like significantly more than just chump change to me; again, we're talking about alterations so extensive that you might as well remake the whole thing (or more likely develop it as Shadow 2).  The return on investment for such a heavily modified StH - in a retro collection! - is not going to be very high compared to just presenting it as-is, because they are not going to pull vast numbers of extra punters by half-remaking the game.  That's the real issue here; you say "if they wanted to", but why would they want to?

Remaking Shadow the Hedgehog would definitely be an odd move. The game isn’t liked by most, and resources could be used elsewhere. Also I don’t think any fandom for this particular game would out scream the general Sonic hatedom. It would be a PR disaster. SEGA couldn’t even release Sonic Origins, a collection of games largely considered amazing and generation defining, without ruffling feathers. Bringing back some of these Early 2000s games would be like showing off awkward High School photos. Honestly feels like SEGA can’t do anything with Sonic without a large group of people getting angry. But some moves would definitely be more disastrous than others. 
 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, Salamander said:

I feel that perhaps you are vastly underselling how costly and how difficult game development is.  Rewriting much of the script, redubbing the entire script with the new voice actors, remaking every single cutscene to account for new dialogue and timings, remaking the opening FMV to swap in the new weapons, coding the gameplay for the new weapons, balance, bug testing...

I know that for some of those on that list, there are very simple solutions. The gunplay for example can be altered to where Shadow has ranged attacks based on a power-up that he picks up and the code wouldn’t change too much—you pick up the power-up equivalent of a pistol and your attacks are ranged but weak; pick up an power-up equivalent to an assault rifle or a missile launcher and you have rapid or powerful explosive attacks. You wouldn’t have to rebalance the game all that much (tho by all means, if they choose, go ahead).

Take out any weapon Shadow is holding in the FMV, but keep everything else the same. And bug testing can be solved with a patch. 

You have more work for the story cutscenes, true, but that wouldn’t be any different to them doing that to the other games they’d include with it.

All-in-all, that’s not an extensive change compared to making a whole new game or remaking it entirely. I wouldn’t quote that as the exact cost to making a whole new entry.

9 hours ago, Salamander said:

That sounds like significantly more than just chump change to me; again, we're talking about alterations so extensive that you might as well remake the whole thing (or more likely develop it as Shadow 2).  The return on investment for such a heavily modified StH - in a retro collection! - is not going to be very high compared to just presenting it as-is, because they are not going to pull vast numbers of extra punters by half-remaking the game.  That's the real issue here; you say "if they wanted to", but why would they want to?

Maybe to fix what they broke and give it a second chance. I’ve seen worse games pull through worse situations and actually wind up decent because of the extra work put into fixing their own problems that I don’t see why the same couldn’t apply for Sonic games in the same situation.

If they were going to bother putting any resources in sort of compilation that includes it and several other games that would also likely be making modifications to, they’re already going to go an extra mile to begin with that it’s only going to benefit them actually making something bad turn out good rather than keeping it bad.

I mean we are talking a hypothetical compilation that isn’t limited to ShTH—if we’re talking SA1, SA2, Heroes, etc in this, they’re already spending a hell of a lot more money on the the project as a whole. To which why wouldn’t  they want to? They’d already likely do it to the other games, so why bar ShTH from that opportunity?

Like, how much did it cost to include extra characters in the SA2:B multiplayer when they ported it to the GameCube? How much did it cost to include Metal Sonic as playable in SADX? How much did it cost them to add new characters to Mania Plus? How much did it cost them to make Sonic Origins, going through the source code to allow Knuckles and Tails playable in Sonic 1, adding new scenes and details (only to butcher parts of it to require a patch, essentially wasting money on an actual compilation of good  games that they screw up on)? How much did it cost them to make Sonic Colors Ultimate, which also required a patch when it had some bugs? How much did those patches cost them to fix the problems of those games?

And how much would it cost to even make a compilation of the games of this topic in question? I know the answer to those is also a lot of money, but the economics isn’t really the actual problem with this given that Sega has done even good games bad that they had to spend money fixing those too!

So if there’s going to be suggestions of having a compilation where a lot money is going to be spent on it begin with, including ShTH, why wouldn’t you want it to play or be any better than it was decades ago? (Not counting that Sega could fuck that up regardless of of whether ShTH was included or not, because we’ve seen what they can do)

Not a full blown remake, but one with alterations that they’d be doing for the other games that come with it in said hypothetical compilation? Because I doubt it would cost anywhere more than if they did this same exact thing to, say, SA2 to make it a better game than it initially was.

7 hours ago, JezMM said:

For the record, all I was imagining is literally snipping the audio to remove Shadow's various "Damn"s (even if that would result in some stilted sentences and Shadow just not having a "taking damage" voice clip anymore - see how in SA2, Omochao's voice clips referencing specific controller buttons just got silenced if you weren't using a controller with the default control scheme, or how they snipped FLUDD's tutorial dialogue in Mario Sunshine on Switch), turning off the blood particle effects (or just replace their textures/materials with blank images if that's what it takes), and slapping some colourful textures on the guns and changing the bullet sound effects to something more "energy weapon"-ish. 
 

So not really any different from what I would suggest then. The only difference is that I’d re-model the guns into power-ups based on his Chaos Spear.

7 hours ago, JezMM said:

Re-dubbing the script would definitely be costly, for very little gain, in fact, I'm not actually sure what's to gain from that, you just kinda said it as a thing worth doing without saying why. 

I figured “to make it good” was enough of a reason why. But if you want to save on costs, you can leave it as is.

7 hours ago, JezMM said:

Regardless though, even with my ideas:

Yeah, to be honest, that is how people think.  A large amount of Sonic fans IN the Sonic fanbase consider Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) to be an utter laughing stock of a product based on what it was trying to be regardless of how successful it was. An even larger amount of people outside the fanbase feel that way.  If it weren't for 2006 upstaging it, Shadow would probably be "that one bad game" that the media would just refuse to let people forget about in all their "rocky transition to 3D" paragraphs.

I’m aware of it’s reputation. But I highly doubt people would continue think of something bad as still bad when you fix bad things.

[azoo]

Porting SA1 and 2 to modern consoles in a dual-collection just makes logical sense and takes zero brain power to come up with. Which is a major reason why Sega won't do it. Their brains are just too big for ideas like that.

But also after Origins and Cultimate it's best to wonder if you even want them to. I mean, the public probably needs it if Sega wants these games to stay relevant to anyone. But you, as a Sonic fan who knows how to use the internet, are probably far better off just getting SA1/2 on Steam and modding the hell out of them with the QoL improvements fans have managed to put in. Any old potato can play those. Just take the five minutes to learn how to connect a Xbox or Switch controller to your PC and yeah.

As for Heroes, ShTH, 06, Unleashed, anything else from that era.. lets bring up that idea again; wanting games to stay relevant to anyone. I'm almost certain they'll never get rereleased just simply because Sega doesn't want to remind anyone of them lol. I feel for that reason you're more likely to get a Sonic Advance / Rush collection than them.

..Or at least Advance. DS games are doomed.

 

[Kuzu]

33 minutes ago, azoo said:

Porting SA1 and 2 to modern consoles in a dual-collection just makes logical sense and takes zero brain power to come up with. Which is a major reason why Sega won't do it. Their brains are just too big for ideas like that.

But also after Origins and Cultimate it's best to wonder if you even want them to. I mean, the public probably needs it if Sega wants these games to stay relevant to anyone. But you, as a Sonic fan who knows how to use the internet, are probably far better off just getting SA1/2 on Steam and modding the hell out of them with the QoL improvements fans have managed to put in. Any old potato can play those. Just take the five minutes to learn how to connect a Xbox or Switch controller to your PC and yeah.

As for Heroes, ShTH, 06, Unleashed, anything else from that era.. lets bring up that idea again; wanting games to stay relevant to anyone. I'm almost certain they'll never get rereleased just simply because Sega doesn't want to remind anyone of them lol. I feel for that reason you're more likely to get a Sonic Advance / Rush collection than them.

..Or at least Advance. DS games are doomed.

Kind of monkey's paw situation isn't it lol.

[Razule]

Can't re-release them as is because they're from the most infamous era of Sonic's history. Can't remake them because a lot of the improvements would piss off the people who liked those things. Can't remaster them because for some it'd be polishing a turd, and there's a good chance they'd figure out some new way to make them worse (the latter applies to the remake, too). From a preservationist standpoint, it's disappointing, but I can see why SEGA wouldn't think touching ShtH and Sonic 06 beyond the odd reference would be worth the potential damage.

[Starnik]

32 minutes ago, Razule said:

Can't re-release them because they're from the most infamous era of Sonic's history. Can't remake them because a lot of the improvements would piss off the people who liked those things. Can't remaster them because for it'd be polishing a turd, and there's a good chance they'd figure out some new way to make them worse (the latter applies to the remake, too). From a preservationist standpoint, it's disappointing, but I can see why SEGA wouldn't think touching ShtH and Sonic 06 beyond the odd reference would be worth the potential damage.

It’s a very sad situation no matter how you look at it. Those early 2000s games make up a substantial part of Sonic’s history. But I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole if I was SEGA or Sonic Team. These games will  just be a bit of a black spot in Sonic’s legacy to the gaming community. 

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I know that for some of those on that list, there are very simple solutions. The gunplay for example can be altered to where Shadow has ranged attacks based on a power-up that he picks up and the code wouldn’t change too much—you pick up the power-up equivalent of a pistol and your attacks are ranged but weak; pick up an power-up equivalent to an assault rifle or a missile launcher and you have rapid or powerful explosive attacks. You wouldn’t have to rebalance the game all that much (tho by all means, if they choose, go ahead).

Take out any weapon Shadow is holding in the FMV, but keep everything else the same. And bug testing can be solved with a patch. 

You have more work for the story cutscenes, true, but that wouldn’t be any different to them doing that to the other games they’d include with it.

All-in-all, that’s not an extensive change compared to making a whole new game or remaking it entirely. I wouldn’t quote that as the exact cost to making a whole new entry.

Maybe to fix what they broke and give it a second chance. I’ve seen worse games pull through worse situations and actually wind up decent because of the extra work put into fixing their own problems that I don’t see why the same couldn’t apply for Sonic games in the same situation.

If they were going to bother putting any resources in sort of compilation that includes it and several other games that would also likely be making modifications to, they’re already going to go an extra mile to begin with that it’s only going to benefit them actually making something bad turn out good rather than keeping it bad.

I mean we are talking a hypothetical compilation that isn’t limited to ShTH—if we’re talking SA1, SA2, Heroes, etc in this, they’re already spending a hell of a lot more money on the the project as a whole. To which why wouldn’t  they want to? They’d already likely do it to the other games, so why bar ShTH from that opportunity?

Like, how much did it cost to include extra characters in the SA2:B multiplayer when they ported it to the GameCube? How much did it cost to include Metal Sonic as playable in SADX? How much did it cost them to add new characters to Mania Plus? How much did it cost them to make Sonic Origins, going through the source code to allow Knuckles and Tails playable in Sonic 1, adding new scenes and details (only to butcher parts of it to require a patch, essentially wasting money on an actual compilation of good  games that they screw up on)? How much did it cost them to make Sonic Colors Ultimate, which also required a patch when it had some bugs? How much did those patches cost them to fix the problems of those games?

And how much would it cost to even make a compilation of the games of this topic in question? I know the answer to those is also a lot of money, but the economics isn’t really the actual problem with this given that Sega has done even good games bad that they had to spend money fixing those too!

So if there’s going to be suggestions of having a compilation where a lot money is going to be spent on it begin with, including ShTH, why wouldn’t you want it to play or be any better than it was decades ago? (Not counting that Sega could fuck that up regardless of of whether ShTH was included or not, because we’ve seen what they can do)

Not a full blown remake, but one with alterations that they’d be doing for the other games that come with it in said hypothetical compilation? Because I doubt it would cost anywhere more than if they did this same exact thing to, say, SA2 to make it a better game than it initially was.

So not really any different from what I would suggest then. The only difference is that I’d re-model the guns into power-ups based on his Chaos Spear.

I figured “to make it good” was enough of a reason why. But if you want to save on costs, you can leave it as is.

I’m aware of it’s reputation. But I highly doubt people would continue think of something bad as still bad when you fix bad things.

I feel like the reason your ideas aren't being well-received is that you just have slightly... hard to think of a concise word... "inappropriate" priorities?  Like the gunplay thing is just a concern of age rating if it was to be included in a compilation with other more kid-friendly games.  Realistic firearms are a no go for that - it's why in Sonic X, the police and soldier weaponry have their sound effects dubbed over with laser sounds for the 4kids version.  Shadow's alien weaponry wouldn't need any changes, and replacing it with power-ups would just be weird without re-animating Shadow's side of stuff.  Re-balancing doesn't even come into it - these would be purely cosmetic changes either way so I'm not sure why you're mentioning re-balancing.

"Take out every weapon Shadow is holding in the FMV" makes me think you might not fully understand some facets of game development for what you're suggesting.  An FMV is a video file.  You can't just... remove stuff unless you have access to the original files from the animation company that worked on it, which SEGA might not at this point.  They certainly didn't for Sonic Adventure 2, which is why all FMV content in that game forces the game back into 4:3 mode because they couldn't re-render those videos using the original files in widescreen.  "And bug testing can be solved with a patch" is an incredibly meaningless non-specific statement to make compared to the nuances of game development.

With the re-dubbing thing, I don't think that would make people enjoy the story anymore.  The writing was mediocre, the in-game cut-scenes are terribly animated.  Really the voice acting was perfectly servicable compared to everything else.  I know you aren't that passionate about the idea but again, just an example of where I think your personal priorities for improving the game are a little misguided compared to what it would take to actually fix it.  I don't think you could tweak or prod little things to make Shadow be considered a great game by everyone, it'd need much more of an overhaul.

 

The final thing is answering your question of "if SEGA is willing to spend money on [all your examples], why not Shadow?"

All those examples were adding good stuff to an already good thing.  The games of Sonic Origins, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Mania were already good and people already liked those characters that were added as playable!  Sonic Colours Ultimate was already as well received by critics as the original was so it made sense to spend the money polishing it up a bit more for those who invested in it.

Spending money to add a cherry on top of a product re-release that is already fairly likely to earn them money is a lot less of a risky investment than spending money to fix something with a bad reputation.  Yes, the people who give a remade Shadow the Hedgehog a chance may well no longer think of this new version as a bad game (but it will likely still be thought of as "the bad game that SEGA eventually fixed").  But the sad fact is so many people won't give it that chance because it has an existing reputation.  Which is what makes it too risky an investment compared to the idea of spending money adding to a product that already has a reasonable chance of success even in it's raw form.

[Razule]

Notice that in the entertainment industry, the good media that was well-received at the time it released is what gets modern reboots, and the bad or mixed stuff that people disliked or don't remember is buried. It's just safer to give people more of what they liked before.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

48 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I feel like the reason your ideas aren't being well-received is that you just have slightly... hard to think of a concise word... "inappropriate" priorities?  Like the gunplay thing is just a concern of age rating if it was to be included in a compilation with other more kid-friendly games.  Realistic firearms are a no go for that - it's why in Sonic X, the police and soldier weaponry have their sound effects dubbed over with laser sounds for the 4kids version.  Shadow's alien weaponry wouldn't need any changes, and replacing it with power-ups would just be weird without re-animating Shadow's side of stuff.  Re-balancing doesn't even come into it - these would be purely cosmetic changes either way so I'm not sure why you're mentioning re-balancing.

Re-balancing was brought up in another post as far as remastering the game. I was mainly talking the aesthetics of the gunplay being changed to look like variants Chaos Powers but nothing else beyond that.

48 minutes ago, JezMM said:

"Take out every weapon Shadow is holding in the FMV" makes me think you might not fully understand some facets of game development for what you're suggesting.  An FMV is a video file. 
 

Now that part I admit I didn’t know. Never really looked into that part about FMVs, so I figured it was just a matter of taking the 3D models and just removing the weapons Shadow has in an animation.

48 minutes ago, JezMM said:

With the re-dubbing thing, I don't think that would make people enjoy the story anymore.  The writing was mediocre, the in-game cut-scenes are terribly animated.  Really the voice acting was perfectly servicable compared to everything else.  I know you aren't that passionate about the idea but again, just an example of where I think your personal priorities for improving the game are a little misguided compared to what it would take to actually fix it.  I don't think you could tweak or prod little things to make Shadow be considered a great game by everyone, it'd need much more of an overhaul.

Honestly, I was reaching for “bearable” not enjoyable. Ideally, I’d redo the entire story from scratch, but that is when cost would really stack.

48 minutes ago, JezMM said:

The final thing is answering your question of "if SEGA is willing to spend money on [all your examples], why not Shadow?"

All those examples were adding good stuff to an already good thing.  The games of Sonic Origins, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Mania were already good and people already liked those characters that were added as playable!  Sonic Colours Ultimate was already as well received by critics as the original was so it made sense to spend the money polishing it up a bit more for those who invested in it.

Good thing or bad thing, you’re still spending money on creating it.

I’ve seen games with terrible starts like Rainbow Six Seige make a complete 180 in reception after they fixed the problems.

If you want an even better equivalent example: Mighty No. 9.

I know plenty are aware of how that  game turned out in a manner similar Sonic 06. You would think the same of that game (I crowdfunded that shit for $50, and that’s chump change for me, so I sure as hell know how that went) as that game was not fun. But did you know IntiCreate basically remade that game’s levels and bosses (mind you it was done 2D pixel art, so there was some cost saving there) and used them for Mighty Gunvolt Burst into a game that’s actually fun—basically the equivalent of taking Sonic 06 and actually making it good? Then they added 7 extra playable characters to it.

This is why I believe you can take a bad game and actually fix it into something good—I’ve seen it done with other titles that have done just as worse in reception.

[Wraith]

Shadow holding realistic firearms is key to that game's identity. Those renders are more iconic than any of the actual locations and new characters that appear in the game. You could go as far as to say that the hook of 'Sonic with a gun' is the reason the game even exists in the first place. The idea of just scrubbing it out is almost hilarious to me. Like what is he going to do in that intro shot that's burned into everyone's brains? Cock the air? Point a finger gun?

It's like trying to shop the wisps out of Colors. If you need to "fix" something that central to the game's identity than it's probably just fundamentally broken.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

He could just stand over a city in the night, watching the war play out below before teleporting away.