Is games Amy even a good character?

[Duelistic Nature]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I would say focus on her relationships with other characters, but that requires taking the focus away from Sonic and putting it on her. 

Hopefully Frontiers does something with her, Amy as a character has been kind of at a narrative dead-end for almost two decades now. 

That is what I like about her in the comics. She's actually a voice of reason most of the time, trying to be reasonable about their options when things look grim for the group. Not overly optimistic, but down to earth. She's the inspirator or motivator of the group most of the time.

Less clingy to Sonic than in the games, but still proudly wearing her fondness for Sonic on her sleeve. And not letting that fondness rule her over in a crisis.

[Rienasketch]

I don't hate Amy, but she just doesn't feel particularly qualified to be the franchise "female lead" for me that SEGA's trying to push. I'm not even a huge fan of Princess Sally, but I can kind of see why some of her fans disliked her. SEGA dumped the initially female lead Sally -- who mind you had her own conceptual problems, yes -- but, for a girl that essentially has the narrative strength of a side character. And even then, I felt like some of the love interests turned side characters over at Archie had more potential than her. Hell Tiara Boobowski had a stronger concept.

If she was like Breezie or Mina Mongoose who showed up now and again, I wouldnt have minded. But I felt like SEGA kept pushing her beyond what was necessary. Which spurred a lot of drama that could've been avoided.

[Kuzu]

I think its inaccurate to say "Sega dropped Sally for Amy" because SoJ never considered Sally to be the franchise heroine at all. Even Sega of America never particularly pushed Sally outside of a poor attempt at localization attempt in CD and Sonic Spinball.

I do think do think its interesting because I get the distinct feeling SoA wanted their own version of Sally in Tiara from Xtreme, given what very little we know of the latter. The idea of giving Sonic a strong-willed Love Interest who can stand on his level was definitely considered but never came to be.

 

By the time Sonic Adventure rolled around, Amy was basically grandfathered into the heroine role because there was literally no one else lmao. Tikal was dead, so Amy was the only living female they could use as a main character.

 

Which is hilarious because yea, I get the feeling she was never meant to be a major character given how simple her concept and background is. She is technically Sonic's girlfriend in that obscure manga she debuted in, but that's specifically a version of Sonic who is much more meek and weak-willed to contrast Amy's high-spirited nature, which was kind of reversed in the games; Sonic was the cool and level headed one while was the lovestruck follower.

 

I like Amy well enough but yea, her narrative potential is pretty weak, especially since the idea of a relationship between her and Sonic will never be explored in any official capacity, so she can't even fulfill her role as a love interest lol.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Yeah, Sally wasn't dropped for Amy, so much as her role in the series kinda hit a brick wall, since she wasn't going to be games material. Arguably, as far as the game series was anything to go by, Amy was more or less, the leading lady.

[Rienasketch]

51 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I think its inaccurate to say "Sega dropped Sally for Amy" because SoJ never considered Sally to be the franchise heroine at all. Even Sega of America never particularly pushed Sally outside of a poor attempt at localization attempt in CD and Sonic Spinball.

I do think do think its interesting because I get the distinct feeling SoA wanted their own version of Sally in Tiara from Xtreme, given what very little we know of the latter. The idea of giving Sonic a strong-willed Love Interest who can stand on his level was definitely considered but never came to be.

By the time Sonic Adventure rolled around, Amy was basically grandfathered into the heroine role because there was literally no one else lmao. Tikal was dead, so Amy was the only living female they could use as a main character.

Which is hilarious because yea, I get the feeling she was never meant to be a major character given how simple her concept and background is. She is technically Sonic's girlfriend in that obscure manga she debuted in, but that's specifically a version of Sonic who is much more meek and weak-willed to contrast Amy's high-spirited nature, which was kind of reversed in the games; Sonic was the cool and level headed one while was the lovestruck follower.

I like Amy well enough but yea, her narrative potential is pretty weak, especially since the idea of a relationship between her and Sonic will never be explored in any official capacity, so she can't even fulfill her role as a love interest lol.

 

Thats not entirely true. SEGA DID recognize Sally at one point, and was initially going to try pushing for Sally to have her own series, games, cartoons, etc. Thats why they made Archie do that Sally miniseries thing. But she didnt prove successful enough for the demographics they wanted. And she was part of SEGA world.

They knew who she was. SoJ just didnt want her. And when they rose more in power, non Japanese characters got the snuff. So I wouldn't say they simply dropped Sally for Amy specifically, as much as they just did a clean sweep of America's characters. According to Chris Senn, Tiara's creator, there was a lot of culture wars, racism and sabotage that went on at SEGA.

Granted, I dont think I would have wanted Sally as a female lead. Hell, I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea to have "one" female lead. One might argue she had too much presence to the point she overshadowed Sonic at times -- the opposite extreme of Amy having too little. And I just couldn't see girls being interested in her. At times she felt very condescending towards girls or in other instances, Mary-Sueish. And I hated how she often made the comics so melodramatic. But one thing I will say about Sally is she had a stronger narrative than Amy who was little more than a boy-chaser destined to never get anywhere.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say even Mina Mongoose and Fiona Fox had a stronger narratives than Amy (crazy I know). A traveling pop star, and a troubled, thug, ex-girlfriend causing trouble sound like more interesting ways for a love interest to shake up a story or be involved than just... being some pre-teen with an obsessive crush.

You're right in the sense Amy was grandfathered in. But also bear in mind Japan had more traditionalist views for what they wanted in a girl character. They wanted a classic shonen girl who was more or less relegated to the background or being a damsel a lot of the time. and a "Minnie Mouse" to Sonic's "Mickey". Very outdated ideas, that as you can see aren't standing the tests of time at all. Amy isn't a "bad" character, in the sense she technically works within the world she was designed for. But she often feels forced and doesn't feel like she qualifies to have the amount of spotlight she does. If you're going to be a female lead, you need to have more going for you than an obsessive crush. This is Sonic, not Yandere Simulator.

[StaticMania]

Amy is the female lead...

Because she was created to be in the very 1st Sonic the Hedgehog sequel.

[Kuzu]

15 minutes ago, Rienasketch said:

Thats not entirely true. SEGA DID recognize Sally at one point, and was initially going to try pushing for Sally to have her own series, games, cartoons, etc. Thats why they made Archie do that Sally miniseries thing. But she didnt prove successful enough for the demographics they wanted. And she was part of SEGA world.

They knew who she was. SoJ just didnt want her. And when they rose more in power, non Japanese characters got the snuff. According to Chris Senn, Tiara's creator, there was a lot of culture wars, racism and sabotage that went on at SEGA.

Granted, I dont think I would have wanted Sally as a female lead. Hell, I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea to have "one" female lead. One might argue she had too much presence to the point she overshadowed Sonic at times -- the opposite extreme of Amy having too little. And I just couldn't see girls being interested in her. At times she felt very condescending towards girls or in other instances, Mary-Sueish. And I hated how she often made the comics so melodramatic. But one thing I will say about Sally is she had a stronger narrative than Amy who was little more than a boy-chaser destined to never get anywhere.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say even Mina Mongoose and Fiona Fox had a stronger narratives than Amy (crazy I know). A traveling pop star, and a troubled, thug, ex-girlfriend causing trouble sound like more interesting ways for a love interest to shake up a story or be involved than just... being some pre-teen with an obsessive crush.

You're right in the sense Amy was grandfathered in. But also bear in mind Japan had more traditionalist views for what they wanted in a girl character. They wanted a classic shonen girl who was more or less relegated to the background or being a damsel a lot of the time. and a "Minnie Mouse" to Sonic's "Mickey". Very outdated ideas, that as you can see aren't standing the tests of time at all. Amy isn't a "bad" character, in the sense she technically works within the world she was designed for. But she often feels forced and doesn't feel like she qualifies to have the amount of spotlight she does. If you're going to be a female lead, you need to have more going for you than an obsessive crush. This is Sonic, not Yandere Simulator.

While Sally is often mishandled by writers, she occupies a niche no other character, besides possibly Shadow, has.

A strong willed foil who can stand up to Sonic's bull headed attitude and even reign him in when needed.  It may sound obnoxious, but when you have a free spirited character like Sonic who acts as he pleases without much regard for anyone else, you need a more grounded character to balance him out.

Tails is too young, Knuckles isn't around often enough, and nobody takes Amy seriously. 

Sally was designed to basically fill the holes in Sonic's personality, something Amy was never meant to do. 

I'm not gonna hold it against Amy, since she was designed for a much more limited role and she just fell into her current one, but I really wish they would move her past it. Either explore a relationship with her and Sonic or drop the one sided crush altogether if nothing will ever come from it. 

[Rienasketch]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

While Sally is often mishandled by writers, she occupies a niche no other character, besides possibly Shadow, has.

A strong willed foil who can stand up to Sonic's bull headed attitude and even reign him in when needed.  It may sound obnoxious, but when you have a free spirited character like Sonic who acts as he pleases without much regard for anyone else, you need a more grounded character to balance him out.

Tails is too young, Knuckles isn't around often enough, and nobody takes Amy seriously. 

Sally was designed to basically fill the holes in Sonic's personality, something Amy was never meant to do. 

I'm not gonna hold it against Amy, since she was designed for a much more limited role and she just fell into her current one, but I really wish they would move her past it. Either explore a relationship with her and Sonic or drop the one sided crush altogether if nothing will ever come from it. 

 

On the flip Sally caused as many problems as she solved. She was "too" grounded and dutiful, which made trying to include into the story after awhile a headache. Then she made the series extremely melodramatic, to an unnecessary level. When we weren't dedicating issues to her royal problems, it was her being depressed over Sonic and some love interest or her making out with an adult skunk 10 years older than her. Just no. As a girl I remember feeling like I couldn't relate to her at all and as an adult there are certain things written about her that still annoy if not disturb me.

If Sally were more downplayed, Sonic having multiple love interests probably would have went the way of Ranma or Tenchi -- more lighter hearted, which would have felt more appropriate for the series. I just didn't see the need to dramatically "solve" love triangles or whatever when SEGA wasn't going to allow an official girlfriend. But Archie just kept pushing with it to annoying levels.

I'd also go as far as to say other characters in the past HAVE stood their ground against Sonic, and that includes both Fiona and Mina, along with various other Freedom Fighters and friends such as Tails. Its just that their ability to do so is often downplayed to flandarize Sally "balancing" Sonic as the "voice of reason". And even with Sally, if Sonic doesn't want to do something she can't make him without trying to use her authority as a royal.

It felt like the series didn't NEED Sally as much as an active leader anymore. But like Amy she got shoehorned in because of plot armor.

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not gonna hold it against Amy, since she was designed for a much more limited role and she just fell into her current one, but I really wish they would move her past it. Either explore a relationship with her and Sonic or drop the one sided crush altogether if nothing will ever come from it. 

If they're not going move her past being a running gag character, thats their prerogative, but they need to downplay her and introduce other female characters. Its 2022. People don't want female leads who are relegated to just chasing after boys. Amy's essentially becoming a dinosaur of the times at this point. Its like they're trying to make her Dot Warner, but she isn't funny. And at least with Dot she wasn't relegated to a single crush and could do other things.

[StaticMania]

3 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

Its 2022. People don't want female leads who are relegated to just chasing after boys.

This is totally a thing.

Can't believe it.

Extremely relative to the year a product is existing.

[Rienasketch]

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

This is totally a thing.

Can't believe it.

Extremely relative to the year a product is existing.

 

Amy was the byproduct of people who were more conservative and had traditional values in what they wanted in female characters. Hell, its obvious SEGA didn't even take Amy seriously. She was just supposed to be a gag character as evidenced by them reducing her age to 8. She wasn't a serious love interest -- it would've been more disturbing if she was one given the original age gap -- she was just supposed to be a plucky little fan like Tails, except with a crush -- hence why she was essentially treated as such by the comics until Sonic Adventure. And that would've been fine, but they wanted to elevate this kind of character, but not her limited story potential by relegating her that tightly to Sonic. Amy was better than Sally in the sense, she didn't need to downplay other characters to exist, but is too weak a concept to be given the title of female lead.

[Dr. Mechano]

What's weird is that the series seemed to quietly make them dating in the late 2000s and then just as quietly reversed course.

You can agree to date her in Unleashed, and while that's just a player-input choice and thus may not be "canon" exactly, Black Knight has Amy upset that Sonic missed their date. He doesn't deny that they had a date, he simply tries to explain why he wasn't there. According to SatBK, they're dating. 

Then a few years later in Lost World, Amy's all, "I never got the chance to say..." Implicitly, this is about her romantic feelings for Sonic, which she has certainly said. Repeatedly. Constantly.

A kind of soft-reset to Sonic's and Amy's relationship seems to have happened. But for a brief window of time, it really seems like they started officially dating with pretty much zero fanfare made of it.

[Razule]

Them going on a date doesn't necessarily mean they were in a relationship, just that Sonic miraculously agreed to one. 

It's weird. They aged her up in Adventure, I assume to make ship-teasing them not completely inappropriate even if it was still never going to happen, but her being 12 and him being 15 makes the gap just wide enough that it's still weird imo. 

I know the ages don't really matter for anyone older than Tails, but I think it reflects how much her role's changed in the last 20 years from "fan girl who Sonic runs away from" to "Sonic's trusted ally and the female lead who he's mutually interested in" while she's still officially not even a teenager.

If they do decide one day to make them a thing, then they really should consider retconning her age again.

[StaticMania]

They aged Sonic down...by One.

Is legit.

[Rienasketch]

12 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

What's weird is that the series seemed to quietly make them dating in the late 2000s and then just as quietly reversed course.

You can agree to date her in Unleashed, and while that's just a player-input choice and thus may not be "canon" exactly, Black Knight has Amy upset that Sonic missed their date. He doesn't deny that they had a date, he simply tries to explain why he wasn't there. According to SatBK, they're dating. 

Then a few years later in Lost World, Amy's all, "I never got the chance to say..." Implicitly, this is about her romantic feelings for Sonic, which she has certainly said. Repeatedly. Constantly.

A kind of soft-reset to Sonic's and Amy's relationship seems to have happened. But for a brief window of time, it really seems like they started officially dating with pretty much zero fanfare made of it.

 

These are the same people who OK'ed writing Tails OOC in forces by conveniently making him to forget how to fight for himself, sulk in hiding when he did the opposite in SA2, etc. And lets not forget SEGA telling fans team dark werent friends. They aren't particularly known for consistent writing anymore. And its clear members of Sonic Team have different opinions on how far Amy's role should extend. They can't decide whether they just want her to be the fangirl he runs from as a gag or someone he may date. The problem with Amy's role in particular that she revolves around something not even the creators can agree on. To the point they often contradict each other. 

With girls like Sally, there was at least a clear idea of where the character was supposed to stand, even if people didn't agree with it. Both as a leader and Sonic's love interest -- even if they weren't always dating. If a writer didn't like her with Sonic or wanted to downplay her they could do that, but they had to at the very least acknowledge her foundation. "who" Sally was, when they made a decision. But when you have a character with a role as flip floppy as Amy, with so many writers debating "who" she should be to Sonic -- especially in terms of her personality its hard to keep the character herself consistent. And she's had some very radically different portrayals as a result. She's gone from an little kid with a schoolgirl crush, a somewhat more mature, albiet energetic girl with just a crush, a delusional stalker used as a running gag, etc. Again, not particularly consistent. They don't know who they want Amy to be in terms of her personality it seems. whereas with Sally, you at the very least had a good idea of who she was and how she should be portrayed if that makes sense.

 

 

 

[Dr. Mechano]

Sally isn't from the games (except Spinnall) though.

Like, it's fine if you prefer her but she's relegated solely to a cartoon, a comic, and a brief cameo in Spinball that doesn't imply anything about her and Sonic's relationship.

Sally is undeniably important to SatAM Sonic and Archie Sonic. To game Sonic, Sally is basically a non-entity. She's a random person he rescued from the Veg-O-Fortress and likely never interacted with ever again.

Honestly, it's difficult to imagine game Sonic seriously dating or settling down with anybody. He comes off as far more aloof and carefree than his early spinoff counterparts, and has never really expressed serious romantic interest in anyone over the games' 30 years - the implication that he and Amy were dating in Black Knight notwithstanding as a weird outlier that felt kind of out-of-nowhere even back then.

I also don't think the supposed consistency in Sally's portrayals (I say supposed because she was pretty all over the place over Archie's long run) reflects anything inherent to her character. Amy could be written more consistently. Most of the Game characters could. Inconsistency is just a problem across the board with this franchise.

[Scritch the Cat]

To call back to a debate I had with@Kuzuin the Sonic Frontiers thread, arguably most if not all of the cast aren't "good" characters in a broader literary sense, but oftentimes this doesn't matter because there's not enough focus on story to get annoyed at them.  Amy is one of relatively few Sonic characters that tends to get regarded as "annoying" rather than just "unremarkable", though recently she's been stuck more into unremarkable territory.  Which...isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Replies to follow...

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:10 AM, Dr. Mechano said:

None of these things really detract from her being a "good character," do they?

They're flaws. Something a well-rounded character kinda needs, right?

Amy has good points: She's kind, she's determined, she's mostly positive. But she flaws: She's pushy, can lose focus on what's important, and is often rather clingy with Sonic.

But these flaws are part of what make her her. Now, I think some games exaggerate these traits to the point that they overshadow everything else about her... and conversely, more recent games like Forces downplay these traits so much that she just comes off as kind of a bland non-entity. But when the balance is right, I think Amy's a good character.

You know, I used to subscribe to that logic, but after a few too many Miraculous Ladybug fans using that defense for what I consider totally indefensible aspects of that show's protagonists, I don't think I do anymore.  A well-rounded character should not be perfect, but there are other ways to avoid perfection than giving a character overt flaws.  Flaws aren't necessarily a bad way, but when characters' flaws become virtually indistinguishable from their motives and they don't even consider them flaws, they can become very obnoxious.  It's just as viable a way to make the character not the best at everything, and that's how they do it with most game characters.  This is partially because video games, as narrative media go, still make a disproportional use of external conflict over internal conflict.  You might think it's dull to make Amy just "the girl" on the team, and I would agree she needs a bit more identity than just her gender, but I don't think she needs much more to do the sort of Sonic plot that nobody resents, which is the sort where characters only struggle against enemies rather than their own vices. 

On 8/13/2022 at 10:26 PM, ART-DX said:

I personally don't think that Amy has any problem in the way she is, I like her tomboy mixed with little lady attitude and the way that she handles most of the stuff.

I see very often people calling her annoying, but most people forget that she is 12 years old! She is a young teenager pursuing her love! And that was the primary reason some people loved her. What she needs is the same thing that all characters except Sonic, Tails and Eggman needed since 2010, screen time and getting out of the Seinfield Madness that was Pontac and the Graff writing.

Sorry but while I can't speak for most of the fanbase, I personally hate the canon ages in this series.  I don't like series freezing characters at an age in general, but in most series I understand why they do it.  Characters have to be a certain age to work in certain scenarios; for example, Elementary School, High School, office jobs, etc.  When they're human, age is also more apparent so it is theoretically an effective way to make them relatable to others of their age.  But as @Roger_van_der_weidehas stated in several videos, many cartoon animals are visually above such age tropes, and the Sonic characters almost never do the things their supposed ages mean for other characters.  Of the many minors in the cast, Cream is the only one who lives with (or by all evidence, even has) a parent.  None of  these anthropomorphic animals go to any type of school.  Tails is supposedly 8 but he runs a workshop and lives alone at least some times.  Amy is supposedly 12 but lives in an apartment and goes grocery shopping.  Sonic is supposedly a teenager but he's not mandated to live with parents or any permanent place, doesn't go to High School, and doesn't have any budding sexuality.  Thus the only reason SEGA gives these characters canon ages is to justify some of them acting immature, and again, that's divisive.  Maybe it's interesting to some people, but does that justify how annoying it is to everyone else?  I kind of doubt it.

As for Amy's particular sort of youthful flaws...they haven't aged well.  I think for quite a while, pretentious, singleminded and unrequited crushes were regarded as a quaint trope of youth akin to having imaginary friends, something that they'll grow out of but shouldn't be shamed while it lasts.  But after some high-profile cases of people who never grew out of that mindset, like CWC and even worse, Elliot Roger, the public perception has started to change on this; now there's a perceived need to drag people out of that naive delusion.  It's getting harder and harder to accept someone who refuses to accept that no means no and still gets called one of the heroes, especially with how uncomfortably similar she seems to the stereotypical obnoxious Sonic fan in real life.  Amy's crush on Sonic is, by design, in an anti-Goldilocks zone now.  She's not allowed to succeed at winning Sonic over due to mandates put in place to keep Sonic from becoming the nearly unrecognizable mess Ken Penders tried to turn it into, but she's not allowed to get over him and move on because...they can't think of anything else for her to do, maybe?  Either way, that means that pretty much everyone will find something to resent about Amy's crush on Sonic.  If you don't support it you'll be annoyed it's still there, but if you do, you'll be annoyed that its destined for failure every time.

And then there's the gender component.  It's become far less culturally acceptable to have a female character's entire motives be defined by her romantic interest in a male character, and also far less culturally acceptable to maintain a double standard about which sex can abuse which.  It's not just males who can abuse females, or give them unwanted attention, or refuse to take no for an answer.  It can and does work the other way, too.

Stalking is creepy.  It can work as comedy, especially when the stalker gets hit with comeuppance the way Johnny Bravo often is, but it is not endearing and it's not a good look on the character who is supposed to be the main heroine, at least sometimes.

[Eggman Fan]

Adventure Amy isn't my favorite, but like with most of that era's characters, I do consider her good.

Current game Amy makes me rip my nose off.

[Diogenes]

32 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Sonic is supposedly a teenager but he's not mandated to live with parents or any permanent place, doesn't go to High School,

True of most animals, though.

It's a fantasy, y'know. That at (insert your age here) maybe you, too, are smart enough and tough enough to make it on your own and maybe even change the world, just like your favorite fictional characters. Granted most of us are well beyond that age, but it's still nice to imagine we could've done it back then, before our bones creaked every time we stood up.

56 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

But after some high-profile cases of people who never grew out of that mindset, like CWC and even worse, Elliot Roger

I think it's a bit much to be drawing comparisons between a fictional 12 year old's crush and an incel who went on a shooting spree, dude. It is a subject that deserves some honest thought and more careful use, to be fair, and I do think they went a bit far with Amy in a few cases, but you seem ready to throw out the entire concept of unrequited feelings as a narrative element or character trait.

37 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Either way, that means that pretty much everyone will find something to resent about Amy's crush on Sonic.  If you don't support it you'll be annoyed it's still there, but if you do, you'll be annoyed that its destined for failure every time.

Sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination. There's not likely to be any major shake-ups to the status quo for any of the characters, and that can be frustrating, but I don't think we'd be gaining anything by stripping characters of goals just because we won't see them be achieved.

[Scritch the Cat]

19 hours ago, Diogenes said:

True of most animals, though.

It's a fantasy, y'know. That at (insert your age here) maybe you, too, are smart enough and tough enough to make it on your own and maybe even change the world, just like your favorite fictional characters. Granted most of us are well beyond that age, but it's still nice to imagine we could've done it back then, before our bones creaked every time we stood up.

Bah; the older I get, the more I hate what a damned lie it is.

19 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I think it's a bit much to be drawing comparisons between a fictional 12 year old's crush and an incel who went on a shooting spree, dude. It is a subject that deserves some honest thought and more careful use, to be fair, and I do think they went a bit far with Amy in a few cases, but you seem ready to throw out the entire concept of unrequited feelings as a narrative element or character trait.

I don't mind if she still has a crush on Sonic, but I do mind if she keeps pestering him about it.

19 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination. There's not likely to be any major shake-ups to the status quo for any of the characters, and that can be frustrating, but I don't think we'd be gaining anything by stripping characters of goals just because we won't see them be achieved.

All that demonstrates is that it's stupid to define heroes by their desire to change the status quo in series where the status quo doesn't change.  This is why the vast majority of the time, it's the villains who have the major agendas in these sorts of series, and the heroes simply react to them.  Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and in fact, most of the heroes in this series have characterizations that actually work within its constraints because they don't desire something they don't have.  They have things they enjoy doing that they will never be done with enjoying doing.

Also again, the degree to which people tolerate someone striving for a goal but never reaching it depends on how noble that goal is.  People accept that Batman will never rid Gotham City of crime but they still appreciate that he tries because it would be even worse without him trying.  But nothing positive comes out of Amy harassing Sonic.  Except her becoming more athletic, I guess.  But if that development sticks, then the original goal should just be abandoned.  It's plot baggage from the Adventure era that isn't really relevant anymore, and even many people who prefer the Adventure era find that part annoying.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

If you don't support it you'll be annoyed it's still there, but if you do, you'll be annoyed that its destined for failure every time.

Apparently this is only an extreme 50/50 scenario...

I support it 100% and am completely fine with the fact that they'll never get together because relationships are gross and icky.

 

Quote

I don't mind if she still has a crush on Sonic, but I do mind if she keeps pestering him about it.

She doesn't...

To stress this as a pretty common thing that people kept missing, until Heroes...her Crush is barely mentioned in Adventure 1 & 2.

Since Sonic Generations her Crush on Sonic is so low-key that it might not even show up at all.

It's pretty cute imagery to see Amy chase Sonic around, but she never does that in the games, because her crush is never that relevant. It's just a representation.

[Razule]

The characters' worst interpretations can feel a lot more prominent than they are when they're some of the most memorable, but we really gotta keep in mind some of these games are like 10 or 20 years old. Would think Sonic Heroes came out yesterday the way people still talk about her. But I guess that's SEGA's fault when she hasn't had a substantial appearance people liked since, uh.. Sonic Unleashed?

[Kuzu]

Amy barely does anything of note in the games, so its not shocking her bad moments tend to stick out more. That's true of anything. 

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Bah; the older I get, the more I hate what a damned lie it is.

Then you should move on from power fantasies aimed at children.

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

All that demonstrates is that it's stupid to define heroes by their desire to change the status quo in series where the status quo doesn't change.  This is why the vast majority of the time, it's the villains who have the desires to change the major agendas in these sorts of series, and the heroes simply react to them.  Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and in fact, most of the heroes in this series have characterizations that actually work within its constraints because they don't desire something they don't have.  They have things they enjoy doing that they will never be done with enjoying doing.

I find Amy's enduring affection sort of endearing even if I'm aware she's not going to achieve her goals. To love someone that much for their good traits is sweet, and not something the series needs less of. You could say they should tone down the funny stalker aspects and I wouldn't disagree....except they already did that, so I'm not sure what people want from her.

 

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Also again, the degree to which people tolerate someone striving for a goal but never reaching it depends on how noble that goal is.  People accept that Batman will never rid Gotham City of crime but they still appreciate that he tries because it would be even worse without him trying.  But nothing positive comes out of Amy harassing Sonic.  Except her becoming more athletic, I guess.  But if that development sticks, then the original goal should just be abandoned.  It's plot baggage from the Adventure era that isn't really relevant anymore, and even many people who prefer the Adventure era find that part annoying.

Sonic actually seems to like having Amy around, there are just parts that are too much for him. The parts of her that catch him off guard are good because we rarely see that side of Sonic, and anyone that can dig something new out of your main character is worth having around.

One of the main signs of characters getting boring in this series is when they stop getting a meaningful reaction out of the main character imo. Shadow was at his best when he brought out Sonic's competitive side, for instance. Knuckles is at his best when him and Sonic are ribbing eachother etc.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Amy barely does anything of note in the games, so its not shocking her bad moments tend to stick out more. That's true of anything. 

I do not agree here. She's been on several full-scale adventures with Sonic and the gang as an active combatant. While SA1 mostly has her running away from danger (sans the fight at the end where she steps up and beats Zero), the entire Advance trilogy shows her as a capable platforming hero in her own right. Heroes and 06 follow suit by giving her playable roles as well.

While it's true that her playable prominence dropped after this, I mean... it kinda dropped across the board for everybody, as the series went hard into the "Sonic only" era for most games. But prior to that, Amy was being treated as one of the big main supporting heroes, on par with Tails and Knuckles.

So it's understandable that Amy fans might feel a little miffed at what they lost since then. Amy was an active adventurer like Sonic for the better part of the 00s, and then she just wasn't anymore. I get how that'd be frustrating.