Thoughts on SEGA unifying the Sonic brand

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I don't know why we have to look at this so black-and-white. I mean, sure, SEGA does sometimes, but they're extremely fickle, you can't take them at their word. I feel like acknowledgment and incorporation of extra canonical Sonic properties and the Sonic brand being consistent can coexist. It's not like this isn't basically what we've had since like 2016. Unless this means the IDW comics are either going to die forever or suddenly become canon to the games, what difference does it make? They're already full of reinventions of what were previously considered radical departures from the games, and they'll probably get more with time, especially when we're already seeing SEGA's standards for things like timelines and the presence of humans change. I mean, we can see they're bringing back fucking Witchcart for the new Tails special, and Skypatrol isn't exactly a well-known first-party Sonic Team venture (I had to look up who made it when writing this, and I had still never heard of Biox and SIMS).

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Starnik said:

That’s exactly how I would describe the diehard fans. So no different honestly. I don’t think Sonic Team or Sega will ever do what they want and they will always disappoint them, whether out of incompetence or ignorance.

 

As mentioned, it literally does not matter either way, so there's no harm in pushing it.

[Mega]

I mean, for me, I'm biased because the games weren't my introduction to Sonic. SatAM was. I found out about the games later, so my relationship to the franchise was built under different circumstances. I didn't even get to play the Adventure games until 2003 or 2004, so until that point VHS rentals of the DiC cartoons were the main foundation of the Sonic series, along with downloading very low quality RealPlayer uploads of the show's USA cut of the episodes (19 minute ones).

So the games were fun, and I enjoyed them and I could tell they were different, but everything about who Sonic was for me was shaped more by Jaleel White.

Every Sonic fan's experience and introduction to the series is different, and while I absolutely get that the games are the flagship of the franchise, it can also be a bit saddening to see the different continuities dissed for not being "game accurate," 'cause I guess for me, it's like... yeah, and? Because when I look at series like TMNT, the various animated DC properties, Beast Wars vs Transformers Animated vs Transformers Prime, I just think to myself, "sometimes franchises have very different takes," haha.

So on the one hand, I get the appeal of a more unified series with the games and the comics, and I think if IDW were to cross over with the games, that'd be pretty neat. But I just wish SEGA wasn't so opposed to letting concepts and characters from older versions of Sonic see new light. Ian Flynn and co. already proved they could do awesome things with characters like Breezie. Hell, I would've loved to see what Ian's vision for the Underground finale coulda been.

I just feel like there's room to appeal to more sides of the fandom w/o that same alienation, y'know? Sometimes it feels like there's a lot of "ew western Sonic" and "ew game Sonic" and I just think.... boooth are fine and just have different appeals?

[Wraith]

I actually consider AOSTH and SAT AM decent enough watches compared to the more game accurate X so I know game accuracy doesn't guarantee quality. I'm sort of indifferent on what direction they go with this since I'd enjoy a well realized AU like Archie as much as something closer to the games like IDW. 

I just think Sega realized there wasn't much of a point of an adaptation if there wasn't much of a through line IE: if you came off of Sonic adventure wanting to see more of Shadow and Rouge but got Sonic's siblings instead. There's no brand synergy if there isn't any synergy. 

As for why the FANS are so tribalistic about it...I don't have a clue, especially since the Sonic Team Approved comic people have been begging for is what's being made right now. 

 

[Kuzu]

43 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I just think Sega realized there wasn't much of a point of an adaptation if there wasn't much of a through line IE: if you came off of Sonic adventure wanting to see more of Shadow and Rouge but got Sonic's siblings instead. There's no brand synergy if there isn't any synergy. 

This is probably the only legitimate reasoning I can see for Sega trying to unify everything.

Shows like SATAM, AOSTH or the movies don't necessarily mesh with the universe established by the games.

[azoo]

I don't have a problem with some canon immigration. I really like how Reboot!Archie was handling a lot of this; finding ways to make characters and elements of the different shows or previous comics make sense in a context much closer to the game series. While occasionally convoluted, I feel like a lot of it was really smart or fun additions to the stories and lore.

And it's also not like I don't know some of these shows are appealing on their own factors, or can't also flub up when trying for accuracy. I grew up with a mild fondness for SatAM and an adoration for the OVA and AoSTH, meanwhile X fell flat on it's face trying to interest me. Though tbf, a lot of why it didn't work was because it did make it's own ludicrous changes, like Chris, the human planet / sonic planet shit, or the characters getting flanderized, so.... hm.

The obvious answer is to make a good thing over an accurate thing if you have to, but I've never seen why the resulting answer always was "so we'll just make something entirely different". There's nothing that should've inherently stopped many of these shows from resembling the source material, they just... didn't. For basically no reason. And every one of these franchise pockets, no matter good or bad, is always gonna have it's fans that get them into the series first. So while I respect that for people, it makes it harder for me to think of these things existing being more important than if Sega just tried harder with these takes at being a Sonic thing. They could've just as easily been a similar thing that did a better job at it, and still roped those same fans in. Idk.

Anyways, I heavily support what Sega is doing now with IDW and Prime; content that actually resembles the material it's from without having to adhere 100% to Sega's (sometimes pretty dumb) canon. Feels more necessary than ever to have a baseline after the films just kinda went way over there with Sonic's identity.

[Kuzu]

To be entirely fair, and Ian Flynn touched upon that. When dealing with a licensed property, you basically have no say in changing anything about the brand itself. Depending on what type of creator you are, this is incredibly stifling for creativity.

Knuckles literally isn't allowed to do anything unless its in the context of guarding Angel Island (nevermind the fact that Sega have never had any problem ignoring that in most of his appearances) and we all know the situation with Shadow.

Creating your own content gives you much more freedom and investment in the product you're producing.

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah as someone who enjoyed both Sonic movies on their own merits, I can't say I want it influencing the main pillar much, if at all. Tiny things like the lightning eyes thing is a neat effect and is innocuous enough for me, but Sonic the self-aware Gen Alpha reference machine alien is not the direction I want to see the series drifting towards. Like it or not, though, the movie is going to have a colossal impact on the series and its fans for years to come there's just no getting around that and I'm wary of how much division this'll stoke in the next decade.

[Mega]

I think another factor is... SatAM and AoStH and even Archie ended up the way they were because that's what SEGA of America wanted for the brand.

SEGA wanted to make Sonic more appealing to the west, so they made a completely different series bible and baseline canon for both the US and Europe, which I think did happen to some other video game IPs, but was most prevalent with Sonic?

I got a hunch that if SatAM were to continue, it would've gradually brought in more game characters and elements, and SEGA would've probably gradually had a say over what happened with the show...

But then again, YEARS went by with Archie being Ken's personal playground even after the Adventure titles released, so it seems like SEGA didn't care as much what spinoffs did for eons.

[azoo]

45 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

To be entirely fair, and Ian Flynn touched upon that. When dealing with a licensed property, you basically have no say in changing anything about the brand itself. Depending on what type of creator you are, this is incredibly stifling for creativity.

Knuckles literally isn't allowed to do anything unless its in the context of guarding Angel Island (nevermind the fact that Sega have never had any problem ignoring that in most of his appearances) and we all know the situation with Shadow.

Creating your own content gives you much more freedom and investment in the product you're producing.

Sure, but then you might as well make a new thing altogether if that's what you're worried about.

IE mandates, it's not like you can't work around these limitations. That's Ian's entire job, and he's done fairly decent-to-well with what he's given. A lot of it comes together in interesting ways and the rules (whether you like said rules or not) don't get punctured. Say with Knuckles, you could always create scenarios related to Angel Island. Something going down on the island, some plot point that requires the Master Emerald, things about the echidna tribes or hidden civilizations not spoken of before, something that forces the island to fall and/or forces it out of the picture which pushes Knux out of his comfort zone to join the gang, or even if it's just other characters visiting the island for Knuckles's occasional wisdom lol. You could even have other characters (Rouge, Eggman, Hooligans etc) take the emerald for themselves and he has to make chase, or Sonic and friends bargain with him to have someone protect it while he reluctantly steps off. There's still a lot you can do. You have your limits, and now you bend them as much as you're allowed. All it takes is an open mind and elbow grease.

Working within those limitations to make something richer I feel like is the much smarter route than creating a whole 'nother wild-take product that splinters off even more fans. The positive may be that it gets to be what it wants to be more (and maybe (maybe!) gets to stand stronger on it's own), but that just brings me back to my first point. Meanwhile the negative is that the soupy question of "what is a Sonic?" only continues to muddy up and it gives people who like Sonic for what it is otherwise (the games) basically nothing to care about.

Maybe this matters less to some fans (and how Sega used to be), treating Sonic more like TMNT where you can just make a million different AUs and it's all good. But Sega's new unifying approach feels more like how Mario or even most video game IPs are carried where they want a strong central identity, which I prefer. So it's a matter of taste on this I guess, and different strokes 'n all that, but I'm not gonna lie: I like being catered to on this for once. lol

[Zaysho]

29 minutes ago, azoo said:

IE mandates, it's not like you can't work around these limitations. That's Ian's entire job, and he's done fairly decent-to-well with what he's given. A lot of it comes together in interesting ways and the rules (whether you like said rules or not) don't get punctured. Say with Knuckles, you could always create scenarios related to Angel Island. Something going down on the island, some plot point that requires the Master Emerald, things about the echidna tribes or hidden civilizations not spoken of before, something that forces the island to fall and/or forces it out of the picture which pushes Knux out of his comfort zone to join the gang, or even if it's just other characters visiting the island for Knuckles's occasional wisdom lol. You could even have other characters (Rouge, Eggman, Hooligans etc) take the emerald for themselves and he has to make chase, or Sonic and friends bargain with him to have someone protect it while he reluctantly steps off. There's still a lot you can do. You have your limits, and now you bend them as much as you're allowed. All it takes is an open mind and elbow grease.

I agree with this because it's what we should be getting but there doesn't seem to be much indication any of that stuff is allowed to be explored either. At least not until the games touch upon it in some fashion, and then it's free real estate. Like the Archie comic was going places with the different ancient civilizations fighting over the Chaos Emeralds and relating it all back to Knuckles's history (and probably subtly alluding to Chronicles without directly using it for obvious reasons) but the IDW comic isn't really focused on worldbuilding or side story stuff that has nothing to do with an ongoing plot. It's true there's a lot you can do, and Ian is a great writer who can pull from that, but we don't even know if he'll be allowed to any time soon.

 

I'm mostly torn on the "unified" approach because there's good and bad that comes with it. Even as someone who started with Sonic 2 on the Genesis when he was five, I think what kept me interested in Sonic was the comics and other media. I don't really have much issue with other media doing their own thing even if I agree the Sega stuff should still have priority in the narrative. It's why I liked Archie during Ian's run and in particular during the reboot because it was that. I can appreciate the "everything and the kitchen sink" approach since everything was given an appropriate makeover to fit into the games' universe, or to fill niches left with the lawsuit (see Breezie taking over for Mogul) and it also did something important for the games by grounding them in a single setting. It could look weird or jarring mashing that all together, but it just felt right with what Sonic was to me.

Lately the series seems like it's just become more sterile and while there's nothing outlandish or dumb like we got in Boom or whatever (I guess there's the movies but those at least appear to be an exception), it just doesn't feel like there's anything super interesting to work with anymore either. Who knows, I might just be burned out or too old to care anymore, I can see why new stuff in IDW appeals to people or even the movies but all of it just feels safe and boring lately while Sega tries to dangle some shiny keys in our faces now and then with Adventure fanservice in Japan-only short stories.

 

32 minutes ago, Mega said:

But then again, YEARS went by with Archie being Ken's personal playground even after the Adventure titles released, so it seems like SEGA didn't care as much what spinoffs did for eons.

 

Archie is a weird beast because it sounds like Sega just straight up didn't allow them to use game stuff after the Adventure titles for a long time. And even during Adventure/2, they weren't given materials to work with to update the comic—Spaz bought his own Japanese Dreamcast and played through the game so they had some notes. Bollers pitched for including Cream and Omega when they were new but nothing came of it and Ian had to keep trying for Omega. Cream only came into the regular book after X ended because for some reason she was tied up with X. It's not really accurate to say Archie was just Penders's personal playground (and even he was getting clamped down on later which is why he ultimately quit anyway) because there was way more going on and other writers involved.

[azoo]

Quote

 

I agree with this because it's what we should be getting but there doesn't seem to be much indication any of that stuff is allowed to be explored either. At least not until the games touch upon it in some fashion, and then it's free real estate. Like the Archie comic was going places with the different ancient civilizations fighting over the Chaos Emeralds and relating it all back to Knuckles's history (and probably subtly alluding to Chronicles without directly using it for obvious reasons) but the IDW comic isn't really focused on worldbuilding or side story stuff that has nothing to do with an ongoing plot. It's true there's a lot you can do, and Ian is a great writer who can pull from that, but we don't even know if he'll be allowed to any time soon.

I'm mostly torn on the "unified" approach because there's good and bad that comes with it. Even as someone who started with Sonic 2 on the Genesis when he was five, I think what kept me interested in Sonic was the comics and other media. I don't really have much issue with other media doing their own thing even if I agree the Sega stuff should still have priority in the narrative. It's why I liked Archie during Ian's run and in particular during the reboot because it was that. I can appreciate the "everything and the kitchen sink" approach since everything was given an appropriate makeover to fit into the games' universe, or to fill niches left with the lawsuit (see Breezie taking over for Mogul) and it also did something important for the games by grounding them in a single setting. It could look weird or jarring mashing that all together, but it just felt right with what Sonic was to me.

Lately the series seems like it's just become more sterile and while there's nothing outlandish or dumb like we got in Boom or whatever (I guess there's the movies but those at least appear to be an exception), it just doesn't feel like there's anything super interesting to work with anymore either. Who knows, I might just be burned out or too old to care anymore, I can see why new stuff in IDW appeals to people or even the movies but all of it just feels safe and boring lately while Sega tries to dangle some shiny keys in our faces now and then with Adventure fanservice in Japan-only short stories.

 

No yeah I agree with what you're saying wholeheartedly. I think my point is mostly that a unifying approach is the right call and a step in the right direction. Sega's execution on it however may be a different story, but when is it not? That's just the eternal, unfortunate truth of liking a series led by them.

Can't really knock them for trying though. Especially since I feel like we don't really ever seem to know what's on the table or not. Sometimes crazy things can just happen (like the zombot virus thing) while little minor stuff about what Vector can do at 2:37pm or how Sonic says a sentence gets blocked off. It's a shit-shot from the outside perspective so I try not to fret it.

[Kuzu]

40 minutes ago, azoo said:

Sure, but then you might as well make a new thing altogether if that's what you're worried about.

IE mandates, it's not like you can't work around these limitations. That's Ian's entire job, and he's done fairly decent-to-well with what he's given. A lot of it comes together in interesting ways and the rules (whether you like said rules or not) don't get punctured. Say with Knuckles, you could always create scenarios related to Angel Island. Something going down on the island, some plot point that requires the Master Emerald, things about the echidna tribes or hidden civilizations not spoken of before, something that forces the island to fall and/or forces it out of the picture which pushes Knux out of his comfort zone to join the gang, or even if it's just other characters visiting the island for Knuckles's occasional wisdom lol. You could even have other characters (Rouge, Eggman, Hooligans etc) take the emerald for themselves and he has to make chase, or Sonic and friends bargain with him to have someone protect it while he reluctantly steps off. There's still a lot you can do. You have your limits, and now you bend them as much as you're allowed. All it takes is an open mind and elbow grease.

Working within those limitations to make something richer I feel like is the much smarter route than creating a whole 'nother wild-take product that splinters off even more fans. The positive may be that it gets to be what it wants to be more (and maybe (maybe!) gets to stand stronger on it's own), but that just brings me back to my first point. Meanwhile the negative is that the soupy question of "what is a Sonic?" only continues to muddy up and it gives people who like Sonic for what it is otherwise (the games) basically nothing to care about.

Maybe this matters less to some fans (and how Sega used to be), treating Sonic more like TMNT where you can just make a million different AUs and it's all good. But Sega's new unifying approach feels more like how Mario or even most video game IPs are carried where they want a strong central identity, which I prefer. So it's a matter of taste on this I guess, and different strokes 'n all that, but I'm not gonna lie: I like being catered to on this for once. lol

I mean yea, it really just comes down to preference. You're gonna have some people who prefer the Mario approach and others want more flexibility. I don't think either side is wrong or more correct either.

 

There are some alternate takes I like, but sometimes I want something that resembles the source too. Lord knows I've endured this with Spider Man lol.

 

 

That said, I feel like Sega's way of doing it is incredibly restrictive. Especially since Ian Flynn already proved that he has a grasp of the franchise, so I don't see a point in keeping him on such a tight leash. Hopefully they loosen it after Frontiers and give him a bit more creative freedom.

[Wittymations]

I haven't exactly been impressed the way SEGA has been handling the franchise in their own games post-SA2, so I'm not exactly thrilled by the idea on its surface.

Depends on the creative freedoms people have.

[Wraith]

It seems like big lore mines like the echidna history, the sol dimension, characters's past, the history of the chaos emeralds, the nature of the phantom ruby etc etc are off limits in case Sega decides to do something with them. What we're left with with IDW is 'the further adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog' where the characters we know and like face completely new threats. Not a bad angle to take at all and I think the razor-sharp sense of focus on the now with a more compact cast has lead to some amazing moments that wouldn't have happened under Archie. 

But it's missing that grand, sweeping feeling that having so many different factions, organizations, societies and people gave you. That sense that Sonic's world had a comprehensive history that was possible to understand. The attempt to weave everything together meant that everyone who had approached the series from any angle felt validated. Character arcs were able to start from point one and weave the high points from the games with interesting new material hence fan favorite Archie Shadow. Sonic was able to form long running, consistent bonds with a large group of characters instead of remaining a distance, aspirational figure to most of the cast. 

IDW is great, but we may never get a storm as perfect as Archie Sonic again due to the brand unification and that IS a shame imo. 

 

 

[FlameStream]

In general it's not a bad idea to want to unify the brand. However, it's pretty bad when the unification results in something that is pretty bland, which is what I'm feeling right now.

The creativity window right now seems so narrow and too game-centric. IDW may be the best thing that can be done with the current situation, but while it's not bad, it's not great either.

Other people have touched it already, but the current setting restrictions don't allow any major expansion for the setting to make it feel feel alive; so it's not very appealing to work with.

[Kuzu]

It is admittedly a balancing act; people who come for Sonic don't wanna read about Sally Acorn's feelings and problems, but those fans who love the expansive lore and cast wanna read more than just Sonic smacking up robots and making quips all day.

Archie could get really bad with making Sonic feel like a secondary character in his own series while it focused on everything around him, but IDW has the opposite problem where almost everything revolves Sonic and his immediate circle of friends. Which one is the lesser of two evils depends on what exactly you want from Sonic, but I don't think it has to be an "either or" scenario.

[Starnik]

Unify the brand. Leave the weird and Cringy to fanfiction.

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, Starnik said:

Unify the brand. Leave the weird and Cringy to fanfiction.

My favorite thing about Sega purists is that they like to pretend like the shit they make isn't weird and cringy fanfiction either.

 

Or did the last 15 years of mockery over a human kissing Sonic not be an indicator.

[Starnik]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

My favorite thing about Sega purists is that they like to pretend like the shit they make isn't weird and cringy fanfiction either.

Or did the last 15 years of mockery over a human kissing Sonic not be an indicator.

Weird and cringy isn’t necessarily bad. But it’s off brand. Also Sega purist? Lol

[Kuzu]

So all of the stupid shit Sega have been doing since 1998 is fine, but anything that isn't from Sega is "weird and cringey" no matter its quality.

 

Yes, Sega purist is an apt description for that logic. 

[Starnik]

Just now, Kuzu said:

So all of the stupid shit Sega have been doing since 1998 is fine, but anything that isn't from Sega is "weird and cringey" no matter its quality.

Yes, Sega purist is an apt description for that logic. 

I’m speaking from a non Japanese point of view. What Sega does in Joan doesn’t have a large impact outside Japan. 

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I’m speaking from a non Japanese point of view. What Sega does in Joan doesn’t have a large impact outside Japan. 

They're literally the ones who run and manage the entire Sonic brand. Every major decision in the series has to go through them and their word is final.

[Starnik]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

They're literally the ones who run and manage the entire Sonic brand. Every major decision in the series has to go through them and their word is final.

I’m going to drop this conversation. 

[Rabbitearsblog]

I also agree that SEGA could try to compromise in allowing other versions of the franchise into the main game series.  Like as many people pointed out, I liked the way that Reboot Archie incorporated both the game elements and the outside elements into one world.  I especially loved the way that the Freedom Fighters were being incorporated into the game world.  They can easily just do that for the mainstream games.  I think the reason why SEGA don't want to incorporate characters like the Freedom Fighters into the games is because the Freedom Fighters are characters who were not created by SEGA or Sonic Team and therefore, there's that possible fear that they might not be able to write the characters right since they didn't come up with the concept.  It's like if you are a new writer to a book that was previously written by a different writer, and you have a different thought process from the last writer.  You as the new writer might not be able to grasp the same success that the previous writer had in regard to the characters that the previous writer wrote.  Another reason is that SEGA finally established their own lore for the franchise and they want that to be front and center.

I would have been okay with SEGA unifying the brand if they were taking better care of the franchise. The way they are portraying Sonic nowadays is very bland and they don't seem to focus a lot on telling good stories or just making the games good.  If SEGA has been doing a good job with the brand, like just put out good games, then I would be okay with them unifying the brand.  Oh well, we'll see how Sonic Frontiers turns out to see if SEGA is trying to get back on the right track with this franchise.