Knuckles' Chaotix/Sonic Heroes continuity issues.

[sock fox]

Hey, I love Chaotix too. It's a fantastic game. But I can love it separately from the canon just as much as I could if it was part of it. Canon isn't about what games were best, it's just about which ones are part of the overall story. And since Chaotix doesn't really have any kind of story outside of the manual anyway, it doesn't make a great deal of difference.

[Max Gene]

Sonic CD had Sonic Team involvement, though. Being Directed by Ohshima and all.

OK, how about Sonic 2? That was almost entirely done by SEGA Technical Institute, here in the US, with a few key Japanese members. Is part of that game canon, and other parts not? I call shenanigans on the Knuckles Chaotix' canonity issue, if the logic is really what development team did it.

[ChaotixMan]

Charmy is not dumb. It's just part of his young age.

And, it is also because he only knew him by Robotnik.

[Max Gene]

A face like that is gonna look familiar, dude. Distinctive, and encountered before. He's at least going to wonder if he really meant Robotnik.

[Diogenes]

I call shenanigans on the Knuckles Chaotix' canonity issue, if the logic is really what development team did it.

I don't think that's the case. Chaotix isn't noncanon because it wasn't made by the right team, but because the guys who made Heroes decided to write Team Chaotix as new characters. Maybe part of their decision to do that was because they didn't feel the original Espio, Vector, and Charmy were their characters, so they rebuilt them the way they would do it rather than how the other team did, but it's not just "we didn't make it so it doesn't exist".

[sock fox]

OK, how about Sonic 2? That was almost entirely done by SEGA Technical Institute, here in the US, with a few key Japanese members. Is part of that game canon, and other parts not? I call shenanigans on the Knuckles Chaotix' canonity issue, if the logic is really what development team did it.

What are you talking about? Yuji Naka was Chief Programmer! While Ohshima was handling Sonic CD, Naka was working on Sonic 2!

[SuperLink]

CD is definitely canon. Metal Sonic's first appearance anyone? Amy's flashback in Sonic Adventure? It's a silly argument really.

So I don't think it's "noncanon" because it wasn't made by the "right team" at all. Infact, it could still be canon, but they may have changed. That's precisely why they didn't meet Team Sonic in Heroes, because then ST would have had to throw Knuckles Chaotix in the bin completely, or set back to something fans had never heard of!

Edited March 15, 2009 by SuperLink

[Max Gene]

What are you talking about? Yuji Naka was Chief Programmer! While Ohshima was handling Sonic CD, Naka was working on Sonic 2!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hed...ent_and_release

3 people from Sonic Team do not constitute the majority of the dev team. I'm using the same absurd logic they would, except it's much harder to justify in this case, as it should be.

[sock fox]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hed...ent_and_release

3 people from Sonic Team do not constitute the majority of the dev team. I'm using the same absurd logic they would, except it's much harder to justify in this case, as it should be.

...Uhh. Not counting sound design, the development team for Sonic 1 was a grand total of... five people. So yes, three would be the majority.

[lounge]

I'd like Chaotix to be treated like canon, and I think this was a poor choice by Sonic Team.

what's the point when nobody in the world has even heard of Knuckles Chaotix.

[Patticus]

what's the point when nobody in the world has even heard of Knuckles Chaotix.

Judging whether something is canonical or not based upon how obscure or well known it is is just flat out wrong.

Sega made the game, Sega hasn't retconned any of it to my knowledge, thus it is canon.

[sock fox]

Sega made the game, Sega hasn't retconned any of it to my knowledge, thus it is canon.

Sega haven't retconned it, but Sonic Team have. Jeez, am I going to have to quote the interview twice on one page? XD

[lounge]

Sega made the game, Sega hasn't retconned any of it to my knowledge, thus it is canon.

Is it really canon if the characters were redesigned with new personalities like he said in that Iizuka interview? I don't even think if that game is canon or not even matters. There's no links between the games. The only purpose it had on future games was establishing the Chaotix characters. Edited March 15, 2009 by lounge

[Max Gene]

...Uhh. Not counting sound design, the development team for Sonic 1 was a grand total of... five people. So yes, three would be the majority.

Did you forget what game we were talking about, or were you just hoping I wouldn't notice?

[sock fox]

Did you forget what game we were talking about, or were you just hoping I wouldn't notice?

We're talking about Sonic Team. The majority of Sonic Team, as it existed at the time, worked on Sonic 2. So you saying that Sonic 2 wasn't made by Sonic Team is intensely flawed.

[JEV3]

For one thing, I think that the actual canon or continuity of the games has been more or less discarded by Sonic Team. Sometimes we have such "continuity" as the Shadow game (although that may have hurt it more than it helped), or Metal Sonic... but overall, none has really take any definite focus to the timeline. Sonic Unleashed could just as easily have happened before Sonic 3 as afterward, Sonic Adventure 2 could potentially have taken place before the first one.

Therefore, the canon of the Sonic games is really only determined by which spinoff series it is in. Officially, Sonic Team probably regards an event taken place in the Rush saga separately from the (main?) continuity. Besides that, the organization and it all is more or less up to the fans.

In other words, even if Sonic Team doesn't consider Knux Chaotix canon, all they really give you as far as canon goes leaves an awful lot of room for interpretation.

With regards to Charmy not recognizing Robotnik/Eggman, I think its entirely possible that he didn't even know who Eggman was during the events that took place in Knuckles Chaotix. I think, if nothing else, its pretty clear that Knuckles, Espio, and Vector were the brains of the operation... while Mighty and Charmy were just coming along for the ride. Mighty probably would have been observant enough to know what was going on, but Charmy'd be too scatterbrained to pay any attention to something as obscure as the bad guy's name.

Overall though, the fact that this is coming from Charmy makes it a less serious issue than some of the other continuity topics.

[sock fox]

Sonic Adventure 2 could potentially have taken place before the first one.

Except then the reason given for Tails having a Chaos Emerald becomes nonsense. What, does he save Station Square on a regular basis? XD It also wouldn't make much sense for him to have built the Tornado 3 before building the Tornado 2.

Honestly, the only games I can think of which had NO continuity of any kind are Sonic Advance 1 and Sonic Unleashed.

Edited March 15, 2009 by sock fox

[Max Gene]

We're talking about Sonic Team. The majority of Sonic Team, as it existed at the time, worked on Sonic 2. So you saying that Sonic 2 wasn't made by Sonic Team is intensely flawed.

No, I meant 3 people being the majority of the Sonic 2 dev team, not the majority of Sonic Team. The majority of the Sonic 2 team was STI, not Sonic Team.

[-Mark-]

I think the thing is, Chaotix is one of the least-played Sonic games ever. Sure, both the Mega CD and the 32X failed pretty hard, but the 32X failed harder. And the fact that Chaotix is one of the few games that hasn't since been rereleased as part of a compilation means that even less people are likely to have played it. Current-generation fans probably had no idea that Chaotix existed before Heroes.

Also, if you're going into canon issues, how did Charmy un-age ten years between them? He was 16 in Chaotix, yet 6 in Heroes. D=

[Patticus]

Is it really canon if the characters were redesigned with new personalities like he said in that Iizuka interview?

If it hasn't been retconned, yes, although it's not as if any of the characters had discernible personalities in the 2D games anyway. They only tended to wear one expression in the game and there was no text, all you had was the manual, which wasn't a lot to go on.

There's no links between the games. The only purpose it had on future games was establishing the Chaotix characters.

I'm pretty sure it was established that it takes place right after Sonic & Knuckles, too.

[SuperStingray]

Also, if you're going into canon issues, how did Charmy un-age ten years between them? He was 16 in Chaotix, yet 6 in Heroes. D=

Unless... Knuckles Chaotix happened canonically after Heroes? I'm not saying it is, as I don't know much about the game itself, I'm just putting it on the table.

[sock fox]

No, I meant 3 people being the majority of the Sonic 2 dev team, not the majority of Sonic Team. The majority of the Sonic 2 team was STI, not Sonic Team.

...I think you've forgotten what your point was. You're saying that Sonic Team didn't work on Sonic 2. The fact is, the majority of the Sonic Team that existed back then were in charge of Sonic 2's development. They weren't involved with Chaotix at all, though.

[Badnik Zero]

I think it's been suggested by someone here before that Heroes is a little bit of a remake of Chaotix.

Both games introduce the Chaotix and feature a giant freak Metal Sonic as a final boss.

I'd accept that if it means they at least looked to Chaotix for inspiration while making Heroes.

[lounge]

Both games introduce the Chaotix and feature a giant freak Metal Sonic as a final boss.

I'd accept that if it means they at least looked to Chaotix for inspiration while making Heroes.

I'd say the reason Metal Sonic was a boss is because the art director of heroes is also the creator of metal sonic.

[Mega]

Also, if you're going into canon issues, how did Charmy un-age ten years between them? He was 16 in Chaotix, yet 6 in Heroes. D=

Charmy had no official age in the Japanese version.