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Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)


MetalSkulkBane

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5 minutes ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

Knuckles wanting to know about his tribes history kinda doesn't work for me cause it goes against his SA1 ending where its best for him to not learn about it

People are allowed to change their minds. 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

People are allowed to change their minds. 

Sure but the translations (horribly) translates this arc didn't work well for me

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Knuckles should fight a boss who was the first guardian of the master emerald

 

(the first guardian is a homestuck reference)

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4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

People are allowed to change their minds. 

And in his case, he has a had almost 2 decades (in real life time), to think about it. 

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On 12/4/2022 at 12:57 PM, Wraith said:

The game's bodily movements don't even always match the cutscenes in the english version. Sonic and Knuckles constantly make faces at eachother and smirk like there's supposed to be some kind of banter going on when they're having a normal, exposition heavy conversation.

I never found that to be nonsensical, honestly. Instead I read that as Sonic kinda teasing Knuckles for being trapped in a bubble, and from there just kind of going back and forth with the egging each other on. It’s definitely a western-heavy concept that these two have that dynamic going on - something built up over the years in comics and cartoons whereas the games have only suggested it fleetingly - so it makes sense that it’s apparently less pronounced in the version that’s supposed to introduce the less-familiar Japanese audience. 

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41 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

I never found that to be nonsensical, honestly. Instead I read that as Sonic kinda teasing Knuckles for being trapped in a bubble, and from there just kind of going back and forth with the egging each other on. It’s definitely a western-heavy concept that these two have that dynamic going on - something built up over the years in comics and cartoons whereas the games have only suggested it fleetingly - so it makes sense that it’s apparently less pronounced in the version that’s supposed to introduce the less-familiar Japanese audience. 

They don't egg eachother on, though. The body language suggests that they're egging eachother on but what they're actually saying doesn't reflect that.

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8 hours ago, Wraith said:

They don't egg eachother on, though. The body language suggests that they're egging eachother on but what they're actually saying doesn't reflect that.

Honestly, I just got the impression that Sonic and Knuckles were just constantly trying to one-up each either. Everything that either of them said or did was supposed to get a rise. At the end of the scene where Sonic rescues Knuckles, Knuckles leans in for a smug pose when he says "sounds like a plan". It was goofy and cute, especially when Sonic mimicked him whilst looking totally confused, but I don't quite get why he did that in the first place. Although given how visibly confused Sonic looked, maybe that was the intention. The story boarders purposeful had Knuckles pull a strange pose. Its not clear though. If that was their intention, they kind of failed. And if it wasn't their intention, then they double failed.

Even though there's a definitely an occasional bit of dissonance between dialogue and animations, I at least bought the friendly rivalry banter that was going on. The tone of the dialogue in the scene fit the animations, but the individual lines did not necessarily match up with what was being said. 

In the Japanese dub however... Yeah it just didn't fit at all. Sonic and Knuckles have a very different dynamic there. I'm very partial to how the two of them clearly have back-and-forth in he English version, but the Japanese version is fine too. It really doesn't mesh with the animation at all though. That's a bit of a failing on the part of the Japanese localisation.

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I have only experienced the JP script so far, but while some expressions did seem a little odd, it didn't feel too off. Though, definitely seemed like something was missing with Knuckles.

That said, the lines were still handled well within expectations based on their relationship.

I think it's an issue with the EN script too, but I'll have to say that there were a little too many past references that did not contribute to the situation at hand. I did notice that in the comics, so I'm assuming it's influenced by Flynn.

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wouldn't that be more of a de-evolution than an evolution?

 

also, it would mean Chaos would be less of a mutated Chao, and instead a restoration of a pure bloodline? (which is an acceptable amendment to the lore I guess)

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I guess that's why a mutated chao looks an ancient then.

Maybe this is a crackpot theory but it came to my mind immediately, but if having the emeralds power can revert something to previous line in it's evolution(or even just in terms of design) (Chaos to Ancients), then what does that make super forms? Did super hedgehogs used to be a common thing roaming the world, and over time mellowed out into the much more mild hedgehogs we see through the likes of Sonic?

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Something I just considered regarding certain story points:

Given the IDW comics exist in canon (apparently), isn't it just as likely that they'd dump all of Amy, Knuckles, and Tails' character journeys that they're supposedly going on from the end of Frontiers into the comics and basically skip it completely for the next Sonic game?

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4 hours ago, The Deleter said:

We've got confirmation that the Chao did indeed evolve from the Ancients over time:

Ugh, I still hate this. They have nothing in common, it's such a forced, meaningless addition.

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

wouldn't that be more of a de-evolution than an evolution?

also, it would mean Chaos would be less of a mutated Chao, and instead a restoration of a pure bloodline? (which is an acceptable amendment to the lore I guess)

There's no such thing as devolution in biology. The Ancients didn't devolve. They evolved and mutated into a different species, that eventually ended up as the present day Chao. I think the implication is that radiation from the Master Emerald was responsible for those mutations, and also somehow responsible for having an opposite effect on one specific Chao resulting in Chaos. 

26 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Ugh, I still hate this. They have nothing in common, it's such a forced, meaningless addition.

In a game where the Chao don't even get so much as mention yet alone an appearance, they've changed from mystical fairy-like beings to radiation-induced evolution of aliens. And the Emeralds are alien in origin too.

I don't actually dislike the notion that a race of ancient beings resembling Chaos used to exist. That said race eventually became the Chao doesn't bother me either. That's all kind of interesting. Chaos and the Chao have been linked to the Emeralds since their inception. But the suggestion was that the origins and history of both of these things were mystical. They didn't need further explanation. Turning them all into a race of high tech aliens that ended up on Earth not only robs them of their intrigue, it also brings technology into the question when it was previously just about unexplained powers. It's really unnecessary. And fuck, it's not even original. This is the third time that the series has established a bit of lore only to later retcon it with aliens.

The Chao should have just been left as magical spirits. If they had to introduce the race of Chaos people, they should have just been done sorry of manifestation of Chaos energy or otherwise linked to the Emeralds. Aliens was the wrong way to go. I'm disappointed to know that Chai are now, technically, aliens instead of sprites/fairies. And the Chaos Emeralds coming from space too... No thanks. I thought that they were intrinsically linked to the planet itself anyway. Gaia Temples have a messy plot hole now. And Solaris. And what if the Sol Emeralds? Urgh.

I feel like in writing Frontiers scenario, the writers were too focused on making something with dramatic lore implications that they lost sight of respecting the original story elements a bit. The lore established in Frontiers changes a lot of things for no reason, but also goes absolutely nowhere. 

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12 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

And Solaris

The chaos emeralds in regards to this had a plot hole baked into the story already, just due to time travel...

The Gaia temples however just need confirmation that the Emeralds didn't actually come "from" space and just got sent off planet at some point.

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I always assumed the Gaia Temples had just always existed since the beginning of the planet's history to help rebuild it with the Chaos Emeralds' powers. It was never directly said that that was the method Chip always used to rebuild the planet. In hindsight, who would've built the temples before there were people? Maybe the Ancients built them during the most recent Time of Awakening, tens of thousands of years ago. But now, how did he do it before?

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The Gaia temples however just need confirmation that the Emeralds didn't actually come "from" space and just got sent off planet at some point.

Shouldn't be necessary in the game that was supposed to explain their origins. 

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2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Frontiers doesn't explain their origin.

No, but it does say they came from space, and there's previous games that contradict them being from space. Now we need another game to say they actually came from Earth, went to space, and then came back.

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

No, but it does say they came from space, and there's previous games that contradict them being from space. Now we need another game to say they actually came from Earth, went to space, and then came back.

Ian does mention how little "they came from space" actually pins them down in where they've actually been in their totality in an earlier question. He also mentions that the Temples likely were built after the ancients arrived as well, which feeds into the mythos of Sonic's worldbuilding mostly borrowing the Emeralds for power rather than built into them inherently.

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On 12/7/2022 at 11:34 AM, The Deleter said:

We've got confirmation that the Chao did indeed evolve from the Ancients over time:

They knew exactly what they were doing with that title and thumbnail.

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On 12/7/2022 at 2:54 PM, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Something I just considered regarding certain story points:

Given the IDW comics exist in canon (apparently), isn't it just as likely that they'd dump all of Amy, Knuckles, and Tails' character journeys that they're supposedly going on from the end of Frontiers into the comics and basically skip it completely for the next Sonic game?

I mean, possible, but we won't know till we get to that point. 

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On 12/8/2022 at 8:11 AM, Diogenes said:

Ugh, I still hate this. They have nothing in common, it's such a forced, meaningless addition.

But don't they have everything in common? The Chao were designed to be the same watery race as Chaos, and the Ancients were... also designed to be the same watery race as Chaos. All the main points of commonality are there. Wouldn't it just be a glaring plot hole to not have them connected at all?

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My point is that I can only believe the design similarites were forced in later, after they decided to connect two unrelated ideas. Sonic Team wanted to do this chaos emerald "origin" story and have them come from some hyperadvanced aliens, but instead of designing a new alien race someone tried to be clever and connect up some lore and said they should be Chaoses. But there's no mechanical or thematic connection between them to make it work, it starts and ends at "here's two ancient species who had some contact with the emeralds; surprise they're the same actually!". We don't see chao building giant mecha or the Ancients absorbing animal traits or eating emeralds to turn into kaiju; they can say all they want that one evolved/degenerated from the other, but they don't sell the idea, they're just too different in function. And instead of elevating SA's story, the new information giving us a richer understanding and appreciation of it, it just demystifies it. The chao are no longer some mystical fairy creatures protected by a force of nature, they're the idiot descendants of some space nerds. They midichlorianed my boy and I don't like it.

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