Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Wait I thought that's what you preferred lmao

I think he's criticizing that the games makes a connection that it never elaborates on; The Chaos Emeralds are connected to the Ancients, but nothing more. We don't know if they created them, what their intended purpose was, or why exactly can the likes of Sonic & Shadow utilize them to such a degree despite having no apparent connection to the Ancients.

Did Gerald know about them? Its adds a lot of unnecessary complications

I'm going through the story myself right now and it's honestly weird how despite this game being so reference heavy, nobody besides Eggman makes the connection, and Eggman only does it in a memo. Sonic directly references Adventure when he Tails needs a sadboi scene, but not when it pertains to literally the main mystery of the game? What the fuck?

[Diogenes]

22 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Wait I thought that's what you preferred lmao

As far as affecting things? I'm skeptical about them touching on old lore and I'd generally rather see them focus on new ideas, but if they're going to build on old lore, I expect them to do something meaningful with it. If you can't do it right, don't fuck with it.

[Nuggets]

long-ass reflection under the spoiler

Spoiler

in so many ways, the writing here is everything I’ve wanted from the series for 14 years, give or take: Characters actually interacting with each other, the revival of dynamics I thought were long dead, references to a multitude of things that I thought we would never see again (lowkey maybe too many) … As someone who’s loved these characters since I was a kid, I just had the dumbest smile on my face watching some of these cutscenes. The ones with Sonic and Knuckles resonated with me especially - their rivalry taps into such a fun energy that we haven’t really gotten to see all that much on screen, and seeing them do shit like make stupid faces at each other, and then in another scene, talk about Knuckles being the last echidna, makes these characters and their histories feel real and lived in in a way that they haven’t in years. 

I won’t bemoan the past 10 years like they’ve been total dogshit - outside of Forces, I don’t actually don’t dislike Pontac/Graff that much (Colors is a genuinely fun breather, and parts of Lost World work really well), but Ian is in another league - even when he’s hitting the same beats as Pontaff, there’s something else to make you smile, a reference or a character moment that makes a joke hit that much harder. The bit where Sage asks, “What is your end goal?” and Sonic says “ It depends. Sometimes it’s a spinning sign. Other times, a big ol’ ring,” or the bit when Tails and Amy give impassioned speeches about saving Sonic and why they need him back in the world, and then Knuckles just says “after this, we’re even. “ - had me laughing out loud. Flynn is in fixer mode here, doing what he does best, things like making a play at fixing Tails by basically doing his SA1 arc over again. but this time it comes with the interesting twist of having that arc happen as a result of Tails reflecting over what some would say was the reversal of that development in games from Unleashed forward. Flynn has always had respect for the world he’s inherited, always trying to make something logically fit, instead of retconning to get plots and characters to go where they need to - his ability to turn what many might look at as bad writing from Pontaff into genuine development is commendable, a skill he’s definitely developed over time lol. He knows what he’s doing, and he’s good at it. 

Not to say it’s perfect, because it’s not at all - I am still very murky on the exact backstory of the ancients, and how exactly they tie into SA1 Chaos and the echidnas, and the game’s endgame highlights a couple issues that seem tied to not only the game’s rushed development towards the end, but to the narrative as a whole. I think the mystery angle lasts a little too long, and while “Ghost Girl” being the true villain isn’t a bad or super predictable twist, it does leave the game without a true villain for more than 80% of it, so by Chaos Island, Sage and the whole “ooo I’m mysterious n cryptic and you don’t know what’s going on and you’re gonna die” shtick is starting to run thin - like, we get it. Then the endgame kicks in, and it gets choppy. The final boss features Sonic talking to the titans saying that the End took their home, but … Who tf is he talking to? The other Titans aren’t there, and Sage is controlling Supreme. Feels like something got lost in translation or messily cut there, and making the End’s true form a, uh *checks notes* random purple moon after you’ve fought four of the wildest bosses we’ve ever seen in the series is … A choice for sure. Sonic fighting an embodiment of pure evil that indirectly led to the end of the echidnas and has so many ties to his history is crazy … But it’s just the limpest most underdeveloped thing in execution. The whole endgame gets to be like that, honestly. Also Sage kinda just basically… dies and sacrifices herself and Sonic lands and acts like nothing even happened. idk. weird. so it doesn’t quite stick the landing, and that coupled with the game’s issues towards the end (heh) make the whole thing have a slightly sour aftertaste but the big repairs and the little moments make it an overall success for me. 

As a final note, it’ll be interesting to see what happens if Flynn writes the next game. I’ve sung the fuck out of his praises this entire post, but I think the true test will be something original. For me, at least, Ian’s love for lore and references in this landed really hard because this is a series that has felt like isolated adventures for about 10 years that only casually and shallowly reference each other. Now that it feels like a world again, I don’t know if the high from hearing something like “This reminds me of the Mystic Ruins” or a plot referencing Adventure is going to hit the same next time - there’s a certain serotonin   boost that comes from hearing those after not hearing them for so long, but next time, I don’t think it’ll be enough to cover if the story’s not up to par - and if I think about it too hard, it’s barely enough here. but for the time being, i’m content with what we got. 

tl;dr it ain’t perfect and we’ll see what happens next time when mr. flynn doesn’t have references and lore as a crutch but the ambition on display here easily makes this story the best we’ve gotten since 2009

i’m happy 

[KHCast]

Does anyone know if the game references 06, at any point, as in the locales (since the events didn’t happen)? Curious if they literally reference EVERYTHING from the series lol

 

also

Spoiler

It’s funny to think of the potential implications from Sticks being canon, cause wouldn’t that mean London and other real world locations exists in Sonic’s world (despite unleashed locales being meant to be the sonic version of real world areas)

 

[Darkvizardberrytan]

We have to wait around new years before asking questions on the story

 

[Dr. Mechano]

8 minutes ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

We have to wait around new years before asking questions on the story

Oh hey, it's me!

And yeah, that seems fair. Let the holiday rush end and then start asking him for more details.

[The Deleter]

59 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

As far as affecting things? I'm skeptical about them touching on old lore and I'd generally rather see them focus on new ideas, but if they're going to build on old lore, I expect them to do something meaningful with it. If you can't do it right, don't fuck with it.

The koco and ancients were "new ideas", albeit using the exact same mechanics as what came before. Whether they did those right or not, largely has nothing to do with this:

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

... You might call that fertile grounds for speculation and theorycrafting, but that stuff should come in at the edges, after you've told a good, complete story, and that's absolutely not what we got.

Y'know what might've been cool? You go to the trouble to set up some kind of connection between the echidnas and the ancients, have Knuckles point out their similar circumstances regarding being wiped out, the prologue seems to imply Chaos is still hanging around...maybe actually do something with that? Have Chaos actually be involved with the story of his people? Go into some detail about how the destruction of the ancients on Earth led to Chaos living at the emerald shrine by the time the echidnas rolled up? Have him confront that in his (in fairness, understandable) anger he became a destructive force not unlike The End and perpetuated suffering and death even on those who didn't deserve it? Have Knuckles forgive him and they could bond over being the last of their respective kinds? Properly redeem Chaos by having him help stop The End and prevent another tragedy of that magnitude? Instead of just leaving it at "Chaos is an alien I guess. Maybe."

I'd still think making Chaos an alien was dumb as shit but at least something about it would matter.

If you take the Koco and ancients for the story they were trying to tell, rather than this much broader idea of what storytelling "should" be, they served as a catalyst for the main characters to reach moments of introspection, the thematic core of the game's world, and the driving force of the endgame conflict.

The latter is obviously flawed, considering how underwhelming the ending was, but the former was the "complete" story that the game was looking to tell.

The lore of the ancients isn't what drives the characters, but their individual circumstances they get a look at. Where that trips up is that, while telling those circumstances, the lore becomes the sole focal point for fans almost immediately as soon as the recognize what the form looks like, when it should have served as side intruige only, as the game is hoping to deliver through context answers or otherwise retaining some form of mystery.

Whether you like it or not, the story did use them carefully to tell individual and complete themes that reflected where the writer intended to take the main characters. That's a complete story; their role as a narrative device served its designed purpose.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I think he's criticizing that the games makes a connection that it never elaborates on; The Chaos Emeralds are connected to the Ancients, but nothing more. We don't know if they created them, what their intended purpose was, or why exactly can the likes of Sonic & Shadow utilize them to such a degree despite having no apparent connection to the Ancients.

Did Gerald know about them? Its adds a lot of unnecessary complications

I'm going through the story myself right now and it's honestly weird how despite this game being so reference heavy, nobody besides Eggman makes the connection, and Eggman only does it in a memo. Sonic directly references Adventure when he Tails needs a sadboi scene, but not when it pertains to literally the main mystery of the game? What the fuck?

A lot of those were already answered by seeking out SAGE and the Egg memos (they evolved from radiation, so through extrapolation they couldn't have created them) but like I said above, that's largely a fault of the story not treading the line of maintaining a background intrigue behind the mysteries it wants to answer/does not want to answer, and the story it was telling in service of the main characters and theme of the game. There's nothing wrong with leaving lore questions up in the air for intrigue - it's just when you make your character designs so explicitly "IS THAT CHAOS?!?", people are obviously going to be upset that that answer is not featured or discussed in the main contents they were introduced in. In a similar but more immediately relevant way to everyone involved, hyping up The End as one of the greatest threats in the game and series itself obviously failed itself when players either played on easy and lost a satisfying answer to that thread completely, or to the players who did end up playing hard and still found what was offered to be underwhelming.

Personally speaking, I always thought their designs were fairly different from Chaos. But this is the fanbase who thinks red squares = infinite, so

[Danj86]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I think he's criticizing that the games makes a connection that it never elaborates on; The Chaos Emeralds are connected to the Ancients, but nothing more. We don't know if they created them, what their intended purpose was, or why exactly can the likes of Sonic & Shadow utilize them to such a degree despite having no apparent connection to the Ancients.

I've been playing through the final boss with only voice volume so I can hear what "The End" is saying. It's last line seems to imply what the source of the Chaos Emeralds power might be.

Quote

"My captors bent time and space. My captors built a whole reality to contain me. My captors burn their souls away to fuel their engines...and you."

I'm still checking if it says anything else that might shed some more light on stuff.

[Kuzu]

This story sure is backloaded isn't it....

[Darkvizardberrytan]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Oh hey, it's me!

And yeah, that seems fair. Let the holiday rush end and then start asking him for more details.

rofl i did not realize it was you XD

[SticksSuperFan14]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, MGA_Gamer said:

Honestly, my biggest problem with Tails, Knuckles and Amy going their separate ways from Sonic, even if it is just temporary, is that it wouldn't matter so much if the development times between games these days wasn't so damn long!

Like, 5 Years between new Sonic games seems to be the new normal, and if the next game does indeed replace the established cast with an entirely new one, then that means we could be waiting years, perhaps decades before we get to see our old favourites again!

Then if the new cast turns out to be more popular than the old guard, then... This is it. This is the end of the story for Tails, Knuckles and Amy (At least as far as the games are concerned).

And that's why i'm so sad. Not the fact that this is happening at all, but the fact that a lot of established, fan-favourite characters are potentially going to be absent for a very long time, possibly forever! 

I feel like people either aren't aware or forgot about the recent article where Izuka says he's wanting to get 3rd parties to make more spinoffs to fill in the gap between the 5 year period for new mainline stuff (hell I didn't even find a thread about it here), so I feel like some of this might get touched upon depending on what some of these spinoffs end up being.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

22 minutes ago, SticksSuperFan14 said:

I feel like people either aren't aware or forgot about the recent article where Izuka says he's wanting to get 3rd parties to make more spinoffs to fill in the gap between the 5 year period for new mainline stuff (hell I didn't even find a thread about it here), so I feel like some of this might get touched upon depending on what some of these spinoffs end up being.

With that in mind, I do wonder if this gameplay style had other playable characters in mind for the future.

Normally, this would be lip service at best, but Frontiers has clearly been the game where they put their money where their mouth is. And given how flexible the control scheme and open zone style allows for different styles of play, I could see this opening up avenues.

Heck, maybe even they'll develop something unique for the likes of Tangle, Whisper or Sticks at some point.

[Danj86]

I finished transcribing The Ends dialogue as best as I could. I didn't notice anything else that was interesting. Just the usual villain schpeel. Figured I'd share what I could make out anyway.

Quote

"Mortal, you have served your purpose. Now face your end."
"I am the all consuming void. What can one mortal in golden light illuminate within the abyss?"
"Countless stars, countless worlds, countless lives, all fell to me, all brought to nothing."
"All the teeming chaos and creation, brought to order, to neutrality, to nothing."
"I saw your mind as you ran through my prison. You have fought machines and gods, they were mighty, they were finite. I am infinite, I am nothing."
"You struggle as so many have done before, you will be consumed like all those before you."
"I saw your mind, your courage never wavered. Why? Arrogance? Ignorance? Stupidity? I was contained once. Once. Is that why?"
"My captors bent time and space, my captors built a whole reality to contain me. My captors burn their souls away to fuel their engines...and you."
"You flitter, you fly around like an gnat. I am inevitable, I cannot be denied."
"You strike this incarnation with all your might, it changes nothing."
"You are not brave, you are not victorious. No matter what form I take, the end comes for you all."

 

[juiceDpunk983]

I like how Knuckles referenced his Super form. Haven't seen him Super since Heroes. God I love this game, it's like if Sonic Chronicles was 3D. I get the feeling the crew doing their own thing is setting up some sort of adventure game where you play as them. I hope we get more lore stuff in future games, love this stuff.

Oh yeah and Neo metal getting referenced was great too, Neo form needs to return.

[ZinogreVolt]

45 minutes ago, DanJ86 said:

I finished transcribing The Ends dialogue as best as I could. I didn't notice anything else that was interesting. Just the usual villain schpeel. Figured I'd share what I could make out anyway.

I love how this thing is Planade-G from Blaster Master, but if it for some reason had physical thought.

[Zoomzeta]

51 minutes ago, DanJ86 said:

I finished transcribing The Ends dialogue as best as I could. I didn't notice anything else that was interesting. Just the usual villain schpeel. Figured I'd share what I could make out anyway.

...What kind of Eldrich monstrosity where those Ancients against that the emeralds couldn't destroy it? 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

20 minutes ago, Zoomzeta said:

...What kind of Eldrich monstrosity where those Ancients against that the emeralds couldn't destroy it? 

Hmm. Could this perhaps be food for thought in a potential sequel?

[The Tenth Doctor]

Curious, it says it is above other Gods Sonic has faced. Its obviously stronger than Chaos and probably Dark Gaia, but what about Solaris? I know those memories won't be in Sonic's head as it was time wiped but Solaris wasn't finite. It was Omni-Prescent, existing in every time line all at once. It destroyed dimensions and time, much as The End threatens it can do. Just curious how it stacks up.

[Dr. Detective]

So I beat the game. It took me quite a while and it feels nice to say that for a Sonic game, considering how it feels thing usually go. It is telling that despite being the longest game in the series, the story still leaves a lot on the table and the presentation of it's tale conks out a bit towards the end.

That said, I do want to lead with the fact that this was the most engaged I've been with a Sonic narrative within the games in well over a decade or so. The dialogue and characterization were all great and having the characters feel like themselves again went a long way. Even better was getting hints towards possible new developments for them in the future if we can trust that they'll stick with it. Also helping was how there were a lot of instances where the presentation of the boss encounters just popped off. 

I felt trepidations manifest a bit towards the start due to the formula concerning hunting down each character not being all that interesting in the beginning. It was written and acted really well but running around the map only to get a bit of a few lines of dialogue each time for the Side Story stuff felt like a bit of a missed opportunity for something grander. The main story stuff was where things got way more interesting. Seeing those reunited lovers just die in front of them like that shot my investment up quite a lot.

When I got the hang of the formula, I was okay with it and ended up really taking to the journey Knuckles and his Koco had too. I even joined in on the final salute they all gave. While Amy's decision felt a little lacking in the build up department, what happened with Knuckles just felt really appropriate and it addressed something Ian himself has wanted for Knuckles for quite a long time too. I'm sure seeing battle hardened Koco just dying in a row might have gotten him thinking about how he wants to spend the rest of his life before he too gives a final salute and shuffles off into the huge symbol in the sky.

Tails was, by far, the best one though so I'm glad they all got better as they went along. I may be bias since Tails is my favorite of this core group but every scene of him and Sonic interesting just got me in all the right ways. From jump, I recall hearing Sonic call him his little bro and immediately I wished to hear it again. Their interactions are sweet and I absolutely love the way Tails shuffles through his thoughts regarding his self-worth and how almost ashamed of himself for being naturally inclined to screw up he is, despite always bouncing back. The story of the cute little ace pilot's apprentice who's hero never returned got me the most. The whole time I was dreading the part where it was it's turn to die and then it happened. Then Tails' moment of having reflected on where he wants to take himself going forward was the kicker for me there. It's naturally the most effective one because of the whole "child leaving the nest" feel it exudes. It's something that's been talked about and played with a bit in some fan ideas and what not so seeing it actually talked about and allegedly happening is kind of wild. 

Granted, it's all good but not perfect. Because of the nature of the game and the way it handles it's cutscenes (again, despite its length) very little time is spent on them on their own. I was surprised when Tails actually got a solo scene with Sage to talk about stuff. However, I couldn't help but think it would have been more effective to actually see them wrestle with these thoughts as they happened. Tails mentioned seeing another version of himself, calling him out for being just a follower and other such things. I understand that I don't necessarily need to literally see it for them to get the point across but witnessing it would have helped quite a bit as far as the emotional intake.

It's an even bigger problem when it comes to Eggman and Sage's relationship. The idea behind it is perfectly fine. The scenes they do have and the way they interact is cute, sometimes adorable even. I love the scene where Eggman gives in to what Sage wants but still can't completely let his ego drop so he inducts Sonic into the Eggman Empire and commands him to save them all. Genuinely, fucking excellent stuff.

Unfortunately, because there's so little of Eggman in the game but so much more Sage, the relationship feels unbalanced. I totally buy the affection Sage has for Eggman and I can even buy that Eggman feels a similar way but the build up on Eggman's side just isn't there. The biggest example of it exist within the Egg Memos which have to be granted to you through Big's Fishing game. If I hadn't decided to listen to them all right before I went to fight Supreme I would have been almost blindsided by how affectionate Eggman was by the climax. If they weren't going to grant them that much time together, they needed to not lay it on as thick. They didn't have enough scenes of them together when Sage was thinking back to her time with Eggman. It was more humorous than anything because it was them in the same background. I think the final cutscene after the credits is perfect. It gets the point across fine. You don't need much more than that. Definitely could have done without Sage's ballad to her daddy at the end. If you want that, you really need to give it more focus.

As for the big lore bits, of course I ate all that shit up. My head was careening towards the screen every time a new bit of info cropped up or somebody simply name dropped a thing from a past game. I absolutely reveled in it and I'd push for even more if I could see them getting away with it. After so goddamn long of it just not mattering, it really feels great getting a game where it does.

The Egg Memos were all great. All of them. The best one was, however, the one where he reflects on Maria. The idea that he has resentment towards her because she died and was considered beloved while he was off to the side and seemingly ignored is an incredibly interesting angle to approach Eggman from. I wish we had gotten more of that.

I was a tad conflicted on the idea that the Chaos Emeralds were from space until I realized that it didn't really matter. What DID shock me and what I find way more interesting is the fact that the Master Emerald was on Earth. That's genuinely fascinating to me and while I don't think a full explanation is in order (nor is it something I want) a bigger acknowledgement of the mystery or differences between the two to really push the revelation across the finish would be great.

Chaos being descended from aliens doesn't bother me that much. Just like Jet being descended from aliens doesn't. Again, my issue is more the missed opportunity of what was left out concerning the obvious pieces to connect here. Chaos being from a race of people that had their planet decimated and then their entire race destroyed until it was just him left is an obvious parallel to Knuckles' situation. A situation Knuckles is only in because Chaos did the same thing to the echidnas when they rolled up on his doorstep and told Chaos "Hey, how about MORE WAR? We're gonna steal your shit that the Ancients left behind and just use it to do MORE of that war your people hate. Kay thanks."

Like yeah. Of course that would have pissed him off and gotten them all killed. But the connection being obvious kind of hurts because it's not directly touched on in game. Chaos is only mentioned in the Egg Memo and nowhere else. It's really jarring considering the Ancients are the focus of the main plot and it's clear they share a connection because they look just like him. It's almost exact.

As for The End. I have to say this because it's true; after beating the final boss I kind of sat awake in bed just thinking about that entity for about an hour. That's not really something that's ever happened before with a Sonic anything since maybe Adventure 2? Maybe Black Knight? It's really because of the concept behind it. 

The idea that floating in space was just this faceless being that's stronger than the regular combined might of the Chaos Emeralds going around killing everything and destroying planets just because it wants to and considers that the point of its existence was legitimately chilling to me. The build up was great. It still kind of freaks me out, thinking about it now. Regular alien invasions with societal, militaristic mindsets like the Black Arms or just the regular monsters that they employ is one thing. But the idea that The End just does this, is cognisant of it, has no end goal, has no need for friends or connections, and can not be reasoned with feels particularly nightmarish to me as an idea. I didn't even mind that it was just the moon's evil twin brother. Giving it any kind of face or shape in the form of an animal or humanoid is also a choice that holds some merit for me. I won't argue that it maybe could have used a little something else design wise but I'm not sure what.

All that makes it all the more of a shame that the finale just feels so fast and loose. I played the game on normal so when it was beaten in three QTEs I was shocked. I was wondering if the game was going to give me any context for what exactly The End was aside from a thing that was planning on killing everyone and I never got it. I didn't need much. I just wanted a monologue where it explains what it's deal was and I thought that it wasn't there. I didn't need to see where it came from or anything like that. Just enough to understand it's motivation, what it's doing, and has done to keep it's presence relatively mysterious as an entity for the sake of keeping me feeling freaked out by it. 

... Turns out it IS there but in hard mode, which is astonishingly weird to me. I attempted to play it again and it's not only extremely hard but also the least inspired boss fight in the game despite being the finale. The best I can give it is that it's not a repeat of the Sonic Colors final boss.

It's so strange. Because I love that tyraid it goes on and the shifting voice. Hell, when the reveal happens that the great evil is the same voice that told Sonic to start doing stuff across the island, my jaw DID actually drop. I was okay with its presence remaining mostly subtle and mysterious because that's far scarier to me yet the final boss itself is such a huge drop off in quality and presentation from the rest. It's so sad. It's almost like they ran out of time or something which... might have even been the case, honestly.

There's a lot here that I liked and even loved to a certain extent. I find myself looking forward to the future and hoping there's a step taken towards actually following up on a lot of what's been talked about and introduced here. I do believe that the current direction is to consolidate and focus on the lore but that doesn't mean that the "current direction" can't change. We're all aware of how wishy washy they are and how good they are at keeping promises.

There is an inherent risk to going back to old bits of lore and expanding on it. It was done to not that great effect in Shadow the Hedgehog and here, while I don't think it outright ruins anything, it feels like it needed more time in the oven. Because there actually is potential for this to mean something pretty cool as far as the characters and the connections they have or had. 

As such, despite overall enjoying the story, there are parts where I feel conflicted. Mostly for what they will or won't do in the future rather than anything this game does. 

So yeah, like with most things with Sonic, the issues for me come down to there just not being enough of it.

Still. Somehow. In the longest game in the series. Oh well.

Honestly, it just feels nice to have shit to care about again. I'll criticize what's there if I must but I do still find myself wanting to encourage doing more stuff like this. Next time, let's try and be a little bit more creative than "aliens did it" though. 

[Zoomzeta]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

So I beat the game. It took me quite a while and it feels nice to say that for a Sonic game, considering how it feels thing usually go. It is telling that despite being the longest game in the series, the story still leaves a lot on the table and the presentation of it's tale conks out a bit towards the end.

That said, I do want to lead with the fact that this was the most engaged I've been with a Sonic narrative within the games in well over a decade or so. The dialogue and characterization were all great and having the characters feel like themselves again went a long way. Even better was getting hints towards possible new developments for them in the future if we can trust that they'll stick with it. Also helping was how there were a lot of instances where the presentation of the boss encounters just popped off. 

I felt trepidations manifest a bit towards the start due to the formula concerning hunting down each character not being all that interesting in the beginning. It was written and acted really well but running around the map only to get a bit of a few lines of dialogue each time for the Side Story stuff felt like a bit of a missed opportunity for something grander. The main story stuff was where things got way more interesting. Seeing those reunited lovers just die in front of them like that shot my investment up quite a lot.

When I got the hang of the formula, I was okay with it and ended up really taking to the journey Knuckles and his Koco had too. I even joined in on the final salute they all gave. While Amy's decision felt a little lacking in the build up department, what happened with Knuckles just felt really appropriate and it addressed something Ian himself has wanted for Knuckles for quite a long time too. I'm sure seeing battle hardened Koco just dying in a row might have gotten him thinking about how he wants to spend the rest of his life before he too gives a final salute and shuffles off into the huge symbol in the sky.

Tails was, by far, the best one though so I'm glad they all got better as they went along. I may be bias since Tails is my favorite of this core group but every scene of him and Sonic interesting just got me in all the right ways. From jump, I recall hearing Sonic call him his little bro and immediately I wished to hear it again. Their interactions are sweet and I absolutely love the way Tails shuffles through his thoughts regarding his self-worth and how almost ashamed of himself for being naturally inclined to screw up he is, despite always bouncing back. The story of the cute little ace pilot's apprentice who's hero never returned got me the most. The whole time I was dreading the part where it was it's turn to die and then it happened. Then Tails' moment of having reflected on where he wants to take himself going forward was the kicker for me there. It's naturally the most effective one because of the whole "child leaving the nest" feel it exudes. It's something that's been talked about and played with a bit in some fan ideas and what not so seeing it actually talked about and allegedly happening is kind of wild. 

Granted, it's all good but not perfect. Because of the nature of the game and the way it handles it's cutscenes (again, despite its length) very little time is spent on them on their own. I was surprised when Tails actually got a solo scene with Sage to talk about stuff. However, I couldn't help but think it would have been more effective to actually see them wrestle with these thoughts as they happened. Tails mentioned seeing another version of himself, calling him out for being just a follower and other such things. I understand that I don't necessarily need to literally see it for them to get the point across but witnessing it would have helped quite a bit as far as the emotional intake.

It's an even bigger problem when it comes to Eggman and Sage's relationship. The idea behind it is perfectly fine. The scenes they do have and the way they interact is cute, sometimes adorable even. I love the scene where Eggman gives in to what Sage wants but still can't completely let his ego drop so he inducts Sonic into the Eggman Empire and commands him to save them all. Genuinely, fucking excellent stuff.

Unfortunately, because there's so little of Eggman in the game but so much more Sage, the relationship feels unbalanced. I totally buy the affection Sage has for Eggman and I can even buy that Eggman feels a similar way but the build up on Eggman's side just isn't there. The biggest example of it exist within the Egg Memos which have to be granted to you through Big's Fishing game. If I hadn't decided to listen to them all right before I went to fight Supreme I would have been almost blindsided by how affectionate Eggman was by the climax. If they weren't going to grant them that much time together, they needed to not lay it on as thick. They didn't have enough scenes of them together when Sage was thinking back to her time with Eggman. It was more humorous than anything because it was them in the same background. I think the final cutscene after the credits is perfect. It gets the point across fine. You don't need much more than that. Definitely could have done without Sage's ballad to her daddy at the end. If you want that, you really need to give it more focus.

As for the big lore bits, of course I ate all that shit up. My head was careening towards the screen every time a new bit of info cropped up or somebody simply name dropped a thing from a past game. I absolutely reveled in it and I'd push for even more if I could see them getting away with it. After so goddamn long of it just not mattering, it really feels great getting a game where it does.

The Egg Memos were all great. All of them. The best one was, however, the one where he reflects on Maria. The idea that he has resentment towards her because she died and was considered beloved while he was off to the side and seemingly ignored is an incredibly interesting angle to approach Eggman from. I wish we had gotten more of that.

I was a tad conflicted on the idea that the Chaos Emeralds were from space until I realized that it didn't really matter. What DID shock me and what I find way more interesting is the fact that the Master Emerald was on Earth. That's genuinely fascinating to me and while I don't think a full explanation is in order (nor is it something I want) a bigger acknowledgement of the mystery or differences between the two to really push the revelation across the finish would be great.

Chaos being descended from aliens doesn't bother me that much. Just like Jet being descended from aliens doesn't. Again, my issue is more the missed opportunity of what was left out concerning the obvious pieces to connect here. Chaos being from a race of people that had their planet decimated and then their entire race destroyed until it was just him left is an obvious parallel to Knuckles' situation. A situation Knuckles is only in because Chaos did the same thing to the echidnas when they rolled up on his doorstep and told Chaos "Hey, how about MORE WAR? We're gonna steal your shit that the Ancients left behind and just use it to do MORE of that war your people hate. Kay thanks."

Like yeah. Of course that would have pissed him off and gotten them all killed. But the connection being obvious kind of hurts because it's not directly touched on in game. Chaos is only mentioned in the Egg Memo and nowhere else. It's really jarring considering the Ancients are the focus of the main plot and it's clear they share a connection because they look just like him. It's almost exact.

As for The End. I have to say this because it's true; after beating the final boss I kind of sat awake in bed just thinking about that entity for about an hour. That's not really something that's ever happened before with a Sonic anything since maybe Adventure 2? Maybe Black Knight? It's really because of the concept behind it. 

The idea that floating in space was just this faceless being that's stronger than the regular combined might of the Chaos Emeralds going around killing everything and destroying planets just because it wants to and considers that the point of its existence was legitimately chilling to me. The build up was great. It still kind of freaks me out, thinking about it now. Regular alien invasions with societal, militaristic mindsets like the Black Arms or just the regular monsters that they employ is one thing. But the idea that The End just does this, is cognisant of it, has no end goal, has no need for friends or connections, and can not be reasoned with feels particularly nightmarish to me as an idea. I didn't even mind that it was just the moon's evil twin brother. Giving it any kind of face or shape in the form of an animal or humanoid is also a choice that holds some merit for me. I won't argue that it maybe could have used a little something else design wise but I'm not sure what.

All that makes it all the more of a shame that the finale just feels so fast and loose. I played the game on normal so when it was beaten in three QTEs I was shocked. I was wondering if the game was going to give me any context for what exactly The End was aside from a thing that was planning on killing everyone and I never got it. I didn't need much. I just wanted a monologue where it explains what it's deal was and I thought that it wasn't there. I didn't need to see where it came from or anything like that. Just enough to understand it's motivation, what it's doing, and has done to keep it's presence relatively mysterious as an entity for the sake of keeping me feeling freaked out by it. 

... Turns out it IS there but in hard mode, which is astonishingly weird to me. I attempted to play it again and it's not only extremely hard but also the least inspired boss fight in the game despite being the finale. The best I can give it is that it's not a repeat of the Sonic Colors final boss.

It's so strange. Because I love that tyraid it goes on and the shifting voice. Hell, when the reveal happens that the great evil is the same voice that told Sonic to start doing stuff across the island, my jaw DID actually drop. I was okay with its presence remaining mostly subtle and mysterious because that's far scarier to me yet the final boss itself is such a huge drop off in quality and presentation from the rest. It's so sad. It's almost like they ran out of time or something which... might have even been the case, honestly.

There's a lot here that I liked and even loved to a certain extent. I find myself looking forward to the future and hoping there's a step taken towards actually following up on a lot of what's been talked about and introduced here. I do believe that the current direction is to consolidate and focus on the lore but that doesn't mean that the "current direction" can't change. We're all aware of how wishy washy they are and how good they are at keeping promises.

There is an inherent risk to going back to old bits of lore and expanding on it. It was done to not that great effect in Shadow the Hedgehog and here, while I don't think it outright ruins anything, it feels like it needed more time in the oven. Because there actually is potential for this to mean something pretty cool as far as the characters and the connections they have or had. 

As such, despite overall enjoying the story, there are parts where I feel conflicted. Mostly for what they will or won't do in the future rather than anything this game does. 

So yeah, like with most things with Sonic, the issues for me come down to there just not being enough of it.

Still. Somehow. In the longest game in the series. Oh well.

Honestly, it just feels nice to have shit to care about again. I'll criticize what's there if I must but I do still find myself wanting to encourage doing more stuff like this. Next time, let's try and be a little bit more creative than "aliens did it" though. 

I do wonder, did they really destroy it, In its entirety?

Edited November 12, 2022 by Zoomzeta

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

That said, I do want to lead with the fact that this was the most engaged I've been with a Sonic narrative within the games in well over a decade or so.

Well it's probably easier to engage with stories that aren't...comedies.

People are saying this specific thing a lot, but due to what this actually means...it's probably the least necessary thing to say.

A serious story where the...plot is actually worth caring about is a nice change of pace, just like the more lighthearted fare was.

Basically, they should never exclusively only do one or the other.

Also Sonic Forces.

[Dr. Detective]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Well it's probably easier to engage with stories that aren't...comedies.

People are saying this specific thing a lot, but due to what this actually means...it's probably the least necessary thing to say.

A serious story where the...plot is actually worth caring about is a nice change of pace, just like the more lighthearted fare was.

Basically, they should never exclusively only do one or the other.

Also Sonic Forces.

How people react to and view a piece of media is going to be different for everyone. I say it because it's necessary for me to clarify as far as how I view the Sonic series and the stories they tell. I'm not going to assume that everyone desires the same thing or is going to react to it the same way. I wasn't one of those people that considered the light-hearted fare a nice change of pace. Not even because it was light-hearted either but because I personally just thought it sucked.

Also, Sonic Forces.

[StaticMania]

The point was, it was okay for Sonic to take a break the type of stories it was doing.  It took until Secret Rings...or Unleashed for the story telling to even be considered good again.

Sonic games were struggling to tell good serious stories without being ridiculous or just boring.

The lighthearted stuff we got may have just been boring because there was no "lore" or whatever, but that stuff usually overshadowed the actual characters. It's kind of what lead to characters like Tails and Knuckles stagnating for 20 years and the only character who was allowed to develop at all was Shadow (and Blaze too, but in a handheld spinoff that gets ignored).

The "lore" didn't ever really thematically relate to any of the existing characters and wasn't explored much on its own, with better writers...the lighthearted stories could've just existed in Sonic's world as is and play with concepts that people were interested in, because the series never really allowed itself to do that.

Knuckles' bit in Frontiers is the first actual character development he's had since SA1...and it actually relates to stuff he's gone through, that's pretty amazing despite how it never really came up since then. Even disregarding the 2010's, if this game had happened after Unleashed...this development would've still come out of nowhere because he's always just been around not being the focus of a story and he has to be in the new game about the new stuff just because.

[Kuzu]

It ultimately comes down to what you personally prefer out of Sonic games; I'm almost at the end of the game (basically just have to finish the last island and kill the final boss) but the vibe I get from the story is that it has a lot of good ideas that don't quite come together. It has a lot of great moments and character-interactions don't get me wrong, but the overall plot itself is pretty messy. I was engaged myself, but now that I'm near the end, I'm kind of over it and kind of wondering what the point of it all was. 

Spoiler

Despite Sage being the focal character of the game, her sacrifice doesn't get a single reaction from Sonic...despite them having the most interactions in the game? What the fuck? Even Shadow got a respectful sendoff from him when it looked like he died. 

 

I generally prefer the over the top stupid Shonen shit with Sonic, cuz I'm a fucking child at heart who loves this shit; but the logical part of my brain can't really help notice things like that and it really impacts my immersion. I may not have personally liked the lighthearted games as much, but its much easier for me to shrug them off because the stakes and expectations are much lower there. 

 

In short; its a lot easier for me to understand a badly written story that doesn't take itself too seriously, versus a badly written story that does take itself seriously. And I feel that's why a lot of people tend to mock Sonic storytelling whenever it tries to be "serious" because as much I love all of this dumb shit...it's not well told at all, and if someone isn't immersed in the story then well....its gonna grate. But I guess the opposite has been true for Sonic fans who genuinely like the serious storytelling and the lighthearted stuff was grating to them......

 

I dunno.

[Soniman]

Random thought but I have to wonder if Sonic’s friend going off and finding their own paths might lead to some spin-offs that’ll be meant to hold us over until Frontiers 2 or whatever, just a thought