Kishimoto Confirms The Intake of Player Feedback For Frontiers

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 minutes ago, Soniman said:

t doesn’t inspire confidence if this game hasn’t been out a week and they’re already asking for feedback to improve.

I don't really get the inkling that this is some flimsy beta from them acknowledging feedback. More than anything, this seems more like an acknowledgement that stuff has been rough in the past, and they're doubling down on how things really are different this time.

Basically, confirmation that they're actually sticking with this formula and refining it, like with Unleashed.

Hence why, for a lot of people, this announcement has inspired confidence that Sonic Team do have their heads in the game.

[Rabbitearsblog]

19 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I don't really get the inkling that this is some flimsy beta from them acknowledging feedback. More than anything, this seems more like an acknowledgement that stuff has been rough in the past, and they're doubling down on how things really are different this time.

Basically, confirmation that they're actually sticking with this formula and refining it, like with Unleashed.

Hence why, for a lot of people, this announcement has inspired confidence that Sonic Team do have their heads in the game.

My only concern with all this though is that Sonic Team is not really stating to the audience about what criticisms they are seeing.  For years, there's been a lot of miscommunications between Sonic Team and the fans and whenever Sonic Team say that they are listening to the fans, they tend to do things that the fans never asked for.  I just want them to state exactly what criticisms they are seeing like are they seeing that the Cyberspace levels are the weakest parts of the game and that fans want to see them improved?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

My only concern with all this though is that Sonic Team is not really stating to the audience about what criticisms they are seeing.  For years, there's been a lot of miscommunications between Sonic Team and the fans and whenever Sonic Team say that they are listening to the fans, they tend to do things that the fans never asked for.  I just want them to state exactly what criticisms they are seeing like are they seeing that the Cyberspace levels are the weakest parts of the game and that fans want to see them improved?

I think the main reason they haven't divulged what they've taken from the criticism is, yet, is because they themselves are still deciding what to take from it. I don't expect them to immediately have the answers right there and then, given how game development tends to go.

And I do understand a healthy amount of skepticism, given past bouts.

However, I will hold that their actions of making promises of quality with this game, that they managed to follow through on, does give me much more hope than prior with them.

We're even seeing news of a small team they've even put together to maintain things on the lore and whatnot. All things coming together, this really feels like the most that the people behind the brand have been focused on quality, while actually progressing in action.

[shdowhunt60]

I do hope the takeaway they get is that people generally like the game, it's really the details and the technicalities that needs to get worked out in the future. I mean, at least the feedback that everyone has across the board is generally consistent, regardless if it's positive or negative. Kishimoto and the rest of Sonic Team have made something they can be proud of, it's just following up on what's been established and working on the execution.

[Rabbitearsblog]

47 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I do hope the takeaway they get is that people generally like the game, it's really the details and the technicalities that needs to get worked out in the future. I mean, at least the feedback that everyone has across the board is generally consistent, regardless if it's positive or negative. Kishimoto and the rest of Sonic Team have made something they can be proud of, it's just following up on what's been established and working on the execution.

I agree.  Like even though I do see some negative reviews, it's mostly problems with the gameplay rather than the concept of the game itself.  I just hope that Sonic Team continues to improve the gameplay and not wipe away this game because of a few negative reviews.

[jungle_penguins]

If focus group players aren't enough feedback, then either those players are extremely bad, or the developers aren't good at making Sonic games. Maybe even both.

[ZinogreVolt]

3 minutes ago, jungle_penguins said:

If focus group players aren't enough feedback, then either those players are extremely bad, or the developers aren't good at making Sonic games. Maybe even both.

Frontiers sucked foundationally and the game we have now is more like a cast on a broken arm, since player feedback was regular and seemingly very critical. The core problems couldn't be fixed even if what we got was ultimately still more comfortable and decent enough. Considering COVID, the development having been completely restarted once, and older leaked information of the game being noticeably different from the final product, it's fair to say that the game didn't find its footing until very late into development. Saying both would be accurate, but Frontiers did somehow make a pretty good gameplay loop, but more so in spite of itself rather than because of itself. If they can take criticisms of the final product in stride, the next game could potentially be great.

[Zoomzeta]

1 hour ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Frontiers sucked foundationally and the game we have now is more like a cast on a broken arm, since player feedback was regular and seemingly very critical. The core problems couldn't be fixed even if what we got was ultimately still more comfortable and decent enough. Considering COVID, the development having been completely restarted once, and older leaked information of the game being noticeably different from the final product, it's fair to say that the game didn't find its footing until very late into development. Saying both would be accurate, but Frontiers did somehow make a pretty good gameplay loop, but more so in spite of itself rather than because of itself. If they can take criticisms of the final product in stride, the next game could potentially be great.

On the subject of that, was he just referring to taking feedback seriously when moving to the next title, or to improve the current game itself (as in, adding Quality of life features and such)?

Edited November 13, 2022 by Zoomzeta

[Starnik]

3 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

My only concern with all this though is that Sonic Team is not really stating to the audience about what criticisms they are seeing.  For years, there's been a lot of miscommunications between Sonic Team and the fans and whenever Sonic Team say that they are listening to the fans, they tend to do things that the fans never asked for.  I just want them to state exactly what criticisms they are seeing like are they seeing that the Cyberspace levels are the weakest parts of the game and that fans want to see them improved?

I don’t think Sonic Team is ever going to do what you just suggested. Your expecting too much. 

[Rabbitearsblog]

21 minutes ago, Starnik said:

I don’t think Sonic Team is ever going to do what you just suggested. Your expecting too much. 

Yeah, I know that Sonic Team are not going to let the fans run the series like that. But it's still wishful thinking that I wish that we could see what Sonic Team is really thinking just so fans can stop complaining about what they are doing to the franchise.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Yeah, I know that Sonic Team are not going to let the fans run the series like that. But it's still wishful thinking that I wish that we could see what Sonic Team is really thinking just so fans can stop complaining about what they are doing to the franchise.

Oh, life would be much easier if all companies could be that transparent. But, for a variety of reasons (executive mandates and NDAs bring Chief among) sadly it's not that simple.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I’m intrigued by this, but it doesn’t inspire much optimism yet. I’m going to have to see more posts like this. If I see a post saying something like “I see that people would prefer to have control over Sonic more often” it would really brighten my hopes, even if it weren’t clear whether he was referring to the physics or the railroading (both of which are issues in this game). 
I had a lot of fun with Sonic Frontiers. I’d actually like them to continue in this Open Zone direction. But the details need a lot of ironing out. 

[Scritch the Cat]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:17 AM, DaBigJ said:

Honestly, and this is just based on impressions and not objective fact, but I think the only reason why there's potential is because it's a mismash of other existing formulas and elements from other and better games rather than it actually working with Sonic's core gameplay.

But that's just me

I’d say the open zone, if it functioned like how most other open-world or semi-open world games function, would actually be a great fit for Sonic’s core gameplay.  But I somehow doubt Kishimoto was ever thinking of it as such.  Rather, he made this sort of game because it was well-loved when other franchises did it, without much thought as to what makes such giant worlds appealing, which would explain why the gameplay we got in the open zone not only leaves a lot to be desired, but barely makes use of the open zone itself; instead running off various objects that are littered throughout the open zone.  

The pivotal example of this for me would be the shifts to a 2D plane on some of those segments elevated above the open zones.  While lots of things in this game don’t seem to gel well with the Sonic part of its DNA, this bit implies they’ve also missed the point of open world games.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 6:23 PM, Rabbitearsblog said:

My only concern with all this though is that Sonic Team is not really stating to the audience about what criticisms they are seeing.  For years, there's been a lot of miscommunications between Sonic Team and the fans and whenever Sonic Team say that they are listening to the fans, they tend to do things that the fans never asked for.  I just want them to state exactly what criticisms they are seeing like are they seeing that the Cyberspace levels are the weakest parts of the game and that fans want to see them improved?

 

On 11/12/2022 at 6:28 PM, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think the main reason they haven't divulged what they've taken from the criticism is, yet, is because they themselves are still deciding what to take from it. I don't expect them to immediately have the answers right there and then, given how game development tends to go.

And I do understand a healthy amount of skepticism, given past bouts.

However, I will hold that their actions of making promises of quality with this game, that they managed to follow through on, does give me much more hope than prior with them.

We're even seeing news of a small team they've even put together to maintain things on the lore and whatnot. All things coming together, this really feels like the most that the people behind the brand have been focused on quality, while actually progressing in action.

I don't think that absolutely nothing will come of this promise.  I understand why people have no real faith in this company after they spent half a decade and probably millions of dollars making this game, but at the same time, Sonic Team probably isn't too happy with the result either.  They did, after all, say they were targeting high reviews and that they hoped this game would take Sonic Team back to the top of the industry, and as pretentious at that might sound it's also not like they said anything close to that when promoting Sonic Forces or Team Sonic Racing.  They have indeed gotten some high review scores, but they've gotten some low ones, too, so on average, the reception to this game has been just that; average.  It sure as ever has not taken them back to the top of the industry with how it has some of the worst pop-in ever seen since the Nintendo 64.  So while they've yet to make any statement to show they give a crap about good physics or platforming on the open zone rather than above it, their failure to meet their own self-imposed litmus tests means they'll do at least some things to improve.

As to what those things are, one thing I think they're certain to improve from here is how the game runs and renders.  Rapid optimization has always been a large priority for Sonic games, and so I do expect them to get better at making things visible as soon as they should be visible.  They might also make some tweaks to the systems that they invented for this game, particularly the overpowered ones like fishing, farming rings with the Cyloop, and the parry.  Finally, it's not too unlikely that we will see more level design incorporated into the open zone's terrain itself, as after all, that has never been a problem for any Sonic game in the past.

As for the physics, I'm starting to think they consciously want to not improve those, but I could be wrong.

[Scar]

Its Ironic, I think people find the controls in cyberspace to be bad, because the cyberspace levels are no longer as automated as they were in Unleashed-through-Forces. So it feels janky. The levels aren't designed for the controls, because they're lifted from older games. Both 2D and 3D.

The open world feels better to control because there is more space to run around. The cyberspace levels have the exact same controls, but the levels are from Generations, Sonic 1, SA2 etc. It will never work. It convinces me that the Cyberspace levels exist basically as a crutch because they themselves felt unsure how a game consisting entirely of the open world would be received.

Its like Unleashed or Forces. Except instead of the Werehog and "Classic Sonic", they have Cyberspace. Something familiar to tide people over.

As for the actual game. Whether or not Kishimoto is the guy to take this forward, I think the concept of "Open Zones" or large spaces that Sonic can really run around and exploit his huge movement potential is a great idea in principle. They would make for some baller hubworlds if they want to continue the Cyberspace model. But then the games would need to have substantially more investment and much larger in scope. Proper original acts dotted around a few massive sandbox-esque hubworlds would take a lot of development.

I think a happy medium can be found with medium sized sandboxy levels that are more straightforward and linear. Take the boss ideas forward 100% because they're the best the series has seen....ever basically in 3D. Rework Sonic's combat to have a bit more focus on staying moving.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The cyberspace levels are why I completely skipped them and went fishing with Big instead come the third island.

Hilarious to think that 2 decades after SA1 that Fishing would actually be more fun, or at least less of a pain in the ass, than speed stages.

Ironically, the fact that I could even do that was a good bonus, because I like having that many options to complete objectives like that.

[Scritch the Cat]

22 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The cyberspace levels are why I completely skipped them and went fishing with Big instead come the third island.

Hilarious to think that 2 decades after SA1 that Fishing would actually be more fun, or at least less of a pain in the ass, than speed stages.

Ironically, the fact that I could even do that was a good bonus, because I like having that many options to complete objectives like that.

It kind of makes you wonder, though—as does this game winning Tokyo Game Show—how much does Sonic being Sonic really matter to them?  Is their line of thinking just to prioritize him doing what other game characters can do, in hopes that their popularity rubs off on him?

[Zoomzeta]

36 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

It kind of makes you wonder, though—as does this game winning Tokyo Game Show—how much does Sonic being Sonic really matter to them?  Is their line of thinking just to prioritize him doing what other game characters can do, in hopes that their popularity rubs off on him?

Half the time? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

It kind of makes you wonder, though—as does this game winning Tokyo Game Show—how much does Sonic being Sonic really matter to them?  Is their line of thinking just to prioritize him doing what other game characters can do, in hopes that their popularity rubs off on him?

I mean, don't get me wrong, everything else outside of the Cyberspace levels are perfectly fine.

I like roaming around at the speed of sound, exploring the islands, and fighting the sub-bosses like Spider, Tank, and Tower (the mooks such as the Soldiers, however, shouldn't be damage sponges). It's really just the Cyberspace levels that are my main gripe--they somehow took Generations and made it a pain in the ass to play that I avoid them at all costs.

[Scritch the Cat]

17 hours ago, Zoomzeta said:

Half the time? 

Well yeah, but it's odd that this time it seems to have worked, at least for the people whose opinions they seem to value most.

16 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It's really just the Cyberspace levels that are my main gripe--they somehow took Generations and made it a pain in the ass to play that I avoid them at all costs.

It kind of reminds me of the Project Hero developers explaining why they wouldn't make that framework open-source; they suspected if they did, people would immediately try porting official stages from other games to it, only for them to not work well with physics that they were not designed for or vice-versa.

But it seems like these stages are finicky beyond even what one would expect from such a scenario.

[Starnik]

It’ll be interesting to see how Sonic Team incorporates the feedback into the next few games. 

[Rabbitearsblog]

9 minutes ago, Starnik said:

It’ll be interesting to see how Sonic Team incorporates the feedback into the next few games. 

I just hope that Sonic Team improves the games from this point forward.

[The Man On The Inside]

My hope is that enough noise was made, and continues to get made (in a constructive way that is) about slope physics and rolling down hills (which was boiled down to just "momentum" unfairly) is a piece of vital feedback that's taken seriously and gets through, because that would synergise so well with the open zone. And I don't think it's too controversial to say the open zone format should stay.

[Rabbitearsblog]

19 minutes ago, The Man On The Inside said:

My hope is that enough noise was made, and continues to get made (in a constructive way that is) about slope physics and rolling down hills (which was boiled down to just "momentum" unfairly) is a piece of vital feedback that's taken seriously and gets through, because that would synergise so well with the open zone. And I don't think it's too controversial to say the open zone format should stay.

They did mentioned that they want to keep the open world format. I just hope they keep up with it for the rest of the decade.

[Scar]

3 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I just hope that Sonic Team improves the games from this point forward.

Where have I heard this a thousand times before?

[Blueknight V2.0]

Just curious, and I have no idea if this has been confirmed yet. But in regards to the "taking feedback seriously" statement, was he referring to Frontiers itself with additional patches to address some issues, or just for a future title? I'd hope they do the former 1st before doing the latter.

Because Frontiers is already really good! I've already beaten it twice & got the platinum. But if they could fix the pop-in, and more importantly, allow the speed settings from the open islands, & add a permanent drift on L2, to the Cyberspace stages. On top of making the homing attacks on enemies as fast as they are with balloons (S-Rank purposes). And for the love of all that's good, who thought it was a good idea for speed & ring capacity upgrades to take so long to do after collecting soo many Koco!?

Addressing those 4-things alone, would be a massive improvement for the game honestly.