The Sonic canon

[ArtFenix]

No, Tikal said in one of the final cutscenes in Sa that "he(Chaos) will destroy the world like he did before" And what world was she talking about?

P.S.Of course, Shadow th is canon!

Edited March 15, 2009 by ArtFenix

[JezMM]

No, Tikal said in one of the final cutscenes in Sa that "he(Chaos) will destroy the world like he did before" And what world was she talking about?

This is true, but didn't she seal him away almost instantly after he was released, killing Pachamac and the others? I think in that line she was just been a drama queen or simply implying he WOULD have destroyed the world had she not sealed him away.

Either way, Chaos was neutralised by Super Sonic and it was quite a pleasant ending. I'd rather have a monster of the week than ruin a nice ending like that by making him the main antagonist again (I believe he became evil again in Sonic Battle, but not as a main plot point... though I never made it that far into the game admittidly).

[-Mark-]

I don't see why everyone is listing Sonic CD before Sonic 2. Tails still had a brief cameo in that, even if it was stupidly minor. That and it came out after Sonic 2 as is is sort of suggests that it's set after Sonic 2.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of time frame Sonics 2, 3 and Knuckles happen within. I mean, technically shouldn't Sonic 3 and Knuckles happen over the course of only a day or two at best? I'm just not sure how soon after Sonic 2 Sonic 3 is set.

[JezMM]

I consider CD before Sonic 2 for two reasons:

Firstly, Tails just... isn't there. There are very, VERY few adventures since Sonic 2 where Sonic and Tails haven't been together out of choice. Even when he hasn't tagged along himself he's offered support (Sonic 3D, Sonic Spinball, Sonic Unleashed etc).

And secondly, it seems it was originally planned to be released first, due to that hidden artwork of Tails saying "SEE YOU NEXT GAME!" or something on it.

As for time frames... well, Sonic and Tails arrive during the day, travel through Carnival Night the following evening, and the time of day never changes during Sonic & Knuckles... so yeah, basically Sonic and Tails arrive on Angel Island one day and leave the next with everything cleared up. Whadda pair.

EDIT: Oh, actually it seems a bit sunsetty in Sandopolis... maybe night passes while they're in the Lava Reef and Hidden Palace... It was a weekend job then.

Edited March 15, 2009 by JezMM

[-Mark-]

Still, what of the time between Sonic 2 and 3? At one point I assumed 3 was directly after 2, but now I'm not sure. D=

[Yong]

In my view all officially licensed games are canon excluding some select few games like the kid ride arcade games which put Sonic into a fantasy role and don't have any real story beyond that.

The actual order of events is up for interpretation. I've written up a set of rules for all games that points out, with logical reasoning, which games can and can't go before and/or after other games in the series. I'll agree with any sort of order someone wants to use, even if they exclude some games. But if they break the rules then I'd like to say something. While I think I've written them up in a way that should be agreeable to most educated fans, the rules themselve are still debateble, though no other living human has looked at them yet. I will have others critique them eventually. But I'm not posting them here cause I'll get too many tl;dr responses.

I don't see why everyone is listing Sonic CD before Sonic 2. Tails still had a brief cameo in that, even if it was stupidly minor. That and it came out after Sonic 2 as is is sort of suggests that it's set after Sonic 2.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of time frame Sonics 2, 3 and Knuckles happen within. I mean, technically shouldn't Sonic 3 and Knuckles happen over the course of only a day or two at best? I'm just not sure how soon after Sonic 2 Sonic 3 is set.

Again it's all up to interpretation. However I will say this: The same reasoning that people seem to be using that makes them place Sonic CD before Sonic 2 can also be extraploated to moving Sonic 3/K between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Yong

[Diogenes]

I'd rather have a monster of the week than ruin a nice ending like that by making him the main antagonist again (I believe he became evil again in Sonic Battle, but not as a main plot point... though I never made it that far into the game admittidly).

Actually he doesn't. He's just sort of...there. I think there's something said about him coming out in times of crisis, but that's all the game says about him, and he's completely optional anyway.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of time frame Sonics 2, 3 and Knuckles happen within. I mean, technically shouldn't Sonic 3 and Knuckles happen over the course of only a day or two at best? I'm just not sure how soon after Sonic 2 Sonic 3 is set.

The Japanese manual for Sonic 3 places it at a few days after Sonic 2. Basically, the Death Egg falls from the sky at the end of Sonic 2, it lands on Angel Island, Eggman tricks Knuckles and starts rebuilding the Death Egg and building all the other stuff he's got on Angel Island, and then Sonic and Tails notice something's up so they go to investigate.

Sonic 3 to S&K, yeah, it's just a span of a few days and 3 leads directly into &K.

So there's really no space in there for CD to fit; either it's before Sonic 2 or after S3&K. And I agree with JezMM's reasoning; CD fits much better before Sonic 2.

[SuperStingray]

Actually he doesn't. He's just sort of...there. I think there's something said about him coming out in times of crisis, but that's all the game says about him, and he's completely optional anyway.

Yeah, I don't consider Chaos canon in that story. He just appeared for the sole purpose of being able to train Emerl with him.

[Badnik Zero]

Still, what of the time between Sonic 2 and 3?

Long enough for Sonic to still be running around with the Chaos Emeralds, and at least according to me long enough for Knuckles to know they're missing. IMO, this is Knuckles' reason for believing Robotnik, because Sonic has the emeralds for himself.

Also, long enough for Eggman to begin restoring his fallen Death Egg to operational. The man has resources, but I can't see that taking less than a couple weeks. Whatever it is, I'd say it's pretty soon after the events of Sonic 2, even if you wanna say immediately after.

Implied by dialogue in Expert mode on Shadow - which admittedly is non-canon, but I imagine the character interactions that do happen very plausible.

Heh, yeah. Especially since the G.U.N. commander meets with the president of Japan, which was just a bit of fun. Japan isn't really supposed to exist in Sonic's world. Maybe it's called... Wapan or Nippot, or something vaguely like that.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Badnikz

[123654]

No, Tikal said in one of the final cutscenes in Sa that "he(Chaos) will destroy the world like he did before" And what world was she talking about?

I think she was just exaggerating. I mean, the flashback clearly shows that Tikal seals him right after he killed the echidnas.

[SuperStingray]

No, Tikal said in one of the final cutscenes in Sa that "he(Chaos) will destroy the world like he did before" And what world was she talking about?

That was worded very oddly, but what she meant was that Chaos destroyed their civilization and he may destroy everything again. It's not like he actually blew up the world.

[Toby]

Sonic Adventure's English translation was pretty bad to begin with, so it was probably just worded odd.

[Scarecrow]

That was worded very oddly, but what she meant was that Chaos destroyed their civilization and he may destroy everything again. It's not like he actually blew up the world.

I think it's not unfair to suggest he did destroy the world though. The world doens't have to be "blown up" to be detsoryed and w eonly need to look at Japanese culture and media to see there unique take on the apocalypse. The end of the world in western culture tends to be very 'final' but the apocalypse, destruction of the world in Japan tends to be more a period of change. There's always a fallout, the world often recovers and rebuildds, often with more advance technology. It's not difficult to see that this has some of its routes in Hiroshima and it makes sense than any country undergoing that would have a unique persepctive of apocalyptic scenarios. So yeah, Perfect Chaos may well have flooded and destroyed as much of the world as he could but then the survivors has thousands of years, or whetever, to rebuild.

Also, some stuff I said on canon in another thread which is probably relevant here:

"Canon" rarely matters anyway, especially in a kids computer game series. Every decade or so the whole target audience has shifted on and the main demographic is a whole new generation. Sure, there's fans and hardcore gamers, but the majority of the money is made by joe public. That's why the whole "age debate" of characters is silly. They don't age, if they jump forward a few years like Amy, it isn't time passing, it's a shift in the characters interpretation. The ages are simply there for the kids to identify the characters. Sonic is the age he is because thats the main audience age, for identification. When you're young "18" seems really old and adult so Vector and Rouge are the mature character. Charmy and Tails are younger because they're kids, and that age is seen as kids to the target early teen audience.

Mere continuity issues such as this are fun for fans to debate but the best best is to shrug and take it how you like. Chaotic can be canon if you want. The characters didn't die a ton of times in "canon" bt they did when I plauyed it. There's some liberties, we as fans have the option, and the right, to smooth these aspects over and ignore and alter our interpretations to fit a larger overall continuity because no one else will or care to.

- Scarecrow

[Badnik Zero]

Scarecrow, if I could thumbs up your post, or give you a piece of e-pie or something, I would.

The series has shown that canon isn't static, where minor confusing issues are concerned.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Badnikz

[Yong]

Indeed. The canon would be important in some other games like Resident Evil. But here, not so much.

Still, fans get bored. That's how I ended up writing up the order rules to kill time.

[SuperLink]

I consider Chaos canon in Battle. I don't see why not, he's not evil from the looks of things, he just offers to fight Emerl if Emerl wants.

I think it should be noted that the characters added to Sonic Channel may be what ST consider canon. From that I think we can assume both Sonic Battle and Sonic Rush Adventure (therefore the first Rush) are canon seeing as Emerl and Marine have profiles up there.

[BaronSFel001]

This is one topic I love discussing, since figuring out what goes where really puts the whole storyline into a new light. The way I go about this is to be as all-inclusive as reasonably possible. Some titles are iffy, but more often than not a reinterpretation of certain details fits them in nicely. The order they come in the storyline is much harder to determine than which games actually qualify to fit in the overall storyline, but several sources of secondary research have helped in my pursuit of answers. I will now present my revived list - note that it only goes so far, since there are many recent games that I have yet to play or even become familiar with.

Legend:

++: Definitely canon

+: Most likely (though strictly unconfirmed) canon

-: Works in canon with little difficulty

--: Works in canon with high questionability

Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit) ++

(The following two could switch with each other)

Sonic the Hedgehog (8-bit) + (Scrap Brain has finished construction)

Tails Adventures + (Japanese storyline which places this before Sonic and Tails meet)

SegaSonic the Hedgehog - (Had it come a year later, Ray/Mighty likely would have been replaced by Tails/Knuckles)

Sonic the Hedgehog CD ++ (Sonic's dash abilities still developing)

Sonic Labyrinth - (Could be here or during Tails Skypatrol, but if it is here, it explains how Sonic perfects his spin dash)

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-bit) ++

Sonic 3 & Knuckles ++ (The combined Hyper Sonic/Super Tails story comes before the Hyper Knuckles story)

Chaotix + (The manual story implicitly places this after S3&K)

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-bit) + (The first of what I call the South Island miniseries)

Sonic & Tails + (The second South Island game - distinguished by the 6 Chaos Emeralds that first appeared in Sonic 1)

Sonic Drift -- (Placed on South Island, Knuckles not involved yet)

Sonic & Tails 2 + (Direct sequel to its predecessor, but probably does not take place on South Island)

Sonic Drift 2 -- (Fang/Nack involved, necessarily placing it after Sonic & Tails 2)

Tails Skypatrol - (Sonic and Tails are obviously not inseparable)

Sonic Blast + (Tails not present due to fighting Witchkart)

Sonic 3D + (Lack of Super Sonic can be explained by considering Flicky Island's 7 a separate set of Chaos Emeralds)

Sonic R + (Targets are the 7 Chaos Emeralds from Angel Island, no longer needed by the Master Emerald at this point)

Sonic the Fighters + (Tails' Workshop completed and in service, 8 Emeralds not all from Angel Island)

Sonic Pocket Adventure + (The transition from classic to modern: mid-game brings new Eggman and new Tornado)

Sonic Advance + (The sequel to Pocket Adventure, Amy metamorphoses)

Sonic Advance 2 + (Placed here due to Cream being present in Sonic Adventure DX, obviously helping Sonic & co.)

Sonic Adventure ++ (Counting DX version modifications)

Sonic Shuffle - (Takes place in the imagination, anyway)

Sonic Adventure 2 ++

Sonic Pinball Party - (Amy remembers Casinopolis in Sonic Heroes, a place she never visited in Sonic Adventure)

Sonic Heroes ++

Shadow the Hedgehog ++

Sonic Battle + (Shadow no longer amnesiac, on good terms with Rouge)

Sonic Advance 3 +

That is as far as I can go: I have never played Rush (though it is likely after Sonic Advance 3), Riders is very ambiguous, Sonic 2006 is erased and rendered irrelevant, and anything beyond that I have yet to explore (or even play in many cases).

[HungryJack]

SPOILERS of course:

The timeline as I see it:

Sonic 1

Sonic 2

Sonic 3

Sonic & Knuckles

Sonic CD - After S3&K due to Tails' cameo in the sound test, and more importantly it introduces the final Sonic robot, Metal Sonic.

Knuckles' Chaotix - Metal Sonic returns and the Chaotix meet. Espio, Charmy, and Vector form a detective agency afterwards. The characters are not given ages in the Japanese version so that is irrelevant.

Sonic 3D Blast - Introduces the Flickies. Sonic Adventure will later contain two songs from this game.

Sonic R - Eggman's "Ex-World Grand Prix" in Riders can be seen as a slight nod to his "World Grand Prix" scheme in this game.

Sonic Adventure

Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Advance - Placed after the Adventure series due to Amy's reintroduction in Adventure 1.

Sonic Advance 2

Sonic Heroes

Shadow the Hedgehog

Sonic Battle - Shadow has his memories back and an apparent injury at the beginning of the game, possibly from his fight with Black Doom. Sonic mentions Shadow saving humanity as well.

Sonic Advance 3 - Continues directly from Battle

Sonic 06

Sonic Rush - The Blaze we meet here is a different Blaze than from Sonic's world (I know this will be controversial but I'm running with it).

Sonic Rush Adventure - Eggman and Eggman Nega are still working together.

(Sonic Rush 3) - If the game is made and Nega is involved, it will go here.

Sonic Riders

Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity - The heroes all have their extreme gear at the very beginning, suggesting that no other games come in between Riders 1 and this.

(Sonic Riders 3) - If the heroes start off with their extreme gear again, then it goes here.

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood - You can choose to make Sonic and Amy a couple near the end, which I will reference in just a moment.

(Sonic Chronicles 2) - Will go here due to the first game's cliffhanger.

Sonic Unleashed - Set after the Chronicles series due to the debut of SA-55 aka "Ergo," who will likely appear in future games in the series. Since he is not present in Chronicles, this game must be set after it. Near the end of the game in Shamar, you can choose to take Amy on a date after Sonic's adventure is over. This is in line with the choice you can make in Chronicles to make them a couple.

Sonic and the Secret Rings - I set the storybook series after Unleashed due to Eggman being severely defeated with virtually nothing left. He'll surely be back later, but this leaves the door open for some new villains to take over for a while.

Sonic and the Black Knight - Sonic is supposed to meet Amy for a date, which is in line with the choices you can make in Chronicles and Unleashed.

(Third Sonic Storybook game) Will most likely go here even if it is released after the next main series game.

(Sonic's next main series game)

Edited March 16, 2009 by HungryJack

[HungryJack]

Part two: Why certain games are not canon:

Sonic Spinball - Based off of the cartoons and stated to take place on Mobius.

Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine - Same as above.

Sonic Pocket Adventure - The Silver Sonic robot from Sonic 2 is in this. According to my timeline, this makes no sense as Eggman has since moved on to the superior Metal Sonic.

Sonic Pinball Party - This could be canon if you really wanted it to be, but it doesn't have to be because Amy was in front of Casinopolis in Sonic Adventure. Amy mentioning Casinopolis in Heroes is the main reason why some people consider it canon. You can place it after Advance 2 if you wish. I personally don't consider it part of the timeline. Also, other Sonic Team characters appear right on the box, making it more of a Sonic Team game than a Sonic game.

Sonic the Fighters - There are 8 Chaos Emeralds. Tails having a fake wouldn't make sense as he first explained that fake emeralds could be made in Sonic Adventure 2.

All the Game Gear games - They are their own timeline. Also, South Island does not sink after the Chaos Emeralds are removed from it in the main series (the Japanese story of Sonic Chaos involves South Island sinking). Sonic Triple Trouble's Japanese manual clearly calls Knuckles a "stranger," meaning that it is an alternate first meeting with him. Since all the other Game Gear games are connected to this game and Sonic Chaos, they cannot be canon.

Sonic Rivals Series - This is going to be a long one! Without even connecting it to the main series, the games don't make sense. Allow me to explain. In Sonic Rivals Silver comes back from a "good" future to stop Eggman Nega from changing the past. He is successful, and returns to the future. In Sonic Rivals 2, he comes from a future ruined by the Ifrit. He and the others stop the Ifrit from destroying the present and Silver returns to his own time.

Here's where the story is flawed. If Eggman Nega went back in time and released the Ifrit, Silver (or at least that Silver) would no longer exist. A different Silver would have come back. But it is clearly the same character as he remembers his meeting with Sonic and the crew from Sonic Rivals 1. Also, after he defeats the Ifrit, he should then be wiped from existence once again, just as Sonic and Elise were in Sonic 06, but he wasn't.

Let's assume they are trying to go with a split timeline then. This would also be impossible as Silver clearly stated that his world was destroyed by the Ifrit. But this was not the case in Sonic Rivals 1!

Neither the single timeline or split timeline theories work for the Rivals series, that is why it cannot be canon.

If anyone disagrees, please feel free to discuss it. This is just my interpretation of the series' timeline. Nothing is set in stone.

Edited March 16, 2009 by HungryJack

[Yong]

Why don't we just agree that time travel makes no freaking sense and let Rivals at least be canon in its own continuity? But you're free to your opinion.

[123654]

Rivals can actually make sense with Rush. It's 2K6 that makes all the plot holes.

[SuperLink]

I don't see how Rush and Rivals can coexist TBH. Rivals has no mention of Blaze, and Rush has no mention of Silver. In Rivals, Nega and Silver are from the future, in Rush, Nega and Blaze are from another dimension (and in said dimension Blaze was born and raised as a member of the royal family, making Sonic 2006 even harder to believe alongside it)

One way to look at Sonic 06 would be if you called it a "what if" scenario. ST wanted Sonic to save the princess, ST wanted Blaze to be in it, it makes sense, but I doubt they'll ever speak up on it.

[123654]

It involves some fanon, but I think that Rivals and Rush can fit together by factoring in Eggman Nega being a liar.

First he's in Blaze's dimension and teams up with Eggman disguised as his counterpart (notice how there are no other "Nega" characters in Blaze's world) and after two defeats, he attempts to do a suicide attack and destroy the entire world along with himself. Marine, Super Sonic and Burning Blaze stop him and destroy the Egg Wizard.

So Eggman Nega goes back to the future of Sonic's world, where he reveals his true identity as Eggman's descendant and decides to take his revenge by destroying Sonic's world rather than ruling Blaze's world.

Just a theory, but it works.

[Diogenes]

Sonic CD - After S3&K due to Tails' cameo in the sound test, and more importantly it introduces the final Sonic robot, Metal Sonic.

I don't get this, the constant fawning over Metal Sonic. Yes, he's the only one that survived past SA, and he's the one that most resembles Sonic, but how does that make him any better a robot? He gets his ass handed to him just the same as the other ones!

Sonic 3D Blast - Introduces the Flickies. Sonic Adventure will later contain two songs from this game.

Sonic 1 introduced flickies. And the songs have no bearing on anything.

Sonic R - Eggman's "Ex-World Grand Prix" in Riders can be seen as a slight nod to his "World Grand Prix" scheme in this game.

That doesn't make it canon.

Sonic Battle - Shadow has his memories back and an apparent injury at the beginning of the game, possibly from his fight with Black Doom.

Why does everyone think this? He's fine at the start of the story, a guard robot hits him, then he's injured. Fully self-contained, no need to make baseless connections like that.

Sonic mentions Shadow saving humanity as well.

He did that in SA2, tho'. And considering this game was written before ShtH came out, that's what they must be referring to.

Sonic Rush - The Blaze we meet here is a different Blaze than from Sonic's world (I know this will be controversial but I'm running with it).

I don't buy it. There's a Blaze 200 years in the future of Sonic's world that is completely identical to the one in a parallel dimension in the apparent equivalent of Sonic's time? That's one galaxy-sized hell of a coincidence.

Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity - The heroes all have their extreme gear at the very beginning, suggesting that no other games come in between Riders 1 and this.

...that's a pretty absurd assumption to make.

Sonic Unleashed - Set after the Chronicles series due to the debut of SA-55 aka "Ergo," who will likely appear in future games in the series. Since he is not present in Chronicles, this game must be set after it.

...you have no way of knowing if Ergo is ever going to appear again, and even if he does, that doesn't imply that Unleashed must come after Chronicles.

Near the end of the game in Shamar, you can choose to take Amy on a date after Sonic's adventure is over. This is in line with the choice you can make in Chronicles to make them a couple.

It's also in line with the way the characters have always been portrayed.

Sonic and the Secret Rings - I set the storybook series after Unleashed due to Eggman being severely defeated with virtually nothing left.

He doesn't seem any more defeated after Unleashed than he did after almost any other game.

In Sonic Rivals 2, he comes from a future ruined by the Ifrit.

Actually looking through the script I don't see anything that says Silver's world is already destroyed. Sounds more like he somehow knew Nega was going to do it, but hadn't done it yet (despite it being in the past...), so he went to stop it.

Yes, it's nonsensical, but nearly all time travel is. Hell, the mere act of someone going back in time, even if all they did was appear in the past and stand there for a second, would change things such that you'd end up with a (perhaps only infinitesimally slightly) different version of that person. But of course that makes for a shitty story, so they ignore that conclusion, just as they ignore what you're proposing.

[Yong]

It involves some fanon, but I think that Rivals and Rush can fit together by factoring in Eggman Nega being a liar.

First he's in Blaze's dimension and teams up with Eggman disguised as his counterpart (notice how there are no other "Nega" characters in Blaze's world) and after two defeats, he attempts to do a suicide attack and destroy the entire world along with himself. Marine, Super Sonic and Burning Blaze stop him and destroy the Egg Wizard.

So Eggman Nega goes back to the future of Sonic's world, where he reveals his true identity as Eggman's descendant and decides to take his revenge by destroying Sonic's world rather than ruling Blaze's world.

Just a theory, but it works.

Well if you take the fact that Eggman Nega winds up locked in another dimension at the end of Rivals 2, one could theorize that he wandered other dimensions, trying to get home, when he ended up in Blaze's dimension, which would set the Rivals games before Rush. Some could go as far as suggesting that it is Blaze's dimension they went to in Rivals 2. The fact that Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy are never made aware that they're fighting Eggman Nega makes the suggestion that this takes place before Rush when they're finally formally intorduced. There was no need to hide this fact if they already knew of his existence.