Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation discusses tonal dissonance in video games...using Sonic Frontiers.

[ZinogreVolt]

Steven Universe has lopsided writing quality and a very passionate fanbase, to put it mildly. Much the same as Sonic. I think Sonic's been on a hot streak in terms of writing between the comics, Movie 2, Frontiers, and Prime... but stuff like 06 and Shadow definitely got the asskickings they deserve. 

[jungle_penguins]

I haven't watched this guy in years, like he makes some fun points but is way too cynical (is most of it is an act?). Like Diogenes said everything here has been stated already elsewhere, and I actually forgot about the toilet humor in these videos.

But I like this topic and the other topics around it so I'll watch. First note, "patient zero" is Sonic Adventure 2, or Sonic Adventure if you really want to be mean. Shadow the Hedgehog is just the glaringly obvious example in the middle of the run. There's a point in these arguments where it accidently goes to a specific kind of issue, which boils down to "the problem is this game has violence and it doesn't fit". I don't think it's particularly wrong, but it's a very boring stance especially in the realm of AAA video games. Not like there's going to be AAA Myst or something, though that be an interesting topic on its own.  Side note, never played Uncharted but also never understood the complaints in the context of how Indiana Jones kills people, and everyone(?) is cool with that. Like it doesn't seem that bad besides typical magic bullet dodging. The old Bioshock complaints make more sense. Though If God of War is actually like the video says then that's not great synergy.

Frontier's tone and gameplay, I haven't played the game (still wonder if I should), but I can feel the melancholy despite knowing very little about the cutscenes and story. Like that stuff is a big part of the game it's impressive and cool how they pulled it off. The action stages capture an impressive action moodiness, right down to the results screen. I think Forces pulled off its tone well, and Frontiers does the same but has a different and much more difficult direction to do, so that's neat. Like the tone fits the gameplay which fits the music which fits the story which fits the everything. (Except that opening cutscene thing, Sonic looks super out of place in that with the grass.)

But does it fit Sonic as a whole? It seems to fit the game and narrative it's trying to tell, whatever that is, grass aside. The problem is if it fits the idea of Sonic. Somewhat different topic from the video I'm segwaying to, even though there's a lot of crossover. Like Sonic isn't destroying robots and saying "we shouldn't destroy robots" so Frontier's doesn't have that kind of dissonance. It's a matter of is this Sonic is/isn't nonsensical in a different way.

Like okay, the idea is if it works it works, if it doesn't well there's problems. That's fine, but sometimes it's a problem hidden when it works however is it really that bad?  This is a slightly different topic from the God of War or Uncharted examples. There are times where I wonder if Batman being taken super seriously was more silly and with dissonance than insightful. Rich guy in a nylon suit being a detective versus some criminals, fair for a comic book. Now often it has morphed into a grounded world with a mega corporation that produces a sleek bullet proof armored suit with massive amounts of technology, and a guy waging a war in a city that's so cursed in some fiction, it's literally cursed. To maintain that status quo of never killing and always fighting yet tie it to a brooding tone and attempts of serious minded world building. Isn't that like, really bad, but we all love it and see it as near flawless. What makes Sonic's lack of tonal logic any worse? Maybe his blue color shouldn't be as bright or something?

I thoroughly enjoyed Archie Sonic in it's pre-reboot run anyhow so I just confuse myself with this stuff.

[ZinogreVolt]

There's some degree of psychological dissonance at play that's always been there, especially for mediums and stories that are seen as more "grown up". Sonic's comics and cartoons can get away with having more serious stories, because people who would find the idea of Sonic taking itself seriously as being silly are probably predisposed to the belief that cartoons and comics are kiddy/childish anyway. That's not to say that there haven't been mature and successful stories told as both of those things, but there is a prevailing belief among many that those things are, for one reason or another, meant for children. That's usually why film adaptations of comic books and TV shows tend to considerably dilute or tone down elements adapted from the comics, so they can be more palatable for a wider audience.

Games are in a comparable spot, these days. Games with more cartoonish, abstract, or otherwise comic/manga-like appearances are consistently just not going to be praised as much as games like God of War 2018 or The Last of Us. Those games are not watershed moments for stories or storytelling for the medium, but they have good production values and an overall air of sophistication to them brought on by just being more grounded. There are exceptions for this to be certain, but they are only ever just that: exceptions. Kingdom Hearts and anything that even suggests having Tetsuya Nomura's hand in creation (even if it's just character design) will be dragged through the mud for a variety of reasons that are oftentimes unfair and filled with double standards. There is a prevailing issue in games' discussion where many people tend to infantilize or downplay stories that express themselves through different cultural means. It was especially bad back in the odd 2010s where there was a very explicit stigma towards Japanese games, and games like Nier that are beloved now were shot down back then for being "weird". That line of thinking hasn't gone away, and I think it applies to Sonic as well, at least to some extent. 

Sonic carries similar problems, plus the extra baggage that there are still folks who believe the games should have never pursued more involved and emotionally driven narratives in the first place. That's a completely fair belief, given that the games themselves didn't have a whole lot of interest in pursuing that prior to Adventure, and the stories themselves being all over the place in terms of quality and narrative consistency. Having said that, I don't think it's presumptuous to suggest that some people who are predisposed to believing that Sonic games shouldn't have involved stories are probably going to be more critical of them, maybe sometimes even unfairly so. But that line of thinking applies to anything, if a person's first impressions of something are biased and/or negative, it stands to reason that they're going to be a bit more eager to be critical of it. The inverse is also completely true. It's unfortunately something that applies especially to stories, where individual interpretation plays a bigger role in understanding them.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

"Setting a good example for future successors" IE Kratos pivoting from the violent rampages of past games, to teach his son that there's a better way, which he straight up explicitly states multiple times. The arc of the first game revolves around Atreus working up a bloodlust for the gods and Kratos being concerned because it's a reflection of him. These games are about violence, because they're sequels to the original games which were about violence. 

I disliked the first game so much that I didn't bother with Ragnarok so my perception isn't based on whatever happened in the new game, but I genuinely think it's silly to fill a god of war game with throwaway monsters  and enemies for Kratos to still get his over the top kill animations going on with no commentary, while also trying to balance the idea that Kratos's violent tendencies are corrosive in the narrative. It tries to have it's cake and eat it too in a way that made me check out. Either you want to actually be an action game or not. 

I don't really think that's the point God of War is trying to make, though. It's not about teaching Atreus that violence is bad, never do it. Kratos is trying to give him the skills to survive and protect himself from the numerous dangers out in the wild, but also that violence shouldn't be the immediate first answer to every problem they face, and that it should be done in necessity for survival, nothing more. Atreus working up a bloodlust for the gods isn't because of Kratos wanting him to go down a path of non-violence, it's because Kratos only wanted to teach him the skills required to survive in a world filled with throwaway monsters, and undead ice creatures rising up from the grave, and Atreus took the worst lessons from that to heart, especially when he develops the god complex, and thinks he's free to slaughter anyone for fun. In the scenarios you mention, those are situations where the enemies are typically mindless, and are out only for blood. It's either kill or be killed.

In the situations where they're facing actual living people, those are the scenarios where Kratos is usually attempting to teach Atreus reason, and where the bloodlust situation comes up the most, with Atreus going power mad upon discovering he's a god himself, and therefore believing himself above it all, and it's also worth mentioning that Kratos' own development hinges upon realising Atreus is becoming a reflection of himself. He starts the game off silently angry at the world around him, in the middle of grief for Faye's death, with very little patience for anyone that irritates him, and further violence for anyone who poses a threat to him.

It's only later in the game, when he starts seeing Atreus picking up his worse traits, particularly when he shouts at Sidri and gives him the 'little people's little problems' rant that Kratos realises his own behaviour to others around him, and the effect it's had on Atreus. Kratos goes from a few warnings at Baldur to the start to a immediate life-threatening fight, and shunning Freya upon discovering she's a god, to warning and even sparing Baldur repeatedly, and doing all he can to save Freya's life because he deems her a friend. It's as much of a learning experience to Kratos as it is Atreus, and it's from seeing Atreus become a reflection of himself, even though he's trying to change that makes him realise that he's still falling into the same pit-traps. He only starts to seriously change his attitude, as well as be more open about himself to both Atreus and himself and try to be a better person when he sees what he's doing to Atreus.

And Ragnarok further reinforces it. Without going into major spoilers, a big part of the plot is the idea of going immediately to war with Asgard and Odin, and Kratos making it clear that if it becomes a absolute necessity, then nothing can be helped, but if it's avoidable, if there's another course of action, then he will seek it first. It's not about war and violence being as wrong as possible, it's that there's other solutions, other means of solving problems that can be found, and violence should only be used as a means of survival and necessity, rather than used to gain pleasure in meaningless slaughter, as Kratos' rampages in the past had been used for. 

I'd argue The Last of Us Part 2 is far more accurate example than God of War in that regard. The whole game's plot is all about cycles of violence and revenge, and how bloodlust only creates more bloodlust for others, and how it only damages and hurts everyone around them. How these 'nameless mooks' are actual survivors and people as well, yet the game still expects you to mow them down en mass via engaging stealth combat that rewards you for actively engaging in it most of the time.

Not to mention the fact that by the time you reach Abby's campaign, they might as well throw that out altogether because your main villains become a cartoonishly evil cult, as well as sadistic raiders that the game has absolutely no sympathy for, and portrays both as irredeemably terrible in all regards, so it's more than fine to mow through them as her. If anything, I'd argue that's a lot more counter-intuitive to the plot and messages they're trying to achieve than anything that God of War (either of the two) attempts.

[azoo]

I get the tonal dissonance argument with Frontiers, even if I don't agree with how he goes about it.

As Wraith said, moving around Sonic and experiencing that speed or flow feels like it should be joyous and exhilarating, but Frontiers is a game that is too caught up in it's dreary mood or introspective feelings and it causes this sort of clash for me. I feel like Sonic games should probably put that feeling of joy, coolness and grace forward if they're going to make an open world game about moving freely, but I guess Sonic Team thought whatever story it had to tell was bigger than that. Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if it was just another boost game, or if it was the second game in this style, but the first game to do this new approach I feel like should've set the standard rather than feel like it was actively trying to defy it.

But IDK. I don't like how Sonic fans go all one way thinking this level of dissonance is fine, but I'm not keen on writing off deeper or more experimental content like old boomers do, either. That said, I don't think it's necessarily some hyper-specific tightrope to cross. It just makes more sense to me for Sonic to be running around big colorful worlds doing crazy shit and the tone is flashy and fun, but let the sliders push to a bit more serious or epic when the going gets grim. Capture the silliness with the coolness in the same swing.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Steven Universe has lopsided writing quality and a very passionate fanbase, to put it mildly. Much the same as Sonic. I think Sonic's been on a hot streak in terms of writing between the comics, Movie 2, Frontiers, and Prime... but stuff like 06 and Shadow definitely got the asskickings they deserve. 

The thing that allows something like Frontiers to work while 06 fell flat on its face in the tonal department is because,  unlike 06, Frontiers remembered to have an important balance that kept it consistent with the identity of Sonic.

Through all its ups and downs and all around, the Sonic series is first and foremost, centered around optimism. Even in the darkest of times, looking for the best of outcomes and faith in the solutions.

06 is arguably even more dour than Shadow the Hedgehog. While its ending is, at best, bittersweet in nature, it never really speaks to any high end optimism,  and the happiest people got out of it, was in a meta sense that 06 wiped itself out.

Frontiers on the other hand, tows the line relatively well. Things do appear to be grim here and there, but the characters are not halted by it. They contend with it in their own ways, and press forward.

Frontiers isn't needlessly uber dark or hypocritical in its nature, thankfully unlike Last of Us 2, but one that challenges the character in weight of tone, while stilling keeping Sonic, Sonic.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, glad I'm not the only one who sees the double standard in a guy who likes Undertale despite it having two extremely clashing tones calling out Sonic Frontiers for it's tone.

I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me Sonic shouldn't do serious tones just because he's a cartoon animal. It's arguable whether Frontiers was even that intense about it, but I could find something much more grim in the likes of Dreamworks Kung Fu Panda 2 and Disney's Fox in the Hound or Oliver and Company than I can Froniters. Can't really add anything more that hasn't been said, but just...really?

Ok, boomer.

Really telling, cuz I actually enjoyed his review of Frontiers. But I do not see eye to eye with him on this subject. And for someone with his wealth of knowledge of media, I'd almost say he's doing this on purpose.

[MetalSkulkBane]

19 hours ago, jungle_penguins said:

I haven't watched this guy in years, like he makes some fun points but is way too cynical (is most of it is an act?).

To quote man himself "Oh you know I’m just being facetious. At least I hope you do, otherwise these last fifteen years will have seemed like a bit of a roller coaster."

He intentionally exaggerates his opinions for entertainment value, although I'm fairly certain they always reflect his real thoughts. I find his reviews to be very insightful, even if I take them with a grain of salt.

(And while I'm obviously biased, I highly disagree with his attitude toward Sonic. He's mean to Pokemon or Call of Duty or other triple AAA because someone has to. Someone has to deflate the hype and talk about actual negatives that fans tend to overlook. But his opinions on Sonic often feel like repeating old memes "bah, Sonic never good in 3D" stuff.  But you know, you can disagree with someone and still find them entertaining or interesting to listen to.)

[Wraith]

21 hours ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

I don't really think that's the point God of War is trying to make, though. It's not about teaching Atreus that violence is bad, never do it. Kratos is trying to give him the skills to survive and protect himself from the numerous dangers out in the wild, but also that violence shouldn't be the immediate first answer to every problem they face, and that it should be done in necessity for survival, nothing more. Atreus working up a bloodlust for the gods isn't because of Kratos wanting him to go down a path of non-violence, it's because Kratos only wanted to teach him the skills required to survive in a world filled with throwaway monsters, and undead ice creatures rising up from the grave, and Atreus took the worst lessons from that to heart, especially when he develops the god complex, and thinks he's free to slaughter anyone for fun. In the scenarios you mention, those are situations where the enemies are typically mindless, and are out only for blood. It's either kill or be killed.

In the situations where they're facing actual living people, those are the scenarios where Kratos is usually attempting to teach Atreus reason, and where the bloodlust situation comes up the most, with Atreus going power mad upon discovering he's a god himself, and therefore believing himself above it all, and it's also worth mentioning that Kratos' own development hinges upon realising Atreus is becoming a reflection of himself. He starts the game off silently angry at the world around him, in the middle of grief for Faye's death, with very little patience for anyone that irritates him, and further violence for anyone who poses a threat to him.

It's only later in the game, when he starts seeing Atreus picking up his worse traits, particularly when he shouts at Sidri and gives him the 'little people's little problems' rant that Kratos realises his own behaviour to others around him, and the effect it's had on Atreus. Kratos goes from a few warnings at Baldur to the start to a immediate life-threatening fight, and shunning Freya upon discovering she's a god, to warning and even sparing Baldur repeatedly, and doing all he can to save Freya's life because he deems her a friend. It's as much of a learning experience to Kratos as it is Atreus, and it's from seeing Atreus become a reflection of himself, even though he's trying to change that makes him realise that he's still falling into the same pit-traps. He only starts to seriously change his attitude, as well as be more open about himself to both Atreus and himself and try to be a better person when he sees what he's doing to Atreus.

And Ragnarok further reinforces it. Without going into major spoilers, a big part of the plot is the idea of going immediately to war with Asgard and Odin, and Kratos making it clear that if it becomes a absolute necessity, then nothing can be helped, but if it's avoidable, if there's another course of action, then he will seek it first. It's not about war and violence being as wrong as possible, it's that there's other solutions, other means of solving problems that can be found, and violence should only be used as a means of survival and necessity, rather than used to gain pleasure in meaningless slaughter, as Kratos' rampages in the past had been used for. 

I'd argue The Last of Us Part 2 is far more accurate example than God of War in that regard. The whole game's plot is all about cycles of violence and revenge, and how bloodlust only creates more bloodlust for others, and how it only damages and hurts everyone around them. How these 'nameless mooks' are actual survivors and people as well, yet the game still expects you to mow them down en mass via engaging stealth combat that rewards you for actively engaging in it most of the time.

Not to mention the fact that by the time you reach Abby's campaign, they might as well throw that out altogether because your main villains become a cartoonishly evil cult, as well as sadistic raiders that the game has absolutely no sympathy for, and portrays both as irredeemably terrible in all regards, so it's more than fine to mow through them as her. If anything, I'd argue that's a lot more counter-intuitive to the plot and messages they're trying to achieve than anything that God of War (either of the two) attempts.

You all are missing the point. God of War creating so many enemies and scenarios that are "free real estate" for Kratos to go ham and slaughter everything in the room are part of why the games feel non-committal. The Last of Us Part II struggles to stick the landing because it's actually more committed to it's tone and themes than God of War is, and tried to take the path of every act of violence having consequences even if it feels gratifying from Ellie's(and the player's) pov.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Far be it from me to point out all the things wrong with Last of Us Part 2 and its hypocritical plot, given how that's not really on topic for this thread.

15 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Well, glad I'm not the only one who sees the double standard in a guy who likes Undertale despite it having two extremely clashing tones calling out Sonic Frontiers for it's tone.

I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me Sonic shouldn't do serious tones just because he's a cartoon animal. It's arguable whether Frontiers was even that intense about it, but I could find something much more grim in the likes of Dreamworks Kung Fu Panda 2 and Disney's Fox in the Hound or Oliver and Company than I can Froniters. Can't really add anything more that hasn't been said, but just...really?

Ok, boomer.

Really telling, cuz I actually enjoyed his review of Frontiers. But I do not see eye to eye with him on this subject. And for someone with his wealth of knowledge of media, I'd almost say he's doing this on purpose.

I'm not really surprised by the double standards in Yahtzee's viewpoints.

The problem with his rationale regarding Frontiers really does come down to how, it flat out contradicts his sentiment towards another game with cartoony aesthetics, also tackling heavy tone and whatnot.

It doesn't help that facetious or not, boy does he come off as condescending. 

[JezMM]

While I feel like the "stop trying to be Death Stranding, you're a cartoon hedgehog" argument is dumb (I doubt anyone would criticise Pixar's best films for dabbling with serious themes because they have stylised characters), I can appreciate the "why is the first game about Sonic having freedom to go anywhere so dreary and sad" one.

I wonder if, in a perfect world with infinite budget, they could have gotten away with having a couple of islands on the way to Starfall that were more typical Sonic mood, and it's only after a turning point in the story that the development team begin to indulge in the atmosphere concepts they wanted to explore.  But that would probably have resulted in people just being annoyed that the tone of the game changes if they wanted fun giant adventure playground vibes the entire way through.

I think if they can wrap up Frontiers' story threads in the DLC, I'd be game for the next title lightening the mood, but I admit I got the impression that with Knuckles, Tails and Amy all off on their travels, that might be a reason to rotate the cast and have Sonic hang out with another smaller batch of characters next game.  With the "friendly" friends of Amy, Knuckles, Tails and Big having their share of screentime this game, Shadow, Rouge, Silver and Blaze feel like the obvious popular candidates to show up next, and they're all characters that would gel much better with another serious story than a game with an upbeat tone.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Far be it from me to point out all the things wrong with Last of Us Part 2 and its hypocritical plot, given how that's not really on topic for this thread.

Well God of War was also used as an example in the video, so its still on topic; I just focused on the Sonic part because I knew that's what was gonna get people engaged, but God of War ( or related games) are just as valid for this discussion. And honestly, we don't have to keep the topic squarely centered on Sonic.

 

 

13 minutes ago, JezMM said:

While I feel like the "stop trying to be Death Stranding, you're a cartoon hedgehog" argument is dumb (I doubt anyone would criticise Pixar's best films for dabbling with serious themes because they have stylised characters), I can appreciate the "why is the first game about Sonic having freedom to go anywhere so dreary and sad" one.

I wonder if, in a perfect world with infinite budget, they could have gotten away with having a couple of islands on the way to Starfall that were more typical Sonic mood, and it's only after a turning point in the story that the development team begin to indulge in the atmosphere concepts they wanted to explore.  But that would probably have resulted in people just being annoyed that the tone of the game changes if they wanted fun giant adventure playground vibes the entire way through.

I think if they can wrap up Frontiers' story threads in the DLC, I'd be game for the next title lightening the mood, but I admit I got the impression that with Knuckles, Tails and Amy all off on their travels, that might be a reason to rotate the cast and have Sonic hang out with another smaller batch of characters next game.  With the "friendly" friends of Amy, Knuckles, Tails and Big having their share of screentime this game, Shadow, Rouge, Silver and Blaze feel like the obvious popular candidates to show up next, and they're all characters that would gel much better with another serious story than a game with an upbeat tone.

 

Its one of those cases where what's tonally appropriate for one crowd isn't necessarily tonally appropriate for another. I think Pixar movies don't get much flak because while they do tackle heavy subjects, they never go too far and forget they're still mostly children's movies. Toy Story never really forgets that its a story about toys, but it's not afraid to tackle heavier subjects despite that. 

I feel like the problem people tend to have with Sonic is that the games often forget that these are cartoon characters at the end of the day, and they're being thrown into environments that make them look out of place. Shadow using guns was never a problem, but Shadow using realistic looking firearms in drab environments while swearing up a storm most definitely is. It feels like there's no self-awareness about how ridiculous the concept is while Pixar movie are very much aware of how ridiculous their concepts are and use that to tell their stories. 

 

 

So yea, its a balancing case; Sonic should be able to tackle heavy subjects, but it usually never does so in a way that's appropriate for the series. Hence the issues about tone. 

[Scar]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:18 AM, Diogenes said:

He's right, but he's not really saying anything that hasn't already been said.

I would say Mario has always been designed to appeal to kids, but it does so in a way that appeals to the kid inside adults, as well. It's not infantile or condescending, it's a light, charming fantasy world. As long as you're not completely dead inside, it's easy to see the appeal of slipping back into that kind of world for a good few hours even as an adult who's gained an appreciation for deeper stories and more grounded settings.

I agree with this pretty much.

Mario appeals to the inner child of everyone. It clutches at the inner nostalgia many of us late-20s - early 40s millenials and pays us off with phenomenally charming environments and level design and gameplay.

Sonic isn't that though, and I don't think the franchise should try and imitate something its never been. And that is where I think I sort of disagree with Yahtzee. Sonic has always branded itself as a sort of edgelord franchise. Something that broke free from the whimsy of Mario with something a bit...well...edgier. You can see that in full flight with Sonic 3 and Knuckles; the best game in the franchise's history. Its not overt about it, but its telling a pretty "serious" story of a mad scientist taking control of an island, building a giant doomsday fucking death star rip-off. Not to mention the final zone is literally called "Doomsday Zone".

You see the Sonic franchise appeals to the inner edgelord. It appeals to the types of kids who are in that phase of childhood/adolescence where they want to be a grown up. Where they don't want to be treated as a kid any more and they want their serious business. But the franchise kind of takes some of that more "mature" stuff and wraps it in a nice safe bubble for kids to enjoy without having to really introspect about it. And whilst I can say stuff like Shadow and Sonic 06 was juvenile nonsensical bullshit, I can't say that SA1 or SA2 are entirely wrong for taking the story approaches they did. They are terribly written, scripted, directed and acted, but nostalgia lends them a charm that takes you back to the age where you wished nothing but to be treated as a grown up (no matter how much of a mistake growing up actually is lol).

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to appeal to that type of child/young teen. Its different. Different people will hold nostalgia for that time in their lives in different ways. Sure its extremely cringe, but its not invalid.

I think the issue that Sonic has is trying to go for those mature themes with ridiculous execution. Frontiers I think nails the character dialogue and whatnot, but the setting is just too drab and bleak - this can work if handled well sometimes, but its not great for a whole Sonic game. If we take the ye olde classic comparison; Pixar, they deal with a lot of really powerful emotional stories. Toy Story 3 is enough to make a grown man bawl. But it contains all that thematic and narrative depth, whilst also packaging it in a way that is fun for the target audience. Behind all the fantastical colours and beautiful visuals and whimsicalness that appeals to young kids, there is enough meat to the bones of that story for the parents of those kids to sit and feel like they've been satisfied as well.

The Sonic franchise shouldn't necessarily turn itself away from being that slightly edgelord franchise. That is what made it unique and is what sold the brand for 30 years. But they need to leverage the good writers they have like Ian Flynn, and also package it into something that makes sense for a cartoon blue hedgehog, but also leave enough substance for young teens to take something out of it, and of course for parents to take something out of as well.

The visual and musical design can go along way to sell something like that. Frontier's soundtrack is godly I'll be real, but the visuals are too drab. If they made things a little softer, rounder saturated and vibrant it would fit a lot better. Unleashed's art-style was perfect for that. If only it were written by Flynn. Jungle Joyride Day captures the whole ancient civilsation/ruins motif, but does so in a way that feels much more natural to the Sonic franchise, and is probably what I imagine the Sonic 3 and Knuckles aesthetic would look like in 3D. 

Anyway, that was a bit of a ramble.

 

[Kuzu]

41 minutes ago, Scar said:

You see the Sonic franchise appeals to the inner edgelord. It appeals to the types of kids who are in that phase of childhood/adolescence where they want to be a grown up. Where they don't want to be treated as a kid any more and they want their serious business. But the franchise kind of takes some of that more "mature" stuff and wraps it in a nice safe bubble for kids to enjoy without having to really introspect about it. And whilst I can say stuff like Shadow and Sonic 06 was juvenile nonsensical bullshit, I can't say that SA1 or SA2 are entirely wrong for taking the story approaches they did. They are terribly written, scripted, directed and acted, but nostalgia lends them a charm that takes you back to the age where you wished nothing but to be treated as a grown up (no matter how much of a mistake growing up actually is lol).

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to appeal to that type of child/young teen. Its different. Different people will hold nostalgia for that time in their lives in different ways. Sure its extremely cringe, but its not invalid.

So what you're saying is that Sonic is a "Chuuni" franchise huh.

 

That...makes more sense than it has any right to....

[JezMM]

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Its one of those cases where what's tonally appropriate for one crowd isn't necessarily tonally appropriate for another. I think Pixar movies don't get much flak because while they do tackle heavy subjects, they never go too far and forget they're still mostly children's movies. Toy Story never really forgets that its a story about toys, but it's not afraid to tackle heavier subjects despite that. 

I feel like the problem people tend to have with Sonic is that the games often forget that these are cartoon characters at the end of the day, and they're being thrown into environments that make them look out of place. Shadow using guns was never a problem, but Shadow using realistic looking firearms in drab environments while swearing up a storm most definitely is. It feels like there's no self-awareness about how ridiculous the concept is while Pixar movie are very much aware of how ridiculous their concepts are and use that to tell their stories. 

So yea, its a balancing case; Sonic should be able to tackle heavy subjects, but it usually never does so in a way that's appropriate for the series. Hence the issues about tone. 

I do agree, and this level of nuance being missing from opinions like Yahtzee's here is what annoys me more than anything.  They tend to go for the "Sonic shouldn't even try" angle as oppose to "Sonic needs to look at how successful all-ages media has managed this and be more like that".

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I do agree, and this level of nuance being missing from opinions like Yahtzee's here is what annoys me more than anything.  They tend to go for the "Sonic shouldn't even try" angle as oppose to "Sonic needs to look at how successful all-ages media has managed this and be more like that".

I mean, that is essentially what he did by comparing it to Mario. But that misses the fact that Sonic wasn't meant to be like Mario or other "kid-friendly" franchises to begin with. 

For better or worse, Sonic being "edgy" is kind of the point as @Scarpointed out. All of that dumb Anime bullshit is baked into its blood. Its not too dissimilar to Kingdom Hearts, which similarly gets a level of scorn from people outside the target demographic due to how people find the entire concept ridiculous. 

As I just said, Sonic is a Chuuni as fuck franchise; for those not in the Anime circle, it basically means wanting to be "adult" but still ultimately being a child. So Sonic and Kingdom Hearts usually have to be "edgier" than the norm, but not so edgy that they forget that they're still franchises for children. 

Which is incredibly difficult to do and still be taken seriously by people outside the target demographic. Yahtzee is an adult, so of course he would find the concept of a children's franchise trying to act "grown up" inherently ridiculous. Its the same type of attitude most adults have when they see their children start acting out in their adolescent phase. 

Its probably also why so many Sonic fans who grow out of the series tend to look at it with scorn or embarrassment, because now their adult mindset has to look back at how ridiculous the concept actually is and how seriously they took it as adolescents themselves.  Some take it for what it is, while others just vehemently reject it. 

Sonic is the embodiment of those awkward teenaged years that nobody ever wants to remember basically. So of course adults hate it with a passion...

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Eh, I can't really agree with that opinion that it never really works for Sonic. Granted, it stems from the idea that Sonic can't fit with these properties, or that supposedly Sonic is some special example, when honestly, a lot of people default to that ideal with anything deemed as too cartoonish to begin with.

Which tends to lead to such a logical fallacy.

6 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well God of War was also used as an example in the video, so its still on topic; I just focused on the Sonic part because I knew that's what was gonna get people engaged, but God of War ( or related games) are just as valid for this discussion. And honestly, we don't have to keep the topic squarely centered on Sonic.

Given that this was posted in the "Sonic Games" section instead of the probably better fitting "Video Games" section, and focused first and foremost on Sonic, I was under the impression that breaking from such might earn the ire of the mods.

[Kuzu]

Its not that Sonic can't do it, it that Sonic sucks at it most of the time. 

[Indigo Rush]

It's also important to make a distinction between the general stigma against cartoons as a viable medium for serious story-telling and Sonic's track record in particular. I don't think animal characters can't tell stories seriously, nor that Sonic in specific can't either, but in practice they haven't always done it well. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its not that Sonic can't do it, it that Sonic sucks at it most of the time. 

Debatable, but given the idea that Yahtzee seems to be exuding is that based off of those previous ones, Frontiers doesn't work either, which is where the problematic thinking comes to play.

21 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

It's also important to make a distinction between the general stigma against cartoons as a viable medium for serious story-telling and Sonic's track record in particular. I don't think animal characters can't tell stories seriously, nor that Sonic in specific can't either, but in practice they haven't always done it well. 

If it's based off that, then that's probably part of a good reason why a lot of folk aren't taking Yahtzee's take seriously. It should be taken by much more of a case to case basis instead of his odd claim of Frontiers not working tonally.

Granted, this essentially is all a  we're discussing at best, on his take as well, so for all we know that's even his line of thought.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Debatable, but given the idea that Yahtzee seems to be exuding is that based off of those previous ones, Frontiers doesn't work either, which is where the problematic thinking comes to play.

Because more often than not, Sonic doesn't do it well. And even when it does, its debatable if it even succeeds. 

In this thread alone, we have people debating if Frontiers' tone was appropriate or not, so despite the game's success, its still pretty split in terms of opinion on what people felt was tonally appropriate or not. 

It should be judged on a case by case basis, but the most notorious Sonic games are the ones that people generally agree are tonally inappropriate. Its not exactly fair I admit, but Wraith mentioned that earlier in the thread; Sonic games aren't aimed at adults, so of course their specific appeal will be lost on ones like Yahtzee, who isn't a fan like you or me. Its why these types of games tend to fade from public interest over time; people just grow out of it.

It is a double standard given that issues we spoke about with games like God of War and the Last of Us, but all it really says that people are lenient towards those games because they want their video game fix. 

 

I see it like this; an """"adult"""" game that falters a bit at being an adult game isn't gonna be as routinely mocked as a "children's game" would be trying to act adult. One comes off as just making an honest mistake, while the other is looked as trying to be something it isn't. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

In this thread alone, we have people debating if Frontiers' tone was appropriate or not, so despite the game's success, its still pretty split in terms of opinion on what people felt was tonally appropriate or not. 

Eh, we haven't really had a mass majority of even the denizens of this forum to really suggest it's as split as you think. I mean, by that logic, anything that has differing opinions on either end is automatically split. Now, if this thread got like, all the major players and had a massive sect of discussion in it, I'd see more where you're coming from.

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It should be judged on a case by case basis, but the most notorious Sonic games are the ones that people generally agree are tonally inappropriate. Its not exactly fair I admit, but Wraith mentioned that earlier in the thread; Sonic games aren't aimed at adults, so of course their specific appeal will be lost on ones like Yahtzee, who isn't a fan like you or me. Its why these types of games tend to fade from public interest over time; people just grow out of it.

Eh, like others have pointed out, non-fan or not, Yahtzee is not someone I take at face value, period. And honestly, nothing ever appeals to everyone. So of course, there's going to be some who don't agree with it. This isn't some unknown phenomenon that's exclusive to Sonic or anything.

And funnily enough, Frontiers actually gained the appeal of tons adults. It's even garnered a lot of people new to the franchise, so it's not even like the appeal was lost en masse or that majorly that it's supposedly a big issue with Frontiers.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Frontiers is perfect, but it definitely earned its positive reception, even in terms of the narrative for a good reason, and that's not something to scoff at.

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It is a double standard given that issues we spoke about with games like God of War and the Last of Us, but all it really says that people are lenient towards those games because they want their video game fix.

I think this speaks heavy volumes of some of the issues in the gaming community. Albeit, the Gaming Industry certainly doesn't help things either, with it lauding certain projects under the per-conceived notion of what's apparently "art".

[Kuzu]

I'm not really interested in debating about how well received Frontiers is or wasn't for the umpteenth time with you. The mere fact that people disagree with how the game used its tone is enough to say that, no its not as clear cut as some of you would like for it to be. 

But yes, you can't please everyone but the very nature of Sonic means its going to be a much more polarizing series than say Mario, which manages to accomplish the same thing without any caveats attached to it. So while some might not agree with it, I can't exactly blame people for thinking Sonic should be taking cues from Mario when one is generally viewed more favorably than the other. 

[KHCast]

On 12/15/2022 at 7:20 PM, Kuzu said:

But yea, games like the Last of Us that get praise for their narratives about non-violence...while having violence as a gameplay element do stick out way more in that regard. 

Don’t forget the pre order and special edition bonuses for those games (things meant to sell you on the game) that make the violence all the more fun sounding.

[Danj86]

As much as I enjoy Yahtee's content, I'm not so sure about his opinion on this either. Though I also don't know what the hell Sonic's tone should be. I recently watched a video of cut-scenes from Sonic Colours and while the tone in that game is lighter, the dialogue is fucking obnoxious and the story is non-existent.

It's also a little strange to hear him use a Nintendo IP as a positive example since he seems to be the most brutal when reviewing a Nintendo franchise. Even then, Mario more often than not puts gameplay ahead of story. Sometimes getting more complex stories in only the spin offs. So...is that comparison even fair?

It's a shame he has opted to not review Kirby and the Forgotten Land. Because Kirby has been messing with tone in game for 30 years. Starting off with cuteness and happy-go-go time, then eventually fighting an Eldritch Abomination with the powers of God to save the universe.

Also, having characters stick to one lane, just because they were designed a certain way is awfully narrow minded and boring. Conker's Bad Fur Day wouldn't exist for a start. The Legend of Zelda changes it's own visual design to fit the tone that it sets too.