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Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation discusses tonal dissonance in video games...using Sonic Frontiers.


Kuzu

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12 minutes ago, DanJ86 said:

As much as I enjoy Yahtee's content, I'm not so sure about his opinion on this either. Though I also don't know what the hell Sonic's tone should be. I recently watched a video of cut-scenes from Sonic Colours and while the tone in that game is lighter, the dialogue is fucking obnoxious and the story is non-existent.

It's also a little strange to hear him use a Nintendo IP as a positive example since he seems to be the most brutal when reviewing a Nintendo franchise. Even then, Mario more often than not puts gameplay ahead of story. Sometimes getting more complex stories in only the spin offs. So...is that comparison even fair?

It's a shame he has opted to not review Kirby and the Forgotten Land. Because Kirby has been messing with tone in game for 30 years. Starting off with cuteness and happy-go-go time, then eventually fighting an Eldritch Abomination with the powers of God to save the universe.

Also, having characters stick to one lane, just because they were designed a certain way is awfully narrow minded and boring. Conker's Bad Fur Day wouldn't exist for a start. The Legend of Zelda changes it's own visual design to fit the tone that it sets too.

 

That's kind of why I take issue with Yahtzee's stance. It's one of those takes that feels less like its judging something because of its merits or lack thereof, and more because it tried to be something at all. That's not just unfair, it's just a plain boring way to look at media.

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This is pretty much why I don't find Yahtzee's take to really be good or even well structured.

You want to point out flaws in Frontiers' narrative and how it could've perhaps nalancedythings better? That's perfectly fine. But scoffing at a Sonic narrative for simply trying to be serious off the principle that Sonic can't try it, is, as others have pointed out, silly and needlessly narrow-minded.

The line between what's just part of his "facetious" act and what we're supposed to take serious is awfully blurred.

3 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

That's kind of why I take issue with Yahtzee's stance. It's one of those takes that feels less like its judging something because of its merits or lack thereof, and more because it tried to be something at all. That's not just unfair, it's just a plain boring way to look at media.

It's like I've said before. One of the Sonic series' keen qualities, is it's ability to have something of a range in tones. Evidently, not everyone's going to dig that, but it's definitely worth keeping around, as it helps keep things from getting monotonous and even can help the series really crank things up when it needs to.

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4 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

It's one of those takes that feels less like its judging something because of its merits or lack thereof, and more because it tried to be something at all.

I think it's more that it's been aiming to be the wrong thing, and missing the opportunity to be something better for it.

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Sonic Adventure 2 is same problem different execution of problem. Game seems more fitting than Frontiers, in the sense Sonic in not-San Francisco meshes better aesthetically than Sonic in the opening cutscene in Frontiers (no seriously, do the cutscenes look better after that, that's really off putting). But otherwise should Sonic be doing that (the plot and tone of Sonic Adventure 2)? If it fits it's fits, but is it really fitting?

Improving Sonic Lost World should've been the future honestly. Though I would be okay with another Shadow the Hedgehog tonally

 

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On 12/17/2022 at 10:23 PM, Kuzu said:

So what you're saying is that Sonic is a "Chuuni" franchise huh.

That...makes more sense than it has any right to....

Pretty much yes.

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Did yahtzee forget about SA/2? Would he say they were too try hard storywise? 

I agree the art direction of Frontiers is bad . But storywise the tone is fine. Even if the story and pacing itself is quite boring. Sonic has been somber before. Frontiers story execution is the problem. My issues with the story might be less if the art direction was better.

With GoW. I havent played it, but if the companion is a disembodied head or whatever, i guess he doesnt have much shits to give lol.

I do feel a lot of dissonance in uncharted tho. For the reasons given in the video. 

But out of the 3 examples he uses, Sonic Frontiers was the least dissonant.

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On 12/18/2022 at 1:27 PM, Diogenes said:

I think it's more that it's been aiming to be the wrong thing, and missing the opportunity to be something better for it.

What is "the wrong thing"?

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The thing I don't like obviously.

Boy does that check out with a lot of the personnel here and there. lol

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Gamers are a strange beast.

They say "Sonic games shouldn't have deep or serious stories because the games are about talking animals in colorful environments, this a kid's game", but fly off the handle if you call Mario or Pokemon kid's games from those same metrics.

Edited by Slash
Wanted to add some quotation for emphasis.
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1 hour ago, Slash said:

Gamers are a strange beast.

They say Sonic games shouldn't have deeper because the games are about talking animals  in colorful environments, this a kid's game, but fly off the handle if you call Mario or Pokemon kid's games from those same metrics.

I feel like there's some bias going on here in regards to Sonic.

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1 hour ago, Slash said:

Gamers are a strange beast.

They say Sonic games shouldn't have deeper because the games are about talking animals  in colorful environments, this a kid's game, but fly off the handle if you call Mario or Pokemon kid's games from those same metrics.

 

10 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I feel like there's some bias going on here in regards to Sonic.

People like to rip on Sonic for shits and giggles. I guarantee they're aware of the double standard with Pokemon (it practically does the same shit as Sonic), but don't want you to point it out becasue "Pokemon is a good game."

Yeah, I overgeneralized a lot there, but this is less "Sonic games shouldn't have deeper stories because they're talking animals in colorful environments" than it is drama stirring because it's fun to do for the lulz. If it aggrivated you, well...that was the point.

Try using old Disney films that go into even more serious territory and see how well they jump the hoops over that.

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Pokemon games don't really emphasize their stories in the way Sonic games tend to.

 

And when they do, fans tend to hate it at least. Critics don't really care cuz its Pokemon.

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

People like to rip on Sonic for shits and giggles. I guarantee they're aware of the double standard with Pokemon (it practically does the same shit as Sonic), but don't want you to point it out becasue "Pokemon is a good game."

Yeah, I overgeneralized a lot there, but this is less "Sonic games shouldn't have deeper stories because they're talking animals in colorful environments" than it is drama stirring because it's fun to do for the lulz. If it aggrivated you, well...that was the point.

Try using old Disney films that go into even more serious territory and see how well they jump the hoops over that.

People just use the "good quality" card when the question's clearly about surface level appearance.

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39 minutes ago, Slash said:

People just use the "good quality" card when the question's clearly about surface level appearance.

Which only goes to show how dishonest the “Sonic shouldn’t do serious because colorful animals” argument is.

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

Sonic needs at least of decade of consistently good games with stories before critics ease up on that.

I mean, there were already critics who spoke positively of Frontiers' narrative, so not everyone is set on the foolish that Sonic can't have a serious story.

It's really a matter of correlation at this point.

And honestly what critics think isn't the gospel. They're just as human as any other player..

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4 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I mean, there were already critics who spoke positively of Frontiers' narrative, so not everyone is set on the foolish that Sonic can't have a serious story.

It's really a matter of correlation at this point.

And honestly what critics think isn't the gospel. They're just as human as any other player..

I agree, especially since now we have the general audience weighing in their thoughts and critics are not the only people to listen to these days.

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On 12/20/2022 at 11:50 PM, Kuzu said:

The thing I don't like obviously.

I expect so, but it would be flippant of me to disregard any actual thoughtful opinion.

Making Sonic a silent protag with a cutesy whimsical "plot" in a vain similar to Mario would probably better received critically. But its too easy and boring.

To be clear, story is secondary to gameplay, so I'd rather they sort that shit out first.

However if we're talking strictly about stories, I just think its a big cop-out to have Sonic just be another Mario. Its lazy and basically antithetical to what Sonic was created for in the first place. To be that slightly edgier, "cooler" ...er...Chunibyo(?) character that kids can get their fix of slightly more serious stories, but still in a PG-13 form factor.

Has it been done badly? Yes. But does that mean you should just give up and not try at all? Nope. It can work if its done correctly. There is great deal of latitude between writing stories like Mario and fucking...I dunno Shadow. There is so much space to have a story that touches upon slightly more grown up themes in an intelligent way so that adults can feel entertained, whilst also being fun and cool and just the right about of Edgy for kids to enjoy.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Scar said:

However if we're talking strictly about stories, I just think its a big cop-out to have Sonic just be another Mario. Its lazy and basically antithetical to what Sonic was created for in the first place. To be that slightly edgier, "cooler" ...er...Chunibyo(?) character that kids can get their fix of slightly more serious stories, but still in a PG-13 form factor.

Has it been done badly? Yes. But does that mean you should just give up and not try at all? Nope. It can work if its done correctly. There is great deal of latitude between writing stories like Mario and fucking...I dunno Shadow. There is so much space to have a story that touches upon slightly more grown up themes in an intelligent way so that adults can feel entertained, whilst also being fun and cool and just the right about of Edgy for kids to enjoy.



I don't think the complaint has a ton of validity with the way Yahtzee phrased it, but I like to trace where that feeling of disconnect comes from. As it stands, Frontiers's world is a strong display of fidelity and technique, but it quite literally does not have any sense of style, whatsoever, outside of Sonic and some of the choices they made with the enemy animation. It is literally just sticking Sonic in a real forest. Even your favorite edgy platformers of the PS2 era try for some sort of cohesive look. Some lighting tricks or unique choices with geography or architecture to call it's own. To not do that is genuinely a strange choice that's worth scrutinizing, and it's not like it's the first Sonic game to do it either.

The same thing goes for the tone of the story, imo. I'd be lying if I said any of it's attempts to actually be deep or emotional landed with me, and I think that's worth scrutinizing more than the backwards way people sometimes articulate that problem.



 

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22 hours ago, Wraith said:



I don't think the complaint has a ton of validity with the way Yahtzee phrased it, but I like to trace where that feeling of disconnect comes from. As it stands, Frontiers's world is a strong display of fidelity and technique, but it quite literally does not have any sense of style, whatsoever, outside of Sonic and some of the choices they made with the enemy animation. It is literally just sticking Sonic in a real forest. Even your favorite edgy platformers of the PS2 era try for some sort of cohesive look. Some lighting tricks or unique choices with geography or architecture to call it's own. To not do that is genuinely a strange choice that's worth scrutinizing, and it's not like it's the first Sonic game to do it either.

The same thing goes for the tone of the story, imo. I'd be lying if I said any of it's attempts to actually be deep or emotional landed with me, and I think that's worth scrutinizing more than the backwards way people sometimes articulate that problem.



 

I touched upon it in my first comment.

Frontiers greatest failure ironically is the artwork. I don't mind the way the Starfall Islands look, but since they were first debuted they never looked like they fit with Sonic. They're more evocative of Sonic 06, which as well all know is tonally a complete mess.

The same melancholy atmosphere can absolutely be captured with an art-style which is more fitting with Sonic and Co's character designs. And simply having a visual design that meshes better with the characters, will be able to sell melancholic or sombre tones WAYYYY more effectively than if its just Blue Hedgehog placed in an Elder Scrolls map.

It can work, but again Sonic Team need to try and do it properly.

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For the record I stopped watching Yahtzee when he did his Sonic Unleashed review.

Not because I disagreed with it, I was just over his takes by that point. It just HAPPENED to align with the review where he slammed Sonic Unleashed.

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