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Should Sage become a permanent mainstay?


Johnny Boy

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Sage brings so much new and great things to the cast. She's an interesting foil for Sonic and Tails in their respective ways, and an amazing outlet for development in Eggman. but it goes even deeper than that, as she's a sublime character in her own right who also expands on the mythos in a nice way.

Honestly, a new associate for Eggman who's on something of the level, like Metal Sonic, is a welcome addition.

Sage is a fascinating new angle with a ton of potential to go further, so yes, bring her back.

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24 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Oops. I somehow made a reply with nothing in it. Tried to delete it, but it won't. But anyway. I dont think I lack creativity. I just think Sage is  redundant.  Eggman is more than capable in everything he does and never needed a daughter for any of it. Plus the lack of foreshadowing is jarring to say the least.

Eggman needed Sage to have any pull on the Ancients technology and created her to do just that. With her, she was able at least manipulate Titans capable of holding off against Super Sonic without Eggman needing to be in the same dimension.

It's not just about what a character is capable of, it's about what they can actually contribute. And Sage showed she can contribute quite a lot to Eggman to serve as an addition to one of his mainstay creations as much as characters like Metal Sonic has done before her, to the extent that he went far enough to bring her back after dealing with the true enemy of the game.

24 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

The fact that Sage longs for family yet has no issue with potentially destroying other familues is disturbing but the narrative wants us to like Sage, though not in the same way we like Eggman so I just think it is bad writing. Also how awe inspiringly convenient that the games usage of color to indicate positive growth in a character actually meant nothing.

She doesn't long for family...she actually has one. It just so happens to be that said family are part of the antagonist faction.

And there's nothing disturbing about it--we know Sage is on the bad guy's side. She's just not as stubborn and prideful about working alongside the Heroes in order to accomplish a goal. Whether you like her or not, there's nothing really ambigous about who she's aligned with and what she will do as a character.

That's not bad writing, that's you not really paying attention to what the story is showing you with the character and claiming otherwise over about it.

Sage is loyal to Eggman--she helped save the world, but she still went through the lengths she did in order to protect Eggman. She can find what Sonic is doing interesting without changing any sides, and what she does from this point on is yet to even be seen for anyone to make any judgements over where she can go. But we do have a baseline for how the character acts and what she's willing to do.

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I was going to bring up the idea that eggman brought back a "version," of Sage. Ian says the same thing. While I dont like her, because she is  so simpering and non threatening, if she is altered in some way by her next appearance, I might not care as much.

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7 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Take a look at these two questions from a recent bumblekast, timestamp @ 28:48:

No he didn't lmfao, his answer was in no way shape or form taking that stance; stop leaving out the context

It was Kyle, I misremembered. Sorry. Still, he sarcastically asked "blue means good, right?" 

Ian himself still bluntly asked "Why?" at the thought of Sage turning good here.

 

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Quote

It's not just about what a character is capable of, it's about what they can actually contribute. And Sage showed she can contribute quite a lot to Eggman to serve as an addition to one of his mainstay creations as much as characters like Metal Sonic has done before her, to the extent that he went far enough to bring her back after dealing with the true enemy of the game.

So she is a mcguffin that any non sapient robot could have done what she did.

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23 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

The fact that Sage longs for family yet has no issue with potentially destroying other familues is disturbing but the narrative wants us to like Sage, though not in the same way we like Eggman so I just think it is bad writing.

There's nothing really suggesting that in the long run. We see Sage's actions and yes, they end up benefiting Sonic, but it was always about helping Eggman. What Sage conducted was a noble sacrifice to a point, but in that case, we'd probably be meant to be sad in the same way if Eggman pulled such a sacrifice.

There's no real divide in how we're supposed to like Sage and Eggman like you're suggesting, so the claim of bad writing doesn't really make sense.

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2 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

So she is a mcguffin that any non sapient robot could have done what she did.

She's a character with different functions, emotions, a background, and motivations that a non-sapient robot would, by definition, be incapable of doing or showing.

Your lack of creativity is really showing here.

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2 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

So she is a mcguffin that any non sapient robot could have done what she did.

Where exactly are you going with your arguments on all of this? Feels like the goalposts are getting shifted if that's the conclusion you're coming to after everything else.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

It was Kyle, I misremembered. Sorry. Still, he sarcastically asked "blue means good, right?" 

Ian himself still bluntly asked "Why?" at the thought of Sage turning good here.

And Ian didn't denounce his reasoning; he immediately jumped to "and then she blowed up" followed by "and then some form came back, under Eggman's guidance" yada yada

Half the conversations around SAGE on this forum are about details that largely denounce how people view SAGE as a character when Ian does not hold the same reasoning; if it was for the same reasons being argued here, he would have instead jumped to "She's only loyal to Eggman" or "She's clearly still evil", but he doesn't. Saying he believes the same by using his confusion over Kyle assuming she'd come back good is misrepresenting his argument flat out.

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8 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Where exactly are you going with your arguments on all of this? Feels like the goalposts are getting shifted if that's the conclusion you're coming to after everything else.

We clearly just staunchly disagree with each other. I dont like the sage character. You do like her.  I have given my reasons as to why and you disagree. And now people like crownslayer are having a good time casually insulting me over it.

 

Eggman created metal sonic as a physical force against Sonic. What did he need Sage for? Something he has always been able to do on his own. Be smart. He never needed a kid to tell him to team up with Sonic in the past.

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1 minute ago, Dejablue said:

We clearly just staunchly disagree with each other. I dont like sage character. You do like her.  I have given my reasons as to why and you disagree. And now people like crownslayer are having a good time casually insulting me over it.

Oh, I haven't insulted you. That's a line you don't want me crossing.

But I am calling out your inconsistencies, and you're doing a wonderful job of not helping your case.

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6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Oh, I haven't insulted you. That's a line you don't want me crossing.

But I am calling out your inconsistencies, and you're doing a wonderful job of not helping your case.

Bro im sorry I dont like the loli thing. But im not being inconsistent at all. 

Also wouldnt insulting people get you in trouble? Surely there are rules against that kind of thing. So yea dont cross the line for your sake.

Tell me how I am inconsistent.

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11 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Bro im sorry I dont like the loli thing. But im not being inconsistent at all. 

And I couldn't care less whether you like her or not. Sage isn't even my favorite character (I wouldn't even put her in my Top 25), but I do understand the character and her dimensions.

You're being inconsistent because you're literally not bother to actually do just that and would rather mock the character. Either way, there's a point to the character as it was shown to you. You can hate her as much as you want, but rather than troll about it, you could do yourself a favor and critique her accurately instead--plenty of people here have done just that over her relation to Eggman and the sense of confusion that brought.

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2 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Bro im sorry I dont like the loli thing. But im not being inconsistent at all. 

"Loli thing". Okay if you're resorting to terms like that, I don't really see strength in your arguments that have already been countered.

It's fine if you don't like Sage, but the reasoning feels flimsy. I can understand if you personally think she can't get a new arc, but in actuality, that doesn't make any sense, given how the door was left open for her to come back, and she was never written as a changed good guy by the end.

She still was first and foremost, loyal to Eggman, so it doesn't really take a stretch of imagination to realize how and why she could still be an adversary in the future.

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Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

"Loli thing". Okay if you're resorting to terms like that, I don't really see strength in your arguments that have already been countered.

It's fine if you don't like Sage, but the reasoning feels flimsy. I can understand if you personally think she can't get a new arc, but in actuality, that doesn't make any sense, given how the door was left open for her to come back, and she was never written as a changed good guy by the end.

She still was first and foremost, loyal to Eggman, so it doesn't really take a stretch of imagination to realize how and why she could still be an adversary in the future.

Me saying the word loli bothered you that badly? I doubt that. You were already going to disregard my opinion from the start.

The door was left open for her to come back to do what? Be Eggmans pawn? Sure I guess that is something to look forward to.  My point stands Eggman never needed Sage. What ever skills she has to offer Eggman already had them.

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25 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Your lack of creativity is really showing here.

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's fine if you don't like Sage, but the reasoning feels flimsy. I can understand if you personally think she can't get a new arc, but in actuality, that doesn't make any sense, given how the door was left open for her to come back, and she was never written as a changed good guy by the end.

The fact that you're both jumping on them for arguing a premise, that Ian has yet to disagree with and is taking himself:

1 hour ago, Dejablue said:

She can but will she? I doubt it. Outside of stay "evil" or turn good. It is dissonant to me that Sage will want to continue being a threat to Sonic. A tension like that has to break one way or the other.

There's a lot of irony to be had, both now and possibly more if the DLC releases with further agreement

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1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

The fact that you're both jumping on them for arguing a premise, that Ian has yet to disagree with and is taking himself:

Why do you assume my stance is based on what Ian said?

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1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Why do you assume my stance is based on what Ian said?

I didn't assume it was; if anything it would be in spite of what Ian has said

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22 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Me saying the word loli bothered you that badly? I doubt that. You were already going to disregard my opinion from the start.

The door was left open for her to come back to do what? Be Eggmans pawn? Sure I guess that is something to look forward to.  My point stands Eggman never needed Sage. What ever skills she has to offer Eggman already had them.

If Eggman had the skills to hi-jack the Ancient's Technology--something he flat out stated to be far more advanced than his, so by his own admission, no he did not--he wouldn't have created Sage in the first place. In fact, he wouldn't have needed to bother with dealing with the Ancient's Technology in the first place to set the entire plot of Frontiers in motion. And he would have been able to find a way out of Cyber Space on his own.

In other words, the narrative showed the exact opposite of your claim.

The door was left open for her to comeback and be Eggman's daughter working to help him accomplish his goals. If that makes her a pawn, sure we can go with that. One more useful creation for Eggman to have at his beck and call in his goals of world conquest and empire building.

19 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The fact that you're both jumping on them for arguing a premise, that Ian has yet to disagree with and is taking himself:

There's a lot of irony to be had, both now and possibly more if the DLC releases with further agreement

I never really agreed with the whole "Good or Evil" thing to begin with, just that Sage fought against, then later sided with Sonic to protect Eggman. I did acknowledge that Sage is loyal to Eggman (which I find doubtful not to believe given that she admitted in-story her primary goal was to keep Eggman safe), but that she's a lot more fluid than just good or evil.

Whether or not the premise of her being loyal to Eggman holds or not, that's not the premise I'm making here. The literal start of this debacle was the premise that "Sage's arc was done" to which I countered with the question "they couldn't just give her a new one"...which is essentially what they've done for plenty of other characters, because a character finishing their arc doesn't mean there's nothing more to the character.

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9 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

My point stands Eggman never needed Sage. What ever skills she has to offer Eggman already had them.

As an AI she's more suited to large-scale management of his systems than one human, no matter how intelligent, and she offers an even-tempered, rational voice in contrast to his ego and temper.

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1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

I didn't assume it was; if anything it would be in spite of what Ian has said

Not really, since nothing is contradicted in that regard. What I state is simply based on what happens in the game. Sage remained loyal first and foremost to Eggman. Did she question his judgement at times? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean she'd completely turn against him.

What I state isn't based on or in spite of what Ian said. It's based purely in the events of the game.

Though, if I may ask, what exactly do you think I was getting at? The idea that Sage could in no way be good or something?

10 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

The door was left open for her to come back to do what? Be Eggmans pawn? Sure I guess that is something to look forward to.  My point stands Eggman never needed Sage. What ever skills she has to offer Eggman already had them.

Given that she was literally created for the express purpose of hacking into the ruins, and what's more, she acted as the bridge between Sonic and Eggman while also getting Supreme to help Super Sonic out in the final fight....uh, no. She was integral to the plot. I don't understand where your logic sprouts from to suggest that Sage was pointless to the plot and never needed.

And plenty, myself included have already mentioned the potential of her coming back. "Eggman's pawn" would probably just be one aspect in the big picture.

Now, if it's a case of you not having faith in the writers of using her well in future stuff, that's another story. But the potential is there nonetheless.

19 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Me saying the word loli bothered you that badly? I doubt that.

I mean, given the reductive connotations behind the word "loli", I'd think the reasons why that's iffy would be obvious.

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21 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I never really agreed with the whole "Good or Evil" thing to begin with, just that Sage fought against, then later sided with Sonic to protect Eggman. I've acknowledge that Sage is loyal to Eggman (which I find doubtful not to believe given that she admitted in-story her primary goal was to keep Eggman safe), but that she's a lot more fluid than just good or evil.

Which is taking as noncommittal of a stance as possible. Which is fair to do so, but since the people who assigned SAGE's character with emotions and progressions of redemption past "valuing something" do commit to a less explicit perception, they're building it off of either perceived meaning in the same way as those arguing for "still evil" here, alongside the contextual moments that aren't mentioned by the opposing view. They took a more committed stance, by default of assigning meaning that is never explicitly stated, but for those people who put that meaning in SAGE's character (to the degree that she understood and had emotions for everyone involved and turned good by nature) the prospect of SAGE going evil again feels like a regression. You don't have the view, but those people who placed meaning there do.

The fact that she's being brought back in a way that doesn't discount that feels like it leans further in the direction and perception of the character that those people had, to the degree that the speculation looks downright foolish to look back on. Ultimately it's two differing parties with biases leaning in one way or the other, hoping that the writing will validate their take and their take alone, but when a stance will still inevitably be taken by the writer itself, it comes off as even more ridiculous at how much effort is being put into disproving how others view the character

12 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I do think it's unfair and weird to call a completely non-sexualized fully-clothed child "loli."

Loli does not inherently mean sexualization

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16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

As an AI she's more suited to large-scale management of his systems than one human, no matter how intelligent, and she offers an even-tempered, rational voice in contrast to his ego and temper.

Right, and it's not like that role is unprecedented.

SA-55, Orbot's predecessor from Unleashed, basically had the role of Eggman's adviser who pointed out flaws in his judgment. Eggman's self-aware enough to know building minions to offer second opinions and rein him in a little is a good idea.

Sage is a lot more... shall we say, constructive in her criticisms than proto-Orbot was, so I feel like Eggman will be more receptive to her advice.

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20 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Which is taking as noncommittal of a stance as possible. Which is fair to do so, but since the people who assigned SAGE's character with emotions and progressions of redemption past "valuing something" do commit to a less explicit perception, they're building it off of either perceived meaning in the same way as those arguing for "still evil" here, alongside the contextual moments that aren't mentioned by the opposing view. They took a more committed stance, by default of assigning meaning that is never explicitly stated, but for those people who put that meaning in SAGE's character (to the degree that she understood and had emotions for everyone involved and turned good by nature) the prospect of SAGE going evil again feels like a regression. You don't have the view, but those people who placed meaning there do.

The fact that she's being brought back in a way that doesn't discount that feels like it leans further in the direction and perception of the character that those people had, to the degree that the speculation looks downright foolish to look back on. Ultimately it's two differing parties with biases leaning in one way or the other, hoping that the writing will validated their take and their take alone, but when a stance will still inevitably be taken by the writer itself, it comes off as even more ridiculous at how much effort is being put into disproving how others view the character

But that's kinda the thing, we don't know what direction Sage's character is going to take from here on out. At best, we have assumptions based on what was shown in the narrative with the character.

And what we've seen in the narrative is incredibly broad reaching to the point it can be surprising. What Sage has shown, both toward the protagonists, and to her creator Eggman, establishes a connection that future narratives can take. At it's most simplistic, it's a matter of whether Sage helps or hinders the heroes and maybe her creator, but the magnitude and the motives are too unknown to be too certain.

That's a core reason as to why I don't side with the idea that her arc was finished. Really, I've never sided with that idea for any character--if you replaced Sage for Cream the Rabbit (or people's favorite punching bag, Shadow the Hedgehog, who gets this more often that people should know better by now), I still would've said a lot of the same things I said earlier (barring the connection to Eggman and what not). There's no telling what they can do with Sage, but that ambiguity in itself leaves a lot of room open for future arcs to explore with the character, especially given how she's only interacted with very few of the cast--imagine Sage and Shadow in an arc, imagine Sage and Metal Sonic in an arc, imagine Sage and Amy, Sage and Whisper, Sage and the Freedom Fighters (YEAH I SAID IT! FUCKING FIGHT ME! LET'S GO! XD), Sage or Emerl, Sage and Silver, Sage and Tangle, Sage and the Deadly Six, etc.

And those are just interactions, not a full on story--imagine these around an actual narrative. It's not easy to predict, but it's interesting to think about and imagine. All in all, there's a future for Sage, and we're just at the very beginning of witnessing it.

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