Jump to content
Awoo.

Should Sage become a permanent mainstay?


Johnny Boy

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

But that's kinda the thing, we don't know what direction Sage's character is going to take. At best, we have assumptions based on what she's shown in the narrative.

But what we've seen in the narrative is incredibly broad reaching to the point it can be surprising. What Sage has shown, both toward the protagonists, and to her creator Eggman, establishes a connection that future narratives can take. At it's most simplistic, it's a matter of whether Sage helps or hinders the heroes, but the magnitude and the motives are too unknown to be too certain.

That's a core reason as to why I don't side with the idea that her arc was finished. Really, I've never sided with that idea for any character--if you replaced Sage for Cream the Rabbit, I still would've said a lot of the same things I said earlier (barring the connection to Eggman and what not). There's no telling what they can do with Sage, but that ambiguity in itself leaves a lot of room open for future arcs to explore with the character.

Pretty much. Regardless of where Sage ends up on the alignment stream, her story is definitely not over. If by some oddity, Flynn does end her story with the DLC, then I at least expect we'll get proper closure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually hope he doesn't end Sage's story, because I really do want to see those other interactions. You couldn't make a bigger waste of character than one like Sage with the capabilities she has, and it would make even less sense to end her when Eggman went through the hassle of remaking her anew...although, he could just remake her again, so I guess we're stuck with Sage regardless. XD

At the very least, give folks a story where Sage teams up with her older brother Metal Sonic to fuck some shit up for Eggman. You already know the potential is there for them to pass that up that goldmine of story.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I actually hope he doesn't end Sage's story, because I really do want to see those other interactions. You couldn't make a bigger waste of character than one like Sage with the capabilities she has, and it would make even less sense to end her when Eggman went through the hassle of remaking her anew...although, he could just remake her again, so I guess we're stuck with Sage regardless. XD

At the very least, give folks a story where Sage teams up with her older brother Metal Sonic to fuck some shit up for Eggman. You already know the potential is there for them to pass that up that goldmine of story.

Hell yeah. Say what you will about story potential, but Sage does provide for some vastly interesting action potential as well. Especially  coupled with her big brother Metal.

Though, going back to the story deets, it would be a very interesting avenue to see how she and Metal Sonic would intermingle as siblings. Metal, finally having someone who's on his level could potentially see her as competition, given how lately his and Eggman's relationship has been pushed as semi-supportive Dad and Son, or actually come to respect and possibly even relish her company.

I just imagine scenes of them conducting activities ranging from the extreme such as world conquering plots, to the mundane of everyday activities as a family.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could imagine Sage empowering Metal Sonic with Ancient Technology.

If Sonic thought the Titans were a hassle, imagine a new Titan Metal Sonic with ancient technology meshed into him thanks to Sage. You could potentially make a modern day Knuckles Chaotix with that idea.

  • Fist Bump 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

They are her brothers. She needs to actually interact with them like a family, not replace them outright.

I'd be fine with her becoming more prominent than them overall, but let's not shoo them out entirely.

Naw get rid of them.

  • Fist Bump 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

But that's kinda the thing, we don't know what direction Sage's character is going to take from here on out. At best, we have assumptions based on what was shown in the narrative with the character.

And what we've seen in the narrative is incredibly broad reaching to the point it can be surprising. What Sage has shown, both toward the protagonists, and to her creator Eggman, establishes a connection that future narratives can take. At it's most simplistic, it's a matter of whether Sage helps or hinders the heroes and maybe her creator, but the magnitude and the motives are too unknown to be too certain.

That's a core reason as to why I don't side with the idea that her arc was finished. Really, I've never sided with that idea for any character--if you replaced Sage for Cream the Rabbit (or people's favorite punching bag, Shadow the Hedgehog, who gets this more often that people should know better by now), I still would've said a lot of the same things I said earlier (barring the connection to Eggman and what not). There's no telling what they can do with Sage, but that ambiguity in itself leaves a lot of room open for future arcs to explore with the character, especially given how she's only interacted with very few of the cast--imagine Sage and Shadow in an arc, imagine Sage and Metal Sonic in an arc, imagine Sage and Amy, Sage and Whisper, Sage and the Freedom Fighters (YEAH I SAID IT! FUCKING FIGHT ME! LET'S GO! XD), Sage or Emerl, Sage and Silver, Sage and Tangle, Sage and the Deadly Six, etc.

And those are just interactions, not a full on story--imagine these around an actual narrative. It's not easy to predict, but it's interesting to think about and imagine. All in all, there's a future for Sage, and we're just at the very beginning of witnessing it.

But that's just it, a lot of the character arcs these characters had did finish. Shadow literally died at the end of his debut, and he only came back through fan demand. There were no long term plans for him otherwise.

That's not to say you can't do another character arc, but if you've resolved a character's core issues already, you'll have to invent new issues...which may or may not work depending on the execution.

Its the inherent issue with a lot of Sonic characters; their initial arcs are concluded and then just stay around and don't do anything of note, or in the worst cases, they have be forced into the conflict in a way that doesn't feel organic or believable.

 

Now to Sage's credit; she's in a much more ambiguous spot than say, Shadow or Knuckles. And Ian Flynn hints that her story isn't over yet, which is good. Character arcs that span multiple games are good for the character longevity and its something they should have been doing if they planned on keeping such a large supporting cast.

 

 

Now what Sage does after this is another story. I'll admit that she's in a weird spot as a character as its hard to say what role can she play long term.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

Mentioning Shadow's death and return in this thread just made by brain creak to a halt:

  Hide contents

a764db8e5b2ed2db7cca52efa73f2d207fd3298c_hq.jpg

M28HKer.png

 

755

sonic-frontiers-glyph-sage-true-ending.jpg

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they were going for too. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they were going for too. 

Decided to go datamining through Frontiers' placeholder DLC files and found this prototype called "TruePath_05", not sure what to make of it:

image.png.9bbb26e452f5ef3f6e024b2c27d26154.png

  • Chuckle 2
  • Way Past Cool 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

If Eggman had the skills to hi-jack the Ancient's Technology--something he flat out stated to be far more advanced than his, so by his own admission, no he did not--he wouldn't have created Sage in the first place. In fact, he wouldn't have needed to bother with dealing with the Ancient's Technology in the first place to set the entire plot of Frontiers in motion. And he would have been able to find a way out of Cyber Space on his own.

In other words, the narrative showed the exact opposite of your claim.

The door was left open for her to comeback and be Eggman's daughter working to help him accomplish his goals. If that makes her a pawn, sure we can go with that. One more useful creation for Eggman to have at his beck and call in his goals of world conquest and empire building.

I never really agreed with the whole "Good or Evil" thing to begin with, just that Sage fought against, then later sided with Sonic to protect Eggman. I did acknowledge that Sage is loyal to Eggman (which I find doubtful not to believe given that she admitted in-story her primary goal was to keep Eggman safe), but that she's a lot more fluid than just good or evil.

Whether or not the premise of her being loyal to Eggman holds or not, that's not the premise I'm making here. The literal start of this debacle was the premise that "Sage's arc was done" to which I countered with the question "they couldn't just give her a new one"...which is essentially what they've done for plenty of other characters, because a character finishing their arc doesn't mean there's nothing more to the character.

Eggman literally built sage. So by doing that, he shows he is capable of deciphering the ancients. Sage is his tool, not something which existed outside of his influence. 

They havent given characters new arcs. Maybe Shadow, who had his cringe game, and something decent in 06. Nothing after that, and nothing for anyone else. In all this time I dont have faith in Sega that they can pull off "nuance".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Eggman literally built sage. So by doing that, he shows he is capable of deciphering the ancients. Sage is his tool, not something which existed outside of his influence. 

Tools often exist to help us do things we can't do on our own. Building a pulley to lift a heavy object doesn't mean we're capable of lifting it with our bare hands. Even IRL machine learning can find solutions we didn't expect through methods we don't entirely understand, and we're talking about a fictional AI that's functionally a real person; while she's obviously not fully independent of him, I don't think you can fairly argue she's nothing more than an extension of Eggman's own abilities. And that's before considering that the game says connecting to cyberspace enhanced her abilities beyond her original programming.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

Eggman literally built sage. So by doing that, he shows he is capable of deciphering the ancients. Sage is his tool, not something which existed outside of his influence. 

Not really. By that logic, Tails didn't need to build the translator for the Wisps back in Colors, because supposedly building a translator, meant he already knew the Wisps' language, even though we clearly know that to not be the case.

Same goes for Eggman and Sage. Sage was made with the purpose of interacting with the ruins in a manner that Eggman himself couldn't. And due to said interaction,  she ended up growing into something far beyond the simple AI he'd created in the first place.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That raises a question though; if Sage was made with the purpose of helping Eggman takeover the Ancient's technology, will Eggman be using that in future games to justify her presence? I don't think Eggman has ever really needed assistance with running his mechs as far as the games have been concenred.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That raises a question though; if Sage was made with the purpose of helping Eggman takeover the Ancient's technology, will Eggman be using that in future games to justify her presence? I don't think Eggman has ever really needed assistance with running his mechs as far as the games have been concenred.

With the abilities that Sage gained along with her more human form, I could see him adapting those abilities,  especially given the potential for enhancement to his own mechs if he can retain and harness the powers she gained from the ruins.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That raises a question though; if Sage was made with the purpose of helping Eggman takeover the Ancient's technology, will Eggman be using that in future games to justify her presence? I don't think Eggman has ever really needed assistance with running his mechs as far as the games have been concenred.

He did mention future plans for her, like integrating her into the Eggnet.

This is also an easy out if they want her to have a mostly noncombatant support role; Sage can help manage the finer details of the Eggman Empire while Eggman focuses more on the big picture and his latest scheme.

Essentially becoming the personification of Eggman's network is a simple enough purpose that can easily keep Sage around for the foreseeable future. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2022 at 8:05 AM, Dejablue said:

Eggman literally built sage. So by doing that, he shows he is capable of deciphering the ancients. Sage is his tool, not something which existed outside of his influence. 
 

What sound logic: Eggman built Sage, therefore he could decipher the ancients’ tech without her. No gaps in there at all.

Except for the fact that the reason why he built her in the first place was because he could not decipher the ancients tech and needed a means to do so.

Not to the same degree in which she was able to do for him at least, hence why he built her. You know how you make a calculator to solve bigger numbers much more easily than doing it in your head (and likely getting it wrong)? That’s essentially what Eggman did using Sage for the Ancients' Technology, only she grew into something much more than that--she grew into something he could outright consider his daughter and one of his most proud creations.

And just like a calculator can still have limits based on the functions you give it, Sage had her limits as well. If you paid any attention to the story—which I know you have, so you pretending to be obtuse on these details is not working in your favor—Sage still couldn’t control everything regarding the Ancients tech. For example, she flat out tells Sonic when it came to the Wyvern Titan that she couldn’t fully control it, but she could influence its aggression toward him. Then she needed to work together with Sonic on Ouranos island, and it was her that was needed to pilot the final mech to deal with the true threat.

So no, Eggman wasn’t capable of deciphering the Ancients—he needed Sage and built her in order to do so. And even then, there were still limits to what Sage was capable of taking control of.

Plus, and I'm sure you were aware of this before making this statement, Sage was keeping Eggman in Cyber Space to protect him from the true threat. Everything she did was to protect Eggman--Sage straight up said this, and even Sonic was clued in on this based on Sage sending threats after him.

All in all, Sage is very much a core part of Frontiers that not having her around would require vast changes to the story—and your dislike and dishonesty towards this character is not going to change the fact.

On 12/20/2022 at 8:05 AM, Dejablue said:

They havent given characters new arcs. Maybe Shadow, who had his cringe game, and something decent in 06. Nothing after that, and nothing for anyone else. In all this time I dont have faith in Sega that they can pull off "nuance".

Again, they can’t give them a new one? 

I didn’t ask if they did or if they have, I asked if they could. And they most certainly can—Frontiers was just such an arc for Tails, Amy, and Knuckles after their previous arcs had finished, and they and Sage are likely to get a new one come the end of next year.

And nothing stops her from having a new one in the future beyond that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/19/2022 at 2:25 PM, Dejablue said:

She can but will she? I doubt it. Outside of stay "evil" or turn good. It is dissonant to me that Sage will want to continue being a threat to Sonic. A tension like that has to break one way or the other. And soon or it will get old. Or ignore the issue entirely which would be bad. Or super ignore it by having Eggman not use her at all and she just awkwadly exists at the base. 

That is the joy of story telling. It is called waiting. Again a concept many are having a hard time wrapping their heads around is going forward Sega is trying (and lord knows they need to) to tie the stories into one flowing tale. Akin to many Shonen mangas or any other constant story. Before Sonic games story's have been as connected as a Lego to a Megablox piece. With loose bits here and there of oh yea this happened but never outright showing it. With frontiers. Ian and sega are writing the games as such the next one should lead off frontiers and have a focused story going forward with whatever happened in the last game carrying heavier in future titles. And with the IDW comics being canon now the possibility of the stories are crazy. Sage can have way more to do in the future. Does she have to be full on evil? No but she can be given roles such as being introduced to her family and put in charge of the eggnet as Eggman stated with her in charge of sending things after Sonic and gang or telling metal to either attack or back down as she as stated does not hate Sonic but I am sure she will try to make dad happy in stopping him at least from time to time and interacting with Belle somewhat. Trying to argue with each other with belle flat out rejecting him and Sage knowing what Eggman does still love him as a dad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2022 at 12:21 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

He did mention future plans for her, like integrating her into the Eggnet.

This is also an easy out if they want her to have a mostly noncombatant support role; Sage can help manage the finer details of the Eggman Empire while Eggman focuses more on the big picture and his latest scheme.

Essentially becoming the personification of Eggman's network is a simple enough purpose that can easily keep Sage around for the foreseeable future. 

Honestly, it makes me consider if we'll get new forms and battle modes for Sage in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know how in many continuities in which Eggman/Robotnik has a comedic duo that serves as his personal helpers? (Scratch and Grounder from AoStH, Sleet and Dingo from Underground, Decoe and Bocoe from X, and of course Orbot and Cubot from the games) Some of them have a third member that carries out a different function like Coconuts (AoStH) and Bokkun (X). I can see Sage filling in that role of "third Eggman/Robotnik assistant".

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Sage were to be playable in a future game of the Adventure format, then what would be her playstyle? How would she fight? Which type of stages would she be played in other than the ones with speed, shooting, or treasure hunting? Who would assist her in stages wherein she is playable other than anyone of the Eggman Empire (considering that the likes of Dr. Eggman and Metal Sonic would be playable)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Count me in the category of "fan of Sage".  Now I don't think Sage as she is currently portrayed is perfect by any means. There are issues with her character that can be better addressed if Sage does indeed appear in the future, but those have already been mentioned here so I won't repeat them. The important thing is, overall, I think she can make for an interesting addition to the games. Her somewhat "grey" personality, not quite a hero but not a 100% true villain either (maybe an anti-villain), is precisely what makes her fascinating to me. That can open up lots of potentially interesting stories besides the usual Sonic vs Eggman dynamic. 

Speaking of Sage...so long as you are not in the "Sage hater" or "indifferent to Sage" category, my family and friends who played Frontiers all experienced (or only grudgingly admitted) to be surprisingly touched on an emotional level by her story arc and her ending (won't spell it out here so as not to spoil it for those who haven't yet played it). A grown 20 year old man who just finished Frontiers said he had tears rolling down his cheek. A 12 year old told me he straight out cried in the end. Wow...Sonic fans that I personally know have never cried or be touched on such an emotional level playing Sonic games before. Wonder if those are isolated incidents or did others here also experienced something like that emotionally? 

 

Edited by Cooldude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies if this was mentioned earlier, but I also want to know, is it confirmed at this point that Sage is based on "Rei Ayanami" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion"? Her red eyes, pale hair and character certainly does have a resemblance to Rei. The design of the "titans" from Frontiers also seem inspired from Evangelion. 

Personally, the look of Sage seems to make me think of those magical girls from the "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" anime series, although that probably is only a coincidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

Apologies if this was mentioned earlier, but I also want to know, is it confirmed at this point that Sage is based on "Rei Ayanami" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion"? Her red eyes, pale hair and character certainly does have a resemblance to Rei. The design of the "titans" from Frontiers also seem inspired from Evangelion. 

It hasn't been confirmed really. Although, she does have both the VAs of Rei, American and Japanese, so make of that what you will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It hasn't been confirmed really. Although, she does have both the VAs of Rei, American and Japanese, so make of that what you will.

Thanks for your reply. Since Sage fans are making allusions to "The End of Evangelion" like the image below (parodying the surreal head-scratching ending of that movie), I was guessing the connection between Sage and Rei was pretty solid, although the powers-that-be are withholding "official" confirmation at this point, like you said:

 

spacer.png 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO, absolutely not. She just doesn't fit in with the rest of the cast. While I absolutely LOVE sage, she just isn't a good addition. She should stay in Sonic Frontiers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.