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Should Sage become a permanent mainstay?


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After playing the game, I would have to say YES. I mean, I see some interesting development and conflict within her in the future, especially possibly maybe with after learning more about Sonic, it would make it hard for her to decide if she should side with Eggman against him. I would like to see where that goes. I also would like to see her interactions with Orbot and Cubot, honestly.

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16 minutes ago, ShinyGems said:

After playing the game, I would have to say YES. I mean, I see some interesting development and conflict within her in the future, especially possibly maybe with after learning more about Sonic, it would make it hard for her to decide if she should side with Eggman against him. I would like to see where that goes. I also would like to see her interactions with Orbot and Cubot, honestly.

I think things are look relatively well and fine for her return. Between the extra secret ending and the overall positive reception she got from the fanbase, I can definitely seem them bringing her back to flesh her out more, and do more with her.

And hey, she'll likely be another playable character in the spin-offs too. XD

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1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think things are look relatively well and fine for her return. Between the extra secret ending and the overall positive reception she got from the fanbase, I can definitely seem them bringing her back to flesh her out more, and do more with her.

And hey, she'll likely be another playable character in the spin-offs too. XD

You can say all that again! I would love to play as her in an Olympics game. I just like the idea of playing as her in such a game. Other than that, I can't wait to see what they do with her later on down the road.

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2 hours ago, ShinyGems said:

After playing the game, I would have to say YES. I mean, I see some interesting development and conflict within her in the future, especially possibly maybe with after learning more about Sonic, it would make it hard for her to decide if she should side with Eggman against him. I would like to see where that goes. I also would like to see her interactions with Orbot and Cubot, honestly.

Exactly. I see some interesting story possibilities for Sage in the future. If Ian Flynn or other talented writers get the chance to flesh out her character more. Speaking of which, what kind of future stories do you want to see Sage in? 

Some fans seem to want to see Sage "go to school" like a normal girl. Now I'm not saying that is actually is a good story idea, but I have to admit it is kinda cute how this plays on the father-daughter dyanmic between Eggman and Sage:spacer.png

Edited by Cooldude
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15 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

Exactly. I see some interesting story possibilities for Sage in the future. If Ian Flynn or other talented writers get the chance to flesh out her character more. Speaking of which, what kind of future stories do you want to see Sage in? 

In short, serious stories. I can see some humor be added, but I am not sure about her being part of a full comedy game, something like Colors. Still, I, as I said, would like to see her interact with Orbot and Cubot and react to any number of stupid things the latter two do.

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  On 1/13/2023 at 9:45 AM, ShinyGems said:

In short, serious stories. I can see some humor be added, but I am not sure about her being part of a full comedy game, something like Colors. Still, I, as I said, would like to see her interact with Orbot and Cubot and react to any number of stupid things the latter two do.

Yeah. Sage is based (arguably) on the "Rei Ayanami" trope pioneered in Evangelion and has become a popular anime character "type". A reserved and quiet girl with funny eye color and pale hair color. Sage's character type usually starts off in the story with air of mystery to her, speaks in riddles or have a somewhat robotic non-emotional character. Then as the story progresses, we get to learn more about her background and her role in the main story. Sometimes she grows and develops as a character as the story progresses along, learning to chill a little and show more of a unique personality. 

Its a bit like...Data in Star Trek the Next Generation. He starts off as an android little different to a robot and lacking understanding in the norms and ways of the human world. Then as the seasons go by, Data gets to learn more about the human society and he grows as a character. And Data got his funny moments in TNG as well. 

I could see the same with Sage. Her overall story can ber serious, but she should have some funny/comedic moments interacting with Orbot and Cubot as you say, or even with Sonic and his pals, based in part on her lack of understanding of the human world. There can also be some tender father-daugher moment between Eggman and Sage too. 

 

Edited by Cooldude
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1 hour ago, Cooldude said:
  On 1/13/2023 at 9:45 AM, ShinyGems said:

In short, serious stories. I can see some humor be added, but I am not sure about her being part of a full comedy game, something like Colors. Still, I, as I said, would like to see her interact with Orbot and Cubot and react to any number of stupid things the latter two do.

Yeah. Sage is based (arguably) on the "Rei Ayanami" trope pioneered in Evangelion and has become a popular anime character "type". A reserved and quiet girl with funny eye color and pale hair color. Sage's character type usually starts off in the story with air of mystery to her, speaks in riddles or have a somewhat robotic non-emotional character. Then as the story progresses, we get to learn more about her background and her role in the main story. Sometimes she grows and develops as a character as the story progresses along, learning to chill a little and show more of a unique personality. 

Its a bit like...Data in Star Trek the Next Generation. He starts off as an android little different to a robot and lacking understanding in the norms and ways of the human world. Then as the seasons go by, Data gets to learn more about the human society and he grows as a character. And Data got his funny moments in TNG as well. 

I could see the same with Sage. Her overall story can ber serious, but she should have some funny/comedic moments interacting with Orbot and Cubot as you say, or even with Sonic and his pals, based in part on her lack of understanding of the human world. There can also be some tender father-daugher moment between Eggman and Sage too. 

I know what you mean.

Out of all the new characters post Sonic 06, I would say Sage has had the most development as a character, and the most potential as a character. I can see that there can be a lot that can be done with her, and that is a good thing. I just wonder what is next for her.

By the way, that scene where Sonic and Tails were talking, and Sage was listening in on the two; (this was on Chaos Island, by the way, of course) when she commented on their friendship, and shed a tear, that made me cry a little. That said, I still think there could be more moments that are like that; even if they are just kinda like that; which they could have Sage do, you know what I mean?

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I don't want Sage to be treated as an "evil" character. She works for Eggman and can help him with his evil plans, but at the same time I want her to stay neutral and keep the respect and admiration for Sonic she grew during the events of Frontiers.

At some point I'd like if Eggman recognizes that she isn't evil enough for stuff and leaves her out of some jobs in respect of her choice, instead of forcing her to do evil things which go against her will and personality (example "I know that you would never do such a thing, so I'll deal personally with it, in the meanwhile you can do that instead").

I like her being a shy character who plans stuff in the background (if needed, even against the given orders), who is very emotional but also doesn't like to expose those emotions and who wants to appear as a cold person regardless; I also like the rivality between her and Sonic... even if Sonic already has many rivals, I liked the dynamic of her constantly "testing his skills" and having fun in doing so, even if she doesn't really hate him by the end.

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2 hours ago, Iko said:

I don't want Sage to be treated as an "evil" character. She works for Eggman and can help him with his evil plans, but at the same time I want her to stay neutral and keep the respect and admiration for Sonic she grew during the events of Frontiers.

 

Part of Sage's appeal, already hinted at by ShinyGems above, is that she has a degree of agency or autonomy, due to the fact she isn't entirely evil, that makes her different from other Eggman's creations. Orbot and Cubot are sort of just comedic minions of Eggman, not a serious threat to Sonic. Metal Sonic is more of a threat, but his essentially evil and ruthless nature doesn't give him a lot of character development like Sage. Phage from the comics have a somewhat similar origin to Sage, in that it was created as a computer program by Eggman, but Phage, like Metal, was yet another 100% wicked and dark being, serving only as a computer virus for Eggman to attack his foes. So Sage stands out for her ambiguous nature. That grants her more freedom to develop as a character. 

 

Edited by Cooldude
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I'm all in favor of more moral grey characters on the antagonist side.

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You know, not that Sonic would do it, but I think Sonic would, or should never kill Sage, even if given the opportunity. Given how Eggman cares about Sage like a father with his daughter, Eggman would be really ticked off, I mean pissed off, and would really try to kill Sonic for that. I don't think Eggman would win against Sonic in such a fight; given how many times the hedgehog has kicked the scientist's ass before; but I would actually hate to see Eggman get so angry at Sonic; or anyone for that matter; killing Sage. This is just a thought I wanted to post, by the way.

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3 minutes ago, Eurisko said:

Yes, but not for a while. 

That is actually an interesting opinion, and by extension; a possibly reasonable one as well. Since I would like to know about it, would you please care to explain why you think that, especially on the "not for a while" part?

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19 hours ago, ShinyGems said:

You know, not that Sonic would do it, but I think Sonic would, or should never kill Sage, even if given the opportunity. Given how Eggman cares about Sage like a father with his daughter, Eggman would be really ticked off, I mean pissed off, and would really try to kill Sonic for that. I don't think Eggman would win against Sonic in such a fight; given how many times the hedgehog has kicked the scientist's ass before; but I would actually hate to see Eggman get so angry at Sonic; or anyone for that matter; killing Sage. This is just a thought I wanted to post, by the way.

I don't know...I think Sega won't go down that story route...at least not for the immediate future. Because that sounds way too dark and grim for Sonic stories. I mean, we are not talking about Shakespearean tragedies here. Sonic is not supposed to be "Hamlet" or "King Lear", hehe. 

That being said, if I remember correctly, there were some tragic stories in the comics involving Eggman's AI creation...give me a moment to recall. Ah yes, wasn't there a story about Sonic's pal Turtle Tom (or is it Tommy Turtle? I don't remember the correct name). Anyway, that turtle got taken over by one of Eggman's AI creation, A.D.A.M, and then Sonic was forced to see his turtle pal get blown up by Eggman after A.D.A.M rebel against his creator? That was pretty dark and tragic...at least for Sonic stories. 

Edited by Cooldude
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43 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

I don't know...I think Sega won't go down that story route...at least not for the immediate future. Because that sounds way too dark and grim for Sonic stories. I mean, we are not talking about Shakespearean tragedies here. Sonic is not supposed to be "Hamlet" or "King Lear", hehe. 

That being said, if I remember correctly, there were some tragic stories in the comics involving Eggman's AI creation...give me a moment to recall. Ah yes, wasn't there a story about Sonic's pal Turtle Tom (or is it Tommy Turtle? I don't remember the correct name). Anyway, that turtle got taken over by one of Eggman's AI creation, A.D.A.M, and then Sonic was forced to see his turtle pal get blown up by Eggman after A.D.A.M rebel against his creator? That was pretty dark and tragic...at least for Sonic stories. 

It was just a random thought I had. Nothing more. I am aware of how dark and tragic that sounds. Still, it is not like I actually want something like that to happen.

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SAGE? Yes, definitely she should become permanent. If lackeys like Cubot and Orbot can survive this long then so should actual characters like SAGE.

She's single handedly one of the most interesting new members of the cast to appear in the franchise for a very long time rather than a one and done villain (or one that "outsmarts" Eggman at the end to become the true final boss). Not only does a sentient AI become a daughter figure for Eggman (which is a neat new area of character to dig into for him), but she remains loyal despite seeing what the hero characters are capable of. 

I'd like see Sonic Team / Ian develop how she continues her relationships between Eggman and Sonic. Clearly she values and respects her father highly, but she also has a unique understanding into Sonic and his crowd of friends and why they do what they do. She feels like the bridge between the factions - and (like in Frontiers) I could see her advising or even persuading Eggman to stop if he were to take his conquests too far. 

But the thing that hit the nail on the head for me with SAGE is that she opened up another window into an emotionally venerable Eggman, something that arguably hasn't really been seen since the end of Sonic Adventure 2 (where it got very personal for him). I always found it a shame that despite Sonic & Eggman's other (unwilling) team up's since then, Eggman's character growth got stunted after SA2 and he reverted back to his Dick Dastardly comedic persona. As SAGE helped forged that path back to a venerable Eggman, I hope this relationship and more gets explored further in the next title.

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7 hours ago, Cooldude said:

I don't know...I think Sega won't go down that story route...at least not for the immediate future. Because that sounds way too dark and grim for Sonic stories. I mean, we are not talking about Shakespearean tragedies here. Sonic is not supposed to be "Hamlet" or "King Lear", hehe. 

Honestly hasn't really stopped them before. Remember when Super Sonic gored through Dark Gaia's eye in Unleashed and it bled (Green blood, but still) in its defeat? You can't tell me that wasn't dark and grim for Sonic.

7 hours ago, Cooldude said:

That being said, if I remember correctly, there were some tragic stories in the comics involving Eggman's AI creation...give me a moment to recall. Ah yes, wasn't there a story about Sonic's pal Turtle Tom (or is it Tommy Turtle? I don't remember the correct name). Anyway, that turtle got taken over by one of Eggman's AI creation, A.D.A.M, and then Sonic was forced to see his turtle pal get blown up by Eggman after A.D.A.M rebel against his creator? That was pretty dark and tragic...at least for Sonic stories. 

Eh...not for the AI tho. Mind you, that's a different (and more sociopathic) Eggman who's done far worse, and that story was actually mild compared to the other stories after it--characters who've had their souls straight ripped out of their bodies and used as slaves, Eggman using his Egg Grapes to literally drain the victims' life and wipe out a good chunk of the cast, and Tommy Turtle's death doesn't even come close to the terror that was the Metal Virus arc in IDW.

You shouldn't really put it past them to not want to tell stories like that. The question is mostly how they'd tell it, because that's where the real problems would come and determine whether they'd actually go down that route or not. You'd need to arrange the narrative and motives of the characters so that it would align and sell the tragedy rather than doing it just for the shock value. Basically, there should be a point to it, otherwise, why bother doing it?

And that's a serious question--how would you genuinely sell the idea of Sonic killing Sage? It's not impossible, but you have to actually make it believable.

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2 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Honestly hasn't really stopped them before. Remember when Super Sonic gored through Dark Gaia's eye in Unleashed and it bled (Green blood, but still) in its defeat? You can't tell me that wasn't dark and grim for Sonic.

Eh...not for the AI tho. Mind you, that's a different (and more sociopathic) Eggman who's done far worse, and that story was actually mild compared to the other stories after it--characters who've had their souls straight ripped out of their bodies and used as slaves, Eggman using his Egg Grapes to literally drain the victims' life and wipe out a good chunk of the cast, and Tommy Turtle's death doesn't even come close to the terror that was the Metal Virus arc in IDW.

You shouldn't really put it past them to not want to tell stories like that. The question is mostly how they'd tell it, because that's where the real problems would come and determine whether they'd actually go down that route or not. You'd need to arrange the narrative and motives of the characters so that it would align and sell the tragedy rather than doing it just for the shock value. Basically, there should be a point to it, otherwise, why bother doing it?

And that's a serious question--how would you genuinely sell the idea of Sonic killing Sage? It's not impossible, but you have to actually make it believable.

You are describing pseudo-horrific storylines. I am talking about dark tragic storyline, they are not the same thing. What works in the comics doesn't always work in the games and vice versa.

I maintain Sega will not contemplate killing off Sage if they are more than likely to being her back. So not much point dwelling on a purely hypothetical scenario.

Edited by Cooldude
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Moving this status update over to this topic, due to its closer relevance to the ongoing discussion regarding SAGE as a character. It is a bit more impression-driven than a comprehensive post, due to the nature of status updates, but I might as well post it in the space where its more relevant and less irritating, as a repeated source of contention:

 

 

 "Anyone else weirded out by Ian's bumblekast takeaway for Eggman wrt SAGE in Frontiers?

Like it works, especially in maintaining Eggman still in service of his own ego and little more, but coming from the game itself... it doesn't line up, right? The love/attachment he had towards Sage was coming from sincere love and consideration towards her as her own individual? In multiple cutscenes and egg memos? The entire final camera shot with the comets falling, highlighting the pain then determination he felt???

The fandom surrounding Eggman + Sage is practically built around the wholesome impression it left; jumping back to making it Belle 2.0 would be... incredibly confusing"

 

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Copy/pasting my response from the statuses, since you've moved the discussion here:

I feel like he's deliberately playing up the negative angle here, maybe because the fanbase is so quick to latch onto the positive angle that they're inclined to overlook the negative, but it's not coming from nothing. The way I see it Eggman does feel legitimate affection for Sage, but the problem is he's a villain, a madman, an egotist, an asshole, he doesn't really have it in him to do the caring, supportive father figure thing. So he's got to reconcile the two sides of himself, and his solution is that Dr Frankenstein and his monster kind of framing, where he's routing his feelings about Sage through his ego so he can preserve his perception of himself instead of facing what those feelings might mean about who he is as a person. And that's, not really a formula for a healthy relationship? He's not being entirely honest with himself, he's still keeping something of a wall between the two of them. He's not inclined to change and he may not react well if a situation forces him to confront it.

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I didn't care for how much Frontiers tried to play up Eggman's sweet side so I'm actually a little relieved Ian made this point. Eggman is a egotistical asshole, and I could only see him loving someone that was an extension of his own ego in the end.

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I mean, I always thought that angle was kind of obvious that even with Sage revealing some decent qualities of Eggman, that he was still of course, the series villain.

I mean, the man even made it a point of "inducting Sonic into the Eggman Empire" rather than suggest he was partnering with Sonic and redeeming himself.

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40 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I didn't care for how much Frontiers tried to play up Eggman's sweet side so I'm actually a little relieved Ian made this point. Eggman is a egotistical asshole, and I could only see him loving someone that was an extension of his own ego in the end.

I don't understand why you have to make it an "either/or" situation, that either Eggman is now somehow a "good guy" because of Sage or he is still 100% evil. But no one here suggested that Eggman's care for Sage means he stops being the "bad guy". So its not black or white. 

You may not like it personally, but the reality is that a lot of fans like the Eggman-Sage daughter/father relationship, that does not mean Eggman is somehow now a "good guy". Nobody suggested that. The point about the Eggman-Sage relationship in Frontiers is that it added a little depth to Eggman. We are accustomed to seeing him as the evil-doer, but that doesn't mean there aren't other angles to his character that can be explored. The whole "sympathy for the devil" angle at the end of Frontiers is meant to raise those questions. It doesn't make Eggman as someone we can root for, but it does throw a little moral complexity in that character especially with Sage.

And I like that. Its so boring to have a cartoon villain all the time with no redeeming qualities. The fact Eggman now has an interesting parental relationship with Sage makes his character a little more interesting. That does not stop him from being evil in other ways. 

Edited by Cooldude
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