Should Sage become a permanent mainstay?

[Blue Blood]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I really can't read into Eggman's relationship with Sage one way or another. There's just so little to go on. However you try to spin it, it just feels totally underdeveloped and therefore very forced. In particular, the way that the two of them suddenly start throwing around the words father and daughter as names is anything but natural.

Eggman's line "Be farewell... Dear daughter" was about as subtle as a brick, because there was no other way that they could make sure the audience knew he was losing a child. It was cringe-worthy because of how forced it was. And yet it wasn't even the worst moment. That dubious honour has to go to the LALALALALA flashback cutscene. That particular scene just epitomised how little Eggman and Sage had supposedly been through. Their relationship had no time to flourish. They got so little screen together the audience wouldn't know anything about their relationship if it wasn't spelled out explicitly. 

Flynn's commentary that Eggman's "love" for Sage is still self-absorbed he egotistical doesn't come across very well in the game. There's the one memo where he specifically reasons to himself that he can create life with computer code, but the leap between that and "the software I created is my child" just doesn't land. What leads to Eggman thinking of Sage as his daughter? A couple of cutscenes on the same stretch cyberspace road. By all accounts, Infinite should be Eggman's son if that's all it takes.

I just don't get what they thought they'd produced with Eggman and Sage in Frontiers. It's hard to understand exactly what the motives of both characters are throughout the game, and why they should give a fuck about each other. Do Sonic Team actually screen or test their scripts out? Because their methods of storytelling are always so ineffective. In several ways, the story of Frontiers struggles to make things clear to the audience. Regarding Eggman and Sage, they are supposed to be key characters of the games sad ending. If that's the story they wanted to tell, then the game should have focused a lot more on them together. And if they didn't want to do that, then maybe it wasn't the right story to tell. 

If anything, it was Sage's relationship with Sonic that was much more developed. She sees him as an enemy initially, likely because she was programmed to, and comes to learn that she had the wrong idea about him. But then she becomes curious about how he behaves with his friends and respects his abilities enough to repeatedly encourage Eggman to work with him. Even after she repeatedly antagonises him, Sonic never rises to it. He even defends her and offers to help after Knuckles tries to attack her. That confuses her and makes her want to learn and understand. 

Eggman and Sage however? There's really no believable or logical development there. All Eggman does is shoot her down for not getting him out of Cyberspace sooner, and Eggman seems to be unaware that it was her intent to keep him in Cyberspace as the real world was about to become unsafe. She told a joke about Sonic. Is that it?

The key thing is, absolutely nothing happens with the two of them. I like the idea of Sage. Eggman having finally created an AI and a character that he actually gives a damn about is very interesting. Orbot and Cubot are rubbish characters, whilst Metal Sonic is barely a character. Sage is an idea that sounds great on paper. But right now, the supposed development and relationship just doesn't exist. 

[The Deleter]

Yeah I'm of two minds of it as well I suppose. The theoretical idea of what it should be, as intended either by the storybeats (not like that hasn't been the case for Sonic games before *coughshadowsendingcough*) or the writer's intent, and how the actual execution of it in the storyline not properly conveying all those elements. The bumblekast clip basically threw me for a loop, as just like everyone in this thread, I assumed the relationship was leaning more into unconditional love, rather than affirmation for his own ego as the true baseline.

Thinking on it more I think I'm also glad to know this is the case, but I'll have to see it in action in the DLC before I'm convinced it can be conveyed properly. The ground its built on is too shakey to be confident in any direction as of right now imo

Doubly so when we don't even know the nature of rebooted SAGE, either

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

21 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The bumblekast clip basically threw me for a loop, as just like everyone in this thread, I assumed the relationship was leaning more into unconditional love, rather than affirmation for his own ego as the true baseline.

I think it's a bit inaccurate to claim that nobody was expecting that there could be other elements in Eggman's brand of affection for Sage. This revelation from Ian doesn't necessarily clash with it either.

[Cooldude]

31 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I really can't read into Eggman's relationship with Sage one way or another. There's just so little to go on. However you try to spin it, it just feels totally underdeveloped and therefore very forced. In particular, the way that the two of them suddenly start throwing around the words father and daughter as names is anything but natural.

Eggman's line "Be farewell... Dear daughter" was about as subtle as a brick, because there was no other way that they could make sure the audience knew he was losing a child. It was cringe worthy because of his forced it was. And yet it wasn't even the worst moment. That dubious honour has to go to the LALALALALA flashback cutscene. That particular scene just epitomised how little Eggman and Sage had supposedly been through. Their relationship had no tone to flourish. They got so little screen told ether the audience wouldn't know anything about their relationship if it wasn't spelled or in plain terms. 

Flynn's commentary that Eggman's "love" for Sage is still self-absorbed he egotistical doesn't come across very well in the game. There's the one memo where he specifically reasons to himself that he can create life with computer code, but the leap between that and "the software I created is my child" just doesn't land. What leads to Eggman thinking of Sage as his daughter? A couple of cutscenes on the same stretch cyberspace road. 

I just don't get what they thought they'd produced with Eggman and Sage in Frontiers. It's hard to understand exactly what the motives of both characters are throughout the game, and why they should give a fuck about each other. By all accounts, Sage's relationship with Sonic is much more developed. She sees him as an enemy initially, likely because she was programmed to, and comes to learn that she had the wrong idea about him. But then she becomes curious about how he behaves with his friends and respects his abilities enough to repeatedly encourage Eggman to work with him. And after she repeatedly antagonises him, Sonic never rises to it. She wants to learn and understand. 

Eggman and Sage however? There's really no believable or logical development there. All Eggman does is shoot her down for not getting him out of Cyberspace sooner, and Eggman seems to be unaware that it was her intent to keep him in Cyberspace as the real world was about to become unsafe. She told a joke about Sonic. Is that it?

The key thing is, absolutely nothing happens with the two of them. I like the idea of Sage. Eggman having finally created a machine and a character that he actually gives a damn about is very interesting. Orbot and Cubot are rubbish characters, whilst Metal Sonic is barely a character. Sage is an idea that sounds great on paper. But right now, the supposed development and relationship just doesn't exist. 

Well, it all depends on how you read into their dialogue and scenes between them. I'm not saying its done perfectly, there is certainly room for improvement and I agree it could have been done better, but you can see a beginning of a relationship between them. 

Of course, if you insist that relationship is just not there, then nothing I say will convince you. To each his own I guess.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Cooldude said:

I don't understand why you have to make it an "either/or" situation, that either Eggman is now somehow a "good guy" because of Sage or he is still 100% evil. But no one here suggested that Eggman's care for Sage means he stops being the "bad guy". So its not black or white. 

You may not like it personally, but the reality is that a lot of fans like the Eggman-Sage daughter/father relationship, that does not mean Eggman is somehow now a "good guy". Nobody suggested that. The point about the Eggman-Sage relationship in Frontiers is that it added a little depth to Eggman. We are accustomed to seeing him as the evil-doer, but that doesn't mean there aren't other angles to his character that can be explored. The whole "sympathy for the devil" angle at the end of Frontiers is meant to raise those questions. It doesn't make Eggman as someone we can root for, but it does throw a little moral complexity in that character especially with Sage.

And I like that. Its so boring to have a cartoon villain all the time with no redeeming qualities. The fact Eggman now has an interesting parental relationship with Sage makes his character a little more interesting. That does not stop him from being evil in other ways. 

A new dimension to a character should tie into our pre-established understanding of them and be developed properly to feel organic. Eggman secretly just wanting a kid this whole time is neither of those things. It's cool for the people who just want to make cute AUs, I guess, but for me it just makes his character less interesting.

[Blue Blood]

35 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

Well, it all depends on how you read into their dialogue and scenes between them. I'm not saying its done perfectly, there is certainly room for improvement and I agree it could have been done better, but you can see a beginning of a relationship between them. 

Of course, if you insist that relationship is just not there, then nothing I say will convince you. To each his own I guess.

At an absolute best, the most you can see is the very beginnings of a relationship. And honestly I think I'm being charitable in saying that. Even if you include the memos, Eggman and Sage don't get nearly enough screen time for a relationship to be established. 

[DaBigJ]

44 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I really can't read into Eggman's relationship with Sage one way or another. There's just so little to go on. However you try to spin it, it just feels totally underdeveloped and therefore very forced. In particular, the way that the two of them suddenly start throwing around the words father and daughter as names is anything but natural.

Eggman's line "Be farewell... Dear daughter" was about as subtle as a brick, because there was no other way that they could make sure the audience knew he was losing a child. It was cringe worthy because of his forced it was. And yet it wasn't even the worst moment. That dubious honour has to go to the LALALALALA flashback cutscene. That particular scene just epitomised how little Eggman and Sage had supposedly been through. Their relationship had no time to flourish. They got so little screen together the audience wouldn't know anything about their relationship if it wasn't spelled out explicitly. 

Flynn's commentary that Eggman's "love" for Sage is still self-absorbed he egotistical doesn't come across very well in the game. There's the one memo where he specifically reasons to himself that he can create life with computer code, but the leap between that and "the software I created is my child" just doesn't land. What leads to Eggman thinking of Sage as his daughter? A couple of cutscenes on the same stretch cyberspace road. 

I just don't get what they thought they'd produced with Eggman and Sage in Frontiers. It's hard to understand exactly what the motives of both characters are throughout the game, and why they should give a fuck about each other. Do Sonic Team actually screen or test their scripts out? Because their methods of storytelling are always so ineffective. In several ways, the story of Frontiers struggles to make things clear to the audience. Regarding Eggman and Sage, they are supposed to be key characters of the games sad ending. If that's the story they wanted to tell, then the game should have focused a lot more on them together. And if they didn't want to do that, then maybe it wasn't the right story to tell. 

By all accounts, Sage's relationship with Sonic is much more developed. She sees him as an enemy initially, likely because she was programmed to, and comes to learn that she had the wrong idea about him. But then she becomes curious about how he behaves with his friends and respects his abilities enough to repeatedly encourage Eggman to work with him. Even after she repeatedly antagonises him, Sonic never rises to it. He even defends her and offers to help after Knuckles tries to attack her. That confuses her and makes her want to learn and understand. 

Eggman and Sage however? There's really no believable or logical development there. All Eggman does is shoot her down for not getting him out of Cyberspace sooner, and Eggman seems to be unaware that it was her intent to keep him in Cyberspace as the real world was about to become unsafe. She told a joke about Sonic. Is that it?

The key thing is, absolutely nothing happens with the two of them. I like the idea of Sage. Eggman having finally created an AI and a character that he actually gives a damn about is very interesting. Orbot and Cubot are rubbish characters, whilst Metal Sonic is barely a character. Sage is an idea that sounds great on paper. But right now, the supposed development and relationship just doesn't exist. 

You're absolutely not alone, you just put my thoughts into your own words. I have my own two cents on the overall story of Frontiers (it's fine, but not engaging enough imo) but Sage and her dynamic with Eggman were the weakest aspects in my opinion. It felt like something off of a "deep story checklist" and not out of something out of passion, in my opinion. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

A new dimension to a character should tie into our pre-established understanding of them and be developed properly to feel organic. Eggman secretly just wanting a kid this whole time is neither of those things. It's cool for the people who just want to make cute AUs, I guess, but for me it just makes his character less interesting.

Eh, it's a bit reductive to just reduce the narrative to Eggman wanting a kid. In reality, it was a development over time, that went from Eggman being some puzzled by Sage's new state, to growing a sense of appreciation of that. From there, more feelings rose and it grew to a sense of affection.

Sage's development somewhat reflects those changes as well as the plot goes by.

Now, while a lot of fans are interested in seeing where things go from there, the narrative itself in Frontiers is what sparked that interest, in seeing an Eggman that, while evil, in some ways now, does have something to lose rather than just another comedic loss at his defeat.

[The Deleter]

7 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think it's a bit inaccurate to claim that nobody was expecting that there could be other elements in Eggman's brand of affection for Sage. This revelation from Ian doesn't necessarily clash with it either.

It's a bit inaccurate to claim that I am claiming nobody was expecting other elements to Eggman and Sage's relationship. We already know about the Egg memos and him boosting his ego with it. I said baseline.

Point me to a single piece of fan art or forum post that leans into/argues that toxic pride and bastardization of fatherhood as the primary premise of their relationship rather than 

33 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

leaning more into unconditional love

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

It's a bit inaccurate to claim that I am claiming nobody was expecting other elements to Eggman and Sage's relationship. We already know about the Egg memos and him boosting his ego with it. I said baseline.

Point me to a single piece of fan art or forum post that leans into/argues that toxic pride and bastardization of fatherhood as the primary premise of their relationship rather than 

Except that's not what I was suggesting otherwise. Your syntax suggests that no one was considering it could lean toward something other than conditional love. Not necessarily in the direction of the more specific bit you just put there, so I don't really have anything to share with you on that angle.

Although, the prospects of him bringing back Sage in a twisted manner, were raised in response to a previous Bumblekast, specifically the one where Ian expressed why it might not be that Sage would come back as a good guy.

That being said, the idea that there could be a sinister bit to Eggman's relationship with Sage was never really discarded to the point where this video has supposedly thrown everyone in the thread for a loop as you think it might.

[Cooldude]

27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

A new dimension to a character should tie into our pre-established understanding of them and be developed properly to feel organic. Eggman secretly just wanting a kid this whole time is neither of those things. It's cool for the people who just want to make cute AUs, I guess, but for me it just makes his character less interesting.

Its not a matter of it feeling "organic", I think it might just comes down to you not liking the idea that Eggman cares for someone other than himself. And that's ok. Fans have different preferences. That's perfectly fine. 

I happen to like the idea we get to see a different side Eggman. Like I said, to each his own.

25 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

At an absolute best, the most you can see if the very beginnings of a relationship. And honestly I think I'm being charitable in saying that. Even if you include the memos, Eggman and Sage don't get nearly enough screen time for a relationship to be established. 

Again, it comes down to how you read into the dialogue and scenes. 

There really isn't much to added to this debate to honest. You insist a relationship does not exist. I think it does. You likely also think a Eggman-Sage father-daughter relationship is not what you want to see, because that might somehow take away your idea of Eggman as a baddie who only cares about himself. You are perfectly entitled to that view of course. But I just happen to think differently, to see a different side to Eggman than the usual boring evil-doer. 

Bottom line, there really is not much else to be added on this particular debate, since we'll likely be talking over each other than at each other.

I think it will be much more productive if we ponder what diagloue and scenes can be made and improved, if Sage indeed does reappear in the future, to build on their father-daughter relationship on a more convincing or solid foundation. 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[The Deleter]

18 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Except that's not what I was suggesting otherwise. Your syntax suggests that no one was considering it could lean toward something other than conditional love

The 'syntax' only offered two options of assumptions.

Quote

... threw me for a loop, as just like everyone in this thread, I assumed the relationship was leaning more into unconditional love (as the true baseline for their relationship), rather than affirmation for his own ego as the true baseline.

It was one or the other. We've seen the first option, I want to see evidence for the second, or any other for my statement to be "inaccurate"

This isn't about Sage coming back, this is about Eggman's cutscenes in Frontiers and the impressions it left the viewers with the baseline for his relationship with Sage. You quoted me on inaccuracy; I want to see evidence that everyone's assumption was not built around unconditional love as the baseline in unison with my assumption.

If there are I will be truly surprised

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

This isn't about Sage coming back, this is about Eggman's cutscenes in Frontiers and the impressions it left the viewers with the baseline for his relationship with Sage. You quoted me on inaccuracy; I want to see evidence that everyone's assumption was not built around unconditional love as the baseline in unison with my assumption.

Honestly, I feel like such a debate is going to come down to your perception of things. To which, I think that trying to convince you would be futile in that regard as you seem quite set in your way of thinking there.

Though, this bit does seem a bit off topic from what the thread was about. Therein, whether or not Sage should become a mainstay, and I really don't want to drag it any further off topic than it's already gone.

[The Deleter]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Honestly, I feel like such a debate is going to come down to your perception of things. To which, I think that trying to convince you would be futile in that regard as you seem quite set in your way of thinking there.

I'm one of the people on the forum who sits and thinks about posts and considers/re-evaluates my stance after the fact, to the degree my own life has outright changed course as a result of conversations I've had. Don't hide behind that.

That said, yes, it is off topic. My post was quoted for inaccuracy and I asked for evidence; my fault.

[Blue Blood]

25 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

 

Again, it comes down to how you read into the dialogue and scenes. 

There really isn't much to added to this debate to honest. You insist a relationship does not exist. I think it does. You likely also think a Eggman-Sage father-daughter relationship is not what you want to see, because that might somehow take away your idea of Eggman as a baddie who only cares about himself. You are perfectly entitled to that view of course. But I just happen to think differently, to see a different side to Eggman than the usual boring evil-doer. 

Bottom line, there really is not much else to be added on this particular debate, since we'll likely be talking over each other than at each other.

I think it will be much more productive if we ponder what diagloue and scenes can be made and improved, if Sage indeed does reappear in the future, to build on their father-daughter relationshp on a more convincing or solid foundation. 

No, no, no. You can't say "it's all down to interpretation", and then follow it up by saying that there's nothing more to add. I gave you examples; now it's your turn. Don't just back away. 

And don't try to dismiss me say with a bullshit assumption about what you think I "likely also think". 

[Cooldude]

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

You can't say "it's all down to interpretation", and then follow it up by saying that there's nothing more to add. I gave you examples; now it's your turn. 

And don't try to dismiss me say with a bullshit assumption about what you think I "likely also think". 

There really isn't much to be added. I mean, you will insist on your point despite what I will say and I will insist on my point as valid. I've seen this a thousand times on an internet forum. It always end that way. Let's not go there, shall we?

Like I said, its better to focus on what could be fixed. Clearly the dialogue and scenes could be improved between Eggman and Sage, since its not quite working for you and Wraith. What do you want to see to convince you of a relationship between them?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

 

 What do you want to see to convince you of a relationship between them?

I don't want "a relationship between them" to foster because I don't think it suits his character. Broadly speaking, Sonic characters need to be more flawed than they currently are to have any chance of building interesting stories around them, not less. 

 

Besides, I think it's silly to hinge your emotional climax on a character's sacrifice only to bring them back in the next game anyway. It wasn't cute the first time they did it and it wouldn't be much better here. 

 

 

[The Deleter]

Frontiers has already come and gone, so if there were any changes to discuss, they would be more theoretical re-writes to get a better foundation. If we're talking about the future, the only thing they can do is allude to the dynamics of the relationship through dialog patch-up-work after the fact, kinda like Tails in Frontiers. That moreso pretends it's always been there, though, so it still doesn't really fix that absence, only portrays its nature at a higher res later on while pretending it was always there.

It's a cool topic to discuss for the future treatment, but doesn't really do a lot for the game and its story itself. Moreso how to fix it for later games.

[Cooldude]

11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't want "a relationship between them" to foster because I don't think it suits his character. Broadly speaking, Sonic characters need to be more flawed than they currently are to have any chance of building interesting stories around them, not less. 

Besides, I think it's silly to hinge your emotional climax on a character's sacrifice only to bring them back in the next game anyway. It wasn't cute the first time they did it and it wouldn't be much better here. 

Exactly, you don't like the whole idea of a father-daughter relationship between Sage and Eggman to begin with. I happen to like it because it raises interesting story dynamics for Eggman and Sage. Which means nothing I say will convince you otherwise. And nothing you say will convince me that relationship is a bad idea.

That was what I was getting at. I don't want to get dragged into a debate about whether there is a relationship between them that is properly established in the game, because nothing I say will satisfy you if don't like the idea. We simply can't see eye-to-eye on this, nothing more to be added.

8 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Frontiers has already come and gone, so if there were any changes to discuss, they would be more theoretical re-writes to get a better foundation. If we're talking about the future, the only thing they can do is allude to the dynamics of the relationship through dialog patch-up-work after the fact, kinda like Tails in Frontiers. That moreso pretends it's always been there, though, so it still doesn't really fix that absence, only portrays its nature at a higher res later on while pretending it was always there.

It's a cool topic to discuss for the future treatment, but doesn't really do a lot for the game and its story itself. Moreso how to fix it for later games.

The Frontiers story is actually good overall. Certainly MUCH better than some other stories in certain Sonic games (Remember Sonic 06 and that horrid Sonic and Elise romance, or that "kiss")? 

When it comes down to it, it just boils down to some not liking the idea of a Eggman-Sage father/daughter relationship. That's fine, but a rather subjective take, because there are also many fans who like that relationship. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Cooldude said:

 

That was what I was getting at. I don't want to get dragged into a debate about whether there a relationship between them that is properly established in the game, because nothing I say will satisfy you if don't like the idea. We simply can't see eye-to-eye on this, nothing more to be added.

You could still make the case that it was established in the game, if you had the evidence. That doesn't have anything to do with me not liking the idea. 

 

The reality is that there's almost no groundwork in the text, so there's no way to argue that position. Even the people who like this game admit that the writing fell flat here. Might as well own it instead of trying to wiggle out of by saying 'its subjective, I guess there's no point' over and over again. 

But that's okay, keep portraying people as close minded all the way up to the next time Sonic Team sells another half finished script instead of holding them accountable, that'll fix it lol

[The Deleter]

10 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

The Frontiers story is actually good overall. Certainly MUCH better than some other stories in certain Sonic games (Remember Sonic 06 and that horrid Sonic and Elise romance, or that "kiss")? 

When it comes down to it, it just boils down to some not liking the idea of a Eggman-Sage father/daughter relationship. That's fine, but a rather subjective take, because there are also fans who like that relationship. 

Oh for sure; never said it wasn't. However it should be emphasized that the bar is veeeeery low for Sonic stories, so even when we get something with Frontiers, there's a lot to improve imo.

I can vibe with SAGE's storyline and Eggman's relationship with her, even divorced from my own feelings about how the franchise "should" be, but like I said earlier, it kind of demands me to be of two minds, where I'm either considering the ideas and intentions behind the story, or the actual execution that people are more likely to look to for value, including myself off-and-on. As a result SAGE and Eggman are a cool "thought" to stumble on, given the framework, but also has a lot that needs to be said past that imo. The execution itself determines just how many people can become attached to the idea to begin with, and as a result is much more crucial than the thought more often than not.

[Cooldude]

14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You could still make the case that it was established in the game, if you had the evidence. That doesn't have anything to do with me not liking the idea. 

 

It doesn't matter if I do, you still won't be convined no matter what I say. Because your starting point is that you don't like the relationship. So nothing I say will convince you otherwise. Believe me, its not being closed mind, its just the nature of the internet. I've seen this kind of debate a thousand times, it never gets resolved. Everyone likes to pretend they are non-biased and want to give the other side a fair hearing. Yada yada yada. Come on, this ain't my first time on an internet forum. 

There is no point saying who and who should be held accountable...because if you don't like the idea in the first place...you really won't find any relationship dialogue that will be to your liking, right?

12 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Oh for sure; never said it wasn't. However it should be emphasized that the bar is veeeeery low for Sonic stories, so even when we get something with Frontiers, there's a lot to improve imo.

I can vibe with SAGE's storyline and Eggman's relationship with her, even divorced from my own feelings about how the franchise "should" be, but like I said earlier, it kind of demands me to be of two minds, where I'm either considering the ideas and intentions behind the story, or the actual execution that people are more likely to look to for value, including myself off-and-on. As a result SAGE and Eggman are a cool "thought" to stumble on, given the framework, but also has a lot that needs to be said past that imo. The execution itself determines just how many people can become attached to the idea to begin with, and as a result is much more crucial than the thought more often than not.

Yeah, storytelling has never been a strong point in Sonic games. Frontiers actually stood out for having at least a half-decent story. Issues with the father-daughter relationship can be better fleshed out I think. I said before Sage is not perfect in the way she is portrayed and hopefully Ian or some other writer who get a crack at the story in the future can improve on her characterization. 

But the fact that Sage seems to enjoy a lot of overall positive fan reception means the writers at least have established a new character that fans are willing to invest in. That's a good start. Now they need better dialogue and scenes for Sage. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[The Deleter]

25 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

Yeah, storytelling has never been a strong point in Sonic games. Frontiers actually stood out for having at least a half-decent story. Issues with the father-daughter relationship can be better fleshed out I think. I said before Sage is not perfect in the way she is portrayed and hopefully Ian or some other writer who get a crack at the story in the future can improve on her characterization. 

But the fact that Sage seems to enjoy a lot of overall positive fan reception means the writers at least have established a new character that fans are willing to invest in. That's a good start. Now they need better dialogue and scenes for Sage. 

I can agree with those hopes, except for the fan demand determining it. I know it comes off as weird, but the last example we had of a cult following for a character was Infinite, and as an arguably unsalvageable character imo, it'd probably be best for the series to... not... cater to that demand to say the least lol. You can't control the ideas that fandoms are attracted to, but it also doesn't mean you should cede to their requests 100% of the time.

SAGE is definitely nowhere near as bad as Infinite, but the lack of what could be considered a "good" foundation, even if it varies from person to person, hurts her a lot more than it helps.

If another writer comes along and fails to follow up that character with better writing, or possibly even worse that actively hurts the characters, then that will be on the writer themselves, but also a fault of what was established beforehand. Mostly because it wasn't doing its due diligence in ensuring the character it's handing off to the next self-contained project already has the best foundation, both in terms of quality to reach to meet the same bar as before, and structure that is easy to work with.

Ian's probably coming back for the next game, so it's largely a minor worry for now, but the uncertainty is still there, and I really don't like it lmao. I really hope the DLC ends the game off with a much less open-ended situation than we have here, at the very least.

[Cooldude]

19 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

I can agree with those hopes, except for the fan demand determining it. I know it comes off as weird, but the last example we had of a cult following for a character was Infinite, and as an arguably unsalvageable character imo, it'd probably be best for the series to... not... cater to that demand to say the least lol. You can't control the ideas that fandoms are attracted to, but it also doesn't mean you should cede to their requests 100% of the time.

SAGE is definitely nowhere near as bad as Infinite, but the lack of what could be considered a "good" foundation, even if it varies from person to person, hurts her a lot more than it helps.

If another writer comes along and fails to follow up that character with better writing, or possibly even worse that actively hurts the characters, then that will be on the writer themselves, but also a fault of what was established beforehand. Mostly because it wasn't doing its due diligence in ensuring the character it's handing off to the next self-contained project already has the best foundation, both in terms of quality to reach to meet the same bar as before, and structure that is easy to work with.

Ian's probably coming back for the next game, so it's largely a minor worry for now, but the uncertainty is still there, and I really don't like it lmao. I really hope the DLC ends the game off with a much less open-ended situation than we have here, at the very least.

Well, like it or not, fan reception does contribute to game sales, so Sega, like any other game company, looks at the bottom line.

When you mention Forces and Infinite...I don't think Infinite has anywhere near the broad level of positive fan reception that Sage has been enjoying. I mean, you called it a "cult", so it isn't really a majority of fans liking Infinite as a character. And as a character Infinite is nowhere as well developed as Sage. At the end of the day, Infinite was just another baddie to be beaten, a ruthless mercenery. And Forces' storyline overall is way inferior to Frontiers.

When you say Sage has a bad foundation....not really in my opinion. Yes, its not perfect and  her dialogue and scenes could be improved. But it is not actually that terrible what we got so far. Sage grows as Frontiers goes along, becoming aware of love by observing Sonic and Tails. You don't get that with Infinite. He's just another bad guy from the beginning to end. There is promise and potential in Sage as a character that Infinite simply does not possess. 

The ending to Frontiers is good I find because it raises a lot of interesting questions and story potential about Sage. Now Ian or whoever that is assigned to write the follow-up story could mess up and butchered Sage as a character. But it just as possible they can improve on Frontiers and fill in its weaknesses.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[The Deleter]

22 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

When you mention Forces and Infinite...I don't think Infinite has anywhere near the broad level of positive fan reception that Sage has been enjoying. I mean, you called it a "cult", so it isn't really a majority of fans liking Infinite as a character. And as a character Infinite is nowhere as well developed as Sage. At the end of the day, Infinite was just another baddie to be beaten, a ruthless mercenery.

When you say Sage has a bad foundation....not really in my opinion. Yes, its not perfect and  her dialogue and scenes could be improved. But is not actually that terrible what we got so far. Sage grows as Frontiers goes along, becoming aware of love by observing Sonic and Tails. You don't get that with Infinite. He's just another bad guy from the beginning to end. There is promise and potential in Sage as a character that Infinite simply does not possess. 

You'd be surprised. I'm honestly shocked at how many there are, all things considered.

When it comes to Sage's foundation, it kind of comes back to Blue Blood's points about the foundation being weak in Frontiers, so I don't think you'd agree with it, but things like... well, that character development apparently disappearing per her explosion in space, means that her new direction is basically free to go any which way in the follow ups, like Shadow and how directionless he was to the point that's his whole gimmick for his own game. Then there's her relationship with Eggman, which has the problems we've been talking about in how well its being conveyed in the game itself. Again, it will probably be fixed by the end of the DLC, and be immediately outdated, but we're basically relying on that for the time being.

Sage definitely has multiple flavors of potential, all contained in different paths she could take, but we still don't know how well that potential can actually work yet. For this game on its own, there's a reason I'm highlighting fan demand, though, but that's another matter

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Well, like it or not, fan reception does contribute to game sales, so Sega, like any other game company, looks at the bottom line.

This is also correct, though I might add in a way almost depressingly so, thinking on certain series sales and outcomes in leu of that. Most people don't generally have to worry about it though so idk