Should Sage become a permanent mainstay?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Cooldude said:

You are describing pseudo-horrific storylines. I am talking about dark tragic storyline, they are not the same thing. What works in the comics doesn't always work in the games and vice versa.

If they can pull pseudo-horrific storys, they can pull dark tragic stories--they don't have to be the same thing, they're both tonally on the far end of what you'd expect done in Sonic. Either way, Sega's no stranger to either one with Sonic.

We're talking a medium that's far more flexible than Comics and Movies that has various adaptations all around, so you'd be surprised what could work in the games.

7 hours ago, Cooldude said:

I maintain Sega will not contemplate killing off Sage if they are more than likely to being her back. So not much point dwelling on a purely hypothetical scenario.

Sage herself was a hypothetical scenario of "What if Eggman had a daughter" until Sega went ahead and did just that in the games when only the cartoons and comics were the ones to explore this. It's not going to hurt imagining other hypotheticals of what they'll do with her, whether they come true or not.

[Cooldude]

 

33 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

You'd be surprised. I'm honestly shocked at how many there are, all things considered.

When it comes to Sage's foundation, it kind of comes back to Blue Blood's points about the foundation being weak in Frontiers, so I don't think you'd agree with it, but things like... well, that character development apparently disappearing per her explosion in space, means that her new direction is basically free to go any which way in the follow ups, like Shadow and how directionless he was to the point that's his whole gimmick for his own game. Then there's her relationship with Eggman, which has the problems we've been talking about in how well its being conveyed in the game itself. Again, it will probably be fixed by the end of the DLC, and be immediately outdated, but we're basically relying on that for the time being.

Sage definitely has multiple flavors of potential, all contained in different paths she could take, but we still don't know how well that potential can actually work yet. For this game on its own, there's a reason I'm highlighting fan demand, though, but that's another matter

This is also correct, though I might add in a way almost depressingly so, thinking on certain series sales and outcomes in leu of that. Most people don't generally have to worry about it though so idk

Well, the Eggman-Sage scenes should be worked on as I already mentioned if they want to better establish the father-daughter dynamic. Who knows, maybe Wraith and Bluebluehood are right, that might not be the way to go, epecially if they butcher the subsequent follow-up story. But for now, I am very intrigued at the possibilities that Frontiers opened up to new stories in the future. Because of Sage's ambiguity, that  can lead to many different and fascinating stories. At the very least, Sage sure as heck is much better than Infinite...for now. 

As for fan demand, it can be good or bad, it really depends on the particular context we are dealing with. Nor is it necessarily something new. Before video games we have had such fans. Arther Conan Doyle got tired of Sherlock Holmes and killed him off, only to bring him back because fans wanted to read more detective stories featuring him. And getting back to Sonic, there was of course Shadow, who originally was supposed to be a one-off in SA2, but was brought back due to fan demand...and that didn't seem to hurt the later stories (arguably). 

31 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

If they can pull pseudo-horrific storys, they can pull dark tragic stories--they don't have to be the same thing, they're both on the far end of what you'd expect done in Sonic. Either way, Sega's no stranger to either one with Sonic.

We're talking a medium that's far more flexible than Comics and Movies that has various adaptations all around, so you'd be surprised what could work in the games.

Sage herself was a hypothetical scenario of "What if Eggman had a daughter" until Sega went ahead and did just that in the games when only the cartoons and comics were the ones to explore this. It's not going to hurt imagining other hypotheticals of what they'll do with her, whether they come true or not.

Stranger...hehe, more like strange stories. Reminds me of how Sega always had this "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach to gameplay and storytelling. Sometimes you just get the feeling their stories just aren't well thought out in the games. I mean Sonic 06...I don't know if fans consider that to be the absolute nadir in storytelling for Sonic games, but Sonic and Elise...ugh. For me personally, it made me moved away from Sonic world for a long while. Which was why I am so surprised that Frontiers actually had a decent story and the character of Sage...at least has more potential than past  characters. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

34 minutes ago, Cooldude said:

Stranger...hehe, more like strange stories. Reminds me of how Sega always had this "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach to gameplay and storytelling. Sometimes you just get the feeling their stories just aren't well thought out in the games. I mean Sonic 06...I don't know if fans consider that to be the absolute nadir in storytelling for Sonic games, but Sonic and Elise...ugh. For me personally, it made me moved away from Sonic world for a long while. Which was why I am so surprised that Frontiers actually had a decent story and the character of Sage...at least has more potential than past  characters. 

To be frank, Sonic 06's problems were more with organization and logic. There's definitely worse out there than Sonic and Elise (and I'm pretty sure everyone else has seen worse too)--that element was less the problem than the entire structure they had for the whole game, cuz damn I bet someone else could have taken that same story and actually made it work better than whoever they had writing the script and scenarios.

As decent as Frontiers was, it was mostly inoffensive and seeking to fix inconsistencies...I wasn't really moved by Sage than I was interested in see where she might be taken, because any character can have potential if you give them the right opportunity. Even Cream the Rabbit.

[Cooldude]

59 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

To be frank, Sonic 06's problems were more with organization and logic. There's definitely worse out there than Sonic and Elise (and I'm pretty sure everyone else has seen worse too)--that element was less the problem than the entire structure they had for the whole game, cuz damn I bet someone else could have taken that same story and actually made it work better than whoever they had writing the script and scenarios.

As decent as Frontiers was, it was mostly inoffensive and seeking to fix inconsistencies...I wasn't really moved by Sage than I was interested in see where she might be taken, because any character can have potential if you give them the right opportunity. Even Cream the Rabbit.

There were issues with the gameplay but the subpar story certainly was a problem as well. It felt like Sonic O6 was trying to copy...Final Fantasy, but it didn't work at all for me. I doubt simply getting a different director would fix those issues. Other worse stories? Sure, but Sonic 06 ranks fairly close to the bottom for me. Its fine you aren't moved by Sage. I was moved  by her, as did others, that's what matters to each of us. The important thing right now is there are open possibilities for Sage, if Ian or whoever writes good follow-up stories (assuming Sega allows that, never underestimate the ability of Sega to self-sabotage a good idea, given their record). 

Getting back to Sonic killing Sage hypothetical, sure, any speculation is possible. I just struggled to see the point in that. What does that serve story-wise? It reminded me when they killed off Hans Solo in the The Force Awakens. There was no point in killing him off, and the new characters like Rey just isn't appealing at all. Its like it just happened and the story could have gone just fine if he was still alive. Not only is that a massive disrespect to the Solo character, its also an insult to long-time fans. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cooldude

[Iko]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic characters need to be more flawed than they currently are to have any chance of building interesting stories around them, not less.

The whole "characters need to be flawed!!1!" thing people wouldn't shut up years ago on the Sega Forums and on Internet in general is what lead the series to the "Meta Era", Sonic having the "flaw" of talking with destroyed robots and not being able to save Tails, Tails being an arrogant brat and a coward, etc. So... strong disagree here, characters need to be themselves and to be relatable, not flawed for the sake of cartoon comedy and plot twists (or whatever).

Regarding Eggman and Sage, it's not that Eggman wanted a daughter this whole time, it's something else.

Eggman wanted the world to care for him, he wanted to be at the center of all attentions... even in the logs he says that he was jealous that when Maria was alive, everyone cared about her and nobody cared of him. Eggman debatably sees Sage as a "daughter" not because she's his own creation, the other way actually. Sage was just a piece of code, and it "evolved" into the character we know in a spontaneous way, the moment "she" was downloaded into the cyberspace. It was out of his control the fact that she turned into a girl-like thing, and gained a personality with emotions.

Despite all this, despite Sage being partially something that was not completely created by him, she is still loyal to Eggman, she respects, loves and supports Eggman no matter what, and wants to be a family with him and his other creations. Eggman tried to attract the attentions of the world to him, with Eggmanland, by blowing up the moon, with brainwash/mind-control, etc. but he always failed, people just hated him instead... now finally he found someone who respects him and gives him all the attentions... and not because of being programmed to do so.

Sage is basically what he was trying to obtain since Sonic 1 from Genesis, she's someone truly loyal to him, that's what makes her special compared to Orbot and Cubot, or Metal Sonic.

[Sonicka]

Do I think Eggman & Sage father/daughter evolving relationship elements are in the game enough to justify it going there? Yes. 100% with conviction.

(NB: I apologise if this post goes a bit all over the place)

This familial idea is seeded throughout the entirety of the game, perhaps subtlety (clearly too subtlety if it wasn’t picked up on by some). But I do agree that it could have been worked into the the main crux of the narrative a bit better. However I think that’s more the fault of the optional character interactions around the open-zone and the egg-memos, the latter of which should be rewarded/unlocked at certain points of the game, not available straight away (I only purchased a few of these at a time every island however, so it felt progressive to me, but not everyone will do this).

So, at the beginning of Frontiers SAGE is unintentionally “evolved” beyond a simple instructive AI when Eggman uploads her into cyberspqce. She then instinctively saves Eggman multiple times - she brings him into Cyberspace so he won’t die from an oncoming calamity, she saves him from the multiple threats within cyberspace as well… but she views this initially from a logical “he is my master, I am his creation therefore I serve” basis. 

Throughout her meets (and stalking) of Sonic and his gang during the game, she gains new insight and emotional understanding of the concepts of family which were initially alien to her. This is why she starts to (like a child) try and apply these traits and ideas to Eggman (and Cubot & Orbot) during the cutscenes. This takes Eggman aback at first but we see him clinically start to analyse SAGE as something more than his initial creation in the egg memos. I think this is also why some foundational background and references are applied for him to sombrely about his grandfather / Maria in the Eggmemo’s, and this further drums up that emotional context for him by the end of the memos when he starts to refer to her as a “daughter”.

Then you have the Final Fantasy XI “Lalalalala” theme during Chaos Island. Narratively this is past a midpoint of the game that cements her understanding of such emotional concepts. It’s fumbled for sure… but it is there to exemplify a change in SAGE after watching Sonic and Tails. This short sequence of flashbacks (whilst short) still demonstrate that Eggman is more important to her other than simply being her creator, she now understands why she wants to protect him other than her base programming instructing her to do so. 

And by the time we get to her finally convincing Eggman to help sonic at the end of Rhea / beginning of Ouranos Island they’ve already had multiple “spats” as she has been deliberately disobeying him to save his life. Her final plea persuades him into letting Sonic temporarily “join the team” as such as much as Eggman is against the idea. But this isn’t anything new, Sonic and Eggman have teamed up for other events before - so this particular concept isn’t alien to Eggman. 

What is alien is that it wasn’t his idea, it was hers. Eggman at this point in frontiers values her enough as his equal, and I think that’s what’s mostly important here. When she goes off to fight with Sonic he’s essentially sending off someone/thing of value to him, you could argue that he sees SAGE as a product of his genius and an AI that is potentially never coming back, but he has started doing what SAGE was doing (applying the familial traits), so IMO it’s pretty set in stone where it’s going (and the secret ending cutscene pretty much solidifies this).

Both SAGE and Eggman are emotionally stunted characters (both by design and due to their nature), but the end of the  Frontiers poses that potentially there is something more to mine into and I’d like to see this explored in Frontiers 2.

This doesn’t have to change Eggman’s basic premise as a character, but it does give him more grey areas and vulnerabilities which in my opinion is faaaar more interesting and hasn’t been seen since SA2. He’s been very enjoyable all the same in each game, but Eggman is still a one note villain, SAGE now gives potential for him to evolve beyond his remit (much like herself during the game) - and I kinda believe that’s what they were aiming for. 

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, Iko said:

The whole "characters need to be flawed!!1!" thing people wouldn't shut up years ago on the Sega Forums and on Internet in general is what lead the series to the "Meta Era", Sonic having the "flaw" of talking with destroyed robots and not being able to save Tails, Tails being an arrogant brat and a coward, etc. So... strong disagree here, characters need to be themselves and to be relatable, not flawed for the sake of cartoon comedy and plot twists (or whatever).

 

Character flaws and the arcs surrounding them are literally what make a character interesting to begin with and I can't believe that even needs to be said.

Y'all Sonic fans are so traumatized about what other people have said that you forgot how basic storytelling even works.

[Blue Blood]

4 hours ago, Iko said:

The whole "characters need to be flawed!!1!" thing people wouldn't shut up years ago on the Sega Forums and on Internet in general is what lead the series to the "Meta Era", Sonic having the "flaw" of talking with destroyed robots and not being able to save Tails, Tails being an arrogant brat and a coward, etc. So... strong disagree here, characters need to be themselves and to be relatable, not flawed for the sake of cartoon comedy and plot twists (or whatever).

I can't quite tell if you're strawmanning the entire argument, or if you've genuinely and completely misunderstood what it means to be a flawed character. 

[Wraith]

I wasn't even going to respond to that. Discussing Sonic is just constantly having to deal with PTSD from completely unrelated arguments. Want the games to use visuals over dialogue more? You must be a classic purist! Want characters to have flaws? You must want to take us back to the pontaff age! etc. Nothing to do but ignore it. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 hours ago, Sonicka said:

Do I think Eggman & Sage father/daughter evolving relationship elements are in the game enough to justify it going there? Yes. 100% with conviction.

(NB: I apologise if this post goes a bit all over the place)

This familial idea is seeded throughout the entirety of the game, perhaps subtlety (clearly too subtlety if it wasn’t picked up on by some). But I do agree that it could have been worked into the the main crux of the narrative a bit better. However I think that’s more the fault of the optional character interactions around the open-zone and the egg-memos, the latter of which should be rewarded/unlocked at certain points of the game, not available straight away (I only purchased a few of these at a time every island however, so it felt progressive to me, but not everyone will do this).

So, at the beginning of Frontiers SAGE is unintentionally “evolved” beyond a simple instructive AI when Eggman uploads her into cyberspqce. She then instinctively saves Eggman multiple times - she brings him into Cyberspace so he won’t die from an oncoming calamity, she saves him from the multiple threats within cyberspace as well… but she views this initially from a logical “he is my master, I am his creation therefore I serve” basis. 

Throughout her meets (and stalking) of Sonic and his gang during the game, she gains new insight and emotional understanding of the concepts of family which were initially alien to her. This is why she starts to (like a child) try and apply these traits and ideas to Eggman (and Cubot & Orbot) during the cutscenes. This takes Eggman aback at first but we see him clinically start to analyse SAGE as something more than his initial creation in the egg memos. I think this is also why some foundational background and references are applied for him to sombrely about his grandfather / Maria in the Eggmemo’s, and this further drums up that emotional context for him by the end of the memos when he starts to refer to her as a “daughter”.

Then you have the Final Fantasy XI “Lalalalala” theme during Chaos Island. Narratively this is past a midpoint of the game that cements her understanding of such emotional concepts. It’s fumbled for sure… but it is there to exemplify a change in SAGE after watching Sonic and Tails. This short sequence of flashbacks (whilst short) still demonstrate that Eggman is more important to her other than simply being her creator, she now understands why she wants to protect him other than her base programming instructing her to do so. 

And by the time we get to her finally convincing Eggman to help sonic at the end of Rhea / beginning of Ouranos Island they’ve already had multiple “spats” as she has been deliberately disobeying him to save his life. Her final plea persuades him into letting Sonic temporarily “join the team” as such as much as Eggman is against the idea. But this isn’t anything new, Sonic and Eggman have teamed up for other events before - so this particular concept isn’t alien to Eggman. 

What is alien is that it wasn’t his idea, it was hers. Eggman at this point in frontiers values her enough as his equal, and I think that’s what’s mostly important here. When she goes off to fight with Sonic he’s essentially sending off someone/thing of value to him, you could argue that he sees SAGE as a product of his genius and an AI that is potentially never coming back, but he has started doing what SAGE was doing (applying the familial traits), so IMO it’s pretty set in stone where it’s going (and the secret ending cutscene pretty much solidifies this).

Both SAGE and Eggman are emotionally stunted characters (both by design and due to their nature), but the end of the  Frontiers poses that potentially there is something more to mine into and I’d like to see this explored in Frontiers 2.

This doesn’t have to change Eggman’s basic premise as a character, but it does give him more grey areas and vulnerabilities which in my opinion is faaaar more interesting and hasn’t been seen since SA2. He’s been very enjoyable all the same in each game, but Eggman is still a one note villain, SAGE now gives potential for him to evolve beyond his remit (much like herself during the game) - and I kinda believe that’s what they were aiming for. 

To add on to that, Sage's development is an interesting one that tows the line of influence, from both the likes of Sonic's and Eggman's respective sides.

In most cases, this would just lead to a straight on redemption point, but a lot of what's been suggested by Ian, points towards the idea that we'll get to see a case of that where the subject matter, Sage, remains aligned with the villain faction. 

Which is a pretty interesting prospect to see what that means for the whole schematic of the series with such a recurring character. 

[Iko]

41 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Character flaws and the arcs surrounding them are literally what make a character interesting to begin with and I can't believe that even needs to be said.

Y'all Sonic fans are so traumatized about what other people have said that you forgot how basic storytelling even works.

I know how storytelling works, I'm just sick of people asking for the characters to have more flaws as if it would solve every problem of bad writing we had in the series; especially when every attempt to add more flaws to an existing character in the past (and present, look at Shadow) turned into the fanbase of said character raging about it.

Also the discussion is way too toxic for my tastes, time to leave the thread for a while.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Iko said:

I know how storytelling works, I'm just sick of people asking for the characters to have more flaws as if it would solve every problem of bad writing we had in the series;

Literally nobody said this.

You're misreading what's being said due to an unrelated argument you had and then getting upset about it.

[Strickerx5]

Been a long day and am late on this but some cleaning was done in here. Great to see you guys have largely moved on from it but just wanted to put the warning out there.

Either debate the points people are actually making or don't post. Any more directed jabs or inflammatory posts are just going to be met with suspensions at this point.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

18 hours ago, Cooldude said:

There were issues with the gameplay but the subpar story certainly was a problem as well. It felt like Sonic O6 was trying to copy...Final Fantasy, but it didn't work at all for me. I doubt simply getting a different director would fix those issues.

Sonic 06 was more trying to recapture SA1 than it was Final Fantasy. Only with fire instead of water. And it could've worked if they weren't too focused on being complex for the sake of being complex.

18 hours ago, Cooldude said:

Getting back to Sonic killing Sage hypothetical, sure, any speculation is possible. I just struggled to see the point in that. What does that serve story-wise? It reminded me when they killed off Hans Solo in the The Force Awakens. There was no point in killing him off, and the new characters like Rey just isn't appealing at all. Its like it just happened and the story could have gone just fine if he was still alive. Not only is that a massive disrespect to the Solo character, its also an insult to long-time fans. 

Depends on what story you make around it, and ideally there should be a point to it. (I honestly feel that goes without saying, but I'm familiar with misinterpreting ideas in ways that aren't satisfying as intended)

Not saying they should go ahead and do that--that would actually be more of a waste of a character--but that any idea can work if you put decent effort into selling it. The type of tragedy that would follow from such an idea isn't unheard of, but you can't just do it just because you can, a la The Force Awakens.

[StaticMania]

16 hours ago, Iko said:

The whole "characters need to be flawed!!1!" thing people wouldn't shut up years ago on the Sega Forums and on Internet in general is what lead the series to the "Meta Era", Sonic having the "flaw" of talking with destroyed robots and not being able to save Tails, Tails being an arrogant brat and a coward, etc. So... strong disagree here, characters need to be themselves and to be relatable, not flawed for the sake of cartoon comedy and plot twists (or whatever).

This is kind of a nonsense leap in logic...

What lead to these type of stories is the fact that Sega scaled back both the cast and the stakes, the stories had no real choice but to focus directly on the characters involved how their action affected the plot and not some outer conflict that they just happened to take part in dealing with.

Sonic Forces brought back all the characters then tried to give both Tails and the Avatar an arc but couldn't really make that work. The avatar went through an extremely basic journey and Tails' arc gets a rushed conclusion because Sonic games don't really have enough cutscenes to give things focus.

The characters don't need flaws for the sake of it, but in order for the story to be "about" them...they need something that actually allows them to establish presence besides just existing. It's stuff like this that caused Sonic to not have much importance in most of the stories in the 2000's outside of the fact that he fought the main antagonist.

---

This is why Sonic needs rivals.

[Iko]

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

What lead to these type of stories is the fact that Sega scaled back both the cast and the stakes, the stories had no real choice but to focus directly on the characters involved how their action affected the plot and not some outer conflict that they just happened to take part in dealing with.

I'm not talking about the stories here, just specifically of the characters. Those games (more specifically Colors and Lost World, but I guess it had effect on Forces as well), were written in a time when people liked to rate the quality of a character depending on the amount of flaws they had, and called "Mary Sue" (or "Gary Stu", meaning a character who's so perfect and flawless that's uninteresting) the characters they didn't like, no matter if it made sense or not, at some point the word was used as a sort of insult for disliked characters without any meaning.

Saying that the relationship between Sage and Eggman makes Eggman somewhat "less flawed" and implying that it makes him worse, just brought back memories of those moments.

Sonic Colors and Lost World' stories are so simple and generic that they had to rely on those "flaws" in order to create dialogues and situations to make cutscenes out of. They gave Sonic that weird obsession of talking to dead robots in order to build some bad humor, made Tails an untrustful brat only to create some internal conflict in the group and make the story more complex, etc. the problem is that those flaws were forced onto the characters in unnatural ways, just to make them "more interesting", because that's what people asked for. Surprise, people hated it, and didn't even realize that it was themselves who asked for it.

I think that asking for this is outright bad criticism, it's counterproductive and has negative effects on the series, and saying that the characters need to be "more flawed" in order to be "more interesting" is basically asking for this, which I disagree.

BTW what I said here is the same stuff I said in the other post, just more in depth.

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

The characters don't need flaws for the sake of it, but in order for the story to be "about" them...they need something that actually allows them to establish presence besides just existing. It's stuff like this that caused Sonic to not have much importance in most of the stories in the 2000's outside of the fact that he fought the main antagonist.

Flaws are only one of the several aspects which make a character... and stories don't always need to be 100% about character flaws to work, especially in gaming. There's plenty of RPG games and other genres where the protagonist is silent/just an avatar without personality and the story is interesting because of the plot itself, the world building etc. Characters don't "need" to be flawed, having flaws is part of the design of a character, and having more or less of them all depends on the purpose of said character and the context it's designed for; a story can contain several characters, some more flawed, others less flawed, and they can coexist... making all the characters flawed does not always improve the quality of a story (for sure making Shadow too stubborn and full of himself to listen to Sonic's advise in the Metal Virus arc only to fall like an idiot, didn't make him more interesting, it made him look like an idiot and nothing more... not Sonic, but: should I mention Samus in Metroid Other M too?).

And this goes the other way too. They removed all the flaws from Amy, turning her into someone very flat and one note. She's now mature, serious, capable, etc. she is basically perfect, but boring. This is because people complained to death about her 2000s incarnation and her obsessions for Sonic, so much that Sega just decided to cut them all.

This is why I said characters need to be themselves. I will repeat myself and say for one last time that the quality of a character is not measured by the amount of flaws it has.

[StaticMania]

Tails attitude isn't really treated as a flaw in Lost World, nor is Sonic's talking to himself in Colors...

---

Sonic's too cool to have any foibles or have those faults actually effect the plot.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

People are really confusing the idea behind flaws.

A flaw is...a drawback. A pro to a con. A weakness to a strength. An achilles heel.

It's what keeps characters from being perfect and unrelatable. Sonic's fast, but that speed makes him impulsive. Knuckles is strong, but his strength makes him hardheaded and stubborn. Shadow is powerful, but that power has him alone at times when he could use help. I'm mostly just making this stuff up to make a case, but you get the point.

You don't need more or less flaws than you do believable flaws that the story takes advantage of on that specific character. And those cah be expressed either in personality or physical abilities--Blaze has fire powers, so obviously the drawback to that is she'll be vulnerable to water, Eggman is full of pride, so the drawback to that is he's less likely to listen to someone warning him about something going wrong.

Above all, a character should not be perfect. Not if you want them to be interesting at least.

[Eurisko]

On 1/15/2023 at 7:10 PM, ShinyGems said:

That is actually an interesting opinion, and by extension; a possibly reasonable one as well. Since I would like to know about it, would you please care to explain why you think that, especially on the "not for a while" part?

What I mean is don’t bring her back for a game or two. 

[Cooldude]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:02 PM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Sonic 06 was more trying to recapture SA1 than it was Final Fantasy. Only with fire instead of water. And it could've worked if they weren't too focused on being complex for the sake of being complex.

Depends on what story you make around it, and ideally there should be a point to it. (I honestly feel that goes without saying, but I'm familiar with misinterpreting ideas in ways that aren't satisfying as intended)

Not saying they should go ahead and do that--that would actually be more of a waste of a character--but that any idea can work if you put decent effort into selling it. The type of tragedy that would follow from such an idea isn't unheard of, but you can't just do it just because you can, a la The Force Awakens.

Well I felt there was some kind of copying of the Final Fantasy element...it didn't work either way. But I do agree it got too complex for its own good. 

As for a point in killing off character, I agree, absolutely it should have been obvious, but unfortunately that's not always the case, as the Disney era Star War films have displayed. As for making any story idea work if you put in a decent effort, perhaps...but that also depends on the genre. Making a grim tragic ending through the killing of a main beloved character in a fun comedy wouldn't work...for example. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cooldude

[Cooldude]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:08 PM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

People are really confusing the idea behind flaws.

A flaw is...a drawback. A pro to a con. A weakness to a strength. An achilles heel.

It's what keeps characters from being perfect and unrelatable. Sonic's fast, but that speed makes him impulsive. Knuckles is strong, but his strength makes him hardheaded and stubborn. Shadow is powerful, but that power has him alone at times when he could use help. I'm mostly just making this stuff up to make a case, but you get the point.

You don't need more or less flaws than you do believable flaws that the story takes advantage of on that specific character. And those cah be expressed either in personality or physical abilities--Blaze has fire powers, so obviously the drawback to that is she'll be vulnerable to water, Eggman is full of pride, so the drawback to that is he's less likely to listen to someone warning him about something going wrong.

Above all, a character should not be perfect. Not if you want them to be interesting at least.

I don't think the issue was whether the character has to be perfect. I think its more along the lines that the focus on flaws may have the danger of missing other important  character attributes. Its not the flaws alone that makes a character interesting to fans. Yes, sure flaws are fine to make a character relatable. Certainly a character should have some of those drawbacks to make them more believeable. I got no issue with that. But there are also other aspects to making a character worth investing your support and emotions in beyond just flaws. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:00 AM, Cooldude said:

I don't think the issue was whether the character has to be perfect. I think its more along the lines that the focus on flaws may have the danger of missing other important  character attributes. Its not the flaws alone that makes a character interesting to fans. Yes, sure flaws are fine to make a character relatable. Certainly a character should have some of those drawbacks to make them more believeable. I got no issue with that. But there are also other aspects to making a character worth investing your support and emotions in beyond just flaws. 

That's true.

I just wanted to make clear the purpose of flaws. It really shouldn't be a matter of whether they have more or less of them. It's why I found the whole talk of them odd.

On 1/26/2023 at 2:24 AM, Cooldude said:

Well I felt there was some kind of copying of the Final Fantasy element...it didn't work either way. But I do agree it got too complex for its own good.

Honestly not the hugest fan of Final Fantasy (I don't hate the franchise, my favorites are 6 and Type-0), but even considering that influence, it's not like this would be the first time given other influences like Star Wars, Dragon Ball, and heck you could even add Zelda to the list.

They could make the Final Fantasy element work a lot better than they did, but...well we already saw the results to know how the executed it.

On 1/26/2023 at 2:24 AM, Cooldude said:

As for a point in killing off character, I agree, absolutely it should have been obvious, but unfortunately that's not always the case, as the Disney era Star War films have displayed. As for making any story idea work if you put in a decent effort, perhaps...but that also depends on the genre. Making a grim tragic ending through the killing of a main beloved character in a fun comedy wouldn't work...for example. 

I don't really think genre has anything to do with it. Star Wars is far from a fun comedy, yet did exactly that, and got a lot of heat for it among other things. Then you have Disney classics like Lion King and Bambi where they blatantly kill mother and father figures in settings that are pretty..."family-friendly" for lack of a better word. Then there's the Kung Fu Panda series, which is an action comedy series where the main character Po is a survivor of attempted genocide. And that's before getting into the sleeper hit that was Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. Nowadays, you'd be surprised at what works.

Really, you just need to know how to write scenes in ways that are believable. One thing that I know doesn't work is antagonizing, talking down, and deliberately annoying or disrespecting your audience in ways you know would generate out-of-universe conflict and drama over narrative choices. I don't think I need to make a list, but I think you'll agree that if you're going to do anything, grim and tragic, comedic, or whatever, is to at least respect the audience who came to enjoy it.

[Cooldude]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:51 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That's true.

I just wanted to make clear the purpose of flaws. It really shouldn't be a matter of whether they have more or less of them. It's why I found the whole talk of them odd.

Honestly not the hugest fan of Final Fantasy (I don't hate the franchise, my favorites are 6 and Type-0), but even considering that influence, it's not like this would be the first time given other influences like Star Wars, Dragon Ball, and heck you could even add Zelda to the list.

They could make the Final Fantasy element work a lot better than they did, but...well we already saw the results to know how the executed it.

I don't really think genre has anything to do with it. Star Wars is far from a fun comedy, yet did exactly that, and got a lot of heat for it among other things. Then you have Disney classics like Lion King and Bambi where they blatantly kill mother and father figures in settings that are pretty..."family-friendly" for lack of a better word. Then there's the Kung Fu Panda series, which is an action comedy series where the main character Po is a survivor of attempted genocide. And that's before getting into the sleeper hit that was Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. Nowadays, you'd be surprised at what works.

Really, you just need to know how to write scenes in ways that are believable. One thing that I know doesn't work is antagonizing, talking down, and deliberately annoying or disrespecting your audience in ways you know would generate out-of-universe conflict and drama over narrative choices. I don't think I need to make a list, but I think you'll agree that if you're going to do anything, grim and tragic, comedic, or whatever, is to at least respect the audience who came to enjoy it.

I am still a little skeptical about killing off main characters anyone  of genre, to each his own I fuess.

I wil say execution has a lot to do with whether it works or not, that part I agree. Although to be honest, that is very tricky to pull off and often fails to work.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cooldude

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, Cooldude said:

I am still a little skeptical about killing off main characters anyone regardless of genre, to each his own I fuess.

I wouldn't exactly recommend it myself, I just know there is a good way to do it without being insulting to the audience.

[Rabbitearsblog]

I'm interested in seeing Sage become a mainstay for this series because she was such an interesting character and there seems to be more to her character than from what we've seen in Frontiers.  My only concern with this is that what happens if future Sonic games don't really have a good story for her and ended up making her into a side character or write her character in an awful way.