Sonic the Hedgehog IDW #59: Cover & Info Reveal

[Slashy]

33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

First you complain about the new characters being too important...now they're too shallow? 

Yea I have no idea what is it you want and I feel like you're grasping at straws to be upset about something. Like I said, you want somethng new, but stll want to focus on old shit. You want to have your cake and eat it too bascally. 

I don't need to complain more because not seeing my favorite characters isn't as big of a deal as it is for you and most people. You guys don't see Blaze or Cream for a few months and treat it like ts the end of the world, meanwhile other characters get even less but that's perfectly fine. 

I've been enjoying most of these stories surrounding the new cast and its basically what I've been asking for in regards to newer stores.  I don't really have much else to add and  feel like this conversation s going nowhere.

I mentioned I would be okay with new antagonists getting  story importance because you only really have Eggman and the Deadly Six to work with from the games.

I am not complaining about seeing my favorite character. I am complaining about this plot being a fairly simple and basic concept for this franchise being carried by all the characters it is shoving in. I am annoyed that character appearances are being used in all hands on deck plots, like they are resorted to being members of the Justice League.

These characters would not need to appear in a shallow, gimmicky way if the new heroes were given less screentime.

Whisper could have been brushed to the background after Metal Virus, Belle could have not existed. Maybe Surge could have sought out the Master Emerald being even more and more power hungry and we could have argued about how she got sucker punched by Knuckles.

We could have had all that time spent on other characters, even this arc starts off with the Restoration crew front and center.

[Matdrac]

Honestly, I'm more interested in what they can introduce in the IDW Sonic comics than in the games, like Sonic Prine

[DabigRG]

Just would like to remind everyone that this conversation started with "Can we get stories about game characters that aren't Sonic and Tails?" 

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

First you complain about the new characters being too important...now they're too shallow? 

They're not mutually exclusive. Wouldn't mind having a Tangle story every once in a blue moon, but that's predicated on her still somewhat simplistic character actually having time between appearances and/or something actually interesting to do.

[dudebro1993]

Shadow's back in an IDW comic? This is going to be a problem. Our  only hope is that he's like the one in Prime...

[Red Hot Jack]

Honestly my main gripes with Scrapnik Island are the reduced cast of heroes and the lack of connectivity to the main story, perhaps it's true we need more slice of life stories but I am really more invested in the bigger arcs, for example Neo Metal Sonic, Metal Virus and the Imposters Saga, which also had a limited cast of heroes but this one looks like it may use more characters. I like when the comic feels like a manga I guess.

[Slashy]

24 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Honestly my main gripes with Scrapnik Island are the reduced cast of heroes and the lack of connectivity to the main story, perhaps it's true we need more slice of life stories but I am really more invested in the bigger arcs, for example Neo Metal Sonic, Metal Virus and the Imposters Saga, which also had a limited cast of heroes but this one looks like it may use more characters. I like when the comic feels like a manga I guess.

I think why you dislike it is why I love it. It is a story that has really strong pacing and has time to really focus on its more creative premise and location.

It is weird to call it a slice of life, but I guess for Sonic and Tails it is?

[Wraith]

More characters would have just bloated scrapnik island. It's great because it chooses to focus so much on Mecha Sonic without any distractions. The rest of the comic could stand to learn from it's restraint imo.

[Kuzu]

Like I said, the smaller, simpler arcs are better just for being more focused and consistent. I liked the big scale arcs too, but I don't connect with them as much.

[Slashy]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Like I said, the smaller, simpler arcs are better just for being more focused and consistent. I liked the big scale arcs too, but I don't connect with them as much.

I think you would appreciate them more if they were built the same way as the smaller scale stories.

They are built as overarching plots a bunch of stories tie into rather than a singular story that is just long.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Slashy said:

I think you would appreciate them more if they were built the same way as the smaller scale stories.

They are built as overarching plots a bunch of stories tie into rather than a singular story that is just long.

The bigger arcs can't work the same because their entire structure hinges on the macro.

Metal Virus and Battle of Angel Island are arcs that kind of necessitate a large cast.

And Imposter Syndrome only works because its built on smaller arcs and even then, it's still an arc centered on a selecr few characters at the end of the day.

 

Scrapnik Island is self contained and has no greater effect outside of where it takes place. Something like that doesn't work when an arc is on a global scale.

[Slashy]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The bigger arcs can't work the same because their entire structure hinges on the macro.

Metal Virus and Battle of Angel Island are arcs that kind of necessitate a large cast.

And Imposter Syndrome only works because its built on smaller arcs and even then, it's still an arc centered on a selecr few characters at the end of the day.

Scrapnik Island is self contained and has no greater effect outside of where it takes place. Something like that doesn't work when an arc is on a global scale.

Frontiers only has 7 characters involved in its story. One of them is practically just a monster with little known about them, one of them is stuck in cyberspace 5 of them are stuck in cyberspace and are damsels that have to be rescued.

Secret Rings only really has 3 major characters, Unleashed really only has 6, you do not need a huge cast for these stories at least not major characters. Look at any self-contained adventure series like Pokèmon or Doctor Who for any other guidance on how it can be done.

You do not need a huge cast for the large scale stories.

Impostor Syndrome could almost work without the entire Belle Saga. Just have Starline use Orbot's blueprints to help make the Impostors.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Slashy said:

Frontiers only has 7 characters involved in its story. One of them is practically just a monster with little known about them, one of them is stuck in cyberspace 5 of them are stuck in cyberspace and are damsels that have to be rescued.

Secret Rings only really has 3 major characters, Unleashed really only has 6, you do not need a huge cast for these stories at least not major characters. Look at any self-contained adventure series like Pokèmon or Doctor Who for any other guidance on how it can be done.

You do not need a huge cast for the large scale stories.

 

None of those stories are large scaled at all. They don't have any greater effect than where they're set. Except maybe Unleashed.

 

Quote

Impostor Syndrome could almost work without the entire Belle Saga. Just have Starline use Orbot's blueprints to help make the Impostors.

"The story would be better if you changed it and did I what I want" I'm sure it would...to you.

How about you take $10 and go talk to Ian Flynn on his podcast and tell him this stuff, or Evan Stanley on Twitter  I dunno. I'm kind of tired of this conversation.

Evidently you aren't satisfied with this series so I dunno...go make a fanfic or something.

 

 

Please don't reply anymore, I'm not going to answer. 

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't even mind stories that have few characters, see Frontiers, it's perfect. I'm just not invested or excited for Scrapnik Island I guess, cool atmosphere but that is about it, nothing special for me. Of course I want more characters to be featured besides the usual, the Overpowered arc is cool but I am getting tired of the same cast.

The "bigger continuity stories vs self contained episodic stories" is just preferences, it's okay, the comic can have both.

The most complete arc for me was Chao Races and Badnik Bases, it had both the episodic plot and set up for Starline's plot and Belle's introduction, yeah yeah it was too much stuff crammed together, but I felt it had something for everybody, fun interaction, a cool cast, new characters and set up for bigger arcs.

Trial by Fire was quite filler with little plot moving forward, it was slow and not that interesting but I liked to see the interactions between the girls and especially it was cool to see Belle grow.

I didn't like Zeti Hunt or Test Run to be honest, they were quite pointless and boring to me, especially Zeti Hunt bar the final chapter with Belle's backstory. The Deadly Six stuff could have been resolved earlier or in a better more fun way.

[DabigRG]

We need another Sonic Universe or at least have some of the miniseries focus on the B, C, and perhaps D list game characters more often. 

That and whatever mandate there was regarding Sonic needing to be included in every story has clearly been eased up on before the current storyline, so the floodgates are open now.

On 12/25/2022 at 12:59 PM, Kuzu said:

Those are essentially different characters. So I think it says a lot that they had to essentially change who Amy was to make her interesting.

We literally just had Surge, Kit, and Starline. We also had Mimic, Rough, Tumble, and Clutch. All villains. We've had more villains than new heroic characters, with only getting Tangle, Whiper and Belle being any major focus. 

Y'all Sonic fans are so fucking weird about this shit I swear; you complain after a whole decade of not introducing any new major characters and just focusing on the bare minimum of characters to tell the story. So now they're actually starting to introduce new characters again, but now y'all hate it because your old favorites aren't getting time you think they deserve. You want new characters to expand the world, but you don't want them to take attention away from the older characters.

I don't really know what to tell you; I'm not so insecure that I'm gonna get upset if my favorites aren't onscreen for a period of time. Knuckles literally hasn't done shit past the first year this series started. He's been stuck on Angel Island because y'all wouldn't shut up about him not doing his job and now he doesn't do shit. So if I can't get a Knuckles story about him, who else am I going to focus on but the new characters who actually have stories to tell and aren't so rigidly defined that prevents any real storytelling?

I liked the stories focused on Tangle and Whisper and dealing with the latter's trauma, I like seeing Surge and Kit bounce off of everyone else and see where they're going. if I'm liking what I'm getting, I don't see the problem.

Sorry you're not seeing your favorites. But you wanted a "Game accurate" book? Well the games were doing this shit of introducing new characters and pushing old ones to the side for years. So you got what you wanted, congratulations.

 

On 12/25/2022 at 4:41 PM, Kuzu said:

First you complain about the new characters being too important...now they're too shallow? 

Yea I have no idea what is it you want and I feel like you're grasping at straws to be upset about something. Like I said, you want somethng new, but stll want to focus on old shit. You want to have your cake and eat it too bascally. 

I don't need to complain more because not seeing my favorite characters isn't as big of a deal as it is for you and most people. You guys don't see Blaze or Cream for a few months and treat it like ts the end of the world, meanwhile other characters get even less but that's perfectly fine. 

I've been enjoying most of these stories surrounding the new cast and its basically what I've been asking for in regards to newer stores.  I don't really have much else to add and  feel like this conversation s going nowhere.

 

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

None of those stories are large scaled at all. They don't have any greater effect than where they're set. Except maybe Unleashed.

"The story would be better if you changed it and did I what I want" I'm sure it would...to you.

How about you take $10 and go talk to Ian Flynn on his podcast and tell him this stuff, or Evan Stanley on Twitter  I dunno. I'm kind of tired of this conversation.

Evidently you aren't satisfied with this series so I dunno...go make a fanfic or something.

Please don't reply anymore, I'm not going to answer. 

So I went back over this conversation to see where disconnect is coming from and unfortunately, I had to highlight these quotes because they have the root of the problem.

You're getting lost in the weeds of Apples & Oranges and making it a matter of "What I want vs What YOU want" instead of actually hearing & engaging with what is being discussed.

The conversation got a bit scrambled as it went on, yes, but everything ultimately came back to wanting to see the rest of the game cast get meaningful panel time--something nearly everyone wants, yourself included.

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

 

The "bigger continuity stories vs self contained episodic stories" is just preferences, it's okay, the comic can have both.

Basically.

1 hour ago, Red Hot Jack said:

 

I didn't like Zeti Hunt or Test Run to be honest, they were quite pointless and boring to me, especially Zeti Hunt bar the final chapter with Belle's backstory. The Deadly Six stuff could have been resolved earlier or in a better more fun way.

 Zeti Hunt would've been better if it stayed itself and focused on the premise it initially set up for itself.

Though it(and by extension, the Glitch-Belle connection) also only existed because Flynn didn't originally plan on having all of the Deadly Six around and needed to resolve the issue.

 

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

Its not even about that; I understand others want more focus on the game cast...that's just never been a huge priority for me. Its less what I specifcially want, and more I've been rather content with what I've been getting. 

I feel the disconnect more comes from the fact that some of you are upset that the game cast aren't getting much attention or screentime compared to the new guys outside of these big action issues...and I like I said, that's literally how the games function too. When Shadow was getting his own story arcs and all that in the mid 2000's, Tails, Knuckles and Amy all took a backseat. Same with Blaze, same wth Silver. And the comics are following that format.  Establishing new characters with new stories; you can't really establish new characters if they have to share space and screentime with the older characters because then they're just gonna be competing with each other for more attention. 

Saying stuff like "Remove Belle" is missing the point; she's one of the focal points of these past few story arcs. Whether you like her or not is another matter entriely, but removing her is basicially changing the entire story from the ground up.

 

Now could things be better? Absolutely. But I've been having a lot of fun reading this book, even if  don't think its perfect. I've always been an advocate that the older cast need to be pushed aside to make way for new characters; I know that's a very unpopular opinion that I expect to get a lot of pushback on, but I don't really care either. We've seen how much of an impact Tangle, Whisper, Starline, Surge and Kit have had on readers and they would have never been able to do that if they had to compete with the older cast for panel time.

Not that you can't establish new characters while keeping focus on the older ones...but as said, Sonic has over 15 recurring characters. Whether you guys like it or not, some characters are going to get snubbed in panel time. 20 pages a month isn't a lot and this isn't a weekly Shonen manga where you're constantly getting drip fed content a month.

So the writers can't exactly just bloat the cast when they're trying to tell a story because that would just drag the pacing down. Imagine how much more of a slog Imposter Syndrome would be if it had to keep focus on Amy, Knuckles, Cream, Shadow, Rouge, Blaze or Silver while still keeping things centered on Sonc, Tails, Belle, Eggman, Starline, Surge and Kit? At some point, you're gonna have to make the decision on cutting a few characters to keep the story flowing better.

[Slashy]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Tails, Knuckles and Amy all took a backseat.

All three of them had their own storyline in Battle. Amy had her own storyline in Heroes.

They were all featured in every remotely notable title released in era until 06.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Same with Blaze, same wth Silver.

Silver had is own story in 06 and the Rivals games, Blaze was important in 06 and the two Rush titles.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Establishing new characters with new stories; you can't really establish new characters if they have to share space and screentime with the older characters because then they're just gonna be competing with each other for more attention. 

The adventure games did it fine. Battle did it amazingly. You do not need older characters to work. Sonic Tails, and Amy are the only game cast to have any major prominence this entire arc.

The problem is we were introducing Belle while still dealing with several other storylines with the Restoration crew and Starline and the Impostors.

Remove one of those three aspects and you would have more time for the game cast.

There is a reason the games tend to only introduce one major character at a time. The only time they really did not was when the cast was small.

Also maybe we do not always have to rush through character arcs which demands loads of screentime? Characters like Emerl and Chip had a simple appeal which enabled the stories to take their time moving through the character arcs.

A character can be introduced and established and their backstory can come later.

There are many ways this could have been done without snubbing nearly the entire cast.

[Ducktor Naldush]

I'll have to agree with Kuzu in some aspects here - this is a 20 pages comic that comes out once a month, if things go well, following an ongoing storyline that has to be written at least half competently, not a videogame with a story mode and characters that can be crammed into the game despite their appearance not making much sense (Knuckles in Sonic 06) because in the end the goal is playing as them in the levels. 

I understand not liking Belle, although I don't share that opinion, but, again, different media, working differently from the videogames.

Removing her wouldn't have given more screentime to other characters, it would have fundamently changed how the comic works and what is narrating right now, I think it's a moot point.

 

[Kuzu]

Please leave me alone @SlashyI'm not gonna tell you again. I wasn't responding to you.

[Slashy]

1 hour ago, Ducktor Naldush said:

I'll have to agree with Kuzu in some aspects here - this is a 20 pages comic that comes out once a month, if things go well, following an ongoing storyline that has to be written at least half competently, not a videogame with a story mode and characters that can be crammed into the game despite their appearance not making much sense (Knuckles in Sonic 06) because in the end the goal is playing as them in the levels. 

I understand not liking Belle, although I don't share that opinion, but, again, different media, working differently from the videogames.

Removing her wouldn't have given more screentime to other characters, it would have fundamently changed how the comic works and what is narrating right now, I think it's a moot point.

I am not sure of your argument here. You are acting like this is some kind of limitation and it is not. The screentime existed for other characters, it was just not used on them.

Even your argument with 06, remove the repeated plot beats in Sonic's story and you have time to throw in a justification for Knuckles to appear in the story.

[DabigRG]

So another solution is to allow whatever new characters are introduced to either involve those other characters in their stories or be designed with interacting with those characters in mind. In other words, more characters like Thrash, Eclipse, or Gold.

 

In fact, Clutch, the Skunk Bros, and Lanolin have thus far been examples of that within IDW. Plus, a Bumblekast question at least got Flynn thinking about proper rival/imposter for Knuckles again.

3 hours ago, Slashy said:

 

The problem is we were introducing Belle while still dealing with several other storylines with the Restoration crew and Starline and the Impostors.

Remove one of those three aspects and you would have more time for the game cast.

There is a reason the games tend to only introduce one major character at a time. The only time they really did not was when the cast was small.

Also maybe we do not always have to rush through character arcs which demands loads of screentime? Characters like Emerl and Chip had a simple appeal which enabled the stories to take their time moving through the character arcs.

A character can be introduced and established and their backstory can come later.

There are many ways this could have been done without snubbing nearly the entire cast.

I do see the logic here, so only concession to be had her is that we don't necessarily have to do away with characters like Belle entirely--just be more prudent about when and how much they are used.

Plus, even her case, she's been very much oriented around her interactions with the core three (plus Tangle and Metal)--the issue is once again a matter of how much focus is dedicated to her.

[Kuzu]

Well yea, but those characters had specific mini-series' focused around those concepts, similar to Imposter Syndrome and the Tangle and Whisper series.

 

Basically, your only hope for focus on the game cast without it bloating the main book is that you better pray they get a mini-series somewhere down the line.

[Kaotic Kanine]

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

So another solution is to allow whatever new characters are introduced to either involve those other characters in their stories or be designed with interacting with those characters in mind. In other words, more characters like Thrash, Eclipse, or Gold.

Exactly! If we're to get new recurring characters, it'd be much better if they exist to play off of the game cast, and thereby allow those game characters more spotlight. Like, we got so many evil/anti-heroic counterparts to Sonic. How about at one for Knuckles? Or Tails? Or freaking Amy! Likewise, if Shadow's new thing is that he's out looking for a "worthy challenge", then give him that! Give Shadow a personal villain that he can have awesome fights and dialogue with.

With regards to this topic as a whole, I have to echo DabigRG's sentiment that we really need an "IDW Sonic Universe". A dedicated spin-off book that focuses on the game characters aside from Sonic. I personally would have much less resentment towards Tangle, Whisper, and especially Belle if, say, Cream had her own side story going on while the main book focused on the comic exclusives. We'd likely also get to see Knuckles, Blaze, and Shadow a lot more often. As it is, we have to hope that the next arc in the main book decides to include any of the game characters, let alone gives them any sort of focus. But with each arc being about four issues long, and each issue being released once a month (ideally)... Well, there's only so much waiting we can bare.

And I ain't seeing any hope in a mini-series for the game cast seeing how the first three mini-series' focused entirely on the comic exclusive characters (Zavok being the sole exception), and the current fourth one is yet another Sonic and Tails story. Not to say that's bad, mind you; Tangle and Whisper's mini-series was born from their incredible popularity with fans and critics, Bad Guys likewise capitalized on Starline's popularity, and Scrapnik Island has a very creative premise that puts Sonic and Tails in a very unique situation. But nonetheless, for us fans who want to see Cream, Rouge, Blaze, Silver, and so on... Our only reliable avenue are the Annual issues. Which, as the name spells out, are only once a year. With only five, very short stories each. And even then, there's a good chance of those stories focusing on the comic exclusives. So, better pray that you're preferred game character is the star of one of those five stories And that the story is actually good. I'll admit right now that I have mixed feelings with Cream's story in the 2022 Annual, and I outright feel bad for fans of Jet with regards to his story in that annual.

Of course, I suppose none of this would be a problem if the game cast were allowed to regularly appear in the actual games. If we still had Cream, Rouge, the Chaotix, Blaze, and Silver making significant appearances in the main series and spin-off games, the comics focusing on the comic exclusive characters would be much more tolerable since, well, they're exclusive to the comics while the game characters get to be in the "origin media" for this franchise. But as it happens, the game cast haven't been featured in the main games since 2006, with Generations and Forces being special exceptions (but even then, those were bit roles at best). Specifically to cater to a crowd who should never have been catered to in the first place. And the games stopped having any serious spin-offs outside of the Olympic crossovers with Mario to showcase those characters. Team Sonic Racing was the first actual Sonic spin-off game in a decade (I think), but that sadly crashed and burned on arrival. And that game also showed me that I can't even count on Cream appearing in a racing title, one that features the very team she was created for  So... The comics are the only medium in this entire franchise allowing these characters any meaningful appearances. And the comics clearly prefers its own characters over the game cast who have been neglected in their own medium for over a decade.

...So, yeah. IDW Sonic Universe please.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Lack of Sonic Universe is basically IDW largest flaw.

I will say that having 4 minis, all either about IDW exclusives or Sonic & Tails, feels a bit cruel.

[Kuzu]

I don't know if Ian commented on that or not on why there isn't an equivalent to Sonic Universe, but iirc, he said something to the effect of that since Ian doesn't own any of the game characters, he can't do much with them unless it's approved by Sega.

And even then, he can't make any changes to them so as to not step on Sega's toes.

[Slashy]

8 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Exactly! If we're to get new recurring characters, it'd be much better if they exist to play off of the game cast, and thereby allow those game characters more spotlight. Like, we got so many evil/anti-heroic counterparts to Sonic. How about at one for Knuckles? Or Tails? Or freaking Amy! Likewise, if Shadow's new thing is that he's out looking for a "worthy challenge", then give him that! Give Shadow a personal villain that he can have awesome fights and dialogue with.

With regards to this topic as a whole, I have to echo DabigRG's sentiment that we really need an "IDW Sonic Universe". A dedicated spin-off book that focuses on the game characters aside from Sonic. I personally would have much less resentment towards Tangle, Whisper, and especially Belle if, say, Cream had her own side story going on while the main book focused on the comic exclusives. We'd likely also get to see Knuckles, Blaze, and Shadow a lot more often. As it is, we have to hope that the next arc in the main book decides to include any of the game characters, let alone gives them any sort of focus. But with each arc being about four issues long, and each issue being released once a month (ideally)... Well, there's only so much waiting we can bare.

And I ain't seeing any hope in a mini-series for the game cast seeing how the first three mini-series' focused entirely on the comic exclusive characters (Zavok being the sole exception), and the current fourth one is yet another Sonic and Tails story. Not to say that's bad, mind you; Tangle and Whisper's mini-series was born from their incredible popularity with fans and critics, Bad Guys likewise capitalized on Starline's popularity, and Scrapnik Island has a very creative premise that puts Sonic and Tails in a very unique situation. But nonetheless, for us fans who want to see Cream, Rouge, Blaze, Silver, and so on... Our only reliable avenue are the Annual issues. Which, as the name spells out, are only once a year. With only five, very short stories each. And even then, there's a good chance of those stories focusing on the comic exclusives. So, better pray that you're preferred game character is the star of one of those five stories And that the story is actually good. I'll admit right now that I have mixed feelings with Cream's story in the 2022 Annual, and I outright feel bad for fans of Jet with regards to his story in that annual.

Of course, I suppose none of this would be a problem if the game cast were allowed to regularly appear in the actual games. If we still had Cream, Rouge, the Chaotix, Blaze, and Silver making significant appearances in the main series and spin-off games, the comics focusing on the comic exclusive characters would be much more tolerable since, well, they're exclusive to the comics while the game characters get to be in the "origin media" for this franchise. But as it happens, the game cast haven't been featured in the main games since 2006, with Generations and Forces being special exceptions (but even then, those were bit roles at best). Specifically to cater to a crowd who should never have been catered to in the first place. And the games stopped having any serious spin-offs outside of the Olympic crossovers with Mario to showcase those characters. Team Sonic Racing was the first actual Sonic spin-off game in a decade (I think), but that sadly crashed and burned on arrival. And that game also showed me that I can't even count on Cream appearing in a racing title, one that features the very team she was created for  So... The comics are the only medium in this entire franchise allowing these characters any meaningful appearances. And the comics clearly prefers its own characters over the game cast who have been neglected in their own medium for over a decade.

...So, yeah. IDW Sonic Universe please.

See the difference here is I would not have minded if the game cast were the only characters that got to consistently be center stage. With new characters filling roles in specific plots or just more villains. To me it feels like the desire for several more characters is built upon the desire to give the comic its own identity or a way to get excitement outside of interesting use of existing elements.

I was not generally a Sonic comics fan so I see a desire to have it fit in line with previous shows like Boom, X, and Prime.