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Do you think Sonic Frontiers will change how fanservice is regarded/written?


Scritch the Cat

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51 minutes ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

... .... .... .... ...

The game could'nt even give the cyberspace stages their own unique names..

This is definely an issue. I just think the focus on Titan fights and the Starfall islands work well enough to set it out. The game, imo, has an identity that it doesn't lean into enough because it's still too concerned with old shit. 

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I was harsh in saying it doesn't have an identity. If anything though, it has a confused identity that doesn't know what to exactly do.

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1 hour ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

... .... .... 

Stage 3-4.... such a good stage.. ... 

I bet virtually everybody who reads this doesn't even know what stage that's themed on without looking.

Let alone the layout and length of it.

But this game definitely has its own identity!

The Windmill Isle Bonus stage? XD It's actually weird you picked one that I remembered in this instance. 

I don't think it's an issue so much, but I appreciate where this is coming form. I tend to only remember the stages numerically either by music I liked, if I enjoyed an original level, or via them being flashback levels. But that won't be true for everyone. 

It could supposedly be a bit more helpful if they were actually named something or the themes were designated (especially for the completely repurposed levels) like; Windmill Illusion, Metal Construct, Sky Renascent, Green Throwback, City Redux etc... but how far can you take that? Not to mention there are only 4 themes, so you'd still be naming them like City Redux 1, 2, 3, 4... 

Because Cyberspace levels are essentially short special stages I imagine they took the 'creative' decision to just name them as acts like the older sonic titles. I suppose when selecting them from the Open Zone or the main screen it couldn't hurt to use a few more recognisable pictures of the level though. But hey, this is where the 4 themes problem lies - and i'm not about to discredit that that isn't an issue - just not a big one overall. 
 

42 minutes ago, DaBigJ said:

I was harsh in saying it doesn't have an identity. If anything though, it has a confused identity that doesn't know what to exactly do.

I suppose it's open to interpretation at the end of the day, I gathered from your other posts that you didn't enjoy it XD (although well done for 100%'ing anyway!), so it's difficult to see positives in something you didn't have much fun with. I have my own beef with Horizon II for example, that game made me miserable for so many different reasons over the course of that 100+ hour adventure that I found it difficult to appreciate what was solid and enjoyable about that game, especially when I know it's a competently made title. But here I am honestly saying Frontiers was a much better experience for me overall.  

I think Sonic Team have genuinely found their feet (AGAIN) with this title and may have realised they hit on something that (whilst not perfect) can actually be refined and improved... but only the next game can showcase this. I found enjoyment from Frontiers personally so I see that shining light at the end of the tunnel, so if they stick the course and see this through for Frontiers 2 or whatever it might be then it could be great for everyone next time around. 

----

And just to keep on Topic to the OP; if Flynn remains attached to these games? Then yes potentially it will. I think you can honour the past whilst looking forwards, which is what this game did pretty well IMO. 

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32 minutes ago, Sonicka said:

I suppose it's open to interpretation at the end of the day, I gathered from your other posts that you didn't enjoy it XD (although well done for 100%'ing anyway!), so it's difficult to see positives in something you didn't have much fun with. 

Yeah I really didn't like it. Might be one of my least favorite Sonic games (I should make a tier list) yet I 100%'d just so I can be....thorough? Experience everything? Idk lol but thanks!

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I think it's time to get back to the topic at hand. The game's identity was never really in question, I'd say. 

Myself, like any other fans, do appreciate a sense of connectivity between each entry. However, many of the callbacks as they were done in Frontiers are not quite hitting the spot. I'd go as far as them missing the target completely, detracting the enjoyment rather than enhancing it. I've experienced the JP script which stripped a good chunk of them, but even then, it felt too much. When I got familiar with the EN one, I couldn't help but thinking it was overkill. 

Nods to past events are great to have, but just having them is not enough. It needs to have a good reason to be there with the situation at hand. And unfortunately, the many instances that they appeared in the game felt like they just came out of the blue. It wasn't natural at all. It felt worse as they were all just a verbal nod, not accompanied by visuals/action/setting (aside from one particular instance, which was really not well done). 

Frontiers may change how this kind of fanservice is done from now on, but I'm hoping that it it doesn't take a lot of what Frontiers delivered. 

A good example of fan service is Big's random/connected presence. And that's pretty much how other series do it as it's typically subtle and easy to do (old characters appearing as part of crowd, passer-by, etc.) 

 

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I think Frontiers sets a precedence on a greater focus on continuity and continued developments between games, so old games being brought up will be inevitable. But I think Frontiers' overall abundance of fanservice and callbacks will be a one-time deal, at least for the foreseeable future. Given how much of the story in Frontiers gives wider implications about the series' lore, it could be argued that Frontiers added a lot of that stuff out of a sort of necessity (though definitely not all of it). Unless we're constantly fighting bad guys who have big implications about established lore, which would be terrible, then I think it's probably something that will be handled like previously.

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1 hour ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think Frontiers sets a precedence on a greater focus on continuity and continued developments between games, so old games being brought up will be inevitable. But I think Frontiers' overall abundance of fanservice and callbacks will be a one-time deal, at least for the foreseeable future. Given how much of the story in Frontiers gives wider implications about the series' lore, it could be argued that Frontiers added a lot of that stuff out of a sort of necessity (though definitely not all of it). Unless we're constantly fighting bad guys who have big implications about established lore, which would be terrible, then I think it's probably something that will be handled like previously.

Frontiers definitely was moreso a game to set things on track. That being said, having the references as they were in the overfield, wasn't nearly as egregious as some people make it out to be.

Hell, I didn't even get quite a few that I was actually going out of my way to try and get.

Now, that being said, stuff like the confirmation of Sticks being canon, is showcasing matters that were technically already the case, but now this shows confirmation. I can't help but wonder if Frontiers, while a good game in its own regard, was setting up towards something of a big ensemble piece as the follow-up main game.

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2 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think Frontiers sets a precedence on a greater focus on continuity and continued developments between games, so old games being brought up will be inevitable. But I think Frontiers' overall abundance of fanservice and callbacks will be a one-time deal, at least for the foreseeable future. Given how much of the story in Frontiers gives wider implications about the series' lore, it could be argued that Frontiers added a lot of that stuff out of a sort of necessity (though definitely not all of it). Unless we're constantly fighting bad guys who have big implications about established lore, which would be terrible, then I think it's probably something that will be handled like previously.

Exactly. The amount of callbacks/fanservice really depends on the story the creators want to tell in a Sonic Game. Frontiers serves to tie in the lore of the games so far and add more to its core canon. Story-wise, it serves as a crucial pivot of the whole series. So in that context, having these callbacks/fanservice makes perfect sense. Especially since one can argue that storytelling has never been a strong point for a lot of the Sonic Games (Frontiers being the standout exception), I mean we aren't talking about story depth comparable to "Last of Us", "Final Fantasy", "God of War" or "Ghost of Tsushima". So if these callbacks/fanservice make the whole series story more coherent, logical and tie all the ends together, I am ok with it. 

For future Sonic games with a more independent or stand-alone story, there probably won't be as much callback/fanservice. There still might be a few callbacks, but maybe not to the extent we get in Frontiers. Personally, I really don't mind having a callback here and there, it adds a nice touch to tell the gamer that the creators care about the story they want to tell in the game and how that fits in the whole universe (so long as they don't overdo it of course). 

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1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Now, that being said, stuff like the confirmation of Sticks being canon, is showcasing matters that were technically already the case, but now this shows confirmation.

Was that ever suggested anywhere else besides one of the Olympics games?

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11 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Was that ever suggested anywhere else besides one of the Olympics games?

There was a comic on Sonic Channel.

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14 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Was that ever suggested anywhere else besides one of the Olympics games?

The SEGA comics on the Sonic Channel.

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Wait, the Japanese script removes a lot of these? That's pretty funny. 

I haven't played the game and still haven't decided if I should or not, I just know that Spagonia balloon reference was completely botched but at least that's just idle dialogue. 

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I will admit, it can be pretty pathetic to watch Sonic literally stop running just so he can make some reference.

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On 1/11/2023 at 2:27 PM, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I mean, yeah, it does. Pretty much anyone you ask will know what stage 1-2 was. Funnily enough, the way most people recognize the stages is by their music, with the tracks actually having unique names there, and the stages have had very catchy music in that regard.

It's funny you say this, because I've been listening to the soundtrack for weeks now and despite doing an Arcade Mode playthrough not long ago, I still have trouble matching tracks to stages.  With a name like "Transparent Highway", I've been thinking of the Eternal Highway aesthetics every time I listen to that song, but nope, that's a Green Hill stage - in fact, it's Sky Rail, which was a very notable stage for me because it was the first one I encountered where I was like "Hey, wait, hang on, they're remaking old stages here!" (ironically, despite the stages from Generations I'd already played feeling like they should have been way more obvious, the way they chopped and spliced them and removed connective scripted sequences did pull the wool over my eyes for a bit and made me think they were just re-using the occasional platforming idea).  I have this issue with a lot of the songs that could be described as "general trancey stuff" like Transparent Highway (fantastic as they all are).

I'd also say 1-2 isn't the best example of a memorable stage, considering it's one of the only two mandatory ones in the game.  Everyone would know that one even without the notorious time limit challenge, it's kind of the exciting "real start" of the game after the tutorial segments.

But yeah, I kinda wish they had given each Cyber Space stage a unique name, just makes them so much easier to talk about, especially once you get to Ouranos Island where they're MOSTLY original and don't always have a single stand-out gimmick, just being kind of general original platforming stages (which, thank god, is a good thing even if they're still lacking in unique gimmicks and instead just kind of use a mixture of stuff from Unleashed, Generations and Sonic Adventure 2 that Sonic Team were forced to make in order for the throwback levels to be recognisable (like the Sky Rail rotorblade springs).

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The discussion of Cyber Space identity is a bit off-topic so I'll just say I agree with the consensus that the references in Frontiers were just lacking in substance.  Just all namedropping stuff without it really adding anything to the new story.  I'd like to say it's maybe intended to foreshadow "look, all this stuff is still canon, and we might be going back to some of it for new stories later!" which is... yeah I'm okay with that.  The way Frontiers built on the Chaos lore a bit is fine enough, so if they do the same with other pre-existing lore, that's fine by me (even though, ironically, Sonic Adventure is the one game they don't really mention at all, in fact it's only Eggman's logs that even acknowledge that the Ancients sorta look like Chaos).

But there's an argument to be made that all that lore that's getting name-dropped?  Gerald and Maria?  The Deadly Six?  Angel Island?  Dark Gaia?  The Egg Carrier?  The Babylonians?  Heck, the raccoon guy from Team Sonic Racing?

Those didn't all come to be by bringing back old shit all the time.  They were just interesting new stories that - haphazardly or not - added to Sonic's world with fresh new ideas.  So there is something to be said for being skeptical about tacking new lore onto old.  I actually nearly included the reference to the Black Arms in that list up there before I remembered that, and look how well those guys were generally received.  I don't think people cared for the Babylonians suddenly turning out to be aliens in Zero Gravity either.  Actually you know what, maybe we should put a ban on "actually it was aliens" lore being added onto existing stuff, for a couple decades or so at least?

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Okay now that I actually read through the argument I can participate in this topic for real.

I disagree with almost everything stated. There's no way Frontiers has something in the deep reference area, but everyone has a criteria. I'm like the only one who thought it was wonky when Amy referenced the Egg Carrier in Sonic Heroes, though that's not too bad given now.

 

But to answer the main question, ignoring the so called lore team that may or may not influence that kind of references in the future, it's dependent on the writer/producer in charge. If Sonic Prime was headed by younger fans it absolutely would be filled with callbacks to Adventure 2, heck it may still do that if the show continues more. Other than that, if Sega of America throws the positive reception towards Sega of Japan and they take that into account, well shoot. For all we know Kishimoto and Iizuka never thought of writing that way and are personally happy with it.

Different format is different, but the Sonic Channel comics from 2016 feel super genuine in its references compared to some of the Frontiers stuff. I don't why I'm annoyed when I haven't even played the game, I'm bothered by the cheap feel because of a reason I can't figure out yet.

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3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I will admit, it can be pretty pathetic to watch the Sonic literally stop running just so he can make some reference.

I kinda liked it in some occasions so I could focus on text, but that’s just me. It forcing a stop can be turned off in the settings though.

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I never thought I’d be saying this, but I do hope they get toned down in the future. 

For everything Flynn and Frontiers’ story gets right (being actually funny and intriguing, handling darker topics with depth and a consistent, but not overbearingly serious tone, the pretty spot-on characterization for the main 4 and Eggman), there are some missteps, the endgame and the reference overload being among the biggest ones. It can definitely get annoying - the Dark Gaia and Sonic 3 opening references stand out as some very big reaches that only seem to say “hey guys, remember? REMEMBER??” with nothing else to say, in the same way that Forces did, which is … Yikes.  I think it stems from Ian’s background as a comic book writer - nearly every reference feels like it should have an asterisk with a yellow panel saying “As seen in *insert game here*!” like he loves to do in the comics. But for his first run, and coming off a decade of stories where the past hasn’t mattered in any tangible way outside of Gens, I’m not mad at this, and I still believe the pendulum swinging in this direction is way better than the alternative, even if this is quite a hard swing. Flynn is almost terminally online, and him making references has become a bit of a meme in the community, so I imagine he’s aware of it, and will work on it going forward. I feel like Flynn’s true test will be the next game, if he writes it (and I imagine he will) giving us a story more akin to Unleashed (that opening cutscene is a masterwork of just throwing you into a world and letting you figure out the franchise elements as it keeps going) or the Adventures, where you can jump in and figure out what’s going on clearly, without a deeper knowledge of the series up to that point. But hopefully in a framework like that, Ian can use his references in a deeper, satisfying way - like I’d argue he actually managed to do several times in Frontiers, some of those reachier references aside. 

Frontiers is at it’s best when it’s using Sonic’s extensive history and depth as a way to get a new story beat across instead of getting off a joke or a cute reference. Knuckles talking about his past on Ares amounts to more than “hey guys, remember Sonic Adventure & the echidnas???! Please remember Sonic Adventure!!” - it’s a jump off point to explore Knuckles’ character and his relation to this destroyed civilization and who he is as a person - the Tikal/SA1 references are the cherry on top. Tails referencing Sonic’s departure and Infinite isn’t just saying “hey guys, remember when Forces happened?” (although i don’t know why you’d ever want to remember Forces) - it’s using that moment to say something about Tails and finally do something new with him. That’s ultimately why even though it definitely stumbles occasionally and needs some work, I recognize Frontiers as a good Sonic story and Ian as a good writer. Sure, it’s not perfect! It falls apart at the end! There are too many cute little references that end up being distracting by the time you’re done! And this definitely feels like Unleashed in a sense, still stuck in and shaking off some of the trappings of the era before it in order to start over. But there is genuine heart behind it, which is more than I can say for anything from the last 10 years. These characters feel real again, instead of like quip/exposition machines. There are some of the best moments in the entire series in Frontiers, and if Ian can double down on those elements I think this next game (and maybe the DLC?) is shaping up to be truly something else. I can really see it working beautifully. 

^ the above, when Frontiers and Flynn are firing on all cylinders, is why when anyone says its somehow worse than the Pontaff era that it’s laughable to me, like that era of stories was ever capable of anything more than maybe a joke that’d make you exhale through your nose for a second. Frontiers has it’s issues, but worse than the Baldy Nosehair/bitchmade Tails era where nothing of substance ever happened? fucking lol. lmao. get real

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I like a bit referencing to a degree, it has been done before in SA1 and Heroes to name a few.

By the end of Frontiers though my ribs were hurting from being elbowed in a " you remember this?? eh? look look we acknowledge old stuff" kinda way. It felt like they had a checklist of refferences to include and HAD to squeeze them all in.

 

 

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I think individual opinions on this is going to MASSIVELY vary depending on how much of the idle/exploration idle text you manage to trigger during a playthrough. The game seems to be very inconsistent about triggering these. In my case I only got a handful across my entire 100% playthrough and even only recently did Sonic acknowledge the "spider web" platform structure on Kronos island and that's not even a fan-service line.

Ultimately I think there was a deliberate choice here for Frontiers to be a stock-take of series continuity since they're now placing a bigger focus on the world and lore of the series. This doesn't feel anywhere near as pandering as ANOTHER Green Hill level to me. In the cutscenes themselves references to past games tend to be relatively well placed. The only ones that really felt a little jarring where the Sonic 3K flashback, literally using a screenshot of the sprite art, and Tails' comparison to Dark Gia where, even as an Unleashed fan, it did feel a little clunky.

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On 1/11/2023 at 1:59 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

But then there is what I call "running around dialogue" like  "At this point I wouldn't mind Shadow lending me a hand" or "Parts of these islands are really lovely. I should bring Cream here sometime". Those are neither funny, insightful or clever, it's just reference for reference sake. Best I can say is that Flynn tries to make them feel somewhat natural (Sonic comparing Omega to robot in front of him).

This was the biggest problem with Frontiers' writing for me. I understand Frontiers also has the weight of being a game that's trying to make sense of the sonic timeline/canon, but some of Sonic's comments just feel really out of place. When we first learned Ian was going to be behind the writing, this is the kind of thing I feared would be the end result.

That being said, Ian's writing in Frontiers is a lot tamer in terms of referencing as it could have been. I was extremely glad when I finished the game and realized there wasn't a reference to a past song/quote shoved in and seeming really out of places. I really hope we start cutting back on the fluff references from here on out. I assume Frontiers was Ian trying to see what all he could get away with, which considering Sticks of all characters was allowed makes me think he can probably get away with quite a bit.

Some of Frontiers' callbacks were annoying, but luckily none of them reached the levels of IDW's "You aren't even good enough to be my fake" callback in terms of being groan-inducing.

Needless to say, Frontiers' writing under Ian could've been a lot worse than it was. Restraint is nice.

Spoiler

Though there are some parts where you could tell me Pontaff was still the main writer and I'd have believed you without hesitation

 

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5 hours ago, PickleBrows said:

I think individual opinions on this is going to MASSIVELY vary depending on how much of the idle/exploration idle text you manage to trigger during a playthrough.

I think that those are pretty much inconsequential. They're free to have some, and are generally welcome and harmless.

The problematic ones I criticized about are really the ones dropped in dialogs.

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I think as regards references, it’s usually ideal to make ones that don’t backfire and alienate people who don’t get them.  The second live-action Sonic movie is probably the gold standard of that ideal, as it’s references not only don’t confuse people who don’t know what is being referenced, but most will still function as cool/funny moments.  “Mean Bean” is a deep-cut reference but even if you don’t know that, it’s still a cute rhyme.  Sonic doing the Adventure box art pose during his dance-off is also an aging reference, but if you don’t get it, you still have the coolness of Sonic voguing in midair.  Super Sonic thrashing up the giant robot and then lightly tapping it to finish it off is a Sonic 06 reference but even if you don’t know that, it’s still a badass flex.  

A more iffy example is the crossover special with OK KO.  Most of the references won’t even be recognized as such by people who don’t get them, but it’s a mostly comedy-centric series and so that particular episode, having staked all of its jokes on Sonic references, is not going to be funny if you don’t understand them.

Sonic Frontiers goes way beyond that.  Several people here have observed the distinction between references that have a plot purpose, and those that only seem to exist so Ian can flex on us/so they could apologize for poor characterization in the “Meta Era”, but all of those observations were being made by people who still understand the references even when they don’t like them.  For people who DON’T understand them, they’re likely to be truly jarring.  The best they might do for such people is convince them to dig back into Sonic history, but they’re not well suited for that either, since as noted in game dialogue you can’t just shove in a footnote the way you would in a book.

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On 1/11/2023 at 4:38 AM, Red Hot Jack said:

Meta refers to 4th wall breaking and Sonic did that in Colors, and in Boom all the time.

No it doesn't.

Breaking the 4th wall is characters acknowledging the medium they're in and possibly the fact that they're fictional along with addressing the audience.

Being Meta is a form of self-awareness...being self-referential to the series specifically or storytelling devices commonly used in fiction. The acknowledgement of these things by a character don't require a 4th wall break.

Tails wondering where Sonic keeps all the rings he collects or that Goal joke from Sonic Frontiers, gameplay elements that don't necessarily work in the story if you want it to seem like a real world. It works as a throwaway joke and it's not breaking the 4th wall, it's specifically referring to things in the games as if they have a function for Sonic's world being a believable place.

---

That is to say Sonic Frontiers having Sonic reference things from the series isn't a Meta thing, it's not even related.

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13 hours ago, StaticMania said:

No it doesn't.

Breaking the 4th wall is characters acknowledging the medium they're in and possibly the fact that they're fictional along with addressing the audience.

Being Meta is a form of self-awareness...being self-referential to the series specifically or storytelling devices commonly used in fiction. The acknowledgement of these things by a character don't require a 4th wall break.

Tails wondering where Sonic keeps all the rings he collects or that Goal joke from Sonic Frontiers, gameplay elements that don't necessarily work in the story if you want it to seem like a real world. It works as a throwaway joke and it's not breaking the 4th wall, it's specifically referring to things in the games as if they have a function for Sonic's world being a believable place.

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That is to say Sonic Frontiers having Sonic reference things from the series isn't a Meta thing, it's not even related.

I meant fans refer to it as the "Meta era", I get it it's a dumb name andl all that, I'm just saying they named it that because it alludes to the comedic tone and dialogues of the plot. In general I think the Colors - Forces period had a focus on getting Sonic platforming right, which was hit and miss depending on the game or within the games themselves, but man they didn't give a shit about the story and lore, it was about other elements to be fair. ST's goal was probably to find the right formula to build on future games, but there was also barely any attempt (maybe Forces) at making a choesive universe.

On 1/11/2023 at 12:18 PM, Badnik Mechanic said:

Mate...

They didn't even name the zones.

Mate. It's literally Green Hill, Chemical Plant and Sky Sanctuary. Like I care about the names of cyberspace stages. What I don't understand is why "Eternal Highway" (name of the City stage apparently) is not simply Radical Highway, it certainly looks like it, we even have GUN vehicles in it, which are stated to be from GUN explicitly, but it's apparently a new stage.

If you could explain and elaborate why you don't like the game instead of barely commenting on it, it would help me understand more.

I found the identity of the game in various sectors:

The inspired designs of the enemies which sound like advanced technology from the past, there is this vibe of ancient but avanguard technology in general in the game. Same for other elements such as cyberspace portals and cyberspace scenery itself.

The music also creates an atmosphere, in Starfall Islands, which contrats to the digital sound and look of cyberspace, I found identity in the contrast between nature of the islands vs cyberspace (speaking in general).

The tone, which is different from other games until Forces, wants to establish a universe with references to past events and characters, even though they don't appear all together because these islands are literally unknown. This is literally Ian Flynn's direction, to create a larger canon, I get it not everyone likes that.

Obviously, Frontiers is not a solid perfect game, it's new ideas mixed with old ideas revisited, of course I wish we didn't get GHZ, CPZ etc. for the milionth time, or reused assets, reused level design, I don't even like the game completely, I just appreciate this whole trying by ST and Kishimoto mostly, it's a start to improve upon as other folks mentioned.

If anything, the vibe I get in the game for the "lack of identity argument" might be that the Kronos scenery is kinda a BotW rip-off, cyberspace is GHZ, CPZ etc. enemies look generic and that's it, if we want to reduce the game to that. But at least here we got cool designs IMO like Sage, the guardians, some of the titans and the kocos.

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