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Do you think Sonic Frontiers will change how fanservice is regarded/written?


Scritch the Cat

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4 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Mate. It's literally Green Hill, Chemical Plant and Sky Sanctuary. Like I care about the names of cyberspace stages.

Yes...

Thank you for agreeing with my comment that the game lacks any identity of its own.

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21 minutes ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

Yes...

Thank you for agreeing with my comment that the game lacks any identity of its own.

He didn't though. No idea where you go that idea from.

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3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

He didn't though. No idea where you go that idea from.

Re-using level layouts and names isn't a sign of a lack of unique identity to you?

 

Edit: Sorry I got that wrong. Reusing level layouts and themes isn't a lack of unique identity to you?

I forgot the game doesn't actually name its zones.... ... hey wait a second!

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5 minutes ago, Badnik Mechanic said:

Re-using level layouts and names isn't a sign of a lack of unique identity to you?

Edit: Sorry I got that wrong. Reusing level layouts and themes isn't a lack of unique identity to you?

I forgot the game doesn't actually name its zones.... ... hey wait a second!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point. It doesn't really explain your logic in thinking that @Red Hot Jackagreed with you on your opinion of this game not having an identity, when his post was clearly in contrast to your ideal there.

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21 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point. It doesn't really explain your logic in thinking that @Red Hot Jackagreed with you on your opinion of this game not having an identity, when his post was clearly in contrast to your ideal there.

I'm pretty certain the re-using of level layouts was more of a cost-cutting measure for the most part to get as many special stages as they could for this game than anything else. I'm not sure how much "identity" factored in this situation.  

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Just now, Zoomzeta said:

I'm pretty certain the re-using of level layouts was more of a cost-cutting measure for the most part to get as many special stages as they could for this game than anything else. I'm not sure how much "identity" factored in this situation.  

Yeah, the game still has its own identity. The re-using of stage themes, for what wasn't even the main bulk of the game, doesn't really affect that.

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I'm gonna go the opposite way and say that if you have to stand around for thirty minutes to hear all this dialogue, the game isn't reference heavy.

Sonic Heroes is honestly a better example of that than frontier is, they talked about all the previous games a lot.

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36 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Sonic Heroes is honestly a better example of that than frontier is, they talked about all the previous games a lot.

No they didn't...

Amy mentions 2 Adventure levels.

Omega references Gamma and Beta.

Knuckles references Mushroom Hill.

---

2 of these are context sensitive stage dialogue, 1 is an idle quote, and 1 only even happens if you get an E rank with that character in the lead.

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Honestly, if we look at the bottom line, are these fan service/callbacks really such a big deal? Does it really destroy the gaming experience? My 12 year old nephew who played Frontiers had only played SA2 as his only previous Sonic game and he really could not care less about the callbacks he doesn't get. Its a nice touch for the long time fans. Maybe a little distracting for those new to the Sonic world, but hardly a deal breaker. 

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9 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point. It doesn't really explain your logic in thinking that @Red Hot Jackagreed with you on your opinion of this game not having an identity, when his post was clearly in contrast to your ideal there.

I think Jack’s point was that there isn’t a big reason to name levels when they all draw from just a small handful of motifs.  It’s accurate, but well, it just takes us back to a problem many of us have had with this game since before it was even released.

I’m guessing that in an alternate timeline when the levels were called things like Benny Hill Zone, Hank Hill Zone, and Cypress Hill Zone, fans would instead disparage them for making a bad attempt to hide how they were all just Green Hill Zone again.  So again, the best solution to all of this is just to not make levels that are Green Hill Zone again.

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It's far, far from the worst of the game's problems, but I do think it would help a bit if they had given the cyberspace levels individual names. Names establish a connection, a sense of familiarity, far more than just a pair of numbers. Hell I'd wager part of the reason we get so bothered over the reuse of GHZ is that giving it a name grounds it as a specific location, compared to if it was only ever "World 1". And even if it was as simple as just a bunch of "*whatever* Hill Zone"s, that would at least reinforce the idea that they're mixed up bits of Sonic's memories.

Would we consciously acknowledge it, in the hypothetical timeline where that's what we got, and never considered not having names? Probably not. But I feel the whole thing would rankle slightly less.

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15 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

He didn't though. No idea where you go that idea from.

He's just using sarcasm. Eh, I don't think he wants to discuss the game.

Anyway... what is new about this? Is it a Frontiers exclusive issue?

Generations reused level themes, admittely they were the first time and changed a lot of assets.

Lost World recycled a lot of ideas.

Forces modified some of the zones but still used Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Death Egg yet again.

Mania reused 8 out of 12 zones too, granted they were well designed this time but it was still a classic "best of" celebration with barely new ideas.

Spin-offs reuse past zones too. Okay.

Frontiers was supposed the next big game and it still recycled Green Hill etc. but it's not a big issue because cyberspace is barely the focus here, it's legit a way to say "if you don't like our new thing, the open zone, you can always go back playing traditional Sonic stages", or a way to bridge old and new, that's how I got it.

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I like the references and callbacks in Frontiers and I hope, pray, and wish upon a giant star they double down on it the next game or dlc or at least if they tone it down keep referals of characters from idw in. Frontiers imo (just from what ive seen around some younger fans) is they are having a hard time grasping large stories in sonic games or at least understanding they are not just slammed in for the sake of teehee lets refer to this character for no reason or refer to dark gaias power just for the hell of it. It is called world building and tying up a loose ribbon that has been fluttering in the wind longer than Sonic did trying to run across the egg carrier in SA1. Sega has never really focused on the story aspect of the games and treated each at best as its own thing. Sure a few things carry over such as well actually not much in the past but now they seem to really want to at least going forward give the story a sense of direction. The fanservice elements is showing that these other characters exist still and are out there somewhere. And to show fans they could show up in the future or that they are still involved in Sonics life to some extent while in the past going from game to game how was I to know if cream was still around, Or if sticks was existing in the timeline of colors and so on. You didn't. Here they are setting up a playng field and hopefully they keep to it. This way fans will not have to write in asking if so and so is still around or what they have been up to like people that STILL have not let go of the freedom fighters asking IAN almost every other bumblekast if they would come back and him giving the exact same if they do they wont be the same. 

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17 hours ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

 

Cheap references isn't really world building, it's just cheap references. Why is the cheap part bad? Because it actively takes away from the existing story its telling, or just sounds disjointed. Concluding the complaints about it to just younger fans not understanding large stories is strange.

And Sonic Team has been focusing on story (in the '00s mainly, except maybe Sonic Heroes). Story isn't just continuity connections. It's well, story of an individual game itself. A dialogue reference to the past is nice, but it's not something needed if it doesn't help the story You don't need a reminder when Sonic goes super in the past, you know he does already, just as you don't need to know balloons are in Spagonia because you jump on some completely different balloons in Frontiers. And fan service doesn't placate fans, if anything just opens more questions to be asked, like IDW's continuity. Bumblekast question submissions probably gets more popular by the year at this point.

Also how did you put in a diss to the Freedom Fighter fans here lol.

 

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8 hours ago, jungle_penguins said:

Cheap references isn't really world building, it's just cheap references. Why is the cheap part bad? Because it actively takes away from the existing story its telling, or just sounds disjointed. Concluding the complaints about it to just younger fans not understanding large stories is strange.

And Sonic Team has been focusing on story (in the '00s mainly, except maybe Sonic Heroes). Story isn't just continuity connections. It's well, story of an individual game itself. A dialogue reference to the past is nice, but it's not something needed if it doesn't help the story You don't need a reminder when Sonic goes super in the past, you know he does already, just as you don't need to know balloons are in Spagonia because you jump on some completely different balloons in Frontiers. And fan service doesn't placate fans, if anything just opens more questions to be asked, like IDW's continuity. Bumblekast question submissions probably gets more popular by the year at this point.

Also how did you put in a diss to the Freedom Fighter fans here lol.

Cheap references are in the eye of the beholder. And a majority of them you literally have to spend in the world wondering before over half trigger.  Tangle, Sticks, and if you never bother to get the egg memos. A majority of these you never would come across unless you take the time to go out your way to find them.  And you say cheap And i will again say world building. Sega has NEVER tried to bother focusing on their stories and tosses ideas around or forgets things and leaves it up to future writers to fill in the  gaps. Such as the famous why isnt the moon still destroyed in other games and Segas responses its just on the opposite side. 

The thing with this fandom is the need for many to speak for the entire fandom. Fan service does not placate fans? Again who are these fans not being placated? I know many both say twitter and youtube communitys who love the callbacks and such. Again its world building. Its going forward setting up a story that is not just ended in one game. Do the events of SA1 matter to 2? No. Do the events of SA1 and 2 matter to Forces (no but unless you factor in shadow being a cast member now than yes you could argue that in good faith) Going forward they have stated they want Frontiers to be the path going forward for the series and I say good for them.

And its not a diss its a literal fact. Ian is giving us answers without people needing to write to ask the exact same thing every week.

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1 hour ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

world building.

World building isn't referencing something that happened before...it's things about the setting that makes it feel real and lived in.

If Sonic had good world building to begin with, these things wouldn't even be simple references...but constants of the setting.

Knowing that the stories of other games actually happened doesn't do anything for making Sonic's world feel like a lively place that's worth thinking about.

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What world building have we had in Sonic that is continous outside Characters from past games showing up. I am talking actions they took in the past going forward. Such as the moon being blown up. No game to my knowledge talks about it. Outside I think I recall on game showing a flashback mention of chaos flooding station square most all games stories are self contained inside themselves. Frontiers is a new semi slate with Ian being a writer going forward. If going by them saying they want to tie all stories together in the future to clean things up then more than all likelyhood the stories are going to be like the comics. Going in arcs, showing events from past games going forward. Someone breaks a vase in this game then next game the consequence of breaking said vase is more than likely going to appear or be referenced.

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On 1/15/2023 at 12:33 PM, Darkvizardberrytan said:

Its going forward setting up a story that is not just ended in one game. Do the events of SA1 matter to 2? No.

Um, yeah; actually they do.  Tails' newfound bravery and mechanical aptitude are a direct outgrowth of his resolve in SA1, and you see a newspaper referencing his plot there, too.  Amy has also succeeded in becoming more competent; though you only see most of it in that game's multiplayer, it gets more highlighted in Sonic Heroes and Sonic Battle.  Chao also have an increased presence in SA2.

On 1/15/2023 at 2:38 PM, StaticMania said:

World building isn't referencing something that happened before...it's things about the setting that makes it feel real and lived in.

If Sonic had good world building to begin with, these things wouldn't even be simple references...but constants of the setting.

Knowing that the stories of other games actually happened doesn't do anything for making Sonic's world feel like a lively place that's worth thinking about.

Depressingly, one of the biggest examples of the Sonic series attempting to maintain some consistent lore and worldbuilding was Shadow the Hedgehog.  Moon not withstanding, the game was certainly interested in revisiting old level archetypes and most of the time there was a plot excuse for them.  It's a shame the writing and the tryhard edginess polluted it all, but that and Sonic 06 also have me wondering if they're responsible for Sonic Team dropping that self-referential thing for a time.  The less continuity mattered, the more they could act like those two games never existed.

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3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Depressingly, one of the biggest examples of the Sonic series attempting to maintain some consistent lore and worldbuilding was Shadow the Hedgehog.  Moon not withstanding, the game was certainly interested in revisiting old level archetypes and most of the time there was a plot excuse for them.  It's a shame the writing and the tryhard edginess polluted it all, but that and Sonic 06 also have me wondering if they're responsible for Sonic Team dropping that self-referential thing for a time.  The less continuity mattered, the more they could act like those two games never existed.

Given SEGA' penchant for pretty much throwing out the baby with the bathwater whenever they have a major setback, I wouldn't be surprised.

While referential material wasn't necessarily thrown out in the wake of Shadow, if they considered both it and Sonic 06 to be beacons of the problems, well, it certain tracks, given how starting with Unleashed, the games certainly did not feel as well connected in terms of world pieces and whatnot, until something like Forces ironically enough, which re-established some of the more recurring zones as regular places on the map.

Frontiers feels like a culmination of that return to form in a sense.

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18 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Given SEGA' penchant for pretty much throwing out the baby with the bathwater whenever they have a major setback, I wouldn't be surprised.

While referential material wasn't necessarily thrown out in the wake of Shadow, if they considered both it and Sonic 06 to be beacons of the problems, well, it certain tracks, given how starting with Unleashed, the games certainly did not feel as well connected in terms of world pieces and whatnot, until something like Forces ironically enough, which re-established some of the more recurring zones as regular places on the map.

Frontiers feels like a culmination of that return to form in a sense.

The impression I get from that period is that SEGA was really unsure of what sort of world Sonic "should" inhabit, so they just spitballed ideas.  While the human character designs in Sonic Unleashed have become well-appreciated in retrospect, the game as a whole had too many contentious elements for that to catch on, and so for most games afterward SEGA has just gone the Isekai route, making Sonic a visitor to the many weird-looking worlds they set the games in to justify why he didn't fit in.  Of course, chances are that it never really mattered that much; if they had ever found their way back to AAA gaming they probably would have stuck with whatever sort of worldbuilding they had at that time.  But with this series they had established so much negative reputation that even releasing an unambiguously good game wouldn't have been enough; they'd have to release several unambiguously good games in succession.

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I agree Shadow the Hedgehog's critical and fan response caused a perhaps demotivation to keep elements together. I think 2006 more so caused an aversion to just a larger cast (gameplay and/or story), leading to Unleashed's smaller cast (and perhaps Secret Rings' direction). Mainly because in a way, 2006 was a soft reboot already, but kept the existing characters (it's all vague references to the past too).

Speaking of, Shadow the Hedgehog I think does the referential stuff much better than Frontiers. Game's an absolute confusing mess but its attempt I find much more interesting and fun. Let them do a IDW adaptation Sega.

 

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10 hours ago, jungle_penguins said:

Speaking of, Shadow the Hedgehog I think does the referential stuff much better than Frontiers. Game's an absolute confusing mess but its attempt I find much more interesting and fun. Let them do a IDW adaptation Sega.

Unfortunately, doing an adaptation of that game would be problematic in almost any direction they took it.  If they kept the guns in they'd maintain the hatred they always had, but if they took the guns out then at least some people would also accuse them of watering it down.  Having Maria be graphically murdered might also be an issue; it's been deemed a key part of Shadow's identity by people who are sick of his post-06 portrayal as a gratuitous grump, but having it would also smack of everything many people grew to hate about the time this series took itself way too seriously.  You'd even have people from the meta side of Sonic fanculture irritated if they didn't include the "Damn Fourth Chaos Emerald" line.  Also let's face it; Marvel already beat the "It's amnesia again" bit into the ground with Wolverine and even as early as Sonic Heroes people were getting sick of that with Shadow.

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K, well let's go through them.

7 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Unfortunately, doing an adaptation of that game would be problematic in almost any direction they took it.  If they kept the guns in they'd maintain the hatred they always had, but if they took the guns out then at least some people would also accuse them of watering it down.

Take the guns out anyway. Anyone who hates it can suck it up and deal with it. It's not gonna hurt an adaptation without them as much as they think it will as Shadow's more than capable of simply shooting people with Chaos Spears instead of bullets.

7 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Having Maria be graphically murdered might also be an issue; it's been deemed a key part of Shadow's identity by people who are sick of his post-06 portrayal as a gratuitous grump, but having it would also smack of everything many people grew to hate about the time this series took itself way too seriously. 

Keep Maria's death and tell everyone against it to grow a spine and deal with it. That was the least of this franchise's problem and anyone hung up on it is just looking for some low hanging fruit to complain about and fight over.

7 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

You'd even have people from the meta side of Sonic fanculture irritated if they didn't include the "Damn Fourth Chaos Emerald" line.  Also let's face it; Marvel already beat the "It's amnesia again" bit into the ground with Wolverine and even as early as Sonic Heroes people were getting sick of that with Shadow.

M'kay, so don't do an amnesia plot (honestly, they didn't even need to do one to begin with looking back). Not sure how to approach the "Damn Fourth Chaos Emerald" line, as I personally wouldn't care if they took it out. But I'm one who actually defended the game on these forums back in the day (don't ask, I was 15 and stupid in the edge phase at the time), so if they're willing to give it a second chance with an adaptation I can't see any problems (actual problems) with not bothering with amnesia or the "Damn Fourth Chaos Emerald" meme. 

I don't really think a ShTH adaptation would be that hard, just don't do the stupid things the games did at the time and you're already doing a better job on that front alone.

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I don't really think a ShTH adaptation would be that hard, just don't do the stupid things the games did at the time and you're already doing a better job on that front alone.

The line for what is stupid and what isn't feels very arbitrary here, for a game where the premise you'd be adapting is an end times war between aliens, the military, and Eggman all at once

Why not do what the Sonic series already does best at and just... double down on the ridiculousness to the point no one has a problem with it, like the entire opening for SA2. The guns are a gameplay mechanic that comes from stealing the enemy's weapon; throw john wick action into the mix and there is a significantly higher chance of people losing their minds in the same way the GUN truck works. Anime energy blast attacks is just another form of edge that "doesn't fit" Sonic to begin with; why even touch ShTH to begin with if you want to avoid what doesn't fit the series normally?

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

The line for what is stupid and what isn't feels very arbitrary here, for a game where the premise you'd be adapting is an end times war between aliens, the military, and Eggman all at once

I think it's pretty obvious:

  • No realistic guns in Shadow's hands (you can have guns, just don't have Shadow using them)
  • Limit or remove cursing
  • Maybe do away with the amnesia sub-plot

That's it. You don't have to change the story much (which I would if I had the chance), just those three listed.

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

Why not do what the Sonic series already does best at and just... double down on the ridiculousness to the point no one has a problem with it, like the entire opening for SA2. The guns are a gameplay mechanic that comes from stealing the enemy's weapon; throw john wick action into the mix and there is a significantly higher chance of people losing their minds in the same way the GUN truck works. Anime energy blasts is just another form of edge that "doesn't fit" Sonic to begin with; why even touch ShTH to begin with if you want to avoid what doesn't fit the series normally?

Because my aim was to eliminate the most obvious issues people focused on that were controversial over the ones that weren't, not make it a bigger meme than it already was for all the wrong reasons. "Anime energy blasts" is such a generic staple next to "Super Powered McGuffins" that anyone trying to make an issue out of that over the contrast of a cartoony hedgehog holding a realistic submachine gun is complaining for the sake of complaining.

I'd like to think people are capable of being more intelectually honest than that inspite of how easy it is for someone to use any random thing as a pretext to complain, much as people are all too eager to do over the internet.

Nothings stopping it from being entertaining, but what makes you think doubling down on the controversial aspects that led to the first noticable schism in this franchise would be an even better idea given how we already saw how that played out the first time? That would be akin to doubling down on the Elise kissing Sonic scene in 06 by giving him full tongue in a potential 06 adaptation--an exaggeration, but you see what I'm getting at here.

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