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Should Shadow be a jerk?


MetalSkulkBane

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First, Shadow never said that "stealing candy from the baby would be fine by me". I'm tired of this misinformed meme and it's not even a grammatically natural thing to say. He said, "it's easy like (yaya yada) which is fine by me". Things being easy is fine by him.

But back to the topic. I think anyone who cares even a little about Shadow agrees he's not a villain. At worst he's a  "doing a bad thing for a good reason. Now let me kill Emerl/Mr. Tinker/ Cosmo" person, he loves this one.

But should he be this "bah, fun is for losers" antisocial type? Because I always pinned him closer to Batman's philosophy of "who has time for parties, when all crime in the world wasn't stopped yet" kinda deal. IDK, I guess being antisocial isn't automatically a bad thing, Raven from "Teen Titans" was a beloved character. I'm trying to figure out what level of "detachment" would work best for Shadow.

Thoughts?

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It's not a question of "should he be one", he just kind of is one in the games most of the time until someone he trusts sets him straight. I think he'd be a more interesting character if he grew out of that a little but I'm fine with him the way he is too. Too many Sonic characters are friendly.
 

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I know there are people here who want the world of Sonic to be a nuanced story about characters that grow and develop in a way the series has never been especially capable of telling...

But let's throw that all away and take them as broad archetypes to tell dumb cartoon stories. Yes, Shadow should be a jerk, and they should be having a lot of fun with that. As a cartoon clown once said, "The pie gag is only funny when the sap's got dignity."

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Ideally that level of detachment vs attachment should be explored, like all of the best stories involving Batman and Raven. Even SA2 makes great use of it, so it's a shame it's basically fallen to the wayside for the character's central premise.

Since it isn't, though, I believe the focus should be on how that detachment is framed, first and foremost. You can choose to play it up to emphasize how poorly he works with others, like IDW attempts, or you can ignore it as flavor text like the games do, reserved for only how he treats his teammates in dialog alone. You can choose to frame that detachment in how wrong it is, like IDW or his initial attempts on Cosmo's life, or you can justify it ala Batman "moments" where he's actually completely on top of things, just being incredibly cold about it simultaneously. The latter is one of the most popular tropes for so-called badass characters, so it would obviously help his popularity issues out a lot if it was utilized instead.

To throw a wrench into all of that, though, you have characters like Bakugo, which initially revel in how much of a jerk they are and their inexplicable popularity in the face of it. "Bad boys" for the sake of it can be an anomaly of popularity in and of itself, which thankfully Shadow doesn't have to deal with yet; let's steer clear of that for now lol

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Shadow can be a jerk and he can be ruthless, since he's always been characterized as being both of those things to a degree. He's also always had a bit of an ego, even after the memory loss. The problem now more so is that he's aggressive and less calculated than before, which harms his characterization since now (especially in the comics) he's more like a softer version of Vegeta. Shadow was a lot of things in SA2 and Heroes but I can't actually remember a scene where he was flat-out angry or belligerent for no reason, when he's like that all the time now. He's also just a lot less smart, which I suppose makes him less predictable? But again it comes at the cost of some of his characterization.

When Shadow was fighting Sonic on Green Forest, he bailed the fight as soon as he realized the island was going to blow up and he was at risk of getting killed. When Sonic advises Shadow that he'd be in mortal danger by fighting Zombots and that they should run? He jumps right in and gets infected. Maybe his memory loss made him dumber (that would explain a lot of non-canon events in Shadow), but even in Forces and 06 he usually handled things fairly pragmatically. 

So sure, Shadow can be a jerk, but that can't be all he is.

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6 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

When Shadow was fighting Sonic on Green Forest, he bailed the fight as soon as he realized the island was going to blow up and he was at risk of getting killed.

I mean he knew the island was going to blow up long before that. But he still wasted time antagonizing and fighting Sonic to the point that he and Rouge only made it out by the skin of their teeth. If Eggman had radioed in just seconds later that would've been it.

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20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean he knew the island was going to blow up long before that. But he still wasted time antagonizing and fighting Sonic to the point that he and Rouge only made it out by the skin of their teeth. If Eggman had radioed in just seconds later that would've been it.

I rationalize that as Shadow having underestimated Sonic's abilities and accidentally wasting time due to getting caught up in the fight for longer than he'd anticipated. That's what his pre-battle and mid-battle dialogue seems to indicate, saying that Sonic wouldn't get the chance to try anything (specifically saying "I'll end this quick." in the JP script). But that's a fair enough point since the game doesn't really dwell on that.

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Given his background history, its pretty understandable Shadow can be somewhat of a jerk at times. That stems in part I think from his lack of trust in others and how the only person that truly cares for him met an untimely death. 

As for him not thinking things through, and all that, that might have more to do with the weaknesses of the writers and directors in portraying him and limitations of particular games than Shadow as a character. 

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The question shouldn't be "Should Shadow be a jerk", but rather why is he a jerk. His backstory kind of justifies his attitude a bit, but that backstory isn't really relevant to the series nowadays, so his attitude can be somewhat off-putting without that tragic framing. Take away the dead 12 year old girl and all you have is just a guy with a huge stick up his ass for no discernable reason. Shadow got away with his attitude before when he was a central protagonist and was actually able to accomplish things, but now that he's mostly a supporting character who has no real impact on the narrative, that attitude can get real grating. I would prefer if the series returned to having more dynamic characterization and allow him to grow out of it, but I get why that's not viable in the long term, which is why him and everyone else are kept mostly static nowadays; if they're just gonna keep him static and a jackass, at least let him do cool shit. 

5 hours ago, The Deleter said:

To throw a wrench into all of that, though, you have characters like Bakugo, which initially revel in how much of a jerk they are and their inexplicable popularity in the face of it. "Bad boys" for the sake of it can be an anomaly of popularity in and of itself, which thankfully Shadow doesn't have to deal with yet; let's steer clear of that for now lol

I think this is selling Bakugo really short as a character. And hilariously, Bakugo tends to have a similar problem that Shadow has in that a lot of people who don't care for them or hate them outright just straight up ignore the development the characters have actually went through. Now granted, the stories don't really help when they over emphasize their more...obnoxious traits in spite of said development, and the fact that their popularty means they tend to eclipse more likable members of the cast, which just earns them more ire from their detractors. 

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8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The question shouldn't be "Should Shadow be a jerk", but rather why is he a jerk. His backstory kind of justifies his attitude a bit, but that backstory isn't really relevant to the series nowadays, so his attitude can be somewhat off-putting without that tragic framing. Take away the dead 12 year old girl and all you have is just a guy with a huge stick up his ass for no discernable reason.

I think it mostly stems from them wanting to help strengthen the "Hero or Renegade?" question from Shadow the Hedgehog, even though the climax of SA2 and Heroes still established that he's very much a good guy, just an at-first confused one. It didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now with how the stories post-Shadow still liked to flip-flop between whether he's some asshole or not. 

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6 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think it mostly stems from them wanting to help strengthen the "Hero or Renegade?" question from Shadow the Hedgehog, even though the climax of SA2 and Heroes still established that he's very much a good guy, just an at-first confused one. It didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now with how the stories post-Shadow still liked to flip-flop between whether he's some asshole or not. 

Like Wraith said tho, if he was just a straight up nice good guy then he'd literally be no different than any other Sonic character, most of which are mostly just nice good guys already after their stories have been resolved.

 

I'm not saying Shadow being a jackass is necessary a good thing, but it at least sets him apart from the rest of the cast and I'm sure that's the intent.

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I think he should not be a complete jerk. Overly serious, a bit stubborn and occasionally aggressive with people who go against him and his opinions (even the heroes at times), ok, but I don't see him being a jerk a good way to execute his character.

I would rather have Knuckles being the jerk from time to time, like, getting in the way of Sonic to challenge him to see who's stronger (despite being an obstacle and giving more time to the villain to complete their plan), stuff like that... he's Sonic's rival and he did challenge him multiple times in the past, tricked or not.

Rouge can be a jerk, betraying the heroes for the sake of her personal goals, no matter what happens to the world.

But Shadow, I don't think he should. I liked SA2's Shadow, but there's nothing of that character left nowadays.

EDIT: Hopefully things will change for Shadow when Paramount will reintroduce him from scratch by retelling the adaptation of SA2's story in the movies... if they get his personality right and it will have influence on the games, he will have a chance to be back at his former self.

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There is fun to him being a jerk. Even simple sucker punch & "learn to focus" in Prime got a chuckle out of me. IDW issue 19 was problematic but his initial trash talking at Sonic was fair (at very least you understood where he's coming from).

But I watch a Bumblekast and a lot of "fun activities" type of question just go "and Shadow wouldn't participate, he hates fun". And that really paints a rather depressing portrait of the character. I know I should take those answer with same grain of salt as Twitter Takeovers, but they still represent the general view of the character.

I guess the idea is he's supposue to be "jerk with heart of gold" type, but in smaller roles (which is all he gets these days) he comes of just as a "jerk" instead.

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Shadow is at his best when he's a jerk and arrogant. It's been over a decade, but I remember him being really funny in Free Riders. He can have more depth than that, but siphoning off his personality will just make him boring like in 06.

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The problems with Shadow go much deeper than if he's a dick or not. He is a dick, its just who he is, love it or hate it.

The problem is that he has no greater narrative purpose besides being a dick nowadays. All of his appearances are extremely limited and don't give him much material to work with.

He doesn't participate in anything, or interact with anyone so it begs the question of what exactly is he meant to do if he can't do anything?

I get the feeling they're reluctant to use him in a bigger capacity due to his potential to overshadow Sonic and just opt to limit his overall presence to mitigate that, but it ultimately leads to him having very shallow appearances.

 

Like I said, he could get away with being a dick if he was actually allowed to do something relevant. 

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8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

There is fun to him being a jerk. Even simple sucker punch & "learn to focus" in Prime got a chuckle out of me. IDW issue 19 was problematic but his initial trash talking at Sonic was fair (at very least you understood where he's coming from).

But I watch a Bumblekast and a lot of "fun activities" type of question just go "and Shadow wouldn't participate, he hates fun". And that really paints a rather depressing portrait of the character. I know I should take those answer with same grain of salt as Twitter Takeovers, but they still represent the general view of the character.

I guess the idea is he's supposue to be "jerk with heart of gold" type, but in smaller roles (which is all he gets these days) he comes of just as a "jerk" instead.

I'd say, as long as it doesn't overshadow the rest of his personality traits. He can also be fiercely loyal towards Team Dark. Yeah, he can also be arrogant but not really a show off to the same extent as Sonic. (Like the posing and dancing that Sonic does.)

When Shadow feels like Shadow, (In my opinion.) he is usually a jerk when justified. Whether it being competing for something or dealing with somebody in his way. Which is why I've been enjoying him in Sonic Prime. Mind you, I find Sonic's portrayal in Prime to be very annoying, so Shadow beating the snot outta him was a highlight, regardless.

I can't agree with the Bumblekast take on Shadow participating in activities either. It feels more like that he doesn't know how to have fun when you consider his time on the ARK with Maria. All they could do was talk and speculate as to what was down on Earth. By the time he finally made it to Earth, his no nonsense attitude had stuck due to what happened with Maria. Though he clearly gets some enjoyment out of showing off his powers, like how he did while messing with Sonic in their first meeting.

I also want Shadow to be more than this jerk the mandates want him to be for another simple reason that will probably be controversial.

 I. Hate. Dragonball [Insert letter here]

So having Shadow be referred to as Vegeta, just bugs the hell outta me! Lol

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Shadow being a jerk is fine, but he needs a reason for being a jerk. And his arc in SA2 and ShTH pretty much established why. And there's plenty you can establish after the fact as to why he remains a jerk, but the crux of the matter is that he needs a reason for being the kind of asshole he is.

That lack of a reason is partially why people looked at him with raised eyebrows in Boom (although, sidenote, my knowledge of Boom is incredibly miniscule due to disinterest in that sub-franchise, so I'm definitely missing a lot of details here that anyone is welcome to fill in).

With that said, he shouldn't be a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. That is so blatantly 2-dimensional a character that it's no surprise why he's reigniting a lot of talk about his portrayal. A jerk with understandable reasons is one that people can accept than one with little-to-no reasons, which is just being a petty bully.

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And I feel like it's a matter of his attitude being completely exaggerated; Shadow is no-nonsense and to the point, but that's not the same as being actively hostile and aggressive. 

He used to be pretty rational and sensible even when he was at odds with the other heroic characters and his goals made sense. Shadow is arrogant enough to assume his way of doing things is right and he's powerful enough to enforce that, and independent enough that he limits his interaction with others.

But without that context to establish his attitude, his actions no longer make any sense in the story and once the audience no longer understands his motivations, it gets hard to pin him down.

 

I have no idea what happened behind the scenes for them to mischaracterize him so badly.

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Different angle. How do you feel about the idea that "Shadow doesn't do fun"?

Personally, I could see Shadow from 3 angles.

1) I could see "Batman take",  that he has no time for fun, he promised Maria to make the world a better place, so that's what he's doing. Obvious problem is that too often he's NOT doing anything. People see him as Piccolo, just kinda standing in the middle of nowhere with a serious face.

2) He could just be an introvert, who just prefers his alone time. That would be respectable, we don't have many enough characters like that in Sonic. Even Whisper has a bunch of friends in her back pocket. But what he does do in his spare time? Reads books? Meditating? Bonsai trees? The only thing that comes to mind was Archie's implication he likes taking care of his bike.

3) Or you know, he could just spend time with people. There is this great fan series "Christmas with Sonic" where his thing was being an amazing cook. And it sits well with me, Shadow is a perfectionist, he would spend time with people to either show off his skills or to seek challenges.
I mean, it's a popular idea that Sonic and Shadow regularly race each other for sport.

Either of those looks would be fine by me, but the current view of him seems to be "he doesn't do things, he's far too busy brooding, LOOOOOL".

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He could just prefer his alone time and enjoys his own company. But writers don't really know how to portray introverts like that and you can't really write a character who doesn't want to interact with people.

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Man, I see ya'll really have diverse takes on how Shadow could or should be handled.

Honestly, in regards to Shadow being too much of a jerk....that really only seems to be a problem in the comics at the moment. 

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There's nothing indicating that he should be one, He's just a introverted and stoic dude wishing to make up for not being able to save his "Family" per say 

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Shadow as a jerk can and has worked before, but I feel like that they tend to write him as nothing but a jerk lately. A good jerk character is one that has moments of niceness and humbleness when they're in the wrong, and one that gradually grows from an all around jerk to a more softened up jerk.

Shadow works best when he's a little bit of a jerk, but a well meaning one, not someone who acts like they're too good for things or is invincible/more powerful than they truly are like how he's sometimes shown to be.

Basically he needs to be balanced. You can't have the jerkiness without the moderate kindness.

That's my view at least.

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2 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

Shadow as a jerk can and has worked before, but I feel like that they tend to write him as nothing but a jerk lately. A good jerk character is one that has moments of niceness and humbleness when they're in the wrong, and one that gradually grows from an all around jerk to a more softened up jerk.

Shadow works best when he's a little bit of a jerk, but a well meaning one, not someone who acts like they're too good for things or is invincible/more powerful than they truly are like how he's sometimes shown to be.

Basically he needs to be balanced. You can't have the jerkiness without the moderate kindness.

That's my view at least.

Don't really recall one time he was ever a jerk to any of the characters at all, besides Sonic himself or Infinite, i never really image him being a bully to any of the Child Characters like Cream and Charmy, why would he? - he doesn't really know enough about them to do such, again he's a introverted kind of dude who keeps to himself besides a focus on a objective he needs to accomplish in a game 

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7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Different angle. How do you feel about the idea that "Shadow doesn't do fun"?

Very limiting and boring.

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Personally, I could see Shadow from 3 angles.

1) I could see "Batman take",  that he has no time for fun, he promised Maria to make the world a better place, so that's what he's doing. Obvious problem is that too often he's NOT doing anything. People see him as Piccolo, just kinda standing in the middle of nowhere with a serious face.

Batman/Bruce Wayne is a billionare, one of the the smartest people on his planet, and his wealth grants him so much time and freedom that it's believable for him to beat criminals to a pulp with his bare hands during his spare time. The "Batman take" is more he has so much prep time that you might as well call that his version of fun.

Seriously, the guy bankrolls the Justice League and build their Watchtower Space Station. For all of being the Ultimate Lifeform that he is, Shadow's a helluva lot lacking compared to Batman on that front.

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

2) He could just be an introvert, who just prefers his alone time. That would be respectable, we don't have many enough characters like that in Sonic. Even Whisper has a bunch of friends in her back pocket. But what he does do in his spare time? Reads books? Meditating? Bonsai trees? The only thing that comes to mind was Archie's implication he likes taking care of his bike.

Archie was his best take. Kinda wish Sega actually incorporated that take, cuz we probably wouldn't have this discussion otherwise.

But for some reason, when I picture an introvert Shadow, I think of him as someone who would spend time playing online games raging at his screen for someone screwing up in his game...don't ask me why, it was just a funny idea that came to mind.

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

3) Or you know, he could just spend time with people. There is this great fan series "Christmas with Sonic" where his thing was being an amazing cook. And it sits well with me, Shadow is a perfectionist, he would spend time with people to either show off his skills or to seek challenges.
I mean, it's a popular idea that Sonic and Shadow regularly race each other for sport.

Would be interesting to see this side of him officially.

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