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Should Shadow be a jerk?


MetalSkulkBane

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These are still video games at the end of the day, so I doubt Sega really puts much thought into what these characters actually do in their down time.

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8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Different angle. How do you feel about the idea that "Shadow doesn't do fun"?

.

How often do you see him having fun in officially released material? It's not a "bad idea." it's just who he is.

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Well, I personally don't mind Shadow being a jerk. In fact, I like the idea of having a jerk in Sonic games in the same vein Marvel Comics has Wolverine. That is to say, Shadow and Wolverine aren't exactly the same. Yet, they have around similar reasons, which are based on their pasts; for being a jerk or having an attitude. I do find that there is some common ground between the two characters in some ways. But enough of that; Shadow can be a jerk, but they can have him be a non jerk, be a good guy and maybe even have small humor moments as a character. I don't know how easy it is to develop Shadow though, since he does have a backstory that finished with his own game.

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I'm cool with Shadow being antagonistic to some degree because it's true to the character and adds flavour to the cast, but a lot of how this is done is bad and boring.

Like he's not a friendly guy but I assume he'd usually be happy to help save some people in danger or something, but a couple moments in the comics have had him very bluntly dismiss the idea. It doesn't make sense with older appearances especially, and even if you only look at some stupid shit like Forces it...still doesn't make sense. Even worse is it's not always clear how much of this is being actively enforced by SEGA, how much of it is any given writer's take on the character, and how much of it is writers struggling to deal with what SEGA wants.

Also at the end of the day a lot of people, even someone like me that loves Shadow, liked him best in SA2, where he was actually very entertaining (even if you discount some of the funny localization lines). He mostly just scowls now. lol

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27 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I'm cool with Shadow being antagonistic to some degree because it's true to the character and adds flavour to the cast, but a lot of how this is done is bad and boring.

Like he's not a friendly guy but I assume he'd usually be happy to help save some people in danger or something, but a couple moments in the comics have had him very bluntly dismiss the idea. It doesn't make sense with older appearances especially, and even if you only look at some stupid shit like Forces it...still doesn't make sense. Even worse is it's not always clear how much of this is being actively enforced by SEGA, how much of it is any given writer's take on the character, and how much of it is writers struggling to deal with what SEGA wants.

Also at the end of the day a lot of people, even someone like me that loves Shadow, liked him best in SA2, where he was actually very entertaining (even if you discount some of the funny localization lines). He mostly just scowls now. lol

I feel like the biggest problem is that nobody knows how to use him outside of the context of SA2. Which is yea, the usual Sonic character problem where they just kind of exist because the writers have no idea how to use them but still want to keep them around for whatever reason. 

And this is on top of the fact that I feel like a lot of the Comic book writers have a specific vision and interpretation of the character that doesn't align with what Sega wants. Ian Flynn has outright stated that he prefers Shadow being more friendly and open (at least with Team Dark) as he feels it makes him more flexible to use. And that aligns with how he interpreted him in the Archie series. 

So its a combination of Sega not really knowing or understanding how to use him, and the localized writers have their own ideas for Shadow that are met with pushback by Sega themselves. Its just a mess overall lmao. 

 

Part of me feels like Sega just needs to let the comic writers cook; like they already let the movies bastardize Sonic's character and everyone loves that shit, you may as well just let someone else have a shake at it. Especially if they're not going to do anything with Shadow themselves. 

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Shadow should be a jerk.

Shadow should have no real interests.

Shadow should dislike fun vehemently.

Shadow should always be compared to Vegetables.

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13 hours ago, Wraith said:

How often do you see him having fun in officially released material? It's not a "bad idea." it's just who he is.

1 He had a pet chao in several artworks for starters.

2 Okay, I can buy he doesn't do parties or picnics or whatever. But it should be shown in a positive way. He's busy fighting for justice. He's still suffering inside. IDK, something.

3 Using Amy as an example, characters can change who they are if "who they are" isn't working. And to gentle, current Shadow could work a little better.

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Shadow should always be compared to Vegetables.

Comparing Shadow to Vegeta has one fundamental flaw for me.

Vegeta wasn't just an asshole. He was a villain. A murderer, conqueror, destroyer. He was a bad person who's slowly turning good. So him being an asshole makes a lot of sense. Hey, at least he's not killing us anymore, right?

Shadow was manipulated, angry, damaged. That's what made him antagonist of the story. But at the end of the day, he was a good person. He learned about good and evil from one of the purest humans on the planet (And if Battle is to be believed, Gerald directly inserted Maria's morality into him).

So it feels weird for him to act like an asshat when those aren't values taught to him, unlike Prince of Sayians.

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My take? Shadow is the "unfunny" character. He doesn't need to be a jerk per se, just needs to go against the grain and be a party pooper. It doesn't matter what the given situation is; apart from a life or death scenario where it really counts, his prerogative is always to antagonize Sonic. Not because he's evil, because he just thinks Sonic is annoying. Anything deeper than that is unnecessary.

Unfunny wet blanket with a complex backstory that he refuses to elaborate on because only 10 people liked his game. 

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5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

1 He had a pet chao in several artworks for starters.

2 Okay, I can buy he doesn't do parties or picnics or whatever. But it should be shown in a positive way. He's busy fighting for justice. He's still suffering inside. IDK, something.

3 Using Amy as an example, characters can change who they are if "who they are" isn't working. And to gentle, current Shadow could work a little better.

Comparing Shadow to Vegeta has one fundamental flaw for me.

 

I wasn't sure how much the Sonic Channel stuff counted since most of it doesn't come up in the games proper. It used to make me think he had a chao and was into stuff like snowboarding but the games and the comics basically never acknowledge that stuff and imply he just goes around picking fights or w/e

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On 1/29/2023 at 7:17 AM, Indigo Rush said:

My take? Shadow is the "unfunny" character. He doesn't need to be a jerk per se, just needs to go against the grain and be a party pooper. It doesn't matter what the given situation is; apart from a life or death scenario where it really counts, his prerogative is always to antagonize Sonic. Not because he's evil, because he just thinks Sonic is annoying. Anything deeper than that is unnecessary.

Unfunny wet blanket with a complex backstory that he refuses to elaborate on because only 10 people liked his game. 

>go against the grain and be a party pooper

Keep in mind, he doesn't have anything against his associates in the Sonic cast (Main Canonical) - as i said previously here, he's just a introverted dude - he's not Forte from Classic Rockman where's he's a hardass and didn't get enough material to flesh him out   

>his prerogative is always to antagonize Sonic. Not because he's evil, because he just thinks Sonic is annoying

He rarely fights him in that fashion, if you count Generations - what does that make the Silver fight in the sense of the same context, i just count those as "memories" of sorts

>refuses to elaborate on because only 10 people liked his game. 

Still sold a million copies back then

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A jerk in the traditional sense of nagging on people for being weaker than him? No. A jerk in the sense that he's a bit too full of himself, but never means to actually be harmful/talk down to people? Absolutely.

For as mediocre as Forces' writing was, I do think Shadow was handled pretty decently in it even if he wasn't important at all. The "Should've hired a defense squad for the defense squad, eh doctor?" line is pretty close to how I imagine him acting. Same goes for his "I'm the coolest" or "You aren't even good enough to be my fake" lines from SA2. He's a bit full of himself, much like Sonic, but he doesn't get as careless as Sonic can be as a result or get as carried away with his jokes. He knows he's superior compared to most of the cast and can't help but get a bit cocky about it.

Sonic Boom is the only time I can recall actually disliking how Shadow was written. In boom he was a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk. Even with him in IDW, for as much of a mess as that writing is, I can kind of understand why he acted the way he did. Even with the infamous "Cowards run, I win." line, though that's a separate can of worms.

Shadow can be down to earth and tell people to stop messing around, but he's also susceptible to letting his own ego get ahead of him. But it should never get to the point where it actively harms him, a quip every now and then doesn't hurt.

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22 hours ago, TheEyclopediaHBookReader said:

>refuses to elaborate on because only 10 people liked his game. 

Still sold a million copies back then

And damn near tanked the franchise’s reputation while dividing the fandom into a fractured state that still goes on to this day.

Let’s not equate commercial success of it being an overall good game, because it caused more overall problems than it did any praise and the primary reason it even sold that much was because of brand recognition. Were that not the case, Sega would’ve made a sequel to that game pretty damn quick to rake in that kind of cash grab.

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6 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Sega would’ve made a sequel to that game pretty damn quick to rake in that kind of cash grab.

 Reviews or Player Reception aside - this didn't work out for Sonic Mania in the same status

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I like to think the creation of Sonic Origins - and the fact that many of Mania's biggest hitters pitched into it, even if the relationship wasn't ideal - was directly spurred on by the critical and commercial success of Mania. Regardless, I'm leaning more towards CSS's side on this one. Sega knows full well how their games are received critically and aren't afraid of throwing them under the bus whenever it's convenient, lest we forget that 06 and Unleashed were also million sellers but were delisted anyway in an attempt to save their image. Hell, it's my understanding that even that million sales figure was a lot more slow burning than most people give credit for. As far as a game's reception goes, just the numbers it moves is a small part of a much larger picture.

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I kinda prefer having Shadow being a bit of a jerk, a bit insensitive while at the same time having better aspect that he tries to hide (because he might not be willing to have strong relationship anymore). I like him being someone rude, not really nice to people, with a huge ego. Stuff like the Infinite scene annoy me a bit more, but because it felt a bit too over the top. I don't dislike Shadow being an asshole to other asshole, but I'm Shadow being "you being weak meant you are worthless" kinda irk me. I would prefer if he was more just mocking how he acted as if he was a huge deal and was dealt on a few swift. "I've seen badniks stronger than you" would be more adapted than things like "don't show your worthless face", because the second one have an ideologie that is kinda irky. But Shadow thinking he is the best, and that he should always be the best and that every failure is a disgrace ? I kinda like that (especially for the toxic aspect of putting too much weight on his own shoulders).

About how making him jerk-y, I feel that his characterization in Chao Races and Badnik Bases was one of my favourite on this aspect (my actual favourite being Battle), as I kinda like the aspect that he can get complete tunnel vision when he is angry, and need some help to snapping back to his better aspect (and Rouge saying "welp, I won't force you, but you'll be the one that have to live with your consequence" is a kinda interesting way of handling him). Especially with the somewhat tsundere-esque aspect of "don't think it makes me a good person" he shows toward Sonic, and Sonic seeing completely trough it. The fact that we also see him second-guessing himself, which is pretty rare in his characterizations, was also something that I liked. BUT, it would be better tho if his better aspect where shown more often, tbh, and if he was in situation that need him to be emotionnaly invested. A part of the issue is that we need them to happens, and not just be promises (like him throwing the apple to a chao, and having some tsundere aspect). So we need more moment where we see that he isn't someone that show much his feelings, but that care in his own way for some people around him, that'll counterbalance his more jerk/impolite moments.

So I feel that something like that would be my favourite way of handling him. I would also add some more quirky/joke-y aspect by making him the "comically serious" in several situation, and taking things waay too much seriously, even when its kinda dumb.

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6 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

I like to think the creation of Sonic Origins - and the fact that many of Mania's biggest hitters pitched into it, even if the relationship wasn't ideal - was directly spurred on by the critical and commercial success of Mania. Regardless, I'm leaning more towards CSS's side on this one. Sega knows full well how their games are received critically and aren't afraid of throwing them under the bus whenever it's convenient, lest we forget that 06 and Unleashed were also million sellers but were delisted anyway in an attempt to save their image. Hell, it's my understanding that even that million sales figure was a lot more slow burning than most people give credit for. As far as a game's reception goes, just the numbers it moves is a small part of a much larger picture.

Personally as someone who is more cautious about game purchases and money sufficiency, i don't see the high transcendence value of a collection like Origins if you already have the games from another collection or cheaper alts and emulation,

It's weird for Whitehead to appear himself as some future game designer to take the world by storm, to weirdly explain himself (Vaguely) about the issues of the origins collection, orrrrr it's maybe Whitehead and his follower of hype merchants can only sell enough hype to confuse people into thinking any other future endeavors will be automatic success stories in a long run (that doesn't appear to be the case)

and it's weird, people still talk about 06 and Unleashed with some intrinsic value (like segments and parts of the games, production value) regardless of reception, where's with Mania, the pharse "Honeymoon period" comes to mind and something like "Omelette" barely make recent discussion and in highsight i don't see previous complaints like "too much Classic Sonic in modern games" as legitimate because that's what fans on the internet wanted, like how archie fans want a explanation to get the freedom fighters comic universe back as a example 

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Holy shit. I've heard of moving goalposts and strawman arguments before, but somehow you managed to make a three paragraph post that addressed literally none of the actual points I made to go off on a completely irrelevant tangent. It's actually kind of impressive, in a sad sort of way.

Speaking of irrelevant tangents, what does this have to do with Shadow's characterization again? We should probably switch back to that topic.

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Its better to say Shadow should be a likeable  jerk rather than simply be a jerk. His personality must serve the story obviously, but fans must also like him for what he is. He has always been serious, but he should not be abrasive. 

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Given how the SA2, Heroes and Shadow games explored his origins, I liked how Ian Flynn wrote his GUN phase. It showed he put most of his dark past behind him, and worked towards how Maria wanted to see him, as a force for good, not revenge. 

 

Sure, his methods rubbed some people up the wrong way (especially Knuckles), but this may have been his military training too.

 

*In the Archie comics, not IDW.

Edited by HywelAtTheMoon
Missed words out.
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Oh believe me, hes a big arrogant prick(possibly more than Sonic). But unlike Sonic, hes very insightful and intelligent that his jerk moments highlight his tendency to know what hes doing and how to elaborate his intention usually which are good or neccessary. Like Togami from Danganronpa. Thats how i feel he should be anyways XD!

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I don't mind it much. But when he is acting like one, I feel that it should be out of necessity. I don't really see Shadow as someone giving in to anger (quite the contrary) but rather just a no nonsense guy that gets the job done.

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I pretty much agree with everyone, we don't need too many friendly Sonic characters. Shadow can be a jerk and ruthless but not just for the sake of it, like in Prime for example, there is a legit reason for being mad and he didn't even look to aggressive, the problem is when Shadow acts like a dumbass without thinking, in IDW, in the infamous issue, but also in issue 10 IMO, but then again he reflects upon it realizing his mistake even then.

Shadow can be a dick, just not... a dumbass? In a more chill way I guess, apathetic in my opinion, like he doesn't give a shit about people, even though deep down he actually cares a bit.

One thing SEGA got right recently about him is he's a very serious and no-nonsense character, he doesn't make jokes.

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Why is SEGA so insistent on making Shadow arrogant and abrasive showing very little of his positive qualities in most of the modern games? Did the failure of Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006 have to do with this?

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