Did Sonic meet Amy or Tails first?

[Diogenes]

I always thought Sonic knew Tails the whole time - so before Sonic 1, and that Tails just wasn't helping him at that time. I thought they were friends for years. :-/

From a storyline standpoint, Sonic 2 never implies that Sonic has just met Tails.

The Japanese Sonic 2 manual explicitly states that they didn't meet until Sonic came to West Side Island. And it seems to be referenced during a flashback in SA, so.

[psikeout]

I tend to think Sonic CD came after S3K because I see Metal Sonic as the apex of a series of Sonic robots. Whenever one was destroyed, Eggman just built a new and improved one.

Sonic2 Silver Sonic

Sonic3 Mecha Sonic

Sonic CD Metal Sonic

Tails did have two games of his own without Sonic present so I guess you could say one of them occurred while Sonic was on Little Planet to explain his absence.

Remember that Eggman had the benefit of control of time while conquering Little Planet. It seems logical to me that Metal Sonic may have been technology from the distant future that he was unable to replicate again for a long time after the events of Sonic CD (i.e. he didn't manage to reproduce it until well after S3&K).

[Aquaslash]

the Sonic Advance games were prequels to Sonic Adventure

They most certainly were not, especially not 3.

Advances 1 and 2 likely happened between Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, and Advance 3 takes place after Sonic Battle, which itself was after Shadow the Hedgehog.

[batson]

They most certainly were not, especially not 3.

Advances 1 and 2 likely happened between Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, and Advance 3 takes place after Sonic Battle, which itself was after Shadow the Hedgehog.

Yeah, a lot of people believe that the Advance games (part 1 and 2 anyway) happened before Sonic Adventure, but i really see no reason for that. The usuall arguement for why the first two Advance games comes before Adventure is that Cream is introduced in Advance 2, and makes a cameo appearance in SA:DX. But don't consider that one little cameo with no relevance in the plot whatsoever as "canonical" in the sense that we are supposed to consider that Cream was actually present during the events of that game.

[Omochao]

Actually Sonic met Tails first. The reason I know this is because in AoSTH (Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog), Tails lands on Sonic's head from falling because he wanted to live with birds and Sonic says, "Don't you have a family?" And Tails says no, So Sonic says he'll let him stick around for a while, then he'll "think" about it. Then in Sonic X, he meets Sonic in a forest (which is weird cause they meet each other twice..Stupid 4Kids) because Tails thinks that Sonic's all kewlio and all and he finds a plane and works on it, then Sonic comes up and meets him (once again..Stupid 4Kids).

[Sean]

It's really not enough for you guys to say that the Sonic games just happened in the order they were chronologically released on the market, is it? Except when otherwise noted.

[edge.]

It's more likely that CD came before 2 because of the time travel deal. Since the time travel feature was supposed to be added for 2, maybe before Tails befriended Sonic. With that, I think Sonic CD is a MIDQUEL, much less a prequel itself. (Another example of a midquel is the recently released Kindgom Hearts 358/2 Days, which takes place b/w KH1 and 2, and probably smack dab in the middle of Chain of Memories)

[Flyboy Fox]

Actually Sonic met Tails first. The reason I know this is because in AoSTH (Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog), Tails lands on Sonic's head from falling because he wanted to live with birds and Sonic says, "Don't you have a family?" And Tails says no, So Sonic says he'll let him stick around for a while, then he'll "think" about it. Then in Sonic X, he meets Sonic in a forest (which is weird cause they meet each other twice..Stupid 4Kids) because Tails thinks that Sonic's all kewlio and all and he finds a plane and works on it, then Sonic comes up and meets him (once again..Stupid 4Kids).

Although I like to believe that the first few games were chronological, the cartoons are entirely different canons, meaning that any history outlined in them is not necessarily true for the games, and is often very different in fact.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Yeah, the Japanese game canon has Tails as an accomplished scientist and hero before he meets Sonic.

[Flyboy Fox]

Yeah, there's country-release-specific differences too. Like whether or not Tails already met Sonic before his exploits in Tails Adventures, which I imagine might be what you were referring to?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Yeah, there's country-release-specific differences too. Like whether or not Tails already met Sonic before his exploits in Tails Adventures, which I imagine might be what you were referring to?

Yep, that what I mean! In Japan it was a prequel to Sonic 2, everywhere else, it was a sequel.

[Yong]

It's really not enough for you guys to say that the Sonic games just happened in the order they were chronologically released on the market, is it? Except when otherwise noted.

Problem is those "notes" aren't always clear cut. I still know some people who put Sonic Battle before Shadow the Hedgehog. "Evidence" of a game taking place before or after a game is up to interpretation.

That being said there's no real answer to the topic in question. It's like trying to answer which came first, the chicken or the egg. There's really no damning evidence to suggest that either Sonic 2 or Sonic CD has to take place before or after one or another. It'll pretty much just come down to how individuals prefer to order to the games.

[psikeout]

There's really no damning evidence to suggest that either Sonic 2 or Sonic CD has to take place before or after one or another. It'll pretty much just come down to how individuals prefer to order to the games.

Normally, I'm the last person to invoke Occam's Razor, but there are ways we can rationalize to completely rule out some possibilities simply on the basis that they are too complicated, and Sega would've surely not intended them to be so.

What I mean is that Sonic CD can't logically be after Sonic 2 because of points already mentioned. Sonic 2, 3, and S&K flow perfectly between one another. This means they would have made Sonic CD thinking ahead of S&K, and this is extremely unlikely to the point of being kind of silly to even consider. And how much more complicated is it to try to insist that it takes place in the middle of a game?

This leaves two options.

1. Sonic CD took place before Sonic 2.

2. It doesn't have a specific place in the timeline at all because it was developed alongside Sonic 2. Am I remembering this correctly? I seem to recall that Ooshima (or Ohshima, depending on your preferred Romanization) worked on Sonic CD while Naka worked on Sonic 2.

Option 2 is the one that fans are least likely to enjoy because it dispenses with the idea that there is necessarily a logical timeline for the earliest Sonic games, and fans love to rationalize things. However, I think it's most likely that, before Sonic 3 and S&K came to exist, Sonic CD and Sonic 2 were both sequels to Sonic 1, and it didn't really matter which came first. The existence of Sonic 3 just makes it a logical conclusion that Sonic CD comes before Sonic 2.

So, in summary, I think everyone thinks way too much about what Sega intended to imply about the timeline, when they probably intended nothing at all. They were just making video games. But, if you want to rationalize something, then simple logic guarantees that Sonic CD came before Sonic 2, otherwise you have a great number of complexities to explain away.

[Yong]

Normally, I'm the last person to invoke Occam's Razor, but there are ways we can rationalize to completely rule out some possibilities simply on the basis that they are too complicated, and Sega would've surely not intended them to be so.

What I mean is that Sonic CD can't logically be after Sonic 2 because of points already mentioned. Sonic 2, 3, and S&K flow perfectly between one another. This means they would have made Sonic CD thinking ahead of S&K, and this is extremely unlikely to the point of being kind of silly to even consider. And how much more complicated is it to try to insist that it takes place in the middle of a game?

This leaves two options.

1. Sonic CD took place before Sonic 2.

2. It doesn't have a specific place in the timeline at all because it was developed alongside Sonic 2. Am I remembering this correctly? I seem to recall that Ooshima (or Ohshima, depending on your preferred Romanization) worked on Sonic CD while Naka worked on Sonic 2.

Option 2 is the one that fans are least likely to enjoy because it dispenses with the idea that there is necessarily a logical timeline for the earliest Sonic games, and fans love to rationalize things. However, I think it's most likely that, before Sonic 3 and S&K came to exist, Sonic CD and Sonic 2 were both sequels to Sonic 1, and it didn't really matter which came first. The existence of Sonic 3 just makes it a logical conclusion that Sonic CD comes before Sonic 2.

So, in summary, I think everyone thinks way too much about what Sega intended to imply about the timeline, when they probably intended nothing at all. They were just making video games. But, if you want to rationalize something, then simple logic guarantees that Sonic CD came before Sonic 2, otherwise you have a great number of complexities to explain away.

I'm failing to see the logic here, if there was any. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 flow perfectly cause that's how they wanted it. They wanted Sonic 3 to be a direct follow up to Sonic 2. I don't see how that "logically" explains why Sonic CD has to take place before both of them. That only means Sonic CD can't take place between those two.

[Legendary Emerald]

That being said there's no real answer to the topic in question. It's like trying to answer which came first, the chicken or the egg. There's really no damning evidence to suggest that either Sonic 2 or Sonic CD has to take place before or after one or another. It'll pretty much just come down to how individuals prefer to order to the games.

While I agree with it being impossible to find out who Sonic met first without SEGA outright telling us in an upcoming game, I don't see why you would compare the question to the old "chicken and the egg" crap.

The egg came first. Everyone who knows a thing or two about science and isn't clouded by religion can realize that species' just kept laying eggs, their contents slowly evolving through the years, until one day something close to the modern day chicken popped out some creatures' egg. Granted, that is a simplified explanation, and evolution isn't a fool-proof theory, but it's a hell of a lot better than any alternative answers imo.

[Yong]

While I agree with it being impossible to find out who Sonic met first without SEGA outright telling us in an upcoming game, I don't see why you would compare the question to the old "chicken and the egg" crap.

The egg came first. Everyone who knows a thing or two about science and isn't clouded by religion can realize that species' just kept laying eggs, their contents slowly evolving through the years, until one day something close to the modern day chicken popped out some creatures' egg. Granted, that is a simplified explanation, and evolution isn't a fool-proof theory, but it's a hell of a lot better than any alternative answers imo.

And anyone who doesn't believe in evolution would tell you otherwise. And as you said, until Sega tells us otherwise, it can go either way, nor is it important at the end of the day. That's what I meant in the analogy.

[psikeout]

I'm failing to see the logic here, if there was any. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 flow perfectly cause that's how they wanted it. They wanted Sonic 3 to be a direct follow up to Sonic 2. I don't see how that "logically" explains why Sonic CD has to take place before both of them. That only means Sonic CD can't take place between those two.

Understand what I meant by Occam's Razor. It's unnecessary complexity that adds nothing to the explanation and requires more explaining than the "obvious" answer, that being that Sonic CD was placed before Sonic 2.

Everyone who knows a thing or two about science and isn't clouded by religion can realize that species' just kept laying eggs, their contents slowly evolving through the years, until one day something close to the modern day chicken popped out some creatures' egg.

Way to turn idle video game discussion into bigoted religious prejudice.

Edited November 10, 2009 by psikeout

[Yong]

So going with "cause I said so" then? Cause like I said, call me ignorant, but I didn't see any reasoning at all in that last post. I'm not going to argue this though cause I'd rather not go through the "complex" reasoning since your offering to withhold it anyway. I still stand be my own opinion though.

[psikeout]

So going with "cause I said so" then? Cause like I said, call me ignorant, but I didn't see any reasoning at all in that last post. I'm not going to argue this though cause I'd rather not go through the "complex" reasoning since your offering to withhold it anyway. I still stand be my own opinion though.

Chill out. Is everybody around here so on edge about everything?

Look, let me use an exaggeration to make a point. Yes, this is a horrible exaggeration, and does not accurately reflect your angle, but illustrates it more like a caricature.

From your logic, I could say that Sonic CD actually takes place in the middle of Sonic Adventure 2, at some point between levels for Sonic. We could say that Never Lake is actually located somewhere near Capital City, and that Sonic had to pass by it at some point. The strange emanations of Little Planet created a rift in time, and he encountered a past version of Amy Rose and Eggman there. Then, since time was effectively standing still while he was on Little Planet, he was able to defeat Eggman's subplot and continue with Sonic Adventure 2 as if nothing ever happened.

Why would we say this? It's perfectly plausible, however, it adds unnecessary complexity, in that it assumes that Sega's crew preplanned Sonic CD to take place in the middle of a game that it had not probably even conceived the first thought of yet. It's the same way by assuming Sonic CD takes place after S3&K, just not to such an extreme degree. Basically, you have to be willing to assume more unconfirmed things to accept that Sonic CD takes place after Sonic & Knuckles rather than before Sonic 2. Get what I mean now?

[Yong]

Chill out. Is everybody around here so on edge about everything?

Look, let me use an exaggeration to make a point. Yes, this is a horrible exaggeration, and does not accurately reflect your angle, but illustrates it more like a caricature.

From your logic, I could say that Sonic CD actually takes place in the middle of Sonic Adventure 2, at some point between levels for Sonic. We could say that Never Lake is actually located somewhere near Capital City, and that Sonic had to pass by it at some point. The strange emanations of Little Planet created a rift in time, and he encountered a past version of Amy Rose and Eggman there. Then, since time was effectively standing still while he was on Little Planet, he was able to defeat Eggman's subplot and continue with Sonic Adventure 2 as if nothing ever happened.

Why would we say this? It's perfectly plausible, however, it adds unnecessary complexity, in that it assumes that Sega's crew preplanned Sonic CD to take place in the middle of a game that it had not probably even conceived the first thought of yet. It's the same way by assuming Sonic CD takes place after S3&K, just not to such an extreme degree. Basically, you have to be willing to assume more unconfirmed things to accept that Sonic CD takes place after Sonic & Knuckles rather than before Sonic 2. Get what I mean now?

If someone can make a proper arguement and support it with concrete evidence, then yes Sonic CD could take place during Sonic Adventure 2. The entire basis of your "exaggerated example" makes too liberal use of time travel to prove itself, of which I wouldn't accept as hard evidence, despite Sonic CD's actual use of time travel in its own story(of which Sonic and Eggman only used to travel to the remote past and future of only the Little Planet). I'm not going to accept some unususal order someone puts the games in unless they can provide evidence that the games have to go in that order, or show that not enough evidence exists that would force games to be in a certain chronological order.

[psikeout]

If someone can make a proper arguement and support it with concrete evidence, then yes Sonic CD could take place during Sonic Adventure 2. The entire basis of your "exaggerated example" makes too liberal use of time travel to prove itself, of which I wouldn't accept as hard evidence, despite Sonic CD's actual use of time travel in its own story(of which Sonic and Eggman only used to travel to the remote past and future of only the Little Planet). I'm not going to accept some unususal order someone puts the games in unless they can provide evidence that the games have to go in that order, or show that not enough evidence exists that would force games to be in a certain chronological order.

Good. That's good, you definitely shouldn't, and I'm glad you reacted that way to the example. As said, it was supposed to be a gross exaggeration.

Anyway, I want you to know I never wanted to come across as being like, "NO IT MUST BE THIS WAY, YOU ARE WRONG AND IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOU ARE STUPID" or anything of the sort. I personally just believe that it is the simplest solution requiring the least explanation to have Sonic CD come before Sonic 2. There's nothing wrong timeline-wise with having Sonic CD come after S&K, but it just seems unlikely, considering the order the games were developed in (S3&K later, while SCD and S2 were developed almost simultaneously).

I just gravitate toward the simple solutions because I don't like filling in the cracks of the Sonic story. There are way too many of them, and everybody's got their own choice of fillers.

[Yong]

Good. That's good, you definitely shouldn't, and I'm glad you reacted that way to the example. As said, it was supposed to be a gross exaggeration.

Anyway, I want you to know I never wanted to come across as being like, "NO IT MUST BE THIS WAY, YOU ARE WRONG AND IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOU ARE STUPID" or anything of the sort. I personally just believe that it is the simplest solution requiring the least explanation to have Sonic CD come before Sonic 2. There's nothing wrong timeline-wise with having Sonic CD come after S&K, but it just seems unlikely, considering the order the games were developed in (S3&K later, while SCD and S2 were developed almost simultaneously).

I just gravitate toward the simple solutions because I don't like filling in the cracks of the Sonic story. There are way too many of them, and everybody's got their own choice of fillers.

That was my stance from the beginning. I don't see how you thought I was saying anyone could set up the time line however they wanted without reasoning. It's because of that that I wonder why you believe it makes more sense for Sonic CD to come before Sonic 2 yet rather not elaborate on why you think that, suggesting you don't have any good reasoning to back up your claim.

It seems to be a failure on people's part to comprehend INSERTING Sonic 3 between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD simply because of the order they were developed in. I don't believe Sega had any idea they wanted Sonic 3 to be a direct follow up to Sonic 2 while they were developing Sonic CD's story, that's just how it turned out. As how I doubt Sega planned Shadow the Hedgehog ahead before writing Sonic Battle's script.

There are cracks, yes. But outright suggesting that one game most likely takes place before another means you are attempting to fill one. Keeping things open is good, but if you're going to suggest something, then please explain even little.

[psikeout]

That was my stance from the beginning. I don't see how you thought I was saying anyone could set up the time line however they wanted without reasoning. It's because of that that I wonder why you believe it makes more sense for Sonic CD to come before Sonic 2 yet rather not elaborate on why you think that, suggesting you don't have any good reasoning to back up your claim.

It seems to be a failure on people's part to comprehend INSERTING Sonic 3 between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD simply because of the order they were developed in. I don't believe Sega had any idea they wanted Sonic 3 to be a direct follow up to Sonic 2 while they were developing Sonic CD's story, that's just how it turned out. As how I doubt Sega planned Shadow the Hedgehog ahead before writing Sonic Battle's script.

There are cracks, yes. But outright suggesting that one game most likely takes place before another means you are attempting to fill one. Keeping things open is good, but if you're going to suggest something, then please explain even little.

Hum. I did, but I think you may have missed it, or I may not have phrased it clearly enough. I said I don't think Sonic CD necessarily has a specific place in the series, and that it's just first and foremost a sequel to Sonic 1, the game it most resembles. I said that, if we are to seat it in the timeline, it makes most sense to place it before Sonic 2 because they were in development at the same time, and it doesn't require faith in the idea that they had the foresight to place it after a series of games that most people agree are very tightly linked (S2, S3, S&K.)

In short, I think Sonic CD is a sequel to Sonic 1. I don't think it's logical that they would have planned ahead to place it after S3&K, and I don't think it's logical that it would interrupt the apparent flow between S2 and S3 because of Sonic having the Chaos Emeralds, yada yada, insert things people have already said here. So if we have to place it in the timeline, putting it before Sonic 2 requires the least crack-filling and the least assumption.

[Yong]

Placing Sonic CD after S&K would still fufill the conditions that it has to be a sequel to Sonic 1 and that it can't take place between any of those mentioned games. And as I said before, it's more likely that they had no idea what Sonic 3's story was going to end up being, which is a different interpretation of your argument of how they didn't intend Sonic CD to go after S&K. It's just how it turned out and in the end it's just assumptions on our part. But again you seem to be ignoring the possibility that CD could come after S&K simply because it's "less complicated." I don't care if someone's proof is 30 pages long. If it exists then I will accept it. Reality can't be pushed aside simply because it's inconvient to you.

[psikeout]

Placing Sonic CD after S&K would still fufill the conditions that it has to be a sequel to Sonic 1 and that it can't take place between any of those mentioned games. And as I said before, it's more likely that they had no idea what Sonic 3's story was going to end up being, which is a different interpretation of your argument of how they didn't intend Sonic CD to go after S&K. It's just how it turned out and in the end it's just assumptions on our part. But again you seem to be ignoring the possibility that CD could come after S&K simply because it's "less complicated." I don't care if someone's proof is 30 pages long. If it exists then I will accept it. Reality can't be pushed aside simply because it's inconvient to you.

Wow. Okay, man. I already said don't mind you thinking something other than I do. Please don't use such aggressive phrasing in return, saying I'm ignoring things because it's inconvenient to me, and so on. I'm just saying I like the simplest, most obvious approach, and I at least think I backed that view up intelligibly and politely. I'm done, though, so... yeah, okay.