Did Sonic meet Amy or Tails first?

[Yong]

I've mentioned before how Sonic 2 and CD were made without any idea that Sonic 3 would ineviditably be a direct follow up to Sonic 2. That's just how it turned out. That's the only fact that seems feasible to me. We can't assume however how they felt about the fact that they released several games after Sonic 2 and prior to Sonic 3, or if that was even important to them, given Sega's lax attitude when it comes to the Sonic timeline.

Now generally if I have no reason to place a Sonic game between 2 other games, I just go with the time of release window. That I understand. However I also understand the idea of a media company releasing a prequel or side story to a series. It probably wasn't planned that way, it may not look or play like the previous entries, but that's how it turned out. You just insert said new entry into the "correct" spot in the timeline and move on.

Now I for one have no problem with Sonic CD coming before Sonic 2, even if the only reason being bias towards deveolpment and release window. How you counter the reasoning for Sonic CD coming after Sonic 2 is up to you. However, please note, that given the fact that Sonic 3 must proceed Sonic 2 DOES NOT translate in meaning that Sonic CD can't take place after Sonic 2, if not in direct following. The fact that Sonic 3 ended up being a direct follow up to Sonic 2 does not translate into into the likihood that Sonic CD was never meant to be after Sonic 3, it only means just that, that Sonic 3 comes after Sonic 2. Your assumptions of how Sega feels on the issue is just that, an assumption. Development and release window is not an end all arguement when it comes to the Sonic timeline, such as the case where the stories of Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Battle would not make sense if we didn't think outside of that arguement. Of all the high things you've come up with to describe your placement, least disputable is certainly not one of them.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Yong

[Flyboy Fox]

Sonic CD is pretty much a floating game, and I'd be content with wiping it out of the canonical mainstream timeline altogether if it didn't deal with introducing a now important character.

However, I think I'm tending to see its place in the timeline as vaguely nebulous... sort of an "at some point in time, Sonic got pulled into another adventure, in which he met a girl called Amy Rose who was in need of rescue", without much need to place exactly when said venture occurred.

[Yong]

Sonic CD is pretty much a floating game, and I'd be content with wiping it out of the canonical mainstream timeline altogether if it didn't deal with introducing a now important character.

However, I think I'm tending to see its place in the timeline as vaguely nebulous... sort of an "at some point in time, Sonic got pulled into another adventure, in which he met a girl called Amy Rose who was in need of rescue", without much need to place exactly when said venture occurred.

Totally agree. Sonic definitely works best when it's not tried down by a timeline. Certainly would give me less to do, but I couldn't be happier.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Yong

[psikeout]

post

Nah; mine still requires fewer assumptions than yours. I'm just happy now that it's all out of my system and spelled out in an inescapably clear way, where I can't be misconstrued or accused of not backing up my arguments.

See, at the end of the day, people are welcome to believe whatever they like about this since nothing is etched in stone on some great Tablet of Canon. If it's a matter of preference that makes someone enjoy thinking Sonic CD takes place after Sonic & Knuckles, then more power to that individual. When it comes to things like video games, you can really enjoy whatever you like, even if it doesn't seem like it may be true. It's not that important! But, to earnestly believe your view is equally as likely to be actual truth as mine and so many others (rather than just liking your view as a matter of preference) after so much logic has been explained and applied to evidence the contrary takes an act of faith, and I think I'd prefer to reserve those for matters of religion. Where there is no great theological debate, I follow the old rule of K.I.S.S., and go with what's obvious.

Please, by all means enjoy your point of view. It would be nice for you to try other perspectives on for size in the future, though, if only to more politely acknowledge other people, and not come across as abrasively as you did to me at first.

And with that, I check out of this topic for real, honest, fo realz.

Edited November 11, 2009 by psikeout

[Yong]

I could say the same to you. The fact is I've made it clear I'm open to anyone in how they want to place Sonic CD. You on the other hand were steadfast in believing Sonic CD comes before Sonic 2 without feeling the need to explain why other than the bias to your said unexplained reasoning(unexplained at least until just this moment). I don't see how my preference(note, my preference, NOT my "undisputable" belief) to insert Sonic 3 between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD is any more "complicated" or obvious than your arrangment. It doesn't matter how much interest you have on the subject. If you're going to claim something, then you beter be ready to defend your point, or otherwise be open to the fact that you may be wrong about how you originally approached things.

[Daimao]

I think Sonic CD would go after the entire Death Egg Saga. Why do i say this? Because...

1. Sonic 2's story states that Sonic went to vacation after defeating Robotnik in Sonic 1, but was forced to come back into action once Eggman attacks Westside Island.

2. This way the Metal Sonic production line is fixed.

3. The absence of a character [Tails] does NOT prove anything!

Justification for #3: Tails Adventure takes place before Sonic 2 in Japanese story. But Tails' Skypatrol is not stated to be before or after anything. So maybe Tails was sky patrolling while Sonic was on Little Planet.

[Yong]

I think Sonic CD would go after the entire Death Egg Saga. Why do i say this? Because...

1. Sonic 2's story states that Sonic went to vacation after defeating Robotnik in Sonic 1, but was forced to come back into action once Eggman attacks Westside Island.

2. This way the Metal Sonic production line is fixed.

3. The absence of a character [Tails] does NOT prove anything!

Justification for #3: Tails Adventure takes place before Sonic 2 in Japanese story. But Tails' Skypatrol is not stated to be before or after anything. So maybe Tails was sky patrolling while Sonic was on Little Planet.

There's really no need to justify where a character(s) was when absent from a game. It's not like anyone asked why the Chaotix weren't in Soleanna to save the princess in Sonic 06.

[Tornado]

I wasn't aware there was an explanation for his absence. What would that be?

Seriously? I'll play that card you love the throw out so readily: if you really want to know, look it up yourself. It has probably been said a half-dozen times in this thread, which is quite ironic for someone who whines about people ignoring their explanations.

How can there be "problems" if there's "nothing" to go on? If there's a problem or inconsistency within the game or with another game then there's something. What is that something exactly?

Way to put words in my mouth. There are problems no matter where the game is placed, but there is nothing official to explain them completely (except for the absence of Tails in Sonic CD if before Sonic 2); nor is there anything official regarding where exactly the game takes place in the timeline.

What I was saying is certain games don't have enough evidence that would force them to come before or after another game, so that either arrangement is perfectly acceptable unless Sega comes out in the future and says that they have to be in a certain order.

The funny thing is that you've been arguing against something that no one has actually said. You are playing Devil's Advocate for no real reason.

But still if you were to ask me where I put a game before and after a certain game I would give you my reasoning immediately, no matter how weak the arguement I'm using. Still though I'm not going to argue with someone for how they arrange said games in their timelines, unless they have poor reasoning to say why a game goes before or after another, which is what's happening here with the assumption that Sonic CD before Sonic 2 makes more sense and is less complicated.

There is an inherent absurdity in this paragraph. People have been giving reasoning, and you have been arguing with them to no end about it. So they are in fact doing what you ask, and then you call them out for it.

Thus the absent character arguement isn't a valid arguement for game placement in the timeline.

And yet the only proof of that claim was a bunch of flimsy counter-arguments that were full of holes themselves.

It's a common arguement many have used to argue why a certain game takes place before another, or to remove the game from the canon entirely. However the arguement is flawed due to the counter arguements I've already mentioned in this thread. No one mentions Amy in said arguement in regards to Sonic 2 and Sonic CD cause they failed to see the flaw in the argument.

It has been explicitly mentioned by both me and Diogenes multiple times, and there is an easy suggestion that explains Amy's absence in Sonic 2/3 that is based on canonical events and characterization.

And I already discussed the fallacy of those counter-arguments. You ignored me. Not my problem.

There's really no need to justify where a character(s) was when absent from a game. It's not like anyone asked why the Chaotix weren't in Soleanna to save the princess in Sonic 06.

I directly explained why that didn't mean anything in relation to this thread.

I don't see how my preference(note, my preference, NOT my "undisputable" belief) to insert Sonic 3 between Sonic 2 and Sonic CD is any more "complicated" or obvious than your arrangment.

You don't understand it because it has been explained to you many times, and you have ignored the explanations each and every time. It is your preference to stick it wherever you want, but whenever anyone explains why it might (emphasis on might) make more sense to place the game in a certain spot you stick your fingers in your ears and start shouting.

For that reason, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are posting in this thread just for the sake of arguing, so I'm not going to bother any more. That being said, by all means have fun offering up whatever "counter arguments" you like in response to this post.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Tornado

[Tornado]

1. Sonic 2's story states that Sonic went to vacation after defeating Robotnik in Sonic 1, but was forced to come back into action once Eggman attacks Westside Island.

Not to sound like a jerk, but where did it say this? The Japanese manual for Sonic 2 does state that he was resting for a while, but it doesn't explicitly mention that he started resting immediately after the events of the first game; and it also mentions that he was actually resting on West Side Island when Robotnik attacked it.

2. This way the Metal Sonic production line is fixed.

That depends on how you view the evolution of the Metal Sonic line, but I happen to agree that the Metal Sonic issue is the most glaring problem with Sonic CD being before Sonic 2. Particularly if one believes Chaotix is canon, and is therefore taken into account.

3. The absence of a character [Tails] does NOT prove anything!

That is true, but then again no one said it wasn't.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Tornado

[Yong]

Seriously? I'll play that card you love the throw out so readily: if you really want to know, look it up yourself. It has probably been said a half-dozen times in this thread, which is quite ironic for someone who whines about people ignoring their explanations.

If you mean that little picture, which is by the way locked away by a secret code, I've never seen how that would affect the story in anyway. That's like saying there's something canonically wrong with Sonic Adventure DX because of the pressence of pictures with Chris.

Even still, the picture can still go either way. Either the game takes place after Sonic 2 and Tails is leaving a greeting to placehold his absence, or it's before Sonic 2 and Tails is making the statement that it's not his time to be in the game yet and he'll see you in the next one(which would be Sonic 2). And we never know who it is the message is being directed to, if anyone at all within the canon story. I'm more inclined to say that it's proof(assuming we take it as proof) that Sonic CD takes place after Sonic 2 because the existence of Tails is established, even if in the form of an extra piece of content.

But I was assuming there was another piece of info I missed, which is why I asked for a reference in excuse for my ignorance.

The funny thing is that you've been arguing against something that no one has actually said. You are playing Devil's Advocate for no real reason.

That was in response to example arguements you yourself posted here.

There is an inherent absurdity in this paragraph. People have been giving reasoning, and you have been arguing with them to no end about it. So they are in fact doing what you ask, and then you call them out for it.

So I'm not allowed to question anything anyone here has to say? I just have to take it as 100% fact and truth?

And yet the only proof of that claim was a bunch of flimsy counter-arguments that were full of holes themselves.

If you would like to point something I did wrong, then please go ahead and do so. But it seems clear you'd rather end the arguement than continue the discussion.

It has been explicitly mentioned by both me and Diogenes multiple times, and there is an easy suggestion that explains Amy's absence in Sonic 2/3 that is based on canonical events and characterization.

And I already discussed the fallacy of those counter-arguments. You ignored me. Not my problem.

I don't see how the "importance" of a character is proof for anything. How "important" a character is is only based off the opinion of the individual. I always saw Amy as "important" in this regard, not that I ever did to begin with. It might be a valid theory if we're only looking at those 4 console games. But it doesn't explain why certain characters don't appear in all the other games, even the ones deemed "important." But I guess that's a fault on my end, since I always look at all games when constructing a timeline, when I doubt anyone here was concerned about where Sonic the Hedgehog 2 for the Game Gear and Sonic & Tails go in relation to this.

But I have to point out again that I never wanted an explanation for Amy and Tails' absence since I've made it clear I never saw a character's absence as a reason why a game takes place before or after another.

You don't understand it because it has been explained to you many times, and you have ignored the explanations each and every time. It is your preference to stick it wherever you want, but whenever anyone explains why it might (emphasis on might) make more sense to place the game in a certain spot you stick your fingers in your ears and start shouting.

For that reason, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are posting in this thread just for the sake of arguing, so I'm not going to bother any more. That being said, by all means have fun offering up whatever "counter arguments" you like in response to this post.

And again I have to state why is it that I'm suddenly not allowed to question what anyone else has to say here? If there is some point, arguement, or theory I don't agree with, then am I not allowed to say something? In fact all of this started because someone here didn't agree with something I said.

If I came off as agressive in this discussion then I apologize. However it's not like I wasn't ready for someone to prove me wrong on some point. I was more than ready. I just did not see anything that convinced me there was a flaw in what I originally thought. But I'm seeing the same resistence on your end as well, as you're choosing to end the arguement now rather than think about some of the things I've pointed out. I'm more than willing to discuss any of the previous items with anyone else that's actually willing to. But I guess it's better for the topic if the back and forth stopped. Though ironically this all did fit within the topic.

[Blazey Firekitty]

The evolution of the Metal Sonic line, to me at least, seems quite ambiguous, given that the version of Metal that appeared in Sonic 3 and Knuckles appeared to be an equal combination of traits from the speedy small, blue CD version, and the bulky, slower gray Sonic 2 incarnation.

[Yong]

The evolution of the Metal Sonic line, to me at least, seems quite ambiguous, given that the version of Metal that appeared in Sonic 3 and Knuckles appeared to be an equal combination of traits from the speedy small, blue CD version, and the bulky, slower gray Sonic 2 incarnation.

It's definitely debatable which is the superior model. Though I think the idea of Eggman going from a slick, fast model to a rather bulky, slow model makes little sense to most people.

[Blazey Firekitty]

It's definitely debatable which is the superior model. Though I think the idea of Eggman going from a slick, fast model to a rather bulky, slow model makes little sense to most people.

That's a good point.^^

"Hmm, I know what was wrong with my previous robot...It wasn't heavy enough! My next Metal Sonic will possess enough mass to crush Sonic under his bum! Ohohoho!"

[Octarine]

Going even deeper into speculation, the Death Egg might have taken a while to get built... It was certainly big enough; maybe its construction began prior to Sonic CD and it was only launched later. The Mecha Sonic seen in Sonic 2 could've been stashed aboard in case of emergencies and then promptly been forgotten about while Eggman began work on Metal Sonic proper.

Then again, the progression of Eggman's robot lines has always been a bit wonky. I mean, he included Emerl clones in the E-series for no particular reason and he freely updated the older models in the series whenever they "failed", so I'm willing to accept pretty much anything in that regard.

[Phos]

It's definitely debatable which is the superior model. Though I think the idea of Eggman going from a slick, fast model to a rather bulky, slow model makes little sense to most people.

I don't know about that, in Sonic CD, Sonic couldn't directly hurt Metal Sonic.

If you want to start speculating, you could guess that Robotnik intended to trap Sonic in a small area, one where Metal Sonic's maneuverability wouldn't be too useful, where attacks that effect a greater area would be more useful. It would also represent a change in strategy, taking on Sonic under his own terms rather than try and compete directly with him.

Then there's the consideration of what sort of collateral damage Metal Sonic would cause to the Death Egg itself. He has a propensity for smashing things, it seems.

But the games were developed in parallel with little consideration for the other, and that's ultimately going to curtail putting them in order.

[Yong]

Going even deeper into speculation, the Death Egg might have taken a while to get built... It was certainly big enough; maybe its construction began prior to Sonic CD and it was only launched later. The Mecha Sonic seen in Sonic 2 could've been stashed aboard in case of emergencies and then promptly been forgotten about while Eggman began work on Metal Sonic proper.

But then why would Eggman upgrade Mecha Sonic to its second mk instead of rebuilding Metal Sonic who we're assuming is the "superior model"?

I don't know about that, in Sonic CD, Sonic couldn't directly hurt Metal Sonic.

If you want to start speculating, you could guess that Robotnik intended to trap Sonic in a small area, one where Metal Sonic's maneuverability wouldn't be too useful, where attacks that effect a greater area would be more useful. It would also represent a change in strategy, taking on Sonic under his own terms rather than try and compete directly with him.

Then there's the consideration of what sort of collateral damage Metal Sonic would cause to the Death Egg itself. He has a propensity for smashing things, it seems.

But the games were developed in parallel with little consideration for the other, and that's ultimately going to curtail putting them in order.

I think the fact that Sonic couldn't touch Metal Sonic would give more reason to stuff the 2 of them into a small room and have at it, where by Metal Sonic would eventually win. And again if we're looking solely at Sonic CD Metal Sonic, then I don't think Eggman would have to worry about collateral damage as it was a wall that ultimately killed Metal Sonic, not the other way around.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Yong

[Indigo Rush]

Or maybe Sonic CD takes place after S3&K.

Or SEGA just didn't give a flying frick about continuity. I think I'll lean more towards that one.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I think the fact that Sonic couldn't touch Metal Sonic would give more reason to stuff the 2 of them into a small room and have at it, where by Metal Sonic would eventually win. And again if we're looking solely at Sonic CD Metal Sonic, then I don't think Eggman would have to worry about collateral damage as it was a wall that ultimately killed Metal Sonic, not the other way around.

I suppose it's possible that CD Metal was only designed for moving as fast as possible, without any capabilities for precision combat.

[Octarine]

But then why would Eggman upgrade Mecha Sonic to its second mk instead of rebuilding Metal Sonic who we're assuming is the "superior model"?

Since he was stuck on Angel Island, I'd say his resources were limited. Maybe he tossed Metal away for a while after he was defeated and he couldn't get at him during S3&K. This is Eggman, after all; I wouldn't put it past him to abandon a billion-dollar masterpiece of robotics in a temper tantrum.

I suppose it's possible that CD Metal was only designed for moving as fast as possible, without any capabilities for precision combat.

Or that.

I try not to think about the order of the classics much beyond 'these things all kind of pretty much happened at some point, in a way'. Future retcons or official orderings of the classics wouldn't bother me much, although I doubt that would ever happen anyway.

[Yong]

Since he was stuck on Angel Island, I'd say his resources were limited. Maybe he tossed Metal away for a while after he was defeated and he couldn't get at him during S3&K. This is Eggman, after all; I wouldn't put it past him to abandon a billion-dollar masterpiece of robotics in a temper tantrum.

Or that.

I try not to think about the order of the classics much beyond 'these things all kind of pretty much happened at some point, in a way'. Future retcons or official orderings of the classics wouldn't bother me much, although I doubt that would ever happen anyway.

It just bascially boils down to a speculation debate and the fact that Eggman can use whatever he wants, just as how Tails can use whatever Tornado model he wants. Which is why ultimately the robo Sonic lineage won't ultimately prove the order of the games.

[dreadnux'sultimatefan]

Remember Tails' Adventure? That could have been what Tails was doing when Sonic was fighting Metal Sonic, and saving Amy.

[Tornado]

First an explanation:

If you mean that little picture, which is by the way locked away by a secret code, I've never seen how that would affect the story in anyway. That's like saying there's something canonically wrong with Sonic Adventure DX because of the pressence of pictures with Chris.

It is much simpler than that. A lack of Tails in Sonic CD would make perfect sense if the game took place before Sonic 2 because Sonic wouldn't have met Tails yet.

With that out of the way:

Remember Tails' Adventure? That could have been what Tails was doing when Sonic was fighting Metal Sonic, and saving Amy.

If Tails Adventure took place at the same time as Sonic CD, that would mean that Sonic CD took place before Sonic 2. That being said, who knows whether the story of Tails Adventure still applies anymore anyways.

[Yong]

First an explanation:

It is much simpler than that. A lack of Tails in Sonic CD would make perfect sense if the game took place before Sonic 2 because Sonic wouldn't have met Tails yet.

Would be a nice bonus. But then there'd be no reason why Amy wasn't in the games supposedly after Sonic CD, aside from the one-shot character theory which doesn't hold any water since clearly Amy wasn't in only "one" game.

Again there's no need to explain why a character is absent from a game. No one character is obligated to appear in every game after their debut, otherwise Sega would do so, which it hasn't.

[Octarine]

Of the two, though, Amy is the one who'd be less likely to reappear at the time. This was the classic era, after all, when Tails was stuck to Sonic like glue and Amy hadn't had her Adventure series competence boost yet. I can't imagine her getting involved in taking down the Death Egg back then, even if she'd wanted to.

I actually kind of like the idea that Amy's known Sonic the longest of all the main cast members, even if they weren't close like Sonic and Tails were. It'd give her character a little more credibility, somehow.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Octarine

[jonathan]

I feel that SEGA would want you to believe Sonic meet Tails fist, but when you really analyze the placement of CD which seems to come before Sonic 2 one would have to say Sonic meet Amy first.