Is villain de-refermation ever satysfying?

[MetalSkulkBane]

If you read superhero comic books, I'm sure you have seen it at least once. The villain reflects on his actions, acknowledges his sins, grows and becomes a good guy.

But maaaan, they were so much marketable as villains. Time for brain damage, "haha, I tricked you, hero", retcons or don't even try, just make them go back to villainy in any lazy way possible. Cartoons do that much more rarely, but Miraculous Ladybug has one example. Doctor Who did that once with Master. Ben 10 has Charmcaster.

There are a few "grey" examples. Temporary back to villainy (Vegeta), one-day reformation (few times in Batman tas), general prolonging of reformation (Zuko) or redemption was so lame, de-redemption doesn't hurt (Snively in Archie).

But generally, have you ever experienced a story where a bad guy returns to villainy after a longer time and it felt satisfying? Or could you imagine this done right?

[GX -The Spindash-]

I can't point to any specific times, but I feel like there are probably a lot of examples in wrestling.

[Tornado]

Vegeta's inner turmoil/betrayal was by far the best part of the Buu arc, but he wasn't really actually a force of good at that point (so much as not actively a piece of shit) and I feel it was an extremely plausible reversion of his character to go back to being a villain from his more neutral stance on everything to that point.

[MetalSkulkBane]

12 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Vegeta's inner turmoil/betrayal was by far the best part of the Buu arc, but he wasn't really actually a force of good at that point (so much as not actively a piece of shit) and I feel it was an extremely plausible reversion of his character to go back to being a villain from his more neutral stance on everything to that point.

True, but since he returns to being a good guy yet again, that kinda proves my point. Even "neutral stance" was too much of a growth to de-reform him really.

[Blue Blood]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:31 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

True, but since he returns to being a good guy yet again, that kinda proves my point. Even "neutral stance" was too much of a growth to de-reform him really.

I'm no huge DBZ fan and my memory of the specifics is sketchy, but Vegata's "neutral" was more like him just biding his time, doing what he could to become stronger and not picking any fights. By the time the Buu saga came around and he betrayed everyone, I think he was genuinely ignorant to the progress that he'd made. He still thought he was the same person he was years ago. Either that, or he was actively rebelling against the person he'd become. It's not worlds apart from Zuko teaming up with Azula in TLA. They both spent so long identifying as one thing that they refused to accept that they could be anything different.

I actually don't remember how it was resolved in DBZ, like what actually led up to Vegeta eventually teaming up and fusing with Goku. But both he and Zuko needed to be villainous again to make their transitions believable. It was a key moment for both in their learnings, because neither one of them had a heel-face turn and just said "okay I'm good now" in a sudden epiphany. 

I really should go back to DBZ. When I watched Kai years ago, it had only been dubbed up to the end of the Cell Saga. And the story of DBZ Kakarot is disappointingly truncated. 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm no huge DBZ fan and my memory of the specifics is sketchy, but Vegata's "neutral" was more like him just biding his time, doing what he could to become stronger and not picking any fights. By the time the Buu saga came around and he betrayed everyone, I think he was genuinely ignorant to the progress that he'd made. He still thought he was the same person he was years ago. Either that, or he was actively rebelling against the person he'd become. It's not worlds apart from Zuko teaming up with Azula in TLA. They both spent so long identifying as one thing that they refused to accept that they could be anything different.

I actually don't remember how it was resolved in DBZ, like what actually led up to Vegeta eventually teaming up and fusing with Goku. But both he and Zuko needed to be villainous again to make their transitions believable. It was a key moment for both in their learnings, because neither one of them had a heel-face turn and just said "okay I'm good now" in a sudden epiphany. 

I really should go back to DBZ. When I watched Kai years ago, it had only been dubbed up to the end of the Cell Saga. And the story of DBZ Kakarot is disappointingly truncated. 

Vegeta was rejecting what he had become and Goku calls him out on it because Vegeta was full of shit. Vegeta knew he had changed but couldn't accept it because he thought having a family of his own to protect would finally let him close the gap between him and Goku , only to find out that nothing has changed and Goku was still stronger; so in Vegeta's mind, reverting to how he was before was the most surefire way to finally get what he (thought) wanted.

Vegeta's Face turn is resolved is when he finally accepts that Goku is simply better than him because of the type of person the latter is, and tries to support him as best he can afterwards....at least until Super, but we're not gonna talk about that. 

 

Its not quite as similar to Zuko as when he finally got what he wanted (his honor and his Dad's approval), he had changed so much that it no longer held the same meaning that it once did, and he was finally able to see that his Dad was a monster that needed to be stopped. 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I actually don't remember how it was resolved in DBZ, like what actually led up to Vegeta eventually teaming up and fusing with Goku.

The resolution to this development doesn't actually come during the fusion scene because Vegeta ends up still not having learned anything at that point. Him deciding to fuse with Goku happens because Goku tells him all the stuff he already called Vegeta out for when he was 'evil' + plus everyone having died since.

His resolution comes during the actual fight with Kid Boo and understanding why Goku will always be better.