Is it time to apologize to Pontac and Graff?

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, Forgeafrontier said:

The fact this is even a conversation in a forum dedicated to a PLATFORM video game shows how fucked this fanbases priorities are.

3D Sonic games have had pretty shallow gameplay for most of it's run, it's not surprising that no one who's in the fanbase is here for it. 

[Jay_Senju]

Yeah No. Sonic Games in the mid and late 00's honestly did not have great stories either but I feel like Pontac and Graff are just way worse.

[Red Hot Jack]

20 hours ago, Slashy said:

Team Sonic Racing has decent character interactions, I think Frontiers would have been praised as an improvement for that had they continued writing for the franchise.

I think the biggest change, aside from tonal whiplash, would be more jokes thrown in especially in place of continuity nods.

I am honestly biased but I really don't see any timeline where Sega would have given Pontaff freedom to write a serious story. They were mediocre when it came to comedic stories where they actually did fit, I really can't imagine them writing for Frontiers, if Sega had not hired Flynn they would probably have stuck with the japanese script translated. 

I do think Pontaff were hired because Sega wanted a more comedic approach though.

[Kuzu]

They did Lost World...

[Slashy]

38 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

I am honestly biased but I really don't see any timeline where Sega would have given Pontaff freedom to write a serious story. They were mediocre when it came to comedic stories where they actually did fit, I really can't imagine them writing for Frontiers, if Sega had not hired Flynn they would probably have stuck with the japanese script translated. 

I do think Pontaff were hired because Sega wanted a more comedic approach though.

They kind of were given the last act of Lost World and Forces. The problem is that it likely would have been a similar plot but much more lighthearted even at the expense of the story.

It really does not seem that hard to imagine Sonic Frontiers as a Pontac and Graff story since half the dialogue is not super consequential character interactions.

I wonder how Sage would be written though.

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 hour ago, Slashy said:

They kind of were given the last act of Lost World and Forces. The problem is that it likely would have been a similar plot but much more lighthearted even at the expense of the story.

It really does not seem that hard to imagine Sonic Frontiers as a Pontac and Graff story since half the dialogue is not super consequential character interactions.

I wonder how Sage would be written though.

I do wonder if Pontac and Graff would have made Sage as complex as she is in Sonic Frontiers.

[Slashy]

 

Also in regards to Flynn, I do not see him fixing the overall narrative problems. He does best when given some guidance otherwise I expect him to just maintain something like we have already seen because that is what the franchise is familiar with. Breaking out of the mold or coming up with a bold new idea is not his strong suit.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Slashy said:

Also in regards to Flynn, I do not see him fixing the overall narrative problems. He does best when given some guidance otherwise I expect him to just maintain something like we have already seen because that is what the franchise is familiar with. Breaking out of the mold or coming up with a bold new idea is not his strong suit.

Its less this and more that Sega aren't going to let him. He himself has said that Sega are the ones who come up with the overall direction of the game and where it goes, Flynn is just there to guide it and pitch ideas. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Metal Virus was definitely a bold new idea as a new take on the old Roboticizer, so I wouldn't say Flynn's lacking in that area.

[Slashy]

53 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its less this and more that Sega aren't going to let him. He himself has said that Sega are the ones who come up with the overall direction of the game and where it goes, Flynn is just there to guide it and pitch ideas. 

No it is both. Nothing from IDW screams amazing game idea, dude rarely even creates interesting locations and of his "new" ideas it is heavily borrowing from something in this franchise or another franchise.

Frontiers for its faults feels more fresh narrative wise than any storyline in IDW. I am not talking execution here.

Metal Virus itself is robotization mixed with the requirement from an Archie editor to do a story inspired by the Walking Dead. It is the closest to a fresh idea in the comic and even that is behind Frontiers despite all of its obvious inspirations.

[Rabbitearsblog]

3 hours ago, Slashy said:

Also in regards to Flynn, I do not see him fixing the overall narrative problems. He does best when given some guidance otherwise I expect him to just maintain something like we have already seen because that is what the franchise is familiar with. Breaking out of the mold or coming up with a bold new idea is not his strong suit.

Just as @Kuzusaid, SEGA is the one who decides what direction the Sonic franchise goes to. Flynn can pitch some ideas, but if SEGA don't want him to do certain things with the franchise, then there's only so much he can do with the overall narrative.  And even if SEGA does give him free reign to do whatever he wants with the franchise. there's still going to be some problems with the narrative, because it would be in Flynn's vision, not the fans' vision for the franchise if the fans wanted something else than what either Flynn or SEGA want to do with the franchise.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

12 hours ago, DaddlerTheDalek said:

I'm not the biggest fan of the Pontac and Graff era (more like neutral), but the harassment was completely unacceptable.

It had no good base at that either. Their stories aside from Colors, may have had problems, but they weren't even truly that bad.

Is it better that we have Ian Flynn now? Sure, but we could've had an interesting team dynamic between him and Pontaff, under better circumstances.

[Rabbitearsblog]

20 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It had no good base at that either. Their stories aside from Colors, may have had problems, but they weren't even truly that bad.

Is it better that we have Ian Flynn now? Sure, but we could've had an interesting team dynamic between him and Pontaff, under better circumstances.

I would have been okay with Pontac and Graff if they had a better balance between drama and comedy. It felt like whenever they tried their hand in writing dramatic stories like Sonic Forces and Sonic Lost World, the stories felt a bit forced rather than flow naturally with the characters' situations.

[FlameStream]

I personally didn't find their any of their work with the series appealing. Even Colors. Starting from specifically that game, my interest in the franchise definitively took a significant hit and I would see it reflected in other people in the circles I've visited. In the Japanese side, the hearts/values did not align and it was seen as an "Americanization".

That said, I do understand that they're not completely at fault for that.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Slashy said:

No it is both. Nothing from IDW screams amazing game idea, dude rarely even creates interesting locations and of his "new" ideas it is heavily borrowing from something in this franchise or another franchise.

Frontiers for its faults feels more fresh narrative wise than any storyline in IDW. I am not talking execution here.

Metal Virus itself is robotization mixed with the requirement from an Archie editor to do a story inspired by the Walking Dead. It is the closest to a fresh idea in the comic and even that is behind Frontiers despite all of its obvious inspirations.

Look dude, I really don't care about what personal issues you have with Ian Flynn and his work, that's a you problem. This is something he himself has said, on his own podcast, multiple times, that you can go watch. Anything else is merely guesswork.

[Slashy]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Look dude, I really don't care about what personal issues you have with Ian Flynn and his work, that's a you problem. This is something he himself has said, on his own podcast, multiple times, that you can go watch. Anything else is merely guesswork.

I am not denying it. I am saying I do not think it matters how much Sonic Team is controlling the story.

[Kuzu]

It matters when you're making claims that have no basis besides your own opinion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 hours ago, Slashy said:

No it is both. Nothing from IDW screams amazing game idea, dude rarely even creates interesting locations and of his "new" ideas it is heavily borrowing from something in this franchise or another franchise.

Frontiers for its faults feels more fresh narrative wise than any storyline in IDW. I am not talking execution here.

Metal Virus itself is robotization mixed with the requirement from an Archie editor to do a story inspired by the Walking Dead. It is the closest to a fresh idea in the comic and even that is behind Frontiers despite all of its obvious inspirations.

Now if this was Archie!Sonic, you’d have a lot more bold ideas…

[Rabbitearsblog]

13 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Now if this was Archie!Sonic, you’d have a lot more bold ideas…

It's a shame that SEGA is too controlling of the IDW comics.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I would have been okay with Pontac and Graff if they had a better balance between drama and comedy. It felt like whenever they tried their hand in writing dramatic stories like Sonic Forces and Sonic Lost World, the stories felt a bit forced rather than flow naturally with the characters' situations.

That's fair. By all accounts, Ian Flynn had the stage much better set, with his knowledge of the franchise, so I'm not surprised that Flynn's venture with writing on the games series overall turned out better.

I still hold that Colors was a good starting point as it provided something of a break from the norm, and I do feel like Lost World and Forces did have some good ideas in the writing, but didn't reach their proper potentials and unfortunately did occasionally misuse the characters.

[Rabbitearsblog]

9 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

That's fair. By all accounts, Ian Flynn had the stage much better set, with his knowledge of the franchise, so I'm not surprised that Flynn's venture with writing on the games series overall turned out better.

I still hold that Colors was a good starting point as it provided something of a break from the norm, and I do feel like Lost World and Forces did have some good ideas in the writing, but didn't reach their proper potentials and unfortunately did occasionally misuse the characters.

Yeah, I do think that Colors is good if you don't want a completely serious story.

[SticksSuperFan14]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:54 PM, FlameStream said:

I personally didn't find their any of their work with the series appealing. Even Colors. Starting from specifically that game, my interest in the franchise definitively took a significant hit and I would see it reflected in other people in the circles I've visited. In the Japanese side, the hearts/values did not align and it was seen as an "Americanization".

That said, I do understand that they're not completely at fault for that.

I'd argue Sonic has been "Americanized" from the start, his design was heavily inspired by American culture.

[castell-neath]

After Sonic 06, (and Adventure 2 to some extent) I think they took it back to a more irrelevant and family friendly style that, while not perfect, was more in line with the original trilogy of games.

The warehog was a forgivable mistep, the Yeti were the worst thing they produced I feel. Overall, i think they did the job needed at the time it was needed. 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 hours ago, castell-neath said:

After Sonic 06, (and Adventure 2 to some extent) I think they took it back to a more irrelevant and family friendly style that, while not perfect, was more in line with the original trilogy of games.

The warehog was a forgivable mistep, the Yeti were the worst thing they produced I feel. Overall, i think they did the job needed at the time it was needed. 

Except they didn’t create the Werehog or (to my knowledge) the Zeti.

And I would not call anything from their time more in line with the games. Especially with the likes of Forces, which is far removed from the likes of the Classics. Like what are you even basing this on?

[castell-neath]

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Except they didn’t create the Werehog or (to my knowledge) the Zeti.

And I would not call anything from their time more in line with the games. Especially with the likes of Forces, which is far removed from the likes of the Classics. Like what are you even basing this on?

Yes, i was wrong about unleashed...thats not them. My mistake.

I was thinking Colours / lost world / generations mostly. I totally forgot / "blocked out" Forces tbh lol.

With the 3 nentioned though I just feel the storylines in them had a more "oneshot" irrelevant feel to them with some minor but not essential connections, like 1,2 and 3 do ( i mean the death egg connection in 2/3 is there, but its not really required to enjoy the game per se).

I also think, from a more personal point of view it was these games which got me back "in love" with the franchise again after about 10/12 years of being lukewarm to it in my late teens /20s. They just provided a fun, easy to follow story that didnt relate all that much to Adventure/2/06/  games etc that I played but was not "in" to so so speak, and the "storybook" games I never played as I never owned a wii. 

I will admit that forces...oh dear. Especially Tails' line "sonic from another dimension"  after Gens made it pretty clear he was from the past.