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S0NIC-Keyblade 007

Too many Hedgehogs?

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Four more days will be the three year anniversary of the U.S. release of Sonic 2006 *horror music plays* which got me thinking of the introduction of Silver who as I can remember was criticized quite alot for the fact that he was a new reoccuring hedgehog. So Sonic 2006 introduced Silver, a new hedgehog to the Sonic franchise, (well techincally the game introduced 2 hedgehogs if you count Mephiles). Now I remember when this game was still early in development [oh man, those were the days, when this game actually brought hope to the Sonic franchise] before much was shown we were expecting to see a Sonic solo game, but then a little while after the game was announced we learned that Shadow would have a role in this game and that the game would also introduce a new hedgehog, Silver the Hedgehog. A few people were willing to give this new character a chance however, many Sonic fans began to immediately to bash Silver for the fact that he was a Hedgehog and a returning new character in Sonic Rivals, and then once Mephiles was revealed to be a Shadow replica, Sonic 15th anniversary just went down hill from there.

Now the Sonic franchise has had many hedgehogs over the years, beginning with Sonic the original true blue and way past cool hedgehog, then the addition of Amy Rose the female hedgehog and Metal Sonic the robotic hedgehog in 1993. Then jump 8 years later and we are given Shadow the dark and mysterious hedgehog then jump 5 more years and what...wait a minute, the newbie hedgehog got his own game 4 years after his introduction, and for the record most of the Sonic fanbase hated it, but why is that? Sure the game used the addition of a horrible weapons gimmick, unnecessary cursing, ridiculous level design, and a story that makes little to no sense. Before this game was released, many people beside the Shadow fanboys/fangirls saw this game as an epic failure but lets look at the biggest factor of all, the game wasn't about Sonic. Does the simple fact that this hedgehog isn't blue and doesn't have an attitude leads most of the Sonic fanbase to doubt the quality of the game? If so then fine, they cut back on a Sonic game for a day and saved themselves $50, however this brings me to the question, how would the Sonic fanbase react if a Silver, Metal Sonic, or heck even an Amy Rose game were announced? Anyways 5 years later we get Silver, the Hedgehog from the future who was for the most part put down by the audience before he could even audition for the play, and Mephiles "the recolor of a Sonic recolor" who was immediately killed off (however Mephiles being killed off is understandable since he did have the role of a villain).

I also wanted to point out, when Sonic was first created, the idea of him being a hedgehog was really unique. Sure there have been many animals used as cartoons through out the ages whether it was a talking mouse with a pet dog, or a rabbit competing with a duck, animals have always been used in cartoons but honestly have you ever seen a cartoony hedgehog? In a video game in fact, a hedgehog was a very unique animal to use and was rather edgy instead of being comical. I also wanted to point out one of Sonic's lines in SATAM, (now I know SATAM is not canon to the games however this line still makes a good point) whenever one of the freedom fighters was in trouble they would call for Sonic for help, Sonic would usually say something along the lines of "Hold on Sal here comes The Hedgehog." In my mind whenever Sonic says The Hedgehog I imagine him thinking "Oh yeah, I'm the one and only blue blur Sonic the Hedgehog and I'm ready to rock!" Now if Sonic were to say that line today, I could imagine something like this:

Sonic: Look out Eggman here comes The Hedgehog.

Eggman: Which hedgehog? You sending me the guy from the future? We have 5 hedgehogs now, your going to have to be way more specific.

Knuckles: *Looks at Sonic Rivals* Hey Eggman, at least you don't have to worry being the last character that player 1 chooses to play as due to the fact that your the only character in the game whose not a hedgehog.

Sonic was the only hedgehog in SATAM which made him unique and original. But now that we have so many hedgehogs in the series the fact that Sonic is a hedgehog doesn't make him stick out all that much anymore. We have so many hedgehogs now that whenever Sega decides to add another hedgehog they have to make the character stand out from the rest of the group by giving them outrageous features *Yes I'm looking at your hair style Silver*. Sonic's design has been made and replicated already, you can only make so many original hedgehogs.

So I anyway I want to ask, does the Sonic fanbase believe we have too many hedgehogs in the series? And how would you react if Sega were to add another hedgehog to the franchise, because I'm sure another hedgehog being added to the franchise is inevitable, just look at how popular Shadow became in 4 years and then boom he got his own game which is of course more money for Sega then one year later we get Silver. From what I can see: Popular hedgehog=More money for Sega. Personally if we do see another hedgehog added I would like that hedgehog to be a girl since we only have one female hedgehog and for the most part, she's really not in the rank of Sonic, Shadow, Silver, or even Metal Sonic in terms of gameplay, but that's just my opinion.

Edited by S0NIC Toadstool

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They should stop making hedgehogs, you can easily tell in Sonic 06 that they couldn't come up with any good designs for the hedgehog characters anymore so they had to settle with a crystalline Shadow recolor and a white hedgehog who has a flower of spines growing on his forehead.

Silver was a pointless addition to the Sonic Cast, as were the characters that came out just slightly before him.

And Mephiles should be a one shot since he is physically a recolor of a character based off of the super form of the main character. Mentally he is Metal Sonic who can speak (Metal overlord was insane, don't count him).

[/opinion]

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I wouldn't consider Metal Sonic or any of the other robots based on Sonic "hedgehogs", per se. They're Badniks designed after hedgehogs, much like Eggman's other robots are designed after different kinds of animals. Mephiles doesn't count either, as his Shadow-like appearance was just a form he took, rather than his actual appearance. (Doesn't make him any less unoriginal though, and of course I found him a lame villain.)

So really, our entire hedgehog roster comes down to Sonic, Amy, Shadow, and Silver. Still a lot, admittedly.

Edited by Dr. Mechano

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There are less hedgehogs than echidnas.

Hedgehogs: Sonic, Amy, Shadow, Silver

Echidnas: Knuckles, Tikal, Pachacamac, IX, Shade, Nestor, that space-pirate echidna and all of the Knuckles Clan and Nocturnus tribe.

I don't mind a new hedgehog again. They're fine. It's like ducks in Donald Duck's universe.

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There are less hedgehogs than echidnas.

Hedgehogs: Sonic, Amy, Shadow, Silver

Echidnas: Knuckles, Tikal, Pachacamac, IX, Shade, Nestor, that space-pirate echidna and all of the Knuckles Clan and Nocturnus tribe.

I don't mind a new hedgehog again. They're fine. It's like ducks in Donald Duck's universe.

I didn't think someone would pull that card so quickly. Nestor and the space pirate are NPCs no more important than Sandra and Wentos. Pachacamac was featured in just a few cutscenes and his name never mentioned in-game. Shade, Ix and Tikal have been featured in only one game each so far, only one of which as a playable character.

My opinion is that we have enough hedgehogs. Why make another when more creative designs of other animals can be made?

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I didn't think someone would pull that card so quickly. Nestor and the space pirate are NPCs no more important than Sandra and Wentos. Pachacamac was featured in just a few cutscenes and his name never mentioned in-game. Shade, Ix and Tikal have been featured in only one game each so far, only one of which as a playable character.

My opinion is that we have enough hedgehogs. Why make another when more creative designs of other animals can be made?

Totally agree. Plus, Tikal, Pachacamac, the ancient echidnas et all, are -- for want of a gentler term -- dead. Granted, that didn't stop Shadow, who I'm frankly still sad to see running around. Now, before you get the torches and pitch forks, hear me out on that one. I liked Shadow as a character in SA2. I believe SA2 has a great story, and Shadow being a hedgehog didn't bother me at all. He had an honorable death and a great ending. What bothered me is that SEGA figured out they had a new cash cow on their hands, and couldn't leave him alone. They brought him back, cheapened his death in essence, and whored him out to all the bored 13 year-olds with too much money on their hands.

So yes, I died a little inside when I saw trailers for Shadow, and I had to go, "Really?" when I saw Silver, and I just about choked when I heard about Mephiles (heard, because I never played the game). I think it's getting way out of control, but still every time I hear about a new Sonic title, I can't help but wonder what lame new hedgehog it'll introduce.

Even barring hedgehogs, though, the cast has gotten too begin since all additions after SA2. Sonic used to be about independence. I loved how in the old days, if you as the player idled long enough, he'd run off and finish the game without you. Now I can't get two seconds into a Sonic game without hearing about friendship and teamwork, and those are spiffy things, to be sure, but for goodness sake, Sonic shouldn't be spewing them.

I'm reminded of this comic Taeshilh at deviantART did:

sonicisruined.jpg

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We have enough hedgehogs already. Amy and Shadow were justified, Silver was pushing it, but the whole trilogy of hedgehogs for each timeline was a neat idea so I'll let it slide. Metal and variations don't count. We should have an army of them. :P

About the ammount of people Sonic hangs out with like that comic depicts, I think he should just keep it between Tails and Amy (this one could hang out with Cream once in awhile), and go to Angel Island every now and then (with the other two or not) just the annoy Knuckles (who could have some ties with the Chaotix). Shadow (with Rouge close by sometimes ) could be met randomly but more often than the rest of the cast, because a corrupt GUN or different morals as to how approach a solution to a problem, they could explore it with careful handling. Everyone else should be an extra Sonic meets very scarsely. The whole cast doesn't need to revolve around only one character.

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That comic brings a (sad) smile to my face every time I see it.

I think the series has a character clutter problem, but, you know, that's just how this series works. Ever since the 2D days, they seemed to add a character with every game. Granted, they've gotten to where they're adding several new characters each game, and they've forgotten that other species besides hedgehogs exist, but in the end, I guess a whole lot hasn't changed.

Even though I didn't care for them a whole lot once I got to know them, I have to admit the Babylon Rogues from Sonic Riders actually piqued my interest. It was stirring to see a type of animal that had never really been interpreted as a Sonic character (barring long forgotten Bean).

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I guess introducing new characters into the mix is just an attempt to make the game look fresh and original. You can only have Sonic and Eggman fight over the chaos emeralds so many times until the concept feels over done, so I guess then Sega thinks "We have to add a new character to spicen things up". But too many characters thrown in every game has become ridiculous, some people have suggested that instead of adding new characters Sega should bring back some old ones, however that still won't fix the fact that the character rooster is over crowded. I've noticed that Sega has been trying to avoid the crowded character rooster problem ever since 2006 by making solo Sonic games like Secret rings and unleashed, however now that brings up another issue. People will soon begin to think that their favorite characters are becoming ignored and tossed to the sides, much like Knuckles was in Unleashed. So now basically Sega is in a trap with no way out, They can add a new character/bring back an old character to keep the series original but overcrowd the character rooster, or they can make a game with few Sonic characters and piss off the ignored character's fanboys/fangirls.

Edited by S0NIC Toadstool

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SonicTimeline.jpg

I wanted to share a comic too

Silver was originaly going to be a minx(type of cat I think) named Vennice, personaly I think that if they were to go with that idea Silver(or Vennice I guesse :huh: )would fair a bit better with the fans

also, I just like to point out, for a game called Sonic the Hedgehog it had a story that focused a bit too much on Silver.

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[image]

I wanted to share a comic too

I've seen that thing so many times it's not funny anymore. *not like it ever was...*

And it's Mink, a weasel-like thing commonly using for, well... Fur.

I think...

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The problem with having a lot of characters isn't purely the number, but the quality. These days a lot of characters (new and old) have been poorly written, unnecessary, and/or unlikable. And I don't think it helps that the fanbase's first reaction is to shun anything new, rejecting characters before they even have a chance to prove themselves.

As for hedgehogs in particular, my main problem is that treating hedgehog characters as "safe" (which is apparently what they did with Silver) means we're less likely to see more interesting creatures as characters. If they couldn't even bring themselves to make Silver a mink, I don't see how we're going to get characters with species and designs as unique as, say, the Chaotix.

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The problem with having a lot of characters isn't purely the number, but the quality. These days a lot of characters (new and old) have been poorly written, unnecessary, and/or unlikable. And I don't think it helps that the fanbase's first reaction is to shun anything new, rejecting characters before they even have a chance to prove themselves.

As for hedgehogs in particular, my main problem is that treating hedgehog characters as "safe" (which is apparently what they did with Silver) means we're less likely to see more interesting creatures as characters. If they couldn't even bring themselves to make Silver a mink, I don't see how we're going to get characters with species and designs as unique as, say, the Chaotix.

Agreed. I don't think anyone would be complaining about the number so much if the characters themselve were more appealing. Although all I ever hear from the complainers is that so and so is so annoying, which leads me to believe that it's a no win on Sega's part simply because the complainers have little tolerance to anything that might be considered "annoying behavior."

I'm just indifferent about the hedgehogs. I don't really care. And I don't expect Sega to dive into an animal encyclopedia and find the most exotic animal they can that most people have never heard of. Although I have to admit I was little peeved that they did not give Chip a species at all.

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The thing I don't like about the hedgehog count in the games is that they're always main characters in some form. I, and I'm sure many others wouldn't mind all these hedgehogs if they weren't all main characters. As mentioned earlier, there are more echidnas than hedgehogs, but in the echidna's case, there is only one main echidna. If they ever decide to make more hedgehogs, they should really give them much lesser roles or better yet, not make them important.

Side Note: As for the comics about all those characters, there are really only a few in there that you actually see a lot, most of the others are rarely seen.

Edited by Black Spy

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Are we talking about the hedgehogs or is this also including other characters as well?

Either way, while we do have more hedgies than any other species (save for the humans), I find the issue of there being too many hedgehogs to be overexaggerated. "The/that Hedgehog" will always refer to Sonic the hedgehog unless it is pointed out to be someone else (or unless one of the other hedgehogs is mistaken to be Sonic).

On the subject of new characters being added, I'm not too fond of it, though if the character is well made and likable then I guess it dodges a bullet. Kind of like Chip in Unleashed, I was concerned about the idea of him being in the game but he actually turned out to be likable. Bringing in older characters will do absolutely nothing unless they too are well written and likable, no matter what the potential they can bring. You can't even replace all the other characters with them if they too wind up sucking, and I think that slips through a lot of peoples minds when refering to older members such as Nack and Bark to be more awesome than the newer characters. They haven't done a lot themselves to be judged the same way as Shadow and Blaze, but I guess that's just preference for ya.

Still, I gotta admit that I was pretty glad that the writers gave the metaphorical "fuck you" and decided to keep Knuckles and Shadow out of Unleashed. The Classic Trio could never be formed and...well I don't know what to say about Shadow, but I'm still cool with it.

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Nonsense! There is no such thing as too many hedgehogs. The more the merrier! :P Well I think it's not a bad idea. Sonic isn't the only one and I don't mind if they add more hedgehog characters.

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It's my philosophy with furries that there should be a balance of species. Hedgehogs from test tubes and hedgehogs from the future are not really my idea of that balance. It seems a little lazy to keep piling these hedgehogs on in a manner that seems like "He's just like Sonic! Only he's black/white/pink/metal!" Okay, it was pretty cool when they were robotic hedgehogs, because they were created to match his speed. But Shadow was pushing the evil twin gimmick, and Silver flat out does nothing for me. I should note the Echidnas are excepted here, because they're all historical characters from Knuckles' clan. They're not really players in the cast.

Edited by Stretchy Werewolf

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Either way, while we do have more hedgies than any other species (save for the humans), I find the issue of there being too many hedgehogs to be overexaggerated. "The/that Hedgehog" will always refer to Sonic the hedgehog unless it is pointed out to be someone else (or unless one of the other hedgehogs is mistaken to be Sonic).

Actually, hedgehogs aren't even the most common species in the series. They rank fifth (fourth behind humans)

1. Hominids [Humans]: 150+ (Too many to list here, of course.)

2. Aves [birds]: 12+ (Bean, Dr. Fukurokov, Flicky, Grand Kukku 15th, Jet, Kukky, Looky, Pecky, Speedy, Stolen, Storm, Wave, the Battle Kukku empire)

3. Phascolarctids [Koalas]: 7 (Colonel, Daikun, Gardon, Kylok, Muzy, Setter, Tabby)

4. Ursids [bears]: 4+ (Bark, Bearenger, Becky, Norman, the Vikings)

5. Erinaceids [Hedgehogs]: 4 (Amy, Shadow, Silver, Sonic)

That being said, I don't really have a problem with what species a character is - the character's...character defines the character for me. So, seeing as that Sonic, Amy, Shadow, and Silver have very different personalities and are all individuals in their own right, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that they are all hedgehogs.

Edited by Hunter the Christmas Fan

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Actually, hedgehogs aren't even the most common species in the series. They rank fifth (fourth behind humans)

1. Hominids [Humans]: 150+ (Too many to list here, of course.)

2. Aves [birds]: 11+ (Bean, Flicky, Grand Kukku 15th, Jet, Kukky, Looky, Pecky, Speedy, Stolen, Storm, Wave, the Battle Kukku empire)

3. Phascolarctids [Koalas]: 7 (Colonel, Daikun, Gardon, Kylok, Muzy, Setter, Tabby)

4. Ursids [bears]: 4+ (Bark, Bearenger, Becky, Norman, the Vikings)

5. Erinaceids [Hedgehogs]: 4 (Amy, Shadow, Silver, Sonic)

That being said, I don't really have a problem with what species a character is - the character's...character defines the character for me. So, seeing as that Sonic, Amy, Shadow, and Silver have very different personalities and are all individuals in their own right, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that they are all hedgehogs.

And allow me to say, "Who, who, who, who, who, and who?"

Now, in all seriousness, kudos on digging up that list. That's pretty extensive, and some of them I really haven't heard of. Sonic Trivia is strong in this one. However, though we can dig for obscure and largely unused characters and come up with a cornucopia of things that outnumber hedgehogs, I don't really see the Great Battlecuckoo family warring for screentime nowadays. Heck, the same is even true of the more recent Babylon Rogue birds. The fact of the matter is that any hedgehog added to the series isn't a one-shot affair, and will probably get a lot of screen time, and will almost always be playable at some point in some game.

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I thought that Silver was pushing it, but Amy, Shadow, Metal Sonic, etc were fantastic additions to the franchise. Bar Shadow at times, but I liked him in SA2, Battle, and Heroes. I just feel that at this point in the series' life his overly complex and serious storylines aren't necessary to the franchise.

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I don't want to be this guy, but I think all the hedgehogs suck now. Including Sonic... ... especially Sonic.

They could keep the whole hedgehog mania gig going if they differentiated the designs of subsequent characters much further from past designs, I guess. Maybe different-shaped eyes, fluff up their muzzles, etc., etc. Those are the only suggestions I can pitch in light of the obvious fact they'll never stop plugging hedgehogs.

But really, with the general surplus of characters as of late, I don't even stop to consider the amount of hedgehogs than I do just all the incredibly shitty characters, species aside.

... and dude, Matt & Mie? Here? Wow, that's a maw gaper. Nice to see you two here, how's the group going?

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At the risk of making myself out to be the most malleable lump of playdough in the tub, I really sort of echoed Nuke's sentiments before I started back into the Sonic community, here. I was jaded, and apathetic toward the Sonic series as a whole, and in my isolated circle of dork-friends, what was once a fond past time had become little more than joke fodder. When I jumped in here, though -- I dunno... I kinda started seeing the good things again. That's not to say I'm suddenly a fan again, but I can at least remember the good times, and maybe not be so pessimistic about future games... Maybe.

I still love me some SonAmy, though.

Also, hey, RJ! It totally has been a while! The group is... Well, it had a long, happy life -- Over seven years when it breathed its last breath, so I'd say it was a fairly good run. What about you? I gather from your post, you're not still running Project Mobius...

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Actually, hedgehogs aren't even the most common species in the series. They rank fifth (fourth behind humans)

1. Hominids [Humans]: 150+ (Too many to list here, of course.)

2. Aves [birds]: 11+ (Bean, Flicky, Grand Kukku 15th, Jet, Kukky, Looky, Pecky, Speedy, Stolen, Storm, Wave, the Battle Kukku empire)

3. Phascolarctids [Koalas]: 7 (Colonel, Daikun, Gardon, Kylok, Muzy, Setter, Tabby)

4. Ursids [bears]: 4+ (Bark, Bearenger, Becky, Norman, the Vikings)

5. Erinaceids [Hedgehogs]: 4 (Amy, Shadow, Silver, Sonic)

That being said, I don't really have a problem with what species a character is - the character's...character defines the character for me. So, seeing as that Sonic, Amy, Shadow, and Silver have very different personalities and are all individuals in their own right, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that they are all hedgehogs.

If you're going to compare playable hedgehog characters to human NPCs then you might as well throw in all the many types of Chao, and the ancient echidna civilization in Sonic Adventure. :lol:

But in all seriousness let me point out something in Sonic 2006. Look at all the playable characters we are given. Out of the nine playable characters in that game, four of them were hedgehogs also the three many playable characters were all hedgehogs. The true villian of the game was even a hedgehog/well, part God thing. I understand that the idea of that game was to have three hedgehogs of time, but still, in a game to show off the most recently popular characters within Sonic's 15 years of gaming and nearly half of them were hedgehogs, that sorta makes me concerned about what will eventually happen to the other non-hedgehog characters. Some people blame Shadow for Knuckles becoming soft since Sonic Heroes and for taking his role as Sonic's main rival, so that makes me wonder if other hedgehog characters will begin to shove off other non-hedgehog character's roles.

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