Should humans have "powers"?

[Diogenes]

I tried to come up with some witty intro but nothing worked so screw it.

There's all sorts of different abilities in the series, all the way from ordinary to blatant superpower. On the low end we've got characters like Big, Cream and Marine, who seem just a few steps above ordinary, to characters like Sonic, Shadow, Blaze, and Silver, whose powers are far removed from anything a normal person could ever hope to do.

But humans? Lowest of the low. In the best case there are geniuses, specifically the Robotnik family, and trained soldiers. But even then they're outclassed by their equivalent furries; Tails rivals Eggman's intelligence in addition to being able to fly and run fast, and Rouge also can fly, as well as climb walls, along with whatever training she's had from GUN. And of course the majority of humans are perfectly ordinary people, whereas even the lowest furry would have the same human traits and, most likely, some species-based talent on top of it (or just the standard Sonic package of spinball and above-average speed).

Of course, a large part of this is the series' focus on the furry characters. Eggman was the only notable human up until SA2, and even beyond that he's the only one that's managed to stay around, whereas there's a new animal character nearly every game, and most of them you couldn't force out if you tried. But then, it could be argued that they don't make important human characters because they don't have any special abilities; they can't go out adventuring like most of the cast, so they have no choice but to be stuck as support characters.

So, uh, the question. Should humans have "powers" the same way animal characters do? And if so, to what extent?

Personally I'd like to see some more useful human characters, but I wouldn't want it to get to the level that you could call them "superheroes". I could imagine, for example, a big brawler or martial arts guy that's able to match or exceed Knuckles' strength, someone who could actually give the heroes a good fight. Or they could bring back Sonicman from '06 and make him legitimately superhuman, but still far slower than Sonic. I think it'd be a good way to help break down the barrier between the furries and the humans so it isn't always...well, "the furries" and "the humans", as if they must always be on opposite sides of the room.

I'm not so sure about playable humans, tho'. I know we had Eggman in SA2, but he was confined to his mech, which is natural for him. I really can't imagine a human character (Eggman included) running around a loop...but it might just be that I'd have to get used to it first. Maybe if they design one like a Billy Hatcher character...

Also let's not quibble over whether or not the humans should exist in the first place, 'k?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's an interesting thought.

I think they should have powers,at least to give the other characters a run for their money.

I don't know how they would go about with their powers, unless they were physically enhanced superhumans. But at least it puts more balance to the humans and anthro characters in that superpowers aren't unique to the anthro creatures living in that world.

Super Strength and agility could be the basic superhuman powers, or they could have abilites from technology in order to match the other characters. If they're going to have powers that aren't technology based, say telekinesis for example, it would be interesting to see how they get them just to get the curiosity off our backs.

Since we've gone so long with no humans being much of a match to all the other characters (except Eggman), it would only make sense to show how they get their powers. Although if we're able to throw a random furry character with a superpower and no explanation, I don't think it would be too much of a problem to do the same for a human character. That's how we got Eggman.

Edited November 18, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Iceman Etika]

I get you.

Basically, it's just as you said, humans have always had a seriously inferior role compared to the few animal characters in the series, especially when depicted in "Shadow The Hedgehog".

If you choose the fully dark path, you witness Shadow completely destroying the entire Guardian Units of Nations without even breaking a damn sweat! Isn't G.U.N. supposed to be the strongest military force of the planet? Even though they are, the best defense they had against Shadow was some floating tin can robot which was just a shitty remake of an older model with legs. When I saw this, I honestly said to myself:

"G.U.N. I am disappoint."

But yes, not even a special force of humans to put up a fight against him at all. It was absolutely pathetic. And yes, I know Shadow The Hedgehog is a result of an experiment to create the ultimate life, but answer me this.

Why in the hell was the Ultimate Life Form created in the form of a hedgehog?

[Agent York]

B-But Eggman's smart and he builds and smashes things and cares he for no over one. D:

In seriousness though, I wouldn't like it. I've been fine with humans in the series, but to give them superpowers would seriously just ruin the whole point of the Sonic series in my own opinion. Then it's just more like every other superhero based collaboration, just with more woodland critters, and then humans would have bigger roles with strange powers that make no sense if applied. We got our genius human, most species (beside hedgehog) only get one representative super powered being.

[Legendary Emerald]

Well, it might have made Chris more interesting.

But I think SEGA knows it'd be a bit too violent to have Sonic characters getting into physical altercations with humans outside of metal suits. The exception being the E10 rated Shadow the Hedgehog.

[Iceman Etika]

Well, it might have made Chris more interesting.

But I think SEGA knows it'd be a bit too violent to have Sonic characters getting into physical altercations with humans outside of metal suits. The exception being the E10 rated Shadow the Hedgehog.

Yeah you're right. Maybe if this was in the 90's, then yes. But not in the year 2009. It's like after 9/11, cartoons turned pussy in giving viewers real action. God forbid "Captain Planet" ever appears on tv again.

-Iceman

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In seriousness though, I wouldn't like it. I've been fine with humans in the series, but to give them superpowers would seriously just ruin the whole point of the Sonic series in my own opinion. Then it's just more like every other superhero based collaboration, just with more woodland critters, and then humans would have bigger roles with strange powers that make no sense if applied.

Isn't that exactly what the Sonic series is, just without the human elements. Quite frankly multicolored animals with strange powers makes absolutely no sense to begin with, so how would it be any worse with humans having strange powers?

[Nepenthe]

While I have nothing against human characters, I have a staunch view about the series that makes me prefer that the animal cast be as unique and favored as they already are within the realm of the universe. After all, the eponymous protagonist and the character whose exploits and point of view we have been privy to the most are an animal's. Thus, he and the characters that are similar to him should naturally be the highlights of the series. Giving any and every race comparable abilities just for the sake of it or for 'equality' or whatever just further cheapens the appeal of the characters in question. It'd be like giving the Pokemon trainers comparable super powers to their own Pokemon. I don't want or care to see Blane performing offensive pyrokinetic abilities. I want to see his Arcanine and Magmar do it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Would it be best if only a select few had powers? Or atleast an ability to keep an edge on the anthro characters.

They don't necessarily need anything like the natural ability to sprout flames from their fingertips, or telekinesis, but it would be okay if one designed some kind of suit that could really keep the characters on their toes.

[Octarine]

Maybe if they design one like a Billy Hatcher character...

This is the key right here. The explanation for how such a character would come about is pretty unimportant, ultimately; the thing that really matters is whether that character would fit with the tone and aesthetic of the series. Tossing Superman in would obviously be a disaster, but a quirkier character (more like Billy or NiGHTS in appearance and skillset) might have a chance. Our lead human, after all, thrives on quirkiness: a newly-introduced major human character that was significantly less odd would be pretty forgettable by comparison.

If I were to choose a power for a human character to have, though, I'd still prefer it to be something vaguely technology-related, but in a different way from Eggman. Maybe... magic? Like, super-strong stage magic, with funny hats and putting people in boxes and the whole shebang? Super strength, flight and the like just seem too dull to sustain a human character, somehow.

[Nepenthe]

Would it be best if only a select few had powers? Or atleast an ability to keep an edge on the anthro characters.

They don't necessarily need anything like the natural ability to sprout flames from their fingertips, or telekinesis, but it would be okay if one designed some kind of suit that could really keep the characters on their toes.

Eggman and his family have been producing machinery to give the cast a run for their money since day one, so it wouldn't exactly be something that irks me. In fact, a G.I Joe-esque sequence between a suited person and some of the cast might be kinda cool. But again, I don't see the need or the reason to push hypothetical super-humans to the forefront of this series when the whole appeal of the cast lies mostly in the fact that they are mostly a rainbow-colored menagerie of super-powered animals.

[Dr. Mechano]

Absolutely.

There's no canonical statement directly affirming that animals are naturally stronger or faster than humans. The animals who do have these traits only have them because they're the heroes and, thusly, "special" in the context of their world. Non-adventuring animals (Vanilla for example) are rather unlikely to have any exceptional powers or abilities.

By the same token, most humans are probably of normal realistic strength, but it stands to reason that there should be a few super-powered ones in existence as well. Granted, I still maintain that Eggman's ridiculous speed throughout the series happens often enough to warrant canon status, and may have even ascended to being an official running gag (If you'll excuse the pun) in the series by this point. Afterall, if Tails can be smart and fast, so can Eggman- There's no evidence to the contrary, and if we take what we see in-game at face value, the man's a speed demon.

Punching trains in Sonic Riders might be slightly more questionable- Slightly. He is a mad scientist, and pumping himself full of scientifically-constructed power-ups isn't beyond his capability. With a physiche not unlike the fat yet inexplicably tough tough Wario, this could be playing on a certain trope about surprisingly strong and fast fat characters.

Some non-superpowered animals are good, and some superpowered humans are good. A nice balance on both sides could keep things interesting, and in a series as fantastic as Sonic, "realism" is hardly an issue to concern ourselves with. Learn to stop worrying and love the improbable ridiculousness of a marathon-running train-punching old fat man, and similar potential for superhuman ability in the human cast. In a series that already mirrors Mario in several ways, this is hardly a surprising direction to go in in the end.

[Phos]

Hmmm...

An interesting little tidbit about the Bayformers movie: Michael Bay's excuse for the human's weapons being so effective against the Decepticons is that if they were ineffective, the Decipticons would have no reason to disguise themselves as earthy vehicles. In the case, I think it's over thinking it a little*, it is still something worth considering, even though it mostly serves as an excuse to film a bunch of military hardware. Interesting to think about, BUT if the humans are able to defend themselves from the Decepticons, What do they need the Autobots for?

*And their transformations could still allow rival factions to hide from one another, and they normally transformed for the sake of their alternate form's specific traits

[Indigo Rush]

Didn't Princess Elise have certain "powers" in That Game That Must Not Be Named?

[Diogenes]

Giving any and every race comparable abilities just for the sake of it or for 'equality' or whatever just further cheapens the appeal of the characters in question.

Why? Sonic didn't become less interesting when we found out there was a superpowered fox, echidna, cat, chameleon, etc. I don't see how a few not-useless humans would suddenly throw things off.

It'd be like giving the Pokemon trainers comparable super powers to their own Pokemon.

Sabrina.

...hm, I don't see the Pokemon universe collapsing in on itself yet...

Coincidentally, Blaine is a total badass in Pokemon Adventures, even if he can't shoot fire from his fingertips.

But again, I don't see the need or the reason to push hypothetical super-humans to the forefront of this series when the whole appeal of the cast lies mostly in the fact that they are mostly a rainbow-colored menagerie of super-powered animals.

Who said anything about the forefront? I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of new human characters overshadowing the main characters. But it'd be nice if there was some evidence that not all humans are useless.

[Flyboy Fox]

I have to say I'm against the idea. Why? Because the fact that the humans don't have powers is actually the one small thing that makes them interesting to me. They have to rely entirely on their ingenuity to be a formidable force for good OR evil. The fact that Robotnik's only 'super power' is his gigantic IQ (I don't buy the canon speed thing, if only because I think that cheapens him) makes him more of a respectable villain in my eyes.

Also, as far as the "anthros having powers is just as weird" argument, I'll say two things; firstly, anthros in the first place are weird XD And secondly, it makes sense to me that if the anthros are less common than humans, a minority even, it could easily be more likely for them to have evolved powers in order to avoid dying out completely - a survival of the fittest thing. I can't see the humans, in their vast numbers, needing any such advantages. They seem to be doing quite fine for themselves!

But anyway, yeah, most of all I just kinda like that the humans are, well, normal. You probably all know that I've never been that fond of the explosion of visually prominent human dwellers. But the one thing that redeems them to me is that they're average joes in a far from average world XD

[Phos]

Who said anything about the forefront? I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of new human characters overshadowing the main characters. But it'd be nice if there was some evidence that not all humans are useless.

How are you going to show that they have powers if you aren't going to show that they have powers? Save some kind of 24 style split view point, you can only show the audience one thing at a time. The most leeway that I can see happening would be a scenario where the enemy mooks outnumber Sonic greatly, but the military is able to destroy a lot of them. But then you run into the problem I was talking about just above: What do you need Sonic for?

...hm, I don't see the Pokemon universe collapsing in on itself yet...

Not too familiar with her, but in any sort of animated medium, there's a lot of ground between mind control and throwing lighting around. I also have a sort of counterexample: Masaru, from Digimon. Yeah, it's hilarious, but it really seem to be at the expence of the overall series. When he's going around punching everything, I found myself question if this was actually Digimon that these clips were pulled from.

[Meow]

Personally I hope they don't. My reasoning for this is simple, I want Eggman to stand out. Like it was already mentioned he was the only notable/important human really until the Adventure series began. I think by keeping it this way that he is the only one with a really useful ability he stands out amongst the crowd. Otherwise you could have a zillion different human villains and Eggman loses his uniqueness. Think about villains like Mephiles and whatnot...every time one that comes around like him that is anthro, people still want Eggman as the main villain. Same with the monsters of the week. Now say we had human villain after human villain, would Eggman really be so special and desired anymore (take a look at the main cast and how often they get new additions that people wish would go away)? What if someone people found to be cooler than him came along? I don't know - I think having Eggman be the only human that is playing a major part with 'powers' (his mind) makes him stand out quite a lot.

[Badnik Zero]

It's probably not a good idea. In a lot of ways it's like the nature versus technology argument we can never agree upon. The current cast has natural abilities, they're already superpowered animals. When you introduce superpowered humans, it stops being the Sonic series. There's some wiggle room in characters like Robotnik, but he's allowed to get away with his machines in the context of plot because of cartoon logic. Obviously it's a superhuman feat to amass large sci-fi armies with no mention of where it comes from, it's just mad science and we're not expected to question that. But you're already taking away part of what makes him human by giving him powers. It separates him from the humans as a character as well. Notice how animal characters don't really make use of technology as part of their gimmick, and aside from the Tornado (which established itself early in the series) any mundane human elements are received poorly. People don't like characters driving cars or shooting guns, they want to see them on their feet and teleporting, using their powers. It's like saying Wolverine would be cooler with a chainsaw. It's just the opposite for the humans, for the most part they're ordinary people. Including human assassins and treasure hunters or whatever kind of Batman powerless superheroes would seem silly. I don't mind the more fantastical elements of Sonic's humans, I love that stuff. Give me a futuristic city in this series any day. But I think humans in the series should stick to human things. Strange future tech like Robotnik uses, or whatever GUN machines they had in Shadow, less X-men and more OVA. I like the use of humans in the Storybook games, because they realized things like magic and genies can't exist in the Sonicverse without things getting weird. Shahra and Merlina appear to be human, but they're a little more than human. Anyways, let's restrict the wacky abilities to furries only.

[Nepenthe]

Why? Sonic didn't become less interesting when we found out there was a superpowered fox, echidna, cat, chameleon, etc. I don't see how a few not-useless humans would suddenly throw things off.

I made an effort to specifically mention super-powered animals thus including the cast of characters you described. Most, if not all of the major animal debuts this series has had thus far have produced characters outfitted with a power or ability of some sort, and it is merely the repetition of this idea that has personally made it a near absolute of the universe in question in the same way that I understand that rings give Sonic protective abilities, despite the fact that it is very possible that rings could do him harm in a particular happenstance even as weird and contradictory as it would be. The possibility of something's existence doesn't mean that it couldn't be an anomaly which is what I personally feel introducing a major human with any significant powers would be at this point in time.

Sabrina.

...hm, I don't see the Pokemon universe collapsing in on itself yet...

I will give you the Pokemon example (although Sabrina was introduced rather early in the series' lifespan which is really the backbone of my argument here), although I feel the general argument still holds well. Plenty of franchises have gotten away with a small number of races being presented as special, more powerful, or unique.

Coincidentally, Blaine is a total badass in Pokemon Adventures, even if he can't shoot fire from his fingertips.

I'm not really against badasses of any species. xP

Who said anything about the forefront? I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of new human characters overshadowing the main characters. But it'd be nice if there was some evidence that not all humans are useless.

Since when is a character's use determined by their powers or lack thereof? Eggman is the second-most important character of the series and you'd be hardpressed to say he is anywhere near as physically gifted as Sonic. A character's use, purpose, and likeability isn't determined by how fast they can run or how many boulders they can break. It's how competently they're written.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If we were to have at least one or two super powered humans, I don't think we'll lose Eggman's uniqueness. Funny enough, it would be interesting to see Eggman actually beat a super powered human using just his brain while he himself is physically ordinary, or have that super powered human be on his side and try to block his enemies from ruining his plans.

Or if an ordinary human is skilled in martial arts and acrobatic to keep up with other characters. It would be something to see a human actually fight on equal grounds with Knuckles in a one-on-one match.

But this has to be subtle with just a very few number of humans. Overdo it and you really muck things up.

How are you going to show that they have powers if you aren't going to show that they have powers? Save some kind of 24 style split view point, you can only show the audience one thing at a time. The most leeway that I can see happening would be a scenario where the enemy mooks outnumber Sonic greatly, but the military is able to destroy a lot of them. But then you run into the problem I was talking about just above: What do you need Sonic for?

To tip the balance and take down the head guy in charge, and in the Transformers AND Sonic series that's not an easy task for either militaries to handle. Anyone can take down the grunts with a few bullets or homing attack, but to take down the leader is a whole new ball game, as they're either leagues stronger than the grunts able to cripple forces with a wave of the hand or their incredibly smart thinking several steps ahead of them and crippling their forces with a new weapon they're unprepared and powerless against. Only one person is shown capable to defeat the foes no matter how strong or smart they are, and that's why they need Sonic or Optimus Prime or at least someone akin to their level.

If we we're to look at ShTH despite how poor the game is, the armies of the respective factions we're pretty much equal in strength, so in order to tip the scales to their favor they needed to call upon one of the characters in order to help rid the area of the opposing force.

But here's another question: Who said the super powered human had to be on the good guy's side?

Okay yeah, seeing as how Eggman is generally the only evil human while all other humans are good, that would be something preventing that. But who knows? A human could actually look up to Eggman and join his side and gain powers. Huh? Huh?

Edited November 18, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

To tip the balance and take down the head guy in charge, and in the Transformers AND Sonic series that's not an easy task for either militaries to handle. Anyone can take down the grunts with a few bullets or homing attack, but to take down the leader is a whole new ball game, as they're either leagues stronger than the grunts able to cripple forces with a wave of the hand or their incredibly smart thinking several steps ahead of them and crippling their forces with a new weapon they're unprepared and powerless against. Only one person is shown capable to defeat the foes no matter how strong or smart they are, and that's why they need Sonic or Optimus Prime or at least someone akin to their level.

Something you might notice by watching the first Bayformers movie: The Decipticons spend much more effort hiding from the military than they do the Autobots. Pretty much every time the Decpiticons see an Autobot, they go right for it, stealth be damned, but feel the need to use the element of surprise against the military. In fact, I think Bonecrusher is the only Decepticon taken down solely by the Autobots. The rest are shot to pieces by the military, or in the case of Megatron, killed by Sam. Yeah, really hard to kill head head honcho there. I didn't see anything to suggest that the military wouldn't have been able to take him down if the battle had taken place in a location that didn't limit line of sight and air support. Star Scream, the flying specialist, was forced to retreat by a bunch of F-22's.

I think most people got this, but just in case anyone didn't, the whole Transformers thing was an example of what happens when effectiveness is too wide spread.

Okay yeah, seeing as how Eggman is generally the only evil human while all other humans are good, that would be something preventing that. But who knows? A human could actually look up to Eggman and join his side and gain powers. Huh? Huh?

Now all you've done is combine two prevalent complaints into one: The humans are now the Monster of the Week.

[DaBatGuy]

The ironic thing ia that we've had a few super powered humans so far, Elise had her magic bubble, Sharha and Erazor, while genies, were designed as humanoid creatures unlike the Babylon Rogues, Merlina was a wizard, and even Witchcart who was a witch(no shit!). I prefer they keep the "super" humans as they are now, either villains or support characters that prove their worth with a Deus ex Machina in the final act.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Winged Psycho Rat Man

[Dr. Mechano]

Oh right, Witchcart's a great example; Forgot all about her!

While Erazor and Shahra are genies, and may not technically be human, Witchcart is definitely a human witch, and has magical powers. So she was a case of "human with powers" that predates even Sonic Adventure, showing that even in the classic era this was an acceptable concept.

Witchcart continues to be the ultimate loophole to fanon "rules" for the series; I grow to like her appearance in the series more and more as time passes.

Merlina too, who I think was human as well, also fits the bill- Which only goes to show that the "rules" haven't changed and that the concept is still "allowed."

Edited November 18, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[Flyboy Fox]

I'm still not sure that I would count Merlina, as she came from inside a book that was supposed to be fantastical (a fairy tale) even by Sonic's world's standards. So, I'd see her as 'alternate universe' in a way; not a true representation of humans in Sonic's world.

But even without that, I still stand by the feeling that there is no need for humans to be super powered, and it makes them more impressive if they're not.

Doc, haven't you always argued for the inherent value of humans? Therefore it surprises me that you'd want to give them powers akin to the anthro cast. I'd have thought we were at least on the same page regarding the concept that the human characters can be interesting because they are human and therefore must rely on their ingenuity, creativity and inherent humanity alone to be formidable without the need for powers. Aww well.