Should humans have "powers"?

[Dr. Mechano]

Doc, haven't you always argued for the inherent value of humans? Therefore it surprises me that you'd want to give them powers akin to the anthro cast. I'd have thought we were at least on the same page regarding the concept that the human characters can be interesting because they are human and therefore must rely on their ingenuity, creativity and inherent humanity alone to be formidable without the need for powers. Aww well.

I don't want to give "them" (as a collective group) powers. I'm only arguing that it would be fine for some to have powers, and by the same token, it would be fine for some animals not to have them. Fang, for example, relies on guns amd mechs rather than his own strength (Much like a certain iconic human in the series). To have the occasional human with super-abilities wouldn't cheapen the human casts' overall humanity, as Witchcart and Merlina certainly haven't altered the "norms" of what it means to be a human in the Sonic cast.

[Solly]

I don't really have anything against humans having powers, but I don't know if I'd want Eggman to be some kind of super-human(well, he already has super-human intelligence, but still). I think Eggman works best when using his genius as a weapon.

Punching trains in Sonic Riders might be slightly more questionable- Slightly. He is a mad scientist, and pumping himself full of scientifically-constructed power-ups isn't beyond his capability. With a physiche not unlike the fat yet inexplicably tough tough Wario, this could be playing on a certain trope about surprisingly strong and fast fat characters.

I personally don't consider the Riders series to be an accurate representation of each characters abilities. Also, every character can punch trains/cars in the second game if they're on a bike, so I wouldn't look too far into it.

As for Eggman's speed, the games never make it clear how fast he's able to go. Sometimes he's portrayed as quick but many will argue that it's just for comedic effect. He's certainly not one of the faster character in the series, but I suppose that he could be still reasonably quick.

[psikeout]

I was going to say "inb4supersprintingeggman" as a joke, but then it was actually brought up semi-seriously. I personally won't believe that Eggman runs super-fast as anything more than a fun sight gag. I love the big guy's guts out, don't get me wrong, but imagining that ol' butterball on toothpicks keeping up with (or outpacing) Sonic, Metal Sonic, and Shadow sends my mental sillyometer into a tizzy. (Then again, who knows; perhaps Eggman is an amputee with crazy cyborg legs under those disturbingly snug PVC pants. Wait. Ugh. Why is visiting TSS making me start to contemplate what's under Eggman's pants? This is horrible.)

Anyway, the topic is actually something I've idly pondered before, so I find seeing the opinions on it interesting. At the same time, I have a hard time formulating an opinion of my own. It feels like the powers the "animal" characters have are almost always loosely based on or at least inspired by the features of the real-life creatures (though Knuckles seriously pushes all boundaries in this respect). With that view in mind, what could a human do that wouldn't seem a little out of left field?

Even still, I think I'd like to see it, but only if they can design said human in a way that doesn't look strange combating a Sonic character, as others have brought up with the idea of Billy Hatcher-esque characters. If you've ever played Brawl, you know how funny it looks to see Solid Snake and Sonic duking it out. I'd say that's precisely what needs to be avoided.

Who knows, though. Maybe they could make humans into the monster of the week. I never had anything against monsters of the week in video games, personally. Following the darker-toned storytelling style of SA2, maybe some organization like GUN would start to bioengineer humans specifically to even the playing field between human and non-human. It wouldn't be a focal point of the story, but it could give an interesting sub-boss or two, if the human character was designed well.

[Dr. Mechano]

I love the big guy's guts out, don't get me wrong, but imagining that ol' butterball on toothpicks keeping up with (or outpacing) Sonic, Metal Sonic, and Shadow sends my mental sillyometer into a tizzy.

Which is kind of the crux of the argument, isn't it?

It all depends on how "seriously" one takes the Sonic series, which admittedly, isn't consistent enough with itself to make a remotely objective judgment on. The games have been on both extremes of the serious/silly scale, and given my vast preference for a campier, sillier, and more bizarrely surreal Sonic, I can see Eggman's improbable prowess fitting right in, especially in the classic games where this was a common theme.

Oddly, though 2K6 Eggman is arguably more fit than his classic or Adventure designs, I can't see him displaying fantastic feats of strength, just because he's too realistic. In short, I can buy a cartoony fat man's unrealistic abilities a lot more than a realistically-proportioned not-so-fat man's unrealistic abilities, despite the latter logically being more fit. Go figure that one out.

[batson]

Personally I hope they don't. My reasoning for this is simple, I want Eggman to stand out. Like it was already mentioned he was the only notable/important human really until the Adventure series began. I think by keeping it this way that he is the only one with a really useful ability he stands out amongst the crowd. Otherwise you could have a zillion different human villains and Eggman loses his uniqueness. Think about villains like Mephiles and whatnot...every time one that comes around like him that is anthro, people still want Eggman as the main villain. Same with the monsters of the week. Now say we had human villain after human villain, would Eggman really be so special and desired anymore (take a look at the main cast and how often they get new additions that people wish would go away)? What if someone people found to be cooler than him came along? I don't know - I think having Eggman be the only human that is playing a major part with 'powers' (his mind) makes him stand out quite a lot.

I agree. I like it when Eggman appears to be the only human character in the series to be truly far-out and "cartoony" like the anthros, because that makes him stand out more against the other human characters.

I like the notion that most people in Sonic's world are perfectly normal human beings with perfectly normal lives, but then there are these (relatively) few extraordinary, colorful beings in this world; beings who have amazing abilities, look unique and live lives that are far from normal, and that these extraordinary beings in this otherwise mundance world are the characters the series focuses on. And i also like how, despite these "special beings" almost per definition being anthros, Eggman is also one of them despite being human. A fact that makes him completely unique.

I especially liked it back in the Dreamcast-GameCube era when Eggman really was the only human to look truly "cartoony". But then along came Sonic 06 and made Eggman less unique by making him realistic-looking, and after that, games like Unleashed have also made Eggman less unique but in another way, namely by making all other humans cartoony-looking as well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Something you might notice by watching the first Bayformers movie: The Decipticons spend much more effort hiding from the military than they do the Autobots. Pretty much every time the Decpiticons see an Autobot, they go right for it, stealth be damned, but feel the need to use the element of surprise against the military. In fact, I think Bonecrusher is the only Decepticon taken down solely by the Autobots. The rest are shot to pieces by the military, or in the case of Megatron, killed by Sam. Yeah, really hard to kill head head honcho there. I didn't see anything to suggest that the military wouldn't have been able to take him down if the battle had taken place in a location that didn't limit line of sight and air support. Star Scream, the flying specialist, was forced to retreat by a bunch of F-22's.

Well, I'll admit that I haven't seen the first Transformers movie (I was basing my thoughts on the second I guess) to know that, but while Transformers doesn't fit the point I made, the point, however, still stands strong for Sonic's case. The GUN military and Eggman's military are pretty evenly matched, and Sonic (or any character similar) is the trump card in order to tip that balance against the opposing side. Taking on Eggman's grunts is a cakewalk for the military, while taking on Eggman himself is more hell than it's worth. If Eggman were take on the military by himself, all he needs is a mech with his own ass in the seat and lasers and bullets blazing away and he would win without a doubt despite him being outnumbered. Which is where Sonic comes in. If Sonic's around Eggman is more than likely to fail, but without him he'll likely win.

Now all you've done is combine two prevalent complaints into one: The humans are now the Monster of the Week.

Actually, no I haven't.

The problem with that claim is that for the super powered human to be the Monster of the Week, the human would have to be somewhat more powerful than all the other characters from the start, would have to have a secret agenda of its own, transform and become exponentially powerful and become the final boss at the end where you need the Chaos Emeralds to defeat him. If humans become the Monster of the Week simply because they get simple superpowers like superspeed, strength, flight, or any single power, then the same can be said for every other character.

That can't be the case if that human had only one ability far below the titans such as Chaos, Biolizard, Mephiles/Iblis/Solaris, Dark Gaia and more on par with characters like Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, and the others. A human with powers should be able defeat them or be defeated in the same sense as it would if Sonic and Knuckles were to duke it out, but he shouldn't be any more powerful than all the other characters. If you give him too much power, then the human becomes the Monster of the Week. Other than that, he's just a human with a superpower and nothing more. He'd be just like every other character, except he's on Eggman's side.

Edited November 18, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[psikeout]

Oddly, though 2K6 Eggman is arguably more fit than his classic or Adventure designs, I can't see him displaying fantastic feats of strength, just because he's too realistic. In short, I can buy a cartoony fat man's unrealistic abilities a lot more than a realistically-proportioned not-so-fat man's unrealistic abilities, despite the latter logically being more fit. Go figure that one out.

No, no, I think it makes perfect sense. Weird how that works out, isn't it? I guess it's because cartoony Eggman is more alien to us, and allows us a greater suspension of disbelief. However, 2k6 Eggman is more realistically shaped, so we have some predefined expectations around what he should be capable of.

As for the rest of the argument, though, yeah. It's shaky ground to say how cartoony the Sonic series should be. Truth be told, I don't mind sight gags, but it'd just be... somehow worse if Sega came straight out and said "OH AND EGGMAN RUNS ALMOST 800MPH BTW LOL" you know? But I'm okay with him being ambiguously "fast" as long as it's never over-explored.

[Ring Master]

By the same token, most humans are probably of normal realistic strength, but it stands to reason that there should be a few super-powered ones in existence as well. Granted, I still maintain that Eggman's ridiculous speed throughout the series happens often enough to warrant canon status, and may have even ascended to being an official running gag (If you'll excuse the pun) in the series by this point. Afterall, if Tails can be smart and fast, so can Eggman- There's no evidence to the contrary, and if we take what we see in-game at face value, the man's a speed demon.

You know, it makes complete sense, Eggman always seems to escape when he's being chased.

But it's a well known fact that fat people can run very fast for short distances!

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Urgh. Super-powered humans in Sonic? No thanks. Very much no thanks.

The minor saving grace of having mass-humans around at all is their very normalcy. Super-powering them devalues what it is that makes the furry protaganists special... and what makes Sonic different from Street Fighter. If one well-trained Chinaman, of which there are presumably lots hanging around, can kung-fu Knuckles to a standstill, exactly what chance does the Guardian have of keeping the ME in place?

I'll admit that a handful of ubermensch wouldn't instantly derail what is already a rather schizophrenic series, but from an aesthetic standpoint I don't think they'd fit in with the "cool animals fight evil military-industrial complex" dynamic.

Also, Since when did Witchkart have "powers"? She claims to be able to turn dissenters into crystal, but the most impressive thing she ever actually does is fire energy bolts at Tails from a beep-booping electric rail cart. Badniks do that all the time, and no-one calls them magic. :/

And Merlina is a tree. Seriously.

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't think they'd fit in with the "cool animals fight evil military-industrial complex" dynamic.

I'd argue it's not that dynamic anyway; I mean, Eggman's base (The aforementioned "military-industrial complex") is usually just a headquarters from which the man himself launches schemes to take over the world. The base itself is rarely the heroes' prime target, especially in recent games, where Eggman's super weapon is often situated somewhere else entirely.

Also, Since when did Witchkart have "powers"? She claims to be able to turn dissenters into crystal, but the most impressive thing she ever actually does is fire energy bolts at Tails from a beep-booping electric rail cart. Badniks do that all the time, and no-one calls them magic. :/

That's because with Badniks, it's science! Witchcart's energy bolts are magical in nature, and minor as they may be, count as a power of hers.

I rather like her style; It's quirky, comical, and not terribly overpowered. Human characters with abilities like this would fit into the "one basic special ability" dynamic that most Sonic characters tend to end up going by. In Witchcart's case, it's firing magical bolts and (possibly) turning people into crystal.

[Mike]

If ordinary characters have extraordinary powers it'll make the extraordinary characters feel more ordinary.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If ordinary characters have extraordinary powers it'll make the extraordinary characters feel more ordinary.

I can't see how that would be the case if only a select few of ordinary humans were to gain extradinary powers.

[Ducktor Naldush]

I'm all for it, but we must also have "Mobians" with ordinary powers, to balance things. Like Nack, for example. I would like to see Witchcart in a game again, just to explore more deeply the matter. Just don't go Captain Planet or SuperMan with it.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Franlight

[HunterTSF]

Humans? With "powers"? Oh yeah, I'm all for that.

On some of Sonic's more recent outings (Sonic Unleashed and Sonic the Hedgehog), it has been demonstrated that some of the human residents of Earth actually do posses some supernatural powers! Kwami and Kwod can communicate with spirits, and Antonio and Renzo are spirits themselves. Unfortunately... none of these would be really classifiable as superpowers. Witchcart has magical abilities, though.

I wouldn't mind seeing some humans with more superhuman abilities, on that note. But as of now, technology seems to be the main route of self-enhancement in the series. (See: Eggman, Nega, and G.U.N.'s mechs) Which I'm totally fine with, because mechs are cool.

I could imagine, for example, a big brawler or martial arts guy that's able to match or exceed Knuckles' strength, someone who could actually give the heroes a good fight.

Shuifon from Sonic Unleashed is a master of kung-fu, supposedly. It's a shame we never got to see him demonstrate such awesomeness.

EDIT: Disregard that, Wentos obviously has some kind of teleportation abilities. How else could he have traveled transcontinentally within such a short time period when the world had been fractured into pieces? And how else would he be able to disappear so quickly after talk to him?

RE-EDIT: Also disregard that. Chao is obviously the superpowered one here.

Edited November 18, 2009 by HunterTSF

[Phos]

Eggman running away from Sonic is a sight gag, like Yajorobe (I really don't care if I spelled his name right) from DBZ. The point is he's scared shitless and all he can do is run. I've also heard people (random people IN PERSON) complain that they didn't like it that you couldn't catch him, believing it to be inconsistent with Sonic's character.

Actually, no I haven't.

The monster of the week doesn't have to be stronger than the overlord, it just has to appear and be important in one episode and then never do anything of importance again. The monsters in Power Rangers weren't stronger than Lord Zedd, if you want a classic example. He could throw magic around and make himself grow. He sent monsters because that's just how Sentai works.

I rather like her style; It's quirky, comical, and not terribly overpowered. Human characters with abilities like this would fit into the "one basic special ability" dynamic that most Sonic characters tend to end up going by. In Witchcart's case, it's firing magical bolts and (possibly) turning people into crystal.

She's just about the worst character in the franchise in my opinion, perhaps beaten only by the other retarded villains in Sky Patrol (such as that retarded carrot thing). Wow, her defining characteristics are that she's maybe a witch, and is forced to follow a bunch of rails because she rides a cart. There's a reason why everybody seems to forget about Witchcart: No one cares about her. She's not the poor man's Kamek, she's the flat broke man's Kamek.

I can't see how that would be the case if only a select few of ordinary humans were to gain extradinary powers.

Keep in mind that the hypothetical powered up humans would be the only ones with any screen time. I'd also be against introducing new character just for the sake of making the point that humans aren't worthless.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

RE-EDIT: Also disregard that. Chao is obviously the superpowered one here.

That creepy puppet is the Dark Gaia version of Chip. A cute little mini-sized creature that is actually a WORLD-CRUSHING DEMIGOD, coercively controlling poor Wentos just like the lesser incarnations of DG do when the sun goes down.

Mark my words.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Icecoldfrieza]

If they wanted to make humans on par with the powerful animal characters, they could have GUN or some other organization develop special suits that give them enhanced speed and firepower capabilities. Think the Galactic Federation soldiers in Metroid Prime 3.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I couldn't help but look at this topic and imagine Professor Pickle shooting flaming cucumbers.

On a more serious note, while I'm not entirely against the notion of humans using magic or other "natural" powers, perhaps they could be kept distinct from the animal characters(Yet still useful and exciting) by giving them gadgets or mechanical suits. You know, like Batman or Iron Man. Basically what Frieza said.

Come to think of it, I have wondered for a while as to whether or not there are any human super heroes in Sonic's world.

Edited November 18, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Dr. Mechano]

Come to think of it, I have wondered for a while as to whether or not there are any human super heroes in Sonic's world.

Well, Eggman effectively becomes a superhero in the Sonic X comic when he dons the guise of El Gran Gordo and takes down "Dr. Eggman"'s evil scheme. But that's not the games, so... yeah.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Well, Eggman effectively becomes a superhero in the Sonic X comic when he dons the guise of El Gran Gordo and takes down "Dr. Eggman"'s evil scheme. But that's not the games, so... yeah.

Heh, can't believe I forgot about that.XD

Actually, it does kind of make me wonder if Eggman has other human super-villains he has to compete against at times. Or perhaps he has a few friends we haven't seen who are in the mad scientist business, but who are busy dealing with their own rivals the way he interacts with Sonic.

[Dr. Mechano]

Actually, it does kind of make me wonder if Eggman has other human super-villains he has to compete against at times. Or perhaps he has a few friends we haven't seen who are in the mad scientist business, but who are busy dealing with their own rivals the way he interacts with Sonic.

Well, he does have to compete with Eggman Nega, his sometimes-ally-sometimes-rival from another dimension and also the future.

I know how you feel, Doc. I know.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Well, he does have to compete with Eggman Nega, his sometimes-ally-sometimes-rival from another dimension and also the future.

I know how you feel, Doc. I know.

Heh, blatant storyline contradictions make Eggy's head hurt. I can't say I blame him.^_~

[Tori Himemiya]

Humans with super powers in a game called Sonic the hedgehog which involves a hedgehog saving animals from an evil dicator-ish mad man. I dunno... It could work if they write in right. And not like having a meteor crashing and people run lighting fast and spew vomit(?) or bring Maria from the dead with alien powers and takes over the Black Arms. I'll be fine if they didn't do that.

Oh Sonic-man from 06 is a decent example btw...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The monster of the week doesn't have to be stronger than the overlord, it just has to appear and be important in one episode and then never do anything of importance again. The monsters in Power Rangers weren't stronger than Lord Zedd, if you want a classic example. He could throw magic around and make himself grow. He sent monsters because that's just how Sentai works.

We have plenty of characters who appear for one game and never do anything important again, and yet they're nothing close to being monsters of the week.

Unlike the Power Rangers, the Sonic series Monsters of the Week work on a different criteria, and part of that criteria requires the monster being stronger than the overlord. All the monsters within the series have powers that a way beyond that of any of the other characters combined, requiring the Chaos Emeralds in order to defeat. It's been like that ever since Chaos started the whole thing.

Keep in mind that the hypothetical powered up humans would be the only ones with any screen time. I'd also be against introducing new character just for the sake of making the point that humans aren't worthless.

Not unless you balance that screen time with all the other characters and don't focus on him just because he's a new character. The powered up human working for Eggman wouldn't be anymore important than all the other characters below Sonic and Eggman, and there's no guarantee that he would get more screen time than other characters unless Sonic Team decides to give him that focus. (and I won't deny that they just might do that)

Edited November 19, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

Ok, now you're just altering your definition so you don't have to change your position.