Ring drop systems

[Badnik Zero]

To those who mentioned Chaotix, the combi-ring was a great idea for a 2D game. It's too bad we never saw it again. I'm not sure it worked the way they intended though, since when you got hit your partner would sometimes carry you away with his momentum, and the ring would be left behind. You'd often end up with less rings than if you didn't have the combi with you. Maybe the combi-ring should have been larger. The only losing one ring on your partner was an interesting idea, and paying rings for the recall ability (throwing was free by the way, it was the most useful mechanic in the game) was cool if useless. The recall is for when your partner sucks and gets stuck because of the rubber band, but that only happens if you glitch around a certain obstacle. If Shadow ever gets some of his chaos abilities playable it'd be cool to see the more powerful of them work in a pay-per-use fashion.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Stretchy Werewolf

[Oroborus Alpha]

The old system did have its place, since it was competing with Mario, where there was the one touch and you are one more touch closer away from death gig. Nowadays, it doesn't work so well anymore, although it still worked fine. As long as it stays in the 2D games, it's good.

Shadow's system was a little too powerful. Collect well over 300 rings and your unstoppable since you only lose ten rings a hit.

Sonic 06's was a small improvement, where one bullet hit was 1 ring, which showed that harder attacks could be more damaging, but then they brought back the old system in the mix, and with Sonic 06's tech, it failed.

Unleashed 360 was good, as it was "exponential." The more rings you had, the more you would lose in a hit. Usually it was about half of your rings, but drop below 20 rings and you'd loose all of them. I don't even remember how Wii's worked.

[Chooch]

The classic system worked for just that -- the classic games. I think when you're talking about the modern 3D titles it should follow Shadow the Hedgehog/Sonic Unleashed's ring drop system. With the ranking system here (and likely here to stay) the 'one hit = ALL YOUR RINGS ARE GONE, LOL' seems pretty unfair for those out there trying to get the highest ranks you can on stages (for the sake of bragging rights, an award, etc.) since a lot of it comes down to having a shitload of rings.

There should be at least a little bit of leeway for things like that.

[Blacklightning]

I really can't stand the classic ring drops anymore, but for the way it can affect the game itself rather than how it works as a game mechanic. It can be an incredibly big limitation when thrown into a game, and I find it tends to make a game either really easy (most actual classic games, aside from various moments where ring loss wasn't actually the issue, such as death pits and crushers), or difficult for all the wrong reasons (Sonic '06, primarily because universal ring-loss and the infamous Touch of Death does NOT work well with '06's kind of combat focus). The more gradual ring loss systems, particularly Unleashed's, can be scaled per the difficulty level and the expected type of gameplay, making it much more versatile overall. Hell, just think of any non-Sonic game right off the top of your memory and I bet you could still cram Unleashed's ring loss system in there easily.

I really don't have anything against the traditional method at all, but I find that it requires the game to be designed around it, ultimately limiting options and, let's face it, starts to get stale over repetition. Whereas with a more gradual system, you can actually make a Sonic game that's difficult without spamming death pits or making unfair enemy encounters, just to name one possibility.

The incentive to not get hit comes from the advantages of collecting as many rings as possible--extra lives, score bonuses, et al. If you make it so you only lose so many rings per hit, that incentive is less powerful; after all, if you need 100 rings for an extra life and you only lose 10 per hit, it becomes extremely easy to get extra lives each time you play. When extra lives are supposed to be a rare reward, this can be a troublesome, game-breaking mechanic alteration.

I'm... not quite sure it works that way, Tweaker. Are you trying to imply that players can deliberately injure themselves at 100 rings and recollect the remaining 10 to get an easy life? If it actually works that way, well frankly that's just bad programming - I've seen similar kinds of systems in games before, and they prevent this kind of exploit simply by making it impossible to gain lives at the same increments until they're dropped straight back to zero again (eg: not gaining a life at 100 rings until they hit zero again, or not gaining one at 200 until they've dropped to 100 - naturally, under the assumption they've already hit these figures). To my knowledge, every Sonic game with some form of gradual ring loss has used this nerf in some form, though I could be wrong. 'tis not like I've taken the time to experiment.

[Blue Blood]

I think Tweaker is saying that getting up to 100 is no real reward if you don't loose enough rings. In Unleashed you only got a 1up for 100 rings, no more. But I think it should have been 300 at the lowest. 100 rings is way too low for that game.

[Diogenes]

I'm... not quite sure it works that way, Tweaker. Are you trying to imply that players can deliberately injure themselves at 100 rings and recollect the remaining 10 to get an easy life?

I'm pretty sure he's just saying that it's easier to get 100 rings if you only lose 10 per hit rather than all of them. With the classic system, if you get hit with 90 rings, you're set back to zero and have to collect a whole hundred for the 1-up, whereas with a ShtH sort of system you'd only need 20 more to reach 100.

Frankly I think it's an outdated system for lives anyway, so I don't mind it being broken down. Lives systems, that's another good topic for discussion...

[Octarine]

Shadow had a weird lives system, too, though. You had to pass a checkpoint with 100+ rings to get an extra life; it wasn't just given to you when you reached that total. Whether that made it any fairer or not, I've got no idea. It seemed pretty much on par with the other games to me, but that may have just been because of the toll taken by the game's controls sending me into pits or because I just suck.

[Blacklightning]

I'm pretty sure he's just saying that it's easier to get 100 rings if you only lose 10 per hit rather than all of them. With the classic system, if you get hit with 90 rings, you're set back to zero and have to collect a whole hundred for the 1-up, whereas with a ShtH sort of system you'd only need 20 more to reach 100.

Oh. Well in that case just make the requirement for extra lives higher. Hell, set it up at 300-400 and see how many people actually get that many in Unleashed. ShtH, maybe something more like 200, taking into account you're almost literally being shot at during every concievable opportunity. It's a bit of a by-game basis so the number would probably have to vary to be reasonable.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Oh. Well in that case just make the requirement for extra lives higher. Hell, set it up at 300-400 and see how many people actually get that many in Unleashed. ShtH, maybe something more like 200, taking into account you're almost literally being shot at during every concievable opportunity. It's a bit of a by-game basis so the number would probably have to vary to be reasonable.

In fairness to Unleashed, you did need every single one of those 100-ring extra lives that you'd "easily accumulated" in order to survive Eggmanland.

[Blue Blood]

Hardly. You should have had 99 by the time you got there. Or if you didn't a quick run through Cool Edge would fix that for you.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Blue Blood

[Phos]

Shadow the Hedgehog's system was to make up for the game's perfect storm of broken controls, touch of death, and overabundance of foes. Unleashed's system was created so you could basically ignore being hit if you weren't playing for score.

With the ranking system here (and likely here to stay)

Should it really? It's purpose is essentially to make up for the game's inability to sand up on it's own.

I really don't have anything against the traditional method at all, but I find that it requires the game to be designed around it

It really doesn't seem to.

[Blacklightning]

Should it really? It's purpose is essentially to make up for the game's inability to sand up on it's own.

This has little, if anything at all, to do with the rankings. Hell, it almost seems to me like you drew this accusation out of a hat, because I can't see any connection here at all.

It really doesn't seem to.

Clarification: enemies designed with this system in mind have a tendency to be immensely simply and predictable, and are often no better than a bunch of spikes you can spin through or jump on top of. Anything greater than that usually proves to be unecessarily frustrating, provoking mandatory hits in a game where it's easily possible to finish without being touched, and in fact actively encourages you to do so. It's not a very versatile system if only because most ranges of difficulty go against the whole point of it in the first place. It's possible to make a genuinely difficult classic Sonic game, but frankly, they just don't tend to be fun to play.

Not that I'm against easy Sonic games, mind you.

[Phos]

This has little, if anything at all, to do with the rankings. Hell, it almost seems to me like you drew this accusation out of a hat, because I can't see any connection here at all.

It's the only function that it seems to serve, the levels are essentially designed to be either traversed or traversed quickly. Simply reaching the end isn't really a challenge on it's own.

Clarification: enemies designed with this system in mind have a tendency to be immensely simply and predictable, and are often no better than a bunch of spikes you can spin through or jump on top of.

This is basically all that enemies in platforming games are, essentially just obstructions.

[Rusty Spy]

I'm... not quite sure it works that way, Tweaker. Are you trying to imply that players can deliberately injure themselves at 100 rings and recollect the remaining 10 to get an easy life? If it actually works that way, well frankly that's just bad programming - I've seen similar kinds of systems in games before, and they prevent this kind of exploit simply by making it impossible to gain lives at the same increments until they're dropped straight back to zero again (eg: not gaining a life at 100 rings until they hit zero again, or not gaining one at 200 until they've dropped to 100 - naturally, under the assumption they've already hit these figures). To my knowledge, every Sonic game with some form of gradual ring loss has used this nerf in some form, though I could be wrong. 'tis not like I've taken the time to experiment.

To clarify, in the classic games, I'm almost certain that you only get an extra life for getting 100 rings once per life (and you only got one from getting 100 and 200 from what I can recall). Meaning once you reach 100 and get your 1-Up, you can't lose all your rings and gain them all back for another 1-Up until you die (or beat the level, obviously). The only exception, I believe, is in S3&K where you could gain extra lives for getting 100 rings in a bonus stage even if you had already gain 100 in the main game.

[BaronSFel001]

Shadow the Hedgehog- Whenever you are hit, you lose twenty rings (or all of them if you have 20 or less.)

At least in the US Gamecube version, Shadow only loses 10. I quickly realized the idea behind it: Shadow was crossing signature Sonic quick-style platforming with first-person shooting, and rings served as this shooter's rechargeable health meter. Although they also have the purpose carried from Sonic Adventure 2 to give 10 points for each ring picked up, which could add up on larger levels. Reminds me of Wolfenstein 3-D, with the added benefit of being able to slam opponents with a homing attack and drive some nifty (and some not-so-nifty) vehicles.

[Blacklightning]

It's the only function that it seems to serve, the levels are essentially designed to be either traversed or traversed quickly. Simply reaching the end isn't really a challenge on it's own.

Eggmanland.

Even disregarding that, these are two completely seperate things you're trying to compare here. Ranked gameplay doesn't make the actual levels any easier by default, and we have Secret Rings to prove that.

This is basically all that enemies in platforming games are, essentially just obstructions.

Your point? They could be a hell of a lot more than that and not seem like some kind of fake difficulty if not for the fact that traditional ring protection is practically a one-dimensional health system with grace invulnerability. Come to think of it, this isn't exclusive to the platforming genre either. Makes me wonder where you've actually been all these years.

[Phos]

Eggmanland.

Even disregarding that, these are two completely seperate things you're trying to compare here. Ranked gameplay doesn't make the actual levels any easier by default, and we have Secret Rings to prove that.

I don't count bottomless pits.

Your point? They could be a hell of a lot more than that and not seem like some kind of fake difficulty if not for the fact that traditional ring protection is practically a one-dimensional health system with grace invulnerability. Come to think of it, this isn't exclusive to the platforming genre either. Makes me wonder where you've actually been all these years.

What do you mean by that?

Edited November 24, 2009 by Phos

[Blacklightning]

I don't count bottomless pits.

Good for you, but that doesn't disprove my point.

What do you mean by that?

Not all enemies in platformers are actually nothing more than mere obstacles. In Sonic's case, the ring loss mechanic is the only thing preventing it from being otherwise.

[Phos]

Good for you, but that doesn't disprove my point.

Your point doesn't really have anything to do with my position on the grading scale.

Not all enemies in platformers are actually nothing more than mere obstacles. In Sonic's case, the ring loss mechanic is the only thing preventing it from being otherwise.

The only ones I can think of are Mirror's Edge and Prince of Persia. Regardless, that didn't stop from making such battles as the Secret Plant(Sonic Pocket Adventure) boss battle, the . If your only justification for it being too hard to avoid taking hits versus a boss is "You can survive more than one", it seems like it's already a slightly broken battle, at least for a platformer. Also, Shmups.

[Marcello]

The classic system worked for just that -- the classic games. I think when you're talking about the modern 3D titles it should follow Shadow the Hedgehog/Sonic Unleashed's ring drop system. With the ranking system here (and likely here to stay) the 'one hit = ALL YOUR RINGS ARE GONE, LOL' seems pretty unfair for those out there trying to get the highest ranks you can on stages (for the sake of bragging rights, an award, etc.) since a lot of it comes down to having a shitload of rings.

There should be at least a little bit of leeway for things like that.

The Unleashed Ranking system was unfair anyway :-/. I mean you die and lose all points, but the time stays? UGH! That was especially annoying in the night time stages. I mean the Spagonia level >:-(. I die like right before the goal ring and get a shit ranking XO. And I don't feel like, playing through over 20 minutes of fighting over and over XO.

Edited November 25, 2009 by MarcelloF

[Indigo Rush]

To be fair, that "E" ranking music is humorous.

[Serperior]

The Unleashed Ranking system was unfair anyway :-/. I mean you die and lose all points, but the time stays? UGH! That was especially annoying in the night time stages. I mean the Spagonia level >:-(. I die like right before the goal ring and get a shit ranking XO. And I don't feel like, playing through over 20 minutes of fighting over and over XO.

To be fair, if the time didn't stay on some stages when you died you might be able to finish with a time of 10 seconds getting you a decent amount of points for failing at a certain point.

[Blacklightning]

Your point doesn't really have anything to do with my position on the grading scale.

You're comparing apples and oranges. I can't see how that's not relevant.

The only ones I can think of are Mirror's Edge and Prince of Persia.

Castlevania was the first thing that came to mind on my part, but I didn't really feel like making a list at the time.

Regardless, that didn't stop from making such battles as the Secret Plant(Sonic Pocket Adventure) boss battle, the. If your only justification for it being too hard to avoid taking hits versus a boss is "You can survive more than one", it seems like it's already a slightly broken battle, at least for a platformer.

Maybe "hard" was the wrong word. Tedious? Irritating? Frustrating? Something along those lines anyway. It's most evident in Sonic '06 and Sonic Heroes to a lesser extent, where attacking enemies usually meant more or less putting yourself directly in harm's way (and consequently, taking mandatory hits) for anything other than Homing Attacks (and hell, even the HA had a tendency to get you killed, but I guess that's a different issue entirely). I'm not personally familiar with that SPA example so you'll have to fill me in on that, but I really can't imagine it being any different than the pattern exploitation and trial/error we see in most other old games so far.

Anyway, I'd just rather level design wasn't the only actual challenge, and the old ring system is an obstacle to that for the most part. That's not to say it's impossible with it per se, but it definently has its limits in that regard and I don't particularly know that many Sonic fans that are interested in a platforming Danmaku.

Also, Shmups.

Please explain further.

[Phos]

I'm not personally familiar with that SPA example so you'll have to fill me in on that, but I really can't imagine it being any different than the pattern exploitation and trial/error we see in most other old games so far.

Anyway, I'd just rather level design wasn't the only actual challenge, and the old ring system is an obstacle to that for the most part. That's not to say it's impossible with it per se, but it definently has its limits in that regard and I don't particularly know that many Sonic fans that are interested in a platforming Danmaku.

If you want to allow Sonic to take more damage so it can function as a beat em up kind of thing, I really don't feel like having this argument again.

and I don't particularly know that many Sonic fans that are interested in a platforming Danmaku.

Haha, Sega did it anyway! (skip to 11:20)

Please explain further.

One hit in a game that throws all sorts of things at you, and I'm referring more to games like Radiant Silvergun, not so much to bullet heel shooters.

[Blacklightning]

http://www.youtube.c...w7CxcQ&#t=4m35s

So basically a Death Egg Act 1 boss that can aim. Nothing new, really. For the most part it's still pattern explotation.

If you want to allow Sonic to take more damage so it can function as a beat em up kind of thing, I really don't feel like having this argument again.

Uh, what? I didn't actually mention anything about a beat-em-up. I'd just rather there were more threat to the game than just spikes and death pits, variants of both not withstanding. At the same time, punishing with complete ring loss, particularly with how important the rings are outside of actual living these days (no, I'm talking about them as a currency, less so those silly rankings that people seem to be butthurt over), seems a bit harsh for a majority of the possible ways about it.

Haha, Sega did it anyway! (skip to 11:20)

Umm... I saw about three seconds of Sonic tapping his foot in Spagonia. I'm not sure what you're trying to show me here.

One hit in a game that throws all sorts of things at you, and I'm referring more to games like Radiant Silvergun, not so much to bullet heel shooters.

Not really comparable though, considering you're not constantly working against gravity to get by.