Which sonic has a bigger audience

[Djawed]

I'm dividing the fans in 2 categories.

The diehard oldschool from the beginning fans; that are now in the age of minimum 18 years old. I myself am 19 and started playing sonic at 3 years old (sonic 2 24/7 daimn).

Or the new fans that are happy with sonic's direction today. The sonic unleashed fanboys that have no problem with sonic speeding up more every new game.

I wonder because many people mention commerce to be in the newer era. Sonicteam also seems to think that is true.

Needlemouse is coming out in 2010(i hope). And i wonder how it's gonna sell.

Personally i think it will sell more than any sonic game from the last few years. I think it will attract more people than only the fanbase (that is a lot on its own). I think if it is really going to be what i expect it to be, it'll be BIG.

The game promisses to be like the classics, and i personally expect it to be more than just a game taking an example of what fans like me loved about sonic.

IF this would happen. Sonicteam would finally wake up and realize that it was true from the beginning(this is just a personal dream of mine:P)

So my guess is the older fanbase+regular people is true WIN.

So what do you guys think

Edited December 1, 2009 by Jaouad

[Blue Blood]

So unless you started playing Sonic when the first game came out you're not an old-school fan? Shit. Better throw away my MegaDrive and old Sonic games that I've collected over the past 17 years. =(

Sonic Team know that the fanbase is very divided. However they also understand that many long-time fans will buy almost any new Sonic game. Ergo, they cater mainly towards the younger crowd with EXTREEM KEWL!

Edited December 1, 2009 by Blue Blood

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Don't we already have 122 pages on this?

[Blue Blood]

No, this topic is about the different Sonic audiences, crudely divided into two groups. I say crudely because there are far more groups than that and the majority in fact fit into none but the "general Sonic fan" group.

[Djawed]

Guys you dont seem to understand the point of this topic. Its not about the divided fan base. But just speculating which sonic is bigger for sonic teams(sega's) pocket.

So unless you started playing Sonic when the first game came out you're not an old-school fan? Shit. Better throw away my MegaDrive and old Sonic games that I've collected over the past 17 years. =(

Sonic Team know that the fanbase is very divided. However they also understand that many long-time fans will buy almost any new Sonic game. Ergo, they cater mainly towards the younger crowd with EXTREEM KEWL!

I never said anything like that or in any way... did i?

I meant which one do you think will sell more in general

[Blue Blood]

The diehard oldschool from the beginning fans; that are now in the age of minimum 18 years old.

But I'm only 17!

The kids clearly are Sonic Teams bigger market. You know why? ST are enticing a new market all the time but holding onto (the majority of) their old one with the very fact that it's Sonic. So yeah, I'm just reiterating what I already said near enough. Sonic's market will vary from game to game. The majority of the time it's younger fans (Black Knight, Shadow) but not always. Unleashed tried to kill two birds with one stone by having new-but-known Sonic gameplay at daytime for 'all the over 18s' and the cool factor of the Werehog for the 'under 18s'. It didn't work on the whole... (ergo Needlemouse!)

Edited December 1, 2009 by Blue Blood

[Tornado]

You can't really gauge something like this, because the Sonic fanbase is too god-damned insane to divide cleanly no matter what the criteria is. I mean, the obvious answer is the new-school, because they are the nutjobs that made ShtH a million seller. But at the same time, by what measure is a non-Retrofag? What are the criteria exactly? I've bought some of the recent "main" Sonic games (most recent being STH '06, but still), but I'd hardly consider myself one of the target demographic for stupid shit like the werehog (or Unleashed in general, but that is something for another topic)

Edited December 1, 2009 by Tornado

[Djawed]

But I'm only 17!

The kids clearly are Sonic Teams bigger market. You know why? ST are enticing a new market all the time but holding onto (the majority of) their old one with the very fact that it's Sonic. So yeah, I'm just reiterating what I already said near enough.

oww yea true . I apoligize mate. So kids are a big market. So why is it that games like call of duty modern warfare sell so good even though all ages play that game. Yea secretaly even the minors.

It's like an excuse for them being allowed to make average games. Why is it that sonic is so hard to make for a bigger audience. Genesis games were.. righT?

Edited December 1, 2009 by Jaouad

[Diogenes]

If we're talking purely in terms of the number of warm bodies, I'd guess the new fans are bigger. If you weigh it by how "big" a fan they are, the old fans might have the advantage (though it could swing either way). Keep in mind, modern Sonic is not just some fresh new upstart. Depending on where you draw the line, modern Sonic may have lasted longer than classic Sonic. And during all that time, the new games have been chipping away at the faith of the stubborn old fans (or converting them!).

I also don't see how a classic game would automatically draw in more non-fans. Rekindle the love that fallen fans had, maybe (if they aren't going to cry about how Sonic's eyes shouldn't be green instead), but platformers aren't exactly the hot new thing these days.

And I don't agree with this notion that they have to choose one or the other. Or at least I disagree that they should have to. The stubborn old fans have become so rigid that it's almost(?) impossible to satisfy them. To them, there is no compromise, one iota of anything beyond 1997 and it's ruined forever. Now I'm certainly not saying we should accept anything Sonic Team shits out. '06 was garbage, and we should rally against that sort of shit full force (for those who are offended, feel free to mentally substitute the game of your choice). But an unflinching rejection of any sort of deviation from the classics will only ensure that no one is happy.

Why is it that sonic is so hard to make for a bigger audience. Genesis games were.. righT?

Were they? Or did we just not notice it was a kid's thing because we were kids at the time?

[Djawed]

If we're talking purely in terms of the number of warm bodies, I'd guess the new fans are bigger. If you weigh it by how "big" a fan they are, the old fans might have the advantage (though it could swing either way). Keep in mind, modern Sonic is not just some fresh new upstart. Depending on where you draw the line, modern Sonic may have lasted longer than classic Sonic. And during all that time, the new games have been chipping away at the faith of the stubborn old fans (or converting them!).

I also don't see how a classic game would automatically draw in more non-fans. Rekindle the love that fallen fans had, maybe (if they aren't going to cry about how Sonic's eyes shouldn't be green instead), but platformers aren't exactly the hot new thing these days.

And I don't agree with this notion that they have to choose one or the other. Or at least I disagree that they should have to. The stubborn old fans have become so rigid that it's almost(?) impossible to satisfy them. To them, there is no compromise, one iota of anything beyond 1997 and it's ruined forever. Now I'm certainly not saying we should accept anything Sonic Team shits out. '06 was garbage, and we should rally against that sort of shit full force (for those who are offended, feel free to mentally substitute the game of your choice). But an unflinching rejection of any sort of deviation from the classics will only ensure that no one is happy.

Were they? Or did we just not notice it was a kid's thing because we were kids at the time?

@your last comment: It was my 19 year old cousin who brought sega and sonic into our house. And he loved it too. Why do we always get labeled as retro 2dfans. I like good games, i like all the 2d mario games and the newer super mario galaxy, I like the old megaman games and hate the bad 3d megaman games. I love sa1 and 2. Loved them both but noticed that in sa2 they were starting to take a different direction.

and from there they just continued to experiment with sonic. Sonic heroes tried to be more retrom, in the end it wasnt. Shdow the hedgehog tried to be mature. sonic 06 went realistic, storybook series... the name says it all and unleashed tried to be more western.

It's like their in a crisis where they just dont know what to do.

Most games add on what was good you know. Sonic seems to scrap everything and try something new everytime. I like 3d games.. i love them. Id love a new 3d sonic game right now.

They started themselves. No fanbase asked them to take those directions. Many core fans still bought the games and many new fans came along.

But i also know that many many kids friends around me that aren't fans hate sonic and love the retro games. All around the internet it is so obvious how much sonic is hated today and that sonic is a joke. Hell i see people weir mario shirts and people seem to love it. Its cool and everyonde digs it. I have sonic shirts but i know what status he has. They think of sonic x and that is totally lame, they think of all the games today. Is this all really a coincidence?

Mario is so awesome and he hasnt changed ANYTHING! NOTHING has changed.. they just added to it.

Sa1 was exactly the path i wanted sonic to go but it didnt

I still think sonic could be more populair if he took a step back to retro style sonic1/sa1 style

Why am i bringing mario into this discussion? Just look at him.. So kiddy and so childish yet everyone loves him. The happy world with the living clouds. The kiddy worlds. But he is also cool and the games are SO friggin good. And mario doesnt make a total fool of himself. Because he doesnt talk and hasnt been a serie like sonic x. But mainly his games are everything youd expect them to be + even more

Edited December 2, 2009 by Jaouad

[Phos]

Is this in terms of games or character design? If you're talking games, I'd like to remind you of something:

Sonic was once a major system seller. Also, the number of people playing video games continues to rise, but the sales of new Sonic games have been on a slow decline for a while now.

As for character design, it's hard to get a good number on that because there was no overlap. In fact, there was a gulf. I didn't even realize they had changed him for Adventure because I hadn't seen Sonic in so long.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Phos

[Djawed]

Is this in terms of games or character design? If you're talking games, I'd like to remind you of something:

Sonic was once a major system seller. Also, the number of people playing video games continues to rise, but the sales of new Sonic games have been on a slow decline for a while now.

As for character design, it's hard to get a good number on that because there was no overlap. In fact, there was a gulf. I didn't even realize they had changed him for Adventure because I hadn't seen Sonic in so long.

The whole change of design wasnt a problem. The percentage of fans complaining on that subject is low and many like me actually saw the charm in it.

But adding on the sales, in those times sonic wasnt just bought by many. But in general sonic was loved. Friends came over just to play sonic. I could have conversations with friends about him. That's history while mario still lives.

You would think mario games at our(my) age would be totally childish and lame but i see friends grownups coming with dses to school playing new mario bros. Sonic is nowhere to be found

Edited December 1, 2009 by Jaouad

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm not sure that data on Sonic's system selling capabilities in the past can be considered relevant to the present, since Sega no longer produces their own systems.

[Teoleulbogo]

oww yea true . I apoligize mate. So kids are a big market. So why is it that games like call of duty modern warfare sell so good even though all ages play that game. Yea secretaly even the minors.

It's like an excuse for them being allowed to make average games. Why is it that sonic is so hard to make for a bigger audience. Genesis games were.. righT?

The reason it's so hard for Sonic to apeal to a larger audience is because as big a demographic kids are,the majority of people playing games are between the ages of 16-24 meaning that kids,and as a result kid games get realy low on the bar. Games like Klonoa and NiGHTs,though great and inventive games,are easily buried under the pile of Halo and Call of Duty type games that have become seen as the greatist games ever. The sad truth is that this generation of gaming is a hard place for a anthropomorphic blue hedgehog with a hip attidude and 90s diolouge to exist.

[redmenace]

Children. Even most old school fans liked the games because they were children back then, not because they could hack it from here to the moon or because of the brilliancy of level design. I suppose that will always be the biggest target, but I think that ST could appeal to them with something deeper than a racing "platformer".

[Phos]

Children. Even most old school fans liked the games because they were children back then, not because they could hack it from here to the moon or because of the brilliancy of level design. I suppose that will always be the biggest target, but I think that ST could appeal to them with something deeper than a racing "platformer".

Hey, I was pretty discerning about my games when I was a kid... And that thing I bolded sounds like a reason for us as kids to like it.

[Dreadknux]

Children is Sonic's target audience, be it this generation who are playing Sonic and the Black Knight or my generation who played Sonic 3 & Knuckles as kids. The beauty in Sonic the Hedgehog in the past was how it transcended the simple 'kids' barrier and, like Mario, became a game that all ages could play and enjoy. The main reason is because the Mega Drive games (except for maybe Spinball - 'EXTREEEEEEEEM') and some of the more recent games (Rush Adventure for example) didn't try to be anything it really wasn't.

Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 were pure examples of Sonic Team -not- going after the children's market and going after one specific age category. Teenagers. When you do that, you lock yourself into a very limited audience, and the games represented that with its pretentious, cheesy, god damn awful 'Armageddon' style balls that honestly, only tweens who had just hit puberty would have screamed 'awesome'.

Sonic Team had failed to successfully make games for children as a result as they were either 'violent' (guns, whatever) or had material that they simply weren't interested in (or were just damn boring and sported drab greys ala Sonic 06). Adults couldn't be captured by these games because the themes and content was just too damn lame to be seen playing or enjoying.

Even the Werehog was a sort-of attempt at drawing in the older-kid/young-teen in providing a pseudo God of War experience. And almost everyone hated the bugger. Besides that though, Sonic Unleashed did not profess to be anything it inherently wasn't - as a result I know of adults who play it as well as kids who enjoy it. Sure, gameplay wise I personally feel it has a long way to go, but the point is you make a game unashamedly for kids and without any pretensions and the adults will come too.

Sonic Team's only problem was pandering to teens and tweens. A demographic/phase that doesn't know what the hell it wants, whose opinions flitter back and forth every ten seconds, is adamant that nobody else understands them and ultimately, only lasts a few years. That's not really the big money maker. I mean, it is for testosterone games like Modern Warfare but not for Sonic the Hedgehog or Super Mario.

EDIT: I realise I've somewhat avoided the "Which is bigger, classic fans or modern fans" but I think the only people that really care about making those distinctions ("Eurgh, you don't like Black Knight. You're a Classic FAG!" - "What do you mean you thought Sonic 1 was boring? You're just a FAG!") should just spend some more time playing the games rather than talking about them.

If we must follow this theme, I'd like to throw in a third tier of Sonic fans -- those that enjoy classic or modern Sonic, but just want to see a -good- Sonic game regardless. This could be otherwise known as the 'mainstream', or the 'lost fans' who people mistake for Classic fanboys. This is what SEGA and Sonic Team need to capture, and I'd argue that this is a much bigger market than the "NO U" Classic fanboy or the "NO U" Modern fanboy. Mario & Sonic and Sonic Rush Adventure is proof of this.

[CreamyBagel]

As others have said it's hard to split the fanbase into two groups because there are just too many sub groups around. Oldschool fans, newschool fans even fans who don't care either way. Some people hate the SA games because they aren't 2D, and some people have likely never even touched the 2D games so it's hard to divivde.

I began playing Sonic 1 way back in the early 90s but that doesn't neccessarily make me a retro gamer because even though I started playing the oldschool games first, I personally prefer the new games, even now. So just because somebody has played all the old games doesn't mean oldschool Sonic is their preferred Sonic. Some retro fans hate any new game. Even if it was the most awesome new Sonic game ever, they'd still complain because he's not a sprite running at 100MPH.

I bet there's still complaints from the oldschoolies when Needlemouse comes out, they'll find something to pick at. Maybe the newschool gamers will hate it because Sonic isn't 3D. You can't please everyone unfotunately so I'd say that Sonic fans are generally equally divided. In this day and age nobody wants to play platformers anymore, it's all shoot 'em ups

[eXtaticus]

Why is it that no-one ever remembers the middle generation? I didn't grow up with the original Mega Drive classics or the new-fangled shite that they call "Sonic"; I grew up with Sonic Adventure and its sequel.

Who's going to cater for me?

[Djawed]

Why is it that no-one ever remembers the middle generation? I didn't grow up with the original Mega Drive classics or the new-fangled shite that they call "Sonic"; I grew up with Sonic Adventure and its sequel.

Who's going to cater for me?

I dont know about others but sa1 never got any complaints at the time. It was a 1st awesome 3d experience that i consider as one of the classics.

Its true that nobody should be labeled but I just use the labels for understanding

[Dreadknux]

Why is it that no-one ever remembers the middle generation? I didn't grow up with the original Mega Drive classics or the new-fangled shite that they call "Sonic"; I grew up with Sonic Adventure and its sequel.

Who's going to cater for me?

Sonic Adventure and its sequel were good games. Ergo, you'd likely be lumped with either the 'Classics' or the 'group who likes good games' (I know "Classic fanbois" can even get a bit irate against SA1 and SA2, undeservedly really).

[Crystal Kingfisher]

I think the old-school fans, however, I'm 15 but I love the old-school Sonic games. (my first Sonic game was Sonic 3) My favorite 2D Sonic game is Sonic CD, and my favorite 3D one is SA2. Besides, notice that most of the newer Sonic games don't sell very good except for the handheld ones.

[HunterTSF]

I honestly can't categorize myself in either category, seeing as I'm not an extremist on either side. Admittedly, I have loved just about every game in the the Sonic the Hedgehog series - ranging from the original Sonic the Hedgehog on the Mega Drive to the most-recent Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games featured on the seventh-generation Nintendo systems. Sure, I'll admit that not all of them were fantastic (This goes for both sides - there were blunders back in the 90's too, you know), but I still had a blast playing them and wholeheartedly enjoyed them.

I'm not particularly fond of the constant bickering between the classic and new school parties (Which, once again, I find to be equally bad on both sides), as I find it to be nothing short of pointless. I suggest that we all come to the general consensus that "Sonic is/was totally awesome, and I enjoyed one of his games!" - Surely we can all agree on that.

Edited December 2, 2009 by HunterTSF

[Djawed]

I honestly can't categorize myself in either category, seeing as I'm not an extremist on either side. Admittedly, I have loved just about every game in the the Sonic the Hedgehog series - ranging from the original Sonic the Hedgehog on the Mega Drive to the most-recent Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games featured on the seventh-generation Nintendo systems. Sure, I'll admit that not all of them were fantastic (This goes for both sides - there were blunders back in the 90's too, you know), but I still had a blast playing them and wholeheartedly enjoyed them.

I'm not particularly fond of the constant bickering between the classic and new school parties (Which, once again, I find to be equally bad on both sides), as I find it to be nothing short of pointless. I suggest that we all come to the general consensus that "Sonic is/was totally awesome, and I enjoyed one of his games!" - Surely we can all agree on that.

Yea thanks for your reply. Partial this topic is about which of both is better but i'm asking it more in a finance way. Its just speculating if needlemouse is going to sell better than all the games that lately came out. Do you think it will sell more than for example sonic unleashed. Do you think it will attract more people, attract a bigger audience than the last games

[batson]

People are always talking about "retro-fags" who only likes the Mega Drive games and hates everything Sonic has been in since those came out. But it seems to me like these "retro-fags" hardly even exists in the Sonic fanbase. Really, they dont.

Yes, a lot of fans (heck, probably MOST fans) consider the Mega Drive era to have been Sonic's golden age and the games from that era to be by far the best in the series (i myself am certainly one of these people). And yes, quite a few of these fans believe that Sonic simply works best in 2D and should return to it. But very few fans actually have the mindset that practically EVERYTHING that is modern Sonic sucks balls. Im telling you, even if you go to the supposedly most "retro-fag" infested fansites like Sonic Cult or The GHZ, you will find that the vast, vast, vast majority the bitter old crones who visit those sites actually do express admiration for certain newer games, such as the Adventure and Rush titles.

If you want to find people that actually do have that "everything with Sonic's name on it that's been made since 1994 sucks ass" mindset, you have to go outside tha fanbase, to gamers that dont actually care that much for the series.

Edited December 3, 2009 by batson