If you could improve SatAM

[Blazey Firekitty]

I can't see a character like Rouge being in any way similar to Sally in terms of role.

Then again, I really haven't cared for any of the female characters in the games (with Blaze being the only one I can tolerate). I love Sally for being a tomboy princess who gave up her royal life to lead a ragtag band of freedom fighters.

This actually makes me realize that one of the reasons I like Blaze is that she's doing Sally's tomboy princess gig, but with a bit of Sonic's attitude...and some explosions. She loves her some explosions. Like a feline Michael Bay.

When I think about it, my Sonic fandom when I was a kid had little to nothing to do with romance. Just very close friendships. To me, the emotional center of the Sonic universe was a strong platonic bond between Sonic, Sally, and Tails. To be honest, the three of them probably never quite had that near perfect bond between all of them that I thought existed when I was young, with writers flip flopping between Tails being the closest to hedgie-boy, or Sally being the closest. But I think it's good at least that I can remember that charming "power trio" image of the three of them as a big part of the roots of my fandom, even if it was mostly in my imagination.

Didja know that Sally was originally some guy named "Ricki" in Japan? You know that little squirrel sprite in Sonic One?

Sally is Sonic fandom's Birdo! And I love her even more for it.

[Flyboy Fox]

Yes, I remember reading somewhere that she was briefly called 'Rikki'. She was also, of course, pink to begin with. Seeing her in the AoStH Christmas Blast special always makes me laugh. She was also seemingly mute XD

I agree about the 'power trio' of Sonic, Tails and Sally. I saw them that way too, even if it was ridiculously unbalanced in reality. Nowdays, I include Knuckles (courtesy of Archie), and those four make up my quad of favorite characters in the whole Sonic franchise.

Speaking of which, that reminds me of another point - I would love to add Knuckles to an improved SatAM. I think it was planned, or at least rumored, for the next season, before the show bottomed out completely. It made me sad that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles weren't all in ANY of the old American cartoons. Knuckles was missing from AoStH and SatAM, and Tails was absent from Underground.

So yeah, I'd bring Knux along for the ride. Perhaps he could interact with Sally a bit and give Sonic more time to interact and develop relationships with the rest of the cast.

[Gabz Girl]

It would have been nice to see Knuckles and Amy in the series. The series first aired when Sonic CD and Sonic 3 were already out, so it was possible. I wonder what they would be like in the show?

Also, Tails should've been part of the main cast, tagging along with Sonic and Sally. they treated him like a baby. .__.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Yes, I remember reading somewhere that she was briefly called 'Rikki'. She was also, of course, pink to begin with. Seeing her in the AoStH Christmas Blast special always makes me laugh. She was also seemingly mute XD

Sonic: Okay Sal, one shake for yes, two shakes for no.

I agree about the 'power trio' of Sonic, Tails and Sally. I saw them that way too, even if it was ridiculously unbalanced in reality. Nowdays, I include Knuckles (courtesy of Archie), and those four make up my quad of favorite characters in the whole Sonic franchise.

Even though I don't agree with all the developments in the comic over the last few years, I'd definitely say that the thing I like most about its current direction is the attempt to have Sonic, Tails, Sal, and Knux be as equal in importance as possible. It's really quite nostalgic, and they even feature the four of them on the 200 cover with the implication of their "main good guy" status.

I remember way back when, Sally and Tails had their own mini-series. Kinda sad in a way those never became ongoing books.

Speaking of which, that reminds me of another point - I would love to add Knuckles to an improved SatAM. I think it was planned, or at least rumored, for the next season, before the show bottomed out completely. It made me sad that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles weren't all in ANY of the old American cartoons. Knuckles was missing from AoStH and SatAM, and Tails was absent from Underground.

So yeah, I'd bring Knux along for the ride. Perhaps he could interact with Sally a bit and give Sonic more time to interact and develop relationships with the rest of the cast.

Yeah, bringing Knux in would be a pretty good idea. Would both make Sally seem important while avoiding the overshadowing of the other characters.

Kinda interesting you should bring Knuckles up, since I've been rekindling my love for him lately. I remember back in the 90's, the chance to play as Knux felt like one of the most awesome things in existence. I've allowed myself to rememeber what I originally loved about him, to realize that behind the gullible streak and the temper there's just an awkward boy figuring himself out.

[Autobobby1]

Steal the funding to it and AoStH and use it to make a regular show out of the OVA.

Fourthed. The OVA was much better than every other Sonic cartoon. And besides, I always liked the Archie comics better than SatAM, anyway. Sonic had a more prominent role, every character developed, they incorporated a ton of elements from the games, and they made it a bit more lighthearted while not usually making it blatantly "for kids."

[Indigo Rush]

How about make a brand new cartoon, with only a slight adaption to the main games every now and then, just to promote. Other than that, the show is all its own.

Minus the characters. No exclusive crud like Chris or Princess Sally... save 'em for the comics I say.

Also, I think the cartoon should have its own style. Not exactly anime, but you know the style that Riders used for the opening? Something stylized and not like plain cartoon work.

If this was to be a westernized cartoon, then we'd need a style that's unlike what we see today.

[Legendary Emerald]

I love SatAm, and have watched the DVD boxset umteenth thousand times. But yeah, the show is far from perfect. Given the chance to edit the two season, I feel I could do a lot of good.

First, cut down on the Antoine bits. He can be funny sometimes, but there are far to many jokes involving him. And of the four Antoine shorts, only the first is even remotly funny. They should all be scrapped.

Stop making Dulcy say her dumbass "I'm okay, Ma." lines. That's a one-liner that hardly deserved to be uttered once, let alone once in every episode. Just get rid of that though and the character would be great.

Give Sally a jacket in the first season. This way hentai fans wouldn't be able to draw nude pictures of her and justify it by saying "Hey, she was naked in the first season!"

I would not have changed Rotor's design at all, or his voice actor. Also, that "Space" episode needs to go.

I loved how the second season had actual continuity, but why didn't the first season have anything like this?

Tails should have been older. At least 8, as opposed to 5. That way he'd be let in on the action a little more. To be honest though, I've not cared for Tails as a character since Sonic 2.

Forget Naugus as the person that Snively released at the end of the last episode, I want my Metal Sonic!

Allright, that's all I've got. Great show, but I've outgrown it somewhat. Luckily, the fanfiction is supurb and usually leagues better than the actual show. So if nothing else, I love SatAM because it spawned the greatest fanfictions I have ever read, and in this way convinced me to become a fanfiction author myself.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Give Sally a jacket in the first season. This way hentai fans wouldn't be able to draw nude pictures of her and justify it by saying "Hey, she was naked in the first season!"

They'd only be able to justify it by saying she was half naked.

Edited March 20, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Mega]

The OVA was much better than every other Sonic cartoon

That's a matter of opinion. I like SatAM better than every other continuity myself.

Tails should have been older. At least 8, as opposed to 5. That way he'd be let in on the action a little more. To be honest though, I've not cared for Tails as a character since Sonic 2

He was ten in SatAM, not five. He was four in AoStH, though.

Anyway, maybe it's because I didn't know about the games when I first saw SatAM, but I like it -because- it's different from the games, and I still think it should be treated as its own separate universe rather than compared constantly because it's different. I also agree with the idea of Sonic and Sally, as well as Tails, as a main trio. They're all close to each other, so it could work well.

Amy and Knuckles probably weren't in because the show's production probably started before the release of either game. It takes a while to produce a cartoon by hand. I think Knuckles could have fit, but unless Amy were like here STC counterpart, I can't see her working that well in SatAM.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Mega

[Blazey Firekitty]

He was ten in SatAM, not five. He was four in AoStH, though.

Wow. He's physically older in SatAM than in AoStH, but he's more independent and competent in AoStH.

That's irony if I ever saw it.

[SuperStingray]

Wow. He's physically older in SatAM than in AoStH, but he's more independent and competent in AoStH.

That's irony if I ever saw it.

I think he's pretty competent in SatAM, just much less behaviorally mature.

[Mega]

Weird, isn't it? O-o But yeah, Sally even said "But Sonic, he's ten years old" in Drood Henge.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I think he's pretty competent in SatAM, just much less behaviorally mature.

That actually seems to make sense. I guess I just need to see more of the second season.

[Miko]

I can't see a character like Rouge being in any way similar to Sally in terms of role.

But if Sally's relationship to Sonic is affecting the other supporting characters negatively, why should anyone try to duplicate the problem using Rouge or any character for that matter?

Archie did horrible things to her, including morphing her looks and personality beyond recognition during certain arcs. She's been at least partially redeemed lately, however.

I'd be lying if I said I felt Sally had a very stable characterization, even in the past. She's seemed to operate more based on plot demand then what I'd consider a solid personality. Sally kind of waves the line between incredibly perfectionated to incredibly flawed. One minute being able to be a foil for recklessness--an aspect of people that allows for flaws to manifest. The next minute she's presenting flaws herself so that other characters *cough* can help her out and/or so that the author can say "OMG SEE?! She's not a Mary-Sue!!"

I also don't see SonSal as being a requisite for Sally to remain. Why can't Sonic have a good female friend who he's flirty with without it having to be anything serious?

Everytime the comic does that, and Sonic shows his lack of serious interest by flirting with other characters he's dubbed by a good number of Sally fans as a "manwhore." But if he's only comitted to flirting with Sally it often IS perceived as serious. The irony of course is that if Sally plays the feild, it's okay and don't you Amy fans dare say a word about it, let alone call her a "slut". But it's not about Sonic having a lover in Sally. Even as a friend Sally's relationship to Sonic, the whole "Sonic is impulsive (like everyone else)" while Sally is a "foil to impulsiveness (not a Sue, I swear)" will essentially strip the group of their ability to contribute. It's the way the relationship works itself. Whether or not Sonic and Sally see how their bond operates and feel it's what they need in a partner or not, is a seperate matter.

I really do think that Sally could remain 'Sally' even with more evenly distributed screen time.

But it's not simply about screentime, and watching Sonic interact with other characters for interaction's sake. Its about giving Sonic the bonds with the other characters that the story indicates he should be having with them--most especially Tails (the would-be brother figure to Sonic). To do that, the bond between Sonic and Sally would need to be broken/removed. to follow the suggestion of keeping Sally as a regular that has a strong bond with Sonic still would be self defeating. As the dynamic between Sonic and Sally would change, and because the dynamic would have to change, the personality of the character helping to make that dynamic would have to change right along with it and lose it's uniqueness. Even if some people still like it, it's in essence not Sonic and Sally anymore.

I'm of the opinion that SatAM Sonic needs someone like Sally to keep him in check. I find it endearing, actually.

SatAM Sonic is impulsive like everyone else who has a flaw. A person can and often does have multiple people whose personalities help their lives become more functional and that's just the thing. Sonic should need ALL his friends to keep him in check where his personality will create voids and deficiencies. By making it Sally's job, they are cheapened to being valued as an appliance because their personalities lack a place in Sonic's life.

[Blazey Firekitty]

But it's not simply about screentime, and watching Sonic interact with other characters for interaction's sake. Its about giving Sonic the bonds with the other characters that the story indicates he should be having with them--most especially Tails (the would-be brother figure to Sonic). To do that, the bond between Sonic and Sally would need to be broken/removed. to follow the suggestion of keeping Sally as a regular that has a strong bond with Sonic still would be self defeating. As the dynamic between Sonic and Sally would change, and because the dynamic would have to change, the personality of the character helping to make that dynamic would have to change right along with it and lose it's uniqueness. Even if some people still like it, it's in essence not Sonic and Sally anymore.

What is inherently wrong with making Sally simply a big sister to Sonic and Tails, (Rather than Sonic's love interest)so that the latter two characters can grow closer?

I guess some people might be angry if the dynamic between Sonic and Sally changed, but as this fandom has proven, you can't please everyone. I am not some sort of diehard Sally shipper. I am fully capable of liking Sallly just as much, or even more than I do now, if she stops wanting to get into Sonic's pants.

And for the record, I like Mina, and even the Mina/Sonic pairing. I just think that both were handled very incompetently by the Archie writing staff.

"Sally fan" does not neccesarily mean the same thing as "SonSal shipper." Don't tar us all with the same brush.

[Miko]

What is inherently wrong with making Sally simply a big sister to Sonic and Tails, (Rather than Sonic's love interest)so that the latter two characters can grow closer?

you're tacking on labels without evaluating the substance behind them. Even if you were to call Sally a big sister, it doesn't change that the way her relationship operates with Sonic is: He's reckless/impulsive, she foils that. There's nothing about that which says "she must love him like a brother, or a boyfriend." Whether or not they become friends, lovers, or like siblings, this component of their relationship remains incredibly destructive to the goal of having Tails' or anyone's personalities helping to make Sonic's existence more functional. This is not simply about me not liking the idea of Sonic and Sally as a couple.

I guess some people might be angry if the dynamic between Sonic and Sally changed, but as this fandom has proven, you can't please everyone. I am not some sort of diehard Sally shipper.

But my thing is, what's the point in doing so? Removing what's identified Sonic's relationship to Sally to preserve it? The concept is self defeating in it's very nature.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Okay, firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I don't intend anything I say as a personal attack on you. It's actually kinda nice to finally meet you after reading lots of your posts on other boards for serveral month. I just thought I needed to make it clear I strongly believed in the statements I was making.

Anyways...

[you're tacking on labels without evaluating the substance behind them. Even if you were to call Sally a big sister, it doesn't change that the way her relationship operates with Sonic is: He's reckless/impulsive, she foils that. There's nothing about that which says "she must love him like a brother, or a boyfriend." Whether or not they become friends, lovers, or like siblings, this component of their relationship remains incredibly destructive to the goal of having Tails' or anyone's personalities helping to make Sonic's existence more functional. This is not simply about me not liking the idea of Sonic and Sally as a couple.

Okay, so, if I'm understanding you correctly, the problem isn't the romance, it's Sally acting as a counterbalance to the things that are wrong with Sonic's personality.

...I really don't see why Tails couldn't do that. In that recent Archie comic arc where he fought Sonic, he even blatantly spelled out that he thought Sonic was an uncaring jerk, causing a heartbroken stare from Sonic in the process.

I wouldn't say things would have to go that far, but it's not as if Sally stops being Sally if she stops telling Sonic he's a bull-headed hot shot who needs to be more careful, or that Tails suddenly turns into Sally( ) if he's the one addressing the flaw.

I guess some people might be angry if the dynamic between Sonic and Sally changed, but as this fandom has proven, you can't please everyone. I am not some sort of diehard Sally shipper.

But my thing is, what's the point in doing so? Removing what's identified Sonic's relationship to Sally to preserve it? The concept is self defeating in it's very nature.

...You misunderstand. I don't care much about preserving Sonic's relationship to Sally. I mainly just care about seeing Sally in some form, rather than seeing her dissapear all together. To me, she has her own identity outside of Sonic, one I find appealing.

[Miko]

Okay, so, if I'm understanding you correctly, the problem isn't the romance, it's Sally acting as a counterbalance to the things that are wrong with Sonic's personality.

...I really don't see why Tails couldn't do that. In that recent Archie comic arc where he fought Sonic, he even blatantly spelled out that he thought Sonic was an uncaring jerk, causing a heartbroken stare from Sonic in the process.

The thing is, they all should be counterbalancing a personality trait and probably based on circumstance. Not the impulse that triggers the flaw which would infer the capacity to balance all character flaws, but a flaw itself in. I'm not saying Tails can't regularly be a voice of reason in some circumstances, but if Sally's there doing it, there's no need for Tails to do so regularly for Sonic to value his personality highly.

don't care much about preserving Sonic's relationship to Sally. I mainly just care about seeing Sally in some form, rather than seeing her dissapear all together.

If she died you could see her in spirit on rare ocassion like Aerith Gainsborough .

Seriously though, you wouldn't care to see Sally regardless of circumstance even if that means she has no working relationship, or even friendship with Sonic and is essentially engaging in some other form of work that removes her from adventures? That was where I was hoping the series would go with Sally becoming an active ruler (they could have gone in several directions besides that like a villaness), but alas Ken and Ian just had to drag her back to top tier for reasons still unspecified. To incorporate her back in as a regular and on the field under that kind of suggestion would result in someone being cheapened. Personally I think she might find more dignity in death.

[Blazey Firekitty]

The thing is, they all should be counterbalancing a personality trait and probably based on circumstance. Not the impulse that triggers the flaw which would infer the capacity to balance all character flaws, but a flaw itself in. I'm not saying Tails can't regularly be a voice of reason in some circumstances, but if Sally's there doing it, there's no need for Tails to do so regularly for Sonic to value his personality highly.

Well, if Sonic has multiple flaws, couldn't Sally just be written so she only balances one, leaving the rest for Tails in company?

Idon't care much about preserving Sonic's relationship to Sally. I mainly just care about seeing Sally in some form, rather than seeing her dissapear all together.

If she died you could see her in spirit on rare ocassion like Aerith Gainsborough .

Seriously though, you wouldn't care to see Sally regardless of circumstance even if that means she has no working relationship, or even friendship with Sonic and is essentially engaging in some other form of work that removes her from adventures? That was where I was hoping the series would go with Sally becoming an active ruler (they could have gone in several directions besides that like a villaness), but alas Ken and Ian just had to drag her back to top tier for reasons still unspecified. To incorporate her back in as a regular and on the field under that kind of suggestion would result in someone being cheapened. Personally I think she might find more dignity in death.

Well, it'd be inconvenient, but I figure having her showing up and doing things and interacting with people, even if it's not Sonic himself, is better than not seeing her at all.

Then again, that's just assuming that she'd just dissapear without anyone caring. I'll admit I could deal without seeing her if she had a worthy death that brought her a proper sense of closure.

[Flyboy Fox]

Sally and Tails are two entirely different characters. There's no reason why one should cancel out the other. They're both perfectly able to keep Sonic in check in different ways.

Sally is like an older sister; Tails is like a younger brother. Their relationship to Sonic, therefore, manifests in different ways.

Tails looks up to and admires Sonic, yet isn't afraid to speak his mind if he thinks Sonic is being a dope. However, his way of talking to Sonic isn't the same as Sally's, at all. Sally tends to be patronising and sometimes a bit of a nag, so her dynamic with Sonic is one filled with eye-rolls, sarcastic quips and 'yeah, yeah's. Where as a similar situation with Tails would tend to be more fluffy, as he's younger and probably doesn't irritate Sonic as much, but rather amuses him. Thus ending with noogies and laughter.

Yet Sonic values both as friends, and I don't see why he can't keep both. They work well together, all of them.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Come to think of it, Sonic's dynamic with Sal is a lot like the one he has with Knux, only the fisticuffs are verbal.

[Miko]

Sally and Tails are two entirely different characters. There's no reason why one should cancel out the other. They're both perfectly able to keep Sonic in check in different ways.

I'm not going to argue whether or not they're capable of keeping Sonic in check, but Sally can "check" Sonic's impulsiveness. Name one flaw, where impulsiveness isn't present. A person bottling up their emotions and not releasing them constructively is impulsive because it lacks a consideration for the consequence. Jumping into a lion's den without assessing the risks is also reckless. The impulse to close up and not talk to anyone is also well... impulsive. Just about everything requires some degree of impulsiveness. So Sally has access to balancing virtually every flaw Sonic has. Even if Tails could keep Sonic in check in a specific way, there's no reason Sally couldn't.

Sally is like an older sister; Tails is like a younger brother. Their relationship to Sonic, therefore, manifests in different ways.

You cannot define the type of bond Sonic has with the characters, if there's no basis for the bond to be present. If Sonic has no distinct calling for Tails' personality to provide functionality to his life there's no reason for him to value it highly to see him as a brother.

Yet Sonic values both as friends, and I don't see why he can't keep both.

Read above.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Miko

[Sean]

Uh.

I say let's just make Antoine the main character and be done with it.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Firstly...

Just because Sally can hypothetically address all of Sonic's flaws, that doesn't mean she has to. Again, this can change simply by writing the character better and I don't care that much if SonSal purists get mad or not.

Secondly...

Whether or not Sonic's friends add functionality to his life does not depend solely on whether they balance out what is wrong with him.

Thirdly...

Can't someone be more of a fan of Tails' interaction with Sonic than Sonic's interaction with Sally...to be clear, a bigger fan of Tails than Sally, and still be want Sally to be around Sonic?

I can't judge your intentions, Miko, but your logic is gradually making less and less sense from my perspective.

[Miko]

Firstly...

Just because Sally can hypothetically address all of Sonic's flaws, that doesn't mean she has to.

Sally is a very responsible charachter and she'd have to be written incredibly OOC to have no motivation to address Sonic's flaws. This is really just a case of "characterization as the plot demands." You'd also be removing the SonSal identity from the series. Sonic's relationship to Sally is "he's impulsive" "she foils that." That is what's made their relationship stand aside from everyone else's.

Again, this can change simply by writing the character better and I don't care that much if SonSal purists get mad or not.

Its one thing to add dimension, it's another to knock a character's characterization at the knees. If you've got to go tearing apart their personality and their relationship to other characters, it's not worth the effort.

Whether or not Sonic's friends add functionality to his life does not depend solely on whether they balance out what is wrong with him.

This is true, but in not having a need for their personalities, he'll only have a need for their brains or brawn. Which is needing them as appliances, not as people.

Can't someone be more of a fan of Tails' interaction with Sonic than Sonic's interaction with Sally...to be clear, a bigger fan of Tails than Sally, and still be want Sally to be around Sonic?

...and how many Tails fans are perfectly okay with how he was portrayed in SatAM? It is incredibly rare to find fans whose fandom for Sonic and Tails' relationship brewed from SatAM. Not only that, but it's an entirely seperate matter to see a potential use for Tails' personality if Sally weren't there, and appreciate that. Most people who're fine with Tails' relationship to Sonic in SatAM simply assume depth because Sonic called Tails things like lil' bro, and have no problems overlooking the fact the relationship itself lacks substance to support the concept. Finally there's a difference between being a fan of SatAM as a concept, and being a fan of SataM or anything for it's execution. Many fans can appreciate and be a fan of the concept of Sonic being a big brother but be unaware of the fact they they don't like it's execution. I have a hard time beleiving most Tails fans would be incredibly happy with Sonic not having any need for Tails as a person.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Miko