If you could improve SatAM

[Indigo Rush]

We need more Tails fans in here.

I think his characterization in SatAM was... poor.

He's supposed to be Sonic's best buddy. I think, if there were to be another cartoon, that they should expand on that.

SatAM didn't do it, AoStH wasn't serious, Tails wasn't even in Sonic Underground, and Sonic X was mostly Sonic and Chris, not Sonic and Tails.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Okay, let me put it ths way...

Couldn't you satisfy both people who like Sally and people who don't like Sally if you just change her character slightly? Are Sally fans really going to be that mad if Sal is not telling Sonic that he sucks every twelve seconds? Does her character truly revolve around that one single aspect of her character? Is she just a nag and nothing else?

Whether or not Sonic's friends add functionality to his life does not depend solely on whether they balance out what is wrong with him.

This is true, but in not having a need for their personalities, he'll only have a need for their brains or brawn. Which is needing them as appliances, not as people.

If Tails is just an appliance to Sonic, why did he tell him that he was "truly sorry" in the Archie comic when Tails was trying to beat him up, and bawling his eyes out in the process? Isn't that a sign that Sonic cares?

Can't someone be more of a fan of Tails' interaction with Sonic than Sonic's interaction with Sally...to be clear, a bigger fan of Tails than Sally, and still be want Sally to be around Sonic?

...and how many Tails fans are perfectly okay with how he was portrayed in SatAM? It is incredibly rare to find fans whose fandom for Sonic and Tails' relationship brewed from SatAM. Not only that, but it's an entirely seperate matter to see a potential use for Tails' personality if Sally weren't there, and appreciate that. Most people who're fine with Tails' relationship to Sonic in SatAM simply assume depth because Sonic called Tails things like lil' bro, and have no problems overlooking the fact the relationship itself lacks substance to support the concept.

Tails and Sally, at least as I see it, are currently equals in the Archie comic, in terms of how important they are to Sonic and on the battlefield. I don't like a lot of what Ian's done, but if there's one person he didn't screw up, it's Tails.

[Miko]

Okay, let me put it ths way...

Couldn't you satisfy both people who like Sally and people who don't like Sally if you just change her character slightly?

How is that a slight change? You're destroying the SonSal identity, and changing definable aspects of Sally's character such as her responsibility.

Are Sally fans really going to be that mad if Sal is not telling Sonic that he sucks every twelve seconds?

Even if she doesn't tell him he sucks, she still as a responsible person would counter his recklessness.

Does her character truly revolve around that one single aspect of her character? Is she just a nag and nothing else?

I'm not going to argue whether or not Sally's balancing Sonic's flaws is the only aspect of her character, because the main issue is that it's a huge part of her character and more importantly as a supporting character to Sonic-- her relationship to him and how it operates.

If Tails is just an appliance to Sonic, why did he tell him that he was "truly sorry" in the Archie comic when Tails was trying to beat him up, and bawling his eyes out in the process? Isn't that a sign that Sonic cares?

Technically it's not really in Sonic's character to leave any child or person for that matter upset over something he did without a conscious, even if he didn't value them. But let's assume he wasn't like that with the everday person. This would be an example of Sonic behaving a certain way with Tails because he's supposed to have a bond with him. But there's a lapse in the logic of the story (plothole?) because there's no reason for the bond to exist.

Tails and Sally, at least as I see it, are currently equals in the Archie comic, in terms of how important they are to Sonic and on the battlefield.

Tails being useful as an appliance on the battlefeild doesn't mean Tails is useful to Sonic as a person.

I don't like a lot of what Ian's done, but if there's one person he didn't screw up, it's Tails.

The way I see it, Ian's only continued the same degenerating legacy with the characters in the book. And all for one little ...cherry.

[Dr. Mechano]

The way I see it, Ian's only continued the same degenerating legacy with the characters in the book. And all for one little ...cherry.

I think he's done a fine job, especially with Eggman. He's threatening and totally psychotic, but still charming and funny. Which to me, is what SatAM Robotnik should have been.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I think he's done a fine job, especially with Eggman. He's threatening and totally psychotic, but still charming and funny. Which to me, is what SatAM Robotnik should have been.

I'll admit, I loved the look on his face when the newest Metal Sonic immediately teleported away upon activation.

Anyways, Miko, I greatly enjoyed the Fifth Element reference. That's not sarcasm, but me applauding you for a much needed bit of comic relief.

I don't think we're going to change each others views on Sally...I think our views on what can and should be done with her, while not as opposed as I previously thought, are ultimately incompatible.

So I propose we shift the focus to Tails, for the greater amusement of the both of us.

I'll try to put this in two separate piles, feel free to tell me how well(Or not so well) I do.

My side:

Sonic realizing he's neglecting Tails and giving him a heartfelt apology shows that Tails is not just a weapon to help Sonic break things in combat.

Your side:

Sonic's apology and Tails' acceptance of this is a fluke/plothole that does not mesh well with what we know about the characters.

[Miko]

I think he's done a fine job, especially with Eggman. He's threatening and totally psychotic, but still charming and funny. Which to me, is what SatAM Robotnik should have been.

in terms of the protaganists, his choice and portrayl of them, no. It's still continuing the same problems Ken and Karl had, as well as SatAM. As for Eggman I'm not going to get into that, as I was reffering to the protaganists when I said that.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Just posting 'cause I think the new page wrap around caused Miko to miss my message.;;

[Picchi]

I'm certainly open to hearing on why you like other girl characters- or even other male characters- better than Sally, though. I'm kinda in the process of reshaping my sense of Sonic fandom, and I think you input would be potentially intruiging.

There are a lot of the other girls or just characters in general for that matter that're more tolerable than Sally in my opinion, partly because they can contribute to Sonic and the story without being so intrusive to the point that it hinders people's ability to contribute to him in a way that's distinct and personal. The fact that Sonic should be close to more than one character kind of implies that who Sally is just doesn't work.

Amy's the opposite extreme of Sally; she's very peripherial, and while she has a "dynamic" of sorts with Sonic in that she chases him, it doesn't really have much room or substance to bond with him, and it gets repetitive. Because her relationship with him has no substance in that her personality isn't needed, the fact that he runs away from her would leave a valid suspicion, at least for a lot of viewers that he doesn't like her in a romantic way. There's no substance in the storylines that would support Sonic even having a bond with Amy so no matter what Sonic Team says (and they've been shifting in management anyway, so its been "yes" and then "no" with them), the stories themselves hardly even support the notion that they're lovers. Its like slapping a lable of "friendship" or "lover" on a character and not adding substance to support that particular relationship.

In short, Amy doesn't really do anything for Sonic that another pre-existing character couldn't do, or that he more importantly couldn't do for himself. She is also the opposite extreme to Sally in that she's too much like Sonic and that in constrast, if integrated within the group, would cheapen his character.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I preffered Mina the Mongoose over Sally or Amy-- At least as a love interest. She wasn't too intrusive to the point that she didn't allow other characters to contribute, and yets she wasn't too peripherial, either.

[Blazey Firekitty]

There are a lot of the other girls or just characters in general for that matter that're more tolerable than Sally in my opinion, partly because they can contribute to Sonic and the story without being so intrusive to the point that it hinders people's ability to contribute to him in a way that's distinct and personal. The fact that Sonic should be close to more than one character kind of implies that who Sally is just doesn't work.

Amy's the opposite extreme of Sally; she's very peripherial, and while she has a "dynamic" of sorts with Sonic in that she chases him, it doesn't really have much room or substance to bond with him, and it gets repetitive. Because her relationship with him has no substance in that her personality isn't needed, the fact that he runs away from her would leave a valid suspicion, at least for a lot of viewers that he doesn't like her in a romantic way. There's no substance in the storylines that would support Sonic even having a bond with Amy so no matter what Sonic Team says (and they've been shifting in management anyway, so its been "yes" and then "no" with them), the stories themselves hardly even support the notion that they're lovers. Its like slapping a lable of "friendship" or "lover" on a character and not adding substance to support that particular relationship.

In short, Amy doesn't really do anything for Sonic that another pre-existing character couldn't do, or that he more importantly couldn't do for himself. She is also the opposite extreme to Sally in that she's too much like Sonic and that in constrast, if integrated within the group, would cheapen his character.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I preffered Mina the Mongoose over Sally or Amy-- At least as a love interest. She wasn't too intrusive to the point that she didn't allow other characters to contribute, and yets she wasn't too peripherial, either.

Okay. That makes sense. While I don't view Sally or Amy in the way that you do, I do at least see where you're coming from, and understand why you would turn to Mina in your search for more balanced and relatable character.

[Satan]

First I'd kill the faggot who ruined the second season with that goddam dragon and lack of innuendo, and then I'd call Dick back up and give him like five more seasons. And get rid of Urkel.

[Doctor MK]

I bought the SatAM DVD box set a couple of weeks ago and have been watching it through... and for a series I never really knew anything about, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Having grown up with AoSTH and Sonic Underground I never thought SatAM would be able to compare with them. But it does. It's arguably the best of the three cartoon series.

I've only got two more episodes left to watch (the final two - Spy Hogs and The Doomsday Project) and the build up to them is certainly keeping me hooked.

My only real gripe with the show is Dulcy. She seems like an utterly pointless addition to the series and her running joking of failing to land properly and then randomly muttering stuff like "don't worry mummy I cleaned my room" in that rather annoying voice... ugh. Makes me cringe a bit.

And what the hell happened to Rotor in the second season? He completely changed his look, got a new voice, and hardly ever appears... shame really. I kinda liked him in the first season.

[Blazey Firekitty]

She seems like an utterly pointless addition to the series and her running joking of failing to land properly

George, george, george of the jungle. Watch out for that tree.

[Flyboy Fox]

At least the majority of us seem to be agreed on Dulcy. I got very bored of her very quickly too. Quite the one trick pony--uh, dragon.

[Mega]

I understand that people have different views on Sally, but I'm just gonna agree to disagree. I still like her as a character and enjoy her dynamic with the SatAM version of Sonic, and I wouldn't want her out of there at all. ^^; I just find them amusing as heck, 'specially their arguments, etc. Never was fond of Amy, but she works for the -games-, IMO.

But yes, Dulcy seemed so pointless when they already had the Freedom Stormer. Woulda been cool if they just used that. In fact, I bet a good portion of season 2 could have worked without her, just using the plane to fly...though the episode "Dulcy" would have to be omitted, naturally.

[Sega DogTagz]

If I had to name one thing though, I’d take away a few of the running gags. Dulcy’s crash landings were cute the first couple times, but I think that its spamming really turned a lot of people off about her character, which is a shame.

Quoting Myself FTW

*Sulks*

I like Dulcy. I doubt everyone would be so negative on her if they just gave a real chance to be a regular character instead of a walking punch-line.

[Flyboy Fox]

I admit that the idea of a dragon was pretty cool in theory... although personally, it didn't really sit well with me for some reason. I guess maybe because the existing cast already meant suspending disbelief quite strongly, being a bunch of talking animals fighting an obscenely obese madman with a mechanical empire, complete with mystical power rings and 'zones'. However, I accepted all that pretty much as normal... but the addition of Dulcy kind of pushed my 'surreal sensors' over the edge and I could never really accept her the way I accepted everyone else.

[Sean]

Really, I though the characterization of Dulcy was much more tolerable in the Archie series than it was in the cartoon. In the comics, there wasn't any "I'm okay ma" or crash landing gags, and she's typically treated like another Freedom Fighter (and even helped Sonic a little during the End Game arc). Guess the writers knew when enough was fucking enough.

I don't know why Ben Hurst felt the need to introduce her once he got on board. One of the worst Sonic scrappies ever.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Jake

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't know why Ben Hurst felt the need to introduce her once he got on board. One of the worst Sonic scrappies ever.

Perhaps subconciously, he just wanted to burninate some peasents.

In all seriousness, I heard that she was introduced to attract more girl viewers.

I think it would have been more effective just to give Lupe more screentime instead of the whole "GIANT FIRE LIZARD OF DOOM." thing.

Edited March 22, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Sean]

Huh, really? If anything, Sally and Bunnie (and later on, Lupe) would have been the more logical choices - being headstrong, independent action girls would be reasonable ways to draw a female demographic into the show, I think.

Nothing about Dulcy really seems to target any specific audience, though, at least to me.

[Miko]

Dulcy was to reel in more females. Although in the end, at the very least they could've let Tails fly planes. Dulcy was meh..Can't put my finger on it right now but I wasn't really fond of her.

[Eileanach]

I was not a huge fan of Dulcy, I think she was meant to try and be the comic relief or attract in younger kiddies.

Miko I would have thought Bunnie and Sally brought in the females you know with them actually having a brain and all?

If I were to make a big change, Dulcy would go bye bye (Robotnik kills her off =D) and Tails gets a bit more screen time and some influence.

[Miko]

not everyone likes those kinds of girls. I don't like Sally for instance, but that doesn't mean I won't like intelligent people.

[Blazey Firekitty]

@Miko

Come on, talk to me more about Tails, it'll be fun!

Edited March 23, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Donilicious]

and Tails gets a bit more screen time and some influence.

No Tails needs less screen time, he is so annoying! Sorry not trying to make any Tails fans mad here just expressing my opinion.

[Flyboy Fox]

Less screen time than he had in SatAM? I guess that means you advocate cutting him out completely, then

Tails didn't have much of a personality in SatAM. I liked how he could tell if something was 'off' about his close friends even when others didn't realise, and his relationship with Sally WAS endearing of course (lol, 'funny kiss'). But he was relegated to baby of the group and was so childish that it was really off-putting.

Ironically, Tails was canonically older in SatAM than he is in the games. I think Tails would need to grow up a bit in order to be a decent cast member in a better SatAM. I like his current characterisation in Archie, to be honest. He's still kinda immature, but he's also more feisty and coming into his own much more, plus he's finally getting more front line action alongside Sonic.