If you could improve SatAM

[Kace]

If I had a choice I would continue the story of the SatAM much like Archie comics did (before Sonic Adventure came out). How he defeats Robotnik and ends up having to chase after Ixis Naugus, maybe even make a new villian to face? The story in the archie comic is fantastic, I just find it odd how they adapted so much of the Adventure series into it, it really seemed "thrown in" randomly.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Individuals who have neither a relationship as an appliance or a relationship to us as a person still are treated with some degree of politeness. Some don't but most do, and Sonic is among the many who will be polite even though a sense of closeness is absent. One of the problems I'm seeing when I say this to people is that I get the common response of "Sonic calls him a lil bro, Sonic uses emotional forms of talk." I'm saying the story has a lapse in its own logic. The story infers Sonic should be caring about these characters using the examples you all have mentioned, but there is no actual substance-- no actual bond to support what the story is inferring should exist by things like tender words.

It's crucial to establish Tails as the best friend to better define his personality and make it relevant to Sonic's life. Tails in just about every verse has just about no personality and is easily replaceable as a person. The concept of someone having a warm, brotherly relationship with Sonic I can understand people appreciating but not just in SatAM but virtually everywhere, its a problem. SatAM Tails I consider the worst offense because he's not even really valued as an appliance (or for his abilities if that sounds too cold for people). There's no real basis to value Tails as anything.

While I don't entirely agree with you, I think I understand what you're saying. The gist of your argument appears to be that the story should be showing us the bond instead of telling us about it.

I'll agree there have been lots of problems in all canons with Sonic and Tails feeling far too distant from each other...but I don't believe it's omni-present.

To use another example from Archie...There is a scene in a Romy Chacon story where Turbo Tails has been set free by the efforts of Sonic and Copy Tails. Copy Tails is about to die because of the real Tails' liberation. Copy Tails cries and says "I'm just a phoney" to Sonic...while replies that he's wrong, stating that he is his best friend. This after Mogul had just been done stating very cleary that this Tails was not real.

It had to have been something beyond mere politeness for Sonic to assure the fake Tails that he was every bit as valid to Sonic as the original had been.

[Miko]

The gist of your argument appears to be that the story should be showing us the bond instead of telling us about it.

The gist of my arguement is that the story should be making the bond. It does not exist. There is nothing yet to show. They are telling us about something that they have not actually created.

That is why I am calling this a lapse in the stories logic. Sonic telling Tails he's his best friend but then having no reason to hold him that closely is a lapse in logic. It's not supposed to make sense because the writing is not consistent. Sonic may be written to say he holds Tails very close to his heart but there is no actual bond present to provide substance to what the writers are trying to communicate through Sonic's dialouge.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

That is why I am calling this a lapse in the stories logic. Sonic telling Tails he's his best friend but then having no reason to hold him that closely is a lapse in logic. It's not supposed to make sense because the writing is not consistent. Sonic may be written to say he holds Tails very close to his heart but there is no actual bond present to provide substance to what the writers are trying to communicate through Sonic's dialouge.

If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that there is plothole present because we see Sonic and Tails being very close only on rare occasions.

Even though I'd like those emotional occasions to be far more common...couldn't the problem just be that Sonic and/or Tails have a problem talking about their feelings most of the time? It's not like people aren't introverted in real life, right?;;

[Miko]

If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that there is plothole present because we see Sonic and Tails being very close only on rare occasions.

No. The plothole is present because Sonic is saying he cares about Tails, but there's no reason present within the story to value Tails highly as a person.

[Blazey Firekitty]

No. The plothole is present because Sonic is saying he cares about Tails, but there's no reason present within the story to value Tails highly as a person.

B...b...but they practically grew up together!

Edit: Actually, if we're talking Adventures of Sonic or Archie, then they literally grew up together.

Edited March 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Miko]

That doesn't mean Sonic has found a value for Tails as a person. I've grown up with many people that I don't really have a bond with if not outright dislike.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

Okay, let me put this way...

...If the problem is, as you put it, not that the bond is not being shown well, but the bond did not exist in the first place, then why is Sonic having any heartfelt moments with Tails at all? Does Sonic have multiple personality disorder or something? Does "Caring Sonic" just arise out of the blue moon once in a while and disappear the rest of the time? What sane person acts that way, after all?

[DaBatGuy]

B...b...but they practically grew up together!

Edit: Actually, if we're talking Adventures of Sonic or Archie, then they literally grew up together.

Not too mention that Tails idolized Sonic as much as he could without becoming a male Amy. With SatAM Sonic's narcissistic ego do you think he could possibly ignore someone who's awestruck by his very existence?

[Miko]

Okay, let me put this way...

...If the problem is, as you put it, not that the bond is not being shown well, but the bond did not exist in the first place, then why is Sonic having any heartfelt moments with Tails at all?

Plothole. It's a lapse in logic and breakdown in the story. It's a plothole because it doesn't make sense, and because the two ideas aren't at all consistent with one another.

With SatAM Sonic's narcissistic ego do you think he could possibly ignore someone who's awestruck by his very existence?

With the exception of Sally and maybe Antoine, everyone overtly looked up to Sonic. In fact the other FFs admired him and had more involvement with his life. It's not something that would make Tails someone valued highly because everyone looks up to Sonic and Tails hardly has a place in Sonic lifestyle compared to the others.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

Not too mention that Tails idolized Sonic as much as he could without becoming a male Amy. With SatAM Sonic's narcissistic ego do you think he could possibly ignore someone who's awestruck by his very existence?

Exactly! Tails is the only character I can think of other than Amy who thinks that highly, and in the rare occasions Sonic lets him down, he takes it really hard.

I mean, I haven't see much of Sonic X, but didn't it end with

Tails bawling into Sonic's chest screaming, "I believed in you Sonic! I BELIEVED IN YOU!"?

[Miko]

I'm just going to requote this in case my edit got missed:

With the exception of Sally and maybe Antoine, everyone overtly looked up to Sonic. In fact the other FFs admired him and had more involvement with his life. It's not something that would make Tails someone valued highly because everyone looks up to Sonic and Tails hardly has a place in Sonic lifestyle compared to the others.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Indigo Rush]

I mean, I haven't see much of Sonic X, but didn't it end with

Tails bawling into Sonic's chest screaming, "I believed in you Sonic! I BELIEVED IN YOU!"

That part always makes me sad. That's the one thing Sonic X did right with the Sonic-Tails relationship.

In my opinion, one of the only things they did right in general.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm just going to requote this in case my edit got missed:

...Tails doesn't just look up to Sonic.

....He eats, sleeps, and breathes Sonic. Even if everyone else admires him...Tails doesn't just admire him, he wants to spend, with occasional exceptions, every waking moment with the man.

[Indigo Rush]

...Tails doesn't just look up to Sonic.

....He eats, sleeps, and breathes Sonic. Even if everyone else admires him...Tails doesn't just admire him, he wants to spend, with occasional exceptions, every waking moment with the man.

Sonic: "You and me Tails, this is our secret place!

Tails: "Cool!"

[Blazey Firekitty]

Sonic: "You and me Tails, this is our secret place!

Tails: "Cool!"

...Good God, that is epic.

You sir, win the internet.

[Miko]

Even if Tails has more enthusiasm then the others why does that matter?How does that really add to Sonic's life in a unique way. "Feeding his ego"-- whether Tails does it with more enthusiasm or not, it's really isn't unique to him, and it's worse in Archie because many little kids want to hang out with Sonic girls chase him because they too want Sonic's time, and then there's Amy. Finally, it just doesn't seem as though Tails really is needed to make Sonic feel secure with his ability to chase adventure and fight. Sonic's confidence in those areas has been moreso due to his speed then it has for Tails. If Tails weren't around would Sonic REALLY lack the confidence in himself to complete a mission? Sonic has become more doubtful of his ability to succeed when his speed has been taken away then when Tails has been captured.

[DaBatGuy]

With the exception of Sally and maybe Antoine, everyone overtly looked up to Sonic. In fact the other FFs admired him and had more involvement with his life. It's not something that would make Tails someone valued highly because everyone looks up to Sonic and Tails hardly has a place in Sonic lifestyle compared to the others.

You make seem like Sonic had no feelings for anyone and just fought robots for his own entertainment. As annoying as Antonie or Sally or anyone could be he genuinely cared for the FF and all the citizens of Knothole. Though he does enjoy thrashing swat bots to boost his ego, his true reason for fighting is because he wants to bring peace back to Mobius. Taking that into consideration, Tails is the youngest(ie. most vulnerable) of knothole's residents as well as the one who respects him the most. Sonic has a heart, he's not going to abandon someone who shows him unconditional affection and needs the most protection.

Edited March 24, 2009 by That Crazy Bat Guy

[Blazey Firekitty]

Even if Tails has more enthusiasm then the others why does that matter?How does that really add to Sonic's life in a unique way. "Feeding his ego"-- whether Tails does it with more enthusiasm or not, it's really isn't unique to him, and it's worse in Archie because many little kids want to hang out with Sonic girls chase him because they too want Sonic's time, and then there's Amy. Finally, it just doesn't seem as though Tails really is needed to make Sonic feel secure with his ability to chase adventure and fight. Sonic's confidence in those areas has been moreso due to his speed then it has for Tails. If Tails weren't around would Sonic REALLY lack the confidence in himself to complete a mission? Sonic has become more doubtful of his ability to succeed when his speed has been taken away then when Tails has been captured.

It's not just about Tails' enthusiasm, though. I mean, yes, just Tails being obessessed with him isn't going to make Sonic care, but if Tails is obssessed enough that he spends almost all of his time with Sonic, and makes it clear that he would give his life for Sonic, why wouldn't Sonic grow attached to the little guy? Is Sonic really that dense or cold?

Edit: I think Bat Guy's statement makes a lot of sense.

Edited March 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Miko]

You make seem like Sonic had no feels for anyone and just fought robots for his own entertainment. As annoying as Antonie or Sally or anyone could be he genuinely cared for the FF and all the citizens of Knothole.

I have said that this is a plothole that I'm pointing out. Sonic doesn't really have any reason to value highly as distinct individuals but he shows verbal and physical gestures that would indicate a bond should be there, there's a lapse in logic. I am not saying both concepts are consistent with one another, people. This is why I consider plotholes bad things that need to be fixed.

I mean, yes, just Tails being obessessed with him isn't going to make Sonic care, but if Tails is obssessed enough that he spends almost all of his time with Sonic, and makes it clear that he would give his life for Sonic, why wouldn't Sonic grow attached to the little guy? Is Sonic really that dense or cold?

"almost all his time?" In SatAM, Tails goes on and on about not having any time to spend with ANY of the characters. Tails wanting to spend almost all of his time with Sonic and wanting to give his life for Sonic is nice and all, but that's not really telling us how Tails offers anything distinct to Sonic's life and that's what it boils down to. Sonic's not supposed to have a relationship so cold with Tails. Again this is a plothole that ought to be remedied.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

I have said that this is a plothole that I'm pointing out. Sonic doesn't really have any reason to value highly as distinct individuals but he shows verbal and physical gestures that would indicate a bond should be there, there's a lapse in logic. I am not saying both concepts are consistent with one another, people. This is why I consider plotholes bad things that need to be fixed.

The thing is, you make Sonic sound uncommonly cold and mechanical, and that why we're confused. I'd like an explanation as to why you're apparently doing that, if you'd feel comfortable offering one.

[Miko]

"almost all his time?" In SatAM, Tails goes on and on about not having any time to spend with ANY of the characters. Tails wanting to spend almost all of his time with Sonic and wanting to give his life for Sonic is nice and all, but that's not really telling us how Tails offers anything distinct to Sonic's life and that's what it boils down to. Sonic's not supposed to have a relationship so cold with Tails. Again this is a plothole that ought to be remedied.

Sonic's relationship with the characters in substance IS cold (currently anyway). It's just buttered up by the story saying what's supposed to be there, so that it's less obvious. This is why I usually don't enjoy Sonic's interactions with the characters.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Sonic's relationship with the characters in substance IS cold (currently anyway). It's just buttered up by the story saying what's supposed to be there, so that it's less obvious. This is why I usually don't enjoy Sonic's interactions with the characters.

Well, yes, SatAM downplayed Tails, but to my knowledge no other canon save Sonic Underground did it to that degree.

Why can't Sonic being cold and distant from others be a result of him just being too casual, short-sighted, and egotistical to realize when he's ignoring someone? Wasn't that the whole point of Tails trying to trash him in Archie? Can't we just chalk this up to being another of Sonic's flaws/insecurities? I mean, maybe Sonic's friendships suck because he's still trying to learn what friendship is.

[Blazey Firekitty]

That part always makes me sad. That's the one thing Sonic X did right with the Sonic-Tails relationship.

In my opinion, one of the only things they did right in general.

Yeah, I think that was probably the most emotionally honest portrayal of SegaSonic Tails we've yet had.

Edit: Crap, double post, could someon merge this into my other post?;;

Edited March 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Miko]

Well, yes, SatAM downplayed Tails, but to my knowledge no other canon save Sonic Underground did it to that degree.

Why can't Sonic being cold and distant from others be a result of him just being too casual, short-sighted, and egotistical to realize when he's ignoring someone?

While I see no reason to dispute the possibility right now, there's no reason for an either or scenario. The reason for Sonic's relationship to Tails lack the substance to support a genuine bond is because of a plothole. There is no explaining the lapse in logic. It is a plothole and it needs to be fixed. Even if Sonic is too casual, short-sighted, etc... it doesn't really change the fact that he has no reason to value highly those the story designates to be his friends. Secondly, the plothole is BECAUSE Sonic's behavior often contradicts the fact that the story has not provided any substance to it. They've developed no real bond between Sonic and the other characters (perhaps with the exception at this point of one little cherry) but he acts as though there's a close friendship. THAT is the plothole.

Wasn't that the whole point of Tails trying to trash him in Archie? Can't we just chalk this up to being another of Sonic's flaws/insecurities? I mean, maybe Sonic's friendships suck because he's still trying to learn what friendship is.

It's not about learning friendship, its about Tails finding something distinct to provide to the table. Good luck Tails, with you-know-who in the mix.

Well, yes, SatAM downplayed Tails, but to my knowledge no other canon save Sonic Underground did it to that degree.

True, but while he's not downplayed as much in most other verses, the problems detailed still exist.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko