Why do some people 'round here not like Sonic Unleashed?

[Candescence]

I agree with Phos. If you want to play the comparison card, I can play it too - Wily's Castle in MM9 is hard, but fair, and actually has the decency to split itself into multiple parts. Eggmanland is a cheap, unfair slog with multiple switches between regular Sonic and the Werehog. I wouldn't be complaining if the level was actually fair.

Edited December 15, 2009 by The Sniper

[cause_of_chaos]

Hmm I didn't find Eggman Land that hard (After losing 1 continue I finished it in 20 mins which is quite long, but not unreasonable IMO). Especially if you took the wall-jumping path half-way through, the level was over quite quickly

I just hated Unleashed in general so I only finished the level and saved. I never played it again...

cause_of_chaos

Edited December 15, 2009 by cause_of_chaos

[Marcello]

Whats up with pretty much anyone saying they don't like the game getting rated negatively? I mean, thats what the topic is about..

I think 20 minutes is pretty fast for Eggmanland. I needed over 30 minutes if I remember correctly :-/. I can check later, though.. The hotdog thing is to beat it in under 90 minutes so I think they are pretty fast

Oh and a thing I don't like about the game is that I can't choose the super fight after I've beaten it. I have to play the Light Gaia shit again >_>

[Tornado]

Eggmanland is SUPPOSED to be hard, and I loved it for it. The first time since Sonic 2 (back when my button-mashing skills were child-like and unformed) that I've been gripped by the genuine, exhilarating terror of watching my mountainous pile of lives dwindle from 30+ down into single digits, with the fearsome mystery of a prospective Game Over hovering over my head.

That's because Sonic 2 was by far the worst in the original games when it came to unfair deaths and damage.

You're supposed to be tired, drained, and overall relieved when you finally clear it for the first time. And it's supposed to be a bloody challenge to do it again for the hot dog trails. But if you actually deploy some practice and skill at it, Eggmanland is as masterable as any level.

There is no more required skill at beating that level then there is at beating the first level in the game.

[Aquaslash]

I want to like the daytime stages, I really do, they look awesome. It's just after Savannah Citadel, they are bloody HARD x_x Here I am having no problems replaying night stages to death in order to level up, and yet I'm getting pissed in the daytime because I'm dying left right and center.

This is all my fault though, I'm having a blast with a side of rage. Werehog is the best non speed gameplay EVER.

[Chooch]

A lot of the posts in this topic are classic examples of people failing to realize that if you die in Sonic Unleashed it's your fault.

[Marcello]

A lot of the posts in this topic are classic examples of people failing to realize that if you die in Sonic Unleashed it's your fault.

Whys it Aquaslashes fault?!

Seriously: I know its my fault, but that doesn't make it any less annoying at times

[Tornado]

A lot of the posts in this topic are classic examples of people failing to realize that if you die in Sonic Unleashed it's your fault.

Ahh, a classic example of the tried-and-true ShtH defense: "Those problems of the game don't exist. You just suck at it."

Edited December 15, 2009 by Tornado

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Ahh, a classic example of the tried-and-true ShtH defense: "Those problems of the game don't exist. You just suck at it."

I would put this forward as truth for Shadow and Unleashed, yes.

On an unrelated note, I have five opposable thumbs.

[Blacklightning]

The Death Egg seemed to be the perfect lead up to the final boss, and that level didn't constantly have you on the brink of death, but they still made it a lot harder than previous levels.

Wait a minute. Which one? I just thought I'd ask considering, ironically enough, the Sonic 2 one does have you constantly on the brink of death.

[jonathan]

Sonic Unleashed is only slightly worst than Heroes to me. It would have been arguably the greatest game if it didn't include the requirement of playing as the werehog.

Unleashed had tremendously well done music, CG scenes, spectacular graphics which made, in addition to the Hedgehog engine, a mesmerizing experience when playing as Sonic.

Adressing the final levels cheap difficulty I must say that it dose indeed have nearly an unplayable amount of traps unforeseen until you are inevitability killed. Still however this is restricted to the final level

Sonic Unleashed is only slightly worst than Heroes to me. It would have been arguably the greatest game if it didn't include the requirement of playing as the werehog.

Unleashed had tremendously well done music, CG scenes, spectacular graphics which made, in addition to the Hedgehog engine, a mesmerizing experience when playing as Sonic.

Adressing the final levels cheap difficulty I must say that it dose indeed have nearly an unplayable amount of traps unforeseen until you are inevitability killed. Still however this is restricted to the final level

Sonic Unleashed is only slightly worst than Heroes to me. It would have been arguably the greatest game if it didn't include the requirement of playing as the werehog.

Unleashed had tremendously well done music, CG scenes, spectacular graphics which made, in addition to the Hedgehog engine, a mesmerizing experience when playing as Sonic.

Adressing the final levels cheap difficulty I must say that it dose indeed have nearly an unplayable amount of traps unforeseen until you are inevitability killed. Still however this is restricted to the final level

[Candescence]

A lot of the posts in this topic are classic examples of people failing to realize that if you die in Sonic Unleashed it's your fault.

I must seriously disagree with this statement. There is so many places where, if you die, it's the the fault of the game and the designers, it's just not funny. I know fake difficulty when I see it.

[Phos]

Wait a minute. Which one? I just thought I'd ask considering, ironically enough, the Sonic 2 one does have you constantly on the brink of death.

The one from Sonic 3. The one from Sonic 2 was quote the sticking point for a lot of people, I'm sure.

[Kintor]

I must seriously disagree with this statement. There is so many places where, if you die, it's the the fault of the game and the designers, it's just not funny. I know fake difficulty when I see it.

There is no such thing as fake difficulty. All games are designed to challenge the player but ultimately games are made to be beaten. There are countless ways to make a game harder beat, all of them are valid. Developers can’t please everyone; some gamers will undoubtedly resent what they have to do to beat a game. Yet, in the end this is only a matter of opinion. What makes a game impossible for one person may prove to be no challenging for another, judging difficulty is not always an objective practise.

I’ve already said before, I do not think that Sonic Unleashed is a difficult game to beat. The game is easy enough to beat, once you have practised and become able to play the game intuitively. Sonic Unleashed was made with children in mind, so that even someone new to gaming can beat it eventually. Every challenge has a counter; there is nothing in this game which can’t be overcome with experience. Sonic Team has done the best they can to make the learning curve agreeable, the rest is up to you.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Kintor

[Candescence]

There is no such thing as fake difficulty. All games are designed to challenge the player but ultimately games are made to be beaten. There are countless ways to make a game harder beat, all of them are valid. Developers can’t please everyone; some gamers will undoubtedly resent what they have to do to beat a game. Yet, in the end this is only a matter of opinion. What makes a game impossible for one person may prove to be no challenging for another, judging difficulty is not always an objective practise.

what

I'm sorry, no offense, but this statement is one big fat wallbanger. You are wrong, end of story. The notion that there is no such thing as Fake Difficulty is completely and utterly false. Hell, I suspect the list is incomplete. Unleashed's main crime is Trial And Error Gameplay, but that's merely one of its offenses.

I’ve already said before, I do not think that Sonic Unleashed is a difficult game to beat. The game is easy enough to beat, once you have practised and become able to play the game intuitively. Sonic Unleashed was made with children in mind, so that even someone new to gaming can beat it eventually. Every challenge has a counter; there is nothing in this game which can’t be overcome with experience. Sonic Team has done the best they can to make the learning curve agreeable, the rest is up to you.

And I once again must argue that this notion is flawed. Of course you need to practice in order to beat a game. Doesn't mean the challenge isn't fair. Unleashed's difficulty curve breaks near the end, and the designers start getting especially lazy. "Practice makes perfect" is not an excuse for bad game design. I have played hard games, and Unleashed starts hitting difficulty comparable to the original Castlevania (a game that is practically famous for its Nintendo Hard difficulty) at least halfway through, for example. If you say Unleashed was made so kids can play it, well, they failed miserably.

Edited December 16, 2009 by The Sniper

[Kintor]

No offence, but you can’t really use TV Tropes as a source – its worse then Wikipedia. I consider the website to be a repository of pop-culture trivia, nothing more. They have no way to objectively sift through all the information gathered there, favoring quantity over quality. TV Tropes may be fun but it is not worth mention here. If you have something worth saying, say it yourself. Sources are supposed to support your argument and not become your argument in place of independent thought.

Anyway, I just don’t see how you are finding Sonic Unleashes to be so hard. Of course Eggmanland is hard, it’s the last level; in the tradition of old-school platformers… the game is now trying to break you. Even so, this level is nothing you haven’t seen before: The platforming is the same; the traps are the same; the enemies are the same. You just have to play the game like before, only with a little more skill. I still maintain that playing a few of the earlier levels is the best way to get better at the game. Eggmanland can easily be overcome, with a little forethought a few extra lives.

[Candescence]

No offence, but you can’t really use TV Tropes as a source – its worse then Wikipedia. I consider the website to be a repository of pop-culture trivia, nothing more. They have no way to objectively sift through all the information gathered there, favoring quantity over quality. TV Tropes may be fun but it is not worth mention here. If you have something worth saying, say it yourself. Sources are supposed to support your argument and not become your argument in place of independent thought.

A source is a source. TvTropes is nothing like Wikipedia - heck, it isn't meant to be. But it isn't simply a "repository of pop-culture trivia", it is a collection of tricks of the trade, devices and conventions in fiction - good and bad, and yes, that includes gameplay. I simply used TvTropes as a source in a way as proof that there is such a thing as fake difficulty - that page documents a multitude of types of fake difficulty, and each one has countless examples as proof.

Anyway, I just don’t see how you are finding Sonic Unleashes to be so hard. Of course Eggmanland is hard, it’s the last level; in the tradition of old-school platformers… the game is now trying to break you. Even so, this level is nothing you haven’t seen before: The platforming is the same; the traps are the same; the enemies are the same. You just have to play the game like before, only with a little more skill. I still maintain that playing a few of the earlier levels is the best way to get better at the game. Eggmanland can easily be overcome, with a little forethought a few extra lives.

Eggmanland? Try Adabt. Or Empire City. Or Shamar. The game has been trying to break you half-way through, Eggmanland just turns it up to eleven. Nothing I haven't seen before? Hardly. It invents new and devious ways to screw you over. Once again, I make the Castlevania comparison - the last level of that game, now THAT doesn't throw anything new at you besides Dracula himself, and even then, it is still very hard indeed. But in both cases, going back to practice should logically be pointless (and in Castlevania, impossible), and no player in his right mind practices a previous stage to master the next one anyway - they charge at the level they're trying to beat, and try, try and try again.

[Kintor]

TV Tropes relies on anecdotal evidence, the worst kind of evidence. That site is nothing more then a collection of stories, people’s experiences while plating games or watching TV. These discussion of random moments in pop-culture are irrelevant, I want see your opinion – not some else’s. If you disagree with what I’ve said then explain how I am wrong, don’t just link to some website. I maintain that there is no such thing as fake difficulty, I stated in my earlier post; until you can come up with a reason that suggests otherwise, this is the way it will be.

Honestly, Sonic Unleashed isn’t that hard. A seasoned gamer like yourself shouldn’t even be here, complaining on a message board. If you have the skill to beat Eggmanland then replaying earlier levels are not necessary. I merely suggested this strategy as a way to solve your problem, what I’ve told you will work, if you just bothered to listen to my advice. Instead of blaming Sonic Team for all your woes, do something about it. Just play the game; you’ll be replaying the earlier levels sooner or later anyway, provided you’re interested in the extra content. When you finally come back to Eggmanland, the game will be a breeze; you won’t have any need to make this sort of post anymore.

[Tornado]

TV Tropes relies on anecdotal evidence, the worst kind of evidence.

It doesn't matter. That anecdotal evidence is inarguable. If a 6-year-old was playing Mario Kart 64 and the AI cheated to win a race, the AI still cheated to win a race. And presented with the same circumstances, the AI would have cheated to win a race no matter who was playing. A game that has fake difficulty has fake difficulty. It doesn't matter how skilled the player is.

These discussion of random moments in pop-culture are irrelevant, I want see your opinion – not some else’s.

Except it isn't opinion.

If you disagree with what I’ve said then explain how I am wrong, don’t just link to some website. I maintain that there is no such thing as fake difficulty, I stated in my earlier post; until you can come up with a reason that suggests otherwise, this is the way it will be.

We went around in circles on this before. You stuck your fingers in your ears and said "practice because you must suck at this game to have any complaints about the difficulty." The Sniper and I explained why you were objectively wrong (fake difficulty isn't subjective, and it does exist. Fake difficulty is essentially difficulty that occurs for a reason independent of the player's skill, which makes it inherently unfair. You are kidding yourself if you think we need to cite specific examples just to swoon you when the link The Sniper posted contains specific examples that apply universally).

It isn't hard to win at blackjack, but even if you become wise to the tricks of playing it doesn't mean you are going to start winning any more than before because the game is far more luck-based than skill-based. The later sections of Sonic Unleashed are pretty much the same way, and the only way of becoming good at the game is essentially the videogame equivalent of counting cards: level memorization. And card counting isn't a measure of skill.

And quite frankly:

Honestly, Sonic Unleashed isn’t that hard. A seasoned gamer like yourself shouldn’t even be here, complaining on a message board. If you have the skill to beat Eggmanland then replaying earlier levels are not necessary. I merely suggested this strategy as a way to solve your problem, what I’ve told you will work, if you just bothered to listen to my advice. Instead of blaming Sonic Team for all your woes, do something about it. Just play the game; you’ll be replaying the earlier levels sooner or later anyway, provided you’re interested in the extra content. When you finally come back to Eggmanland, the game will be a breeze; you won’t have any need to make this sort of post anymore.

That highlighted stuff is bullshit. Absolute garbage, and I'm tempted to downrate you for even saying something so absurd and factually untrue and then acting like it's The Sniper's fault that the game has problems, particularly when you refuse to even acknowledge the concept that a game can be difficult in ways beyond the player's control. The fact of the matter is (and it is fact) that the concept exists, and Unleashed is plagued with a specific form of it.

How much fake difficulty affects the quality of a game is completely open to interpretation (Mario Kart is still fun to me even though the AI cheats like crazy), as is the degree to which the fake difficulty affects the overall challenge (Sonic 2 8-Bit is still piss easy to me even though some levels are clearly designed to be as unfair as possible), but whether it actually exists or not in a game is not.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Tornado

[Kintor]

Relax Tornado; of course we’ve had this sort of conversation before. Talking about a game’s difficulty is a very common topic; it’s a design element which deeply affects every game. I’m sure we’ll be talking about Sonic Unleashed's difficulty again, perhaps in a slightly guise, soon enough. Anyway, I stand but what I’ve said, Sonic Unleashed is not a hard game; certainly not the test of will you try and paint it to be. Your worries here have nothing to do with Sonic Team; a little bit of practice will make all your anxieties about this game go away, if only you bothered to try my advice. This really shouldn’t be something that gets you so angry, Sonic Unleashed is a game made to entertain – remember that.

As before I maintain that ‘fake difficulty’ is a figment of people’s imagination, nothing more then a cynical buzzword, it’s not a justified criticism of any game. Even the name itself is a joke; the very idea that a game’s difficulty can be falsified is absurd. If a challenge can be made then by definition it is real, your grievances with any particular game are nothing more then opinion. Games are highly subjective, everyone beats a game at their own pace; the popular idea of how long it takes to finish a game is nothing more then a suggestion, ignore it. Games you find hard may be considered easy to most. Difficultly is a design feature intended to challenge you; if you’re struggling to beat a game and no glitches are to blame, then it seems to me that the developers are doing their job very well.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Kintor

[Candescence]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with what Tornado said. I don't really have anything to add on those ones, but now that Kintor's replied...

*Sigh*

Amazing. I am at a loss for words on how much your arguments just fail.

Anyway, I stand but what I’ve said, Sonic Unleashed is not a hard game; certainly not the test of will you try and paint it to be. Your worries here have nothing to do with Sonic Team; a little bit of practice will make all your anxieties about this game go away, if only you bothered to try my advice. This really shouldn’t be something that gets you so angry, Sonic Unleashed is a game made to entertain – remember that.

No shit, Sherlock! Sadly, intentions mean nothing if they fail to do so, and Unleashed, IMO, fails to entertain.

As before I maintain that ‘fake difficulty’ is a figment of people’s imagination, nothing more then a cynical buzzword, it’s not a justified criticism of any game. Even the name itself is a joke; the very idea that a game’s difficulty can be falsified is absurd.

It's a name that best suits the trope. It's really not good to get hung up over a name. TvTropes describes fake difficulty thus: "developers threw in something which makes the game harder, but which has nothing to do with the player's or AI's skills." It's an actual 'type' of difficulty, fact.

If a challenge can be made then by definition it is real, your grievances with any particular game are nothing more then opinion. Games are highly subjective, everyone beats a game at their own pace; the popular idea of how long it takes to finish a game is nothing more then a suggestion, ignore it. Games you find hard may be considered easy to most.

Of course, games that are famous for their hard difficulty get that reputation for a damn good reason, regardless of opinion.

But, once again, I must make it painfully clear - a hard game can be very fun indeed. But when the sort of difficulty present kills the fun and is just plain frustrating, like Unleashed, there's a problem.

Difficultly is a design feature intended to challenge you; if you’re struggling to beat a game and no glitches are to blame, then it seems to me that the developers are doing their job very well.

I... I'm, sorry, WHAT?!

Excuse me while I bang my head against a wall due to the absolutely absurdity of that statement.

Okay, done. Kintor, you fail to grasp the idea that difficulty can be caused by bad game design. My entire ARGUMENT revolves around the point that Unleashed's diffculty is caused by bad game design. Glitches are not the problem here. Bad game design is.

[Kintor]

Sonic Unleashed is a well designed game, I consider it to easily be the equal of Sonic Adventure and close rival to the old Megadrive games. First and foremost, Sonic Team created the Hedgehog Engine, one of the most advanced engines in the industry. This has allowed Sonic Team the most beautiful levels ever seen in a Sonic game, besides being able to properly handle Sonic’s speed in a 3D environment. Even the little details help make this game great. The CGI intro, while a superficial, is nevertheless key to setting the tone of the game; not to mention that the CGI is of very high quality, I think that Sega could give Pixar a run for their money. These are just as few of the reasons which lead me to believe that Sonic Unleashed is a well designed.

Of course, it is the gameplay which defines any game. Here, as we have discussed so many times before, Sonic Unleashed also delivers. The daytime levels are simply amazing, combining both 2D and 3D gameplay, quite an accomplishment by any standard. Oh and yes, even the Werehog has merit, being a fun and lighthearted brawler. If nothing else this game is virtually glitch free, Sonic Team even fixed the camera issues that have plagued this series since Sonic Adventure. The game poses many challenges to players but can ultimately be beaten; every trap and obstacle can be countered – with a little practice. The Sniper, If you won’t listen to my advice then at least get a strategy guide, it will show just how much fun Sonic Unleashed can be.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Kintor

[Carbo]

While I constantly am a person visiting TVTropes to waste time reading fun stuff, I will make it no secret that more than half of the stuff is in fact more than personal opinion when it comes to sugarcoating material and especially things like Fake Difficulty since anyone can go onto that page and say that "Sonic Unleashed has fake difficulty" and no one will give a damn to delete that really.

Personally I don't see any fake difficulty at all in Unleashed. The only thing I've been lambasting is the Werehog moments of Eggmanland, such as balancing the pipes but that's pretty much it. QTE's are piss-easy to handle in the game. Maybe not so much for the Werehog finishing moves but try to cheaply squish your way through a larger enemy with half of his health left and you sure as well better deserve that. I don't see why QTE's are so hated anyway, it's a cool minimal moment that can give you a bonus boost to somewhere else, and those that kill you aren't that hard. They're fair enough for the average joe to handle it and if you can't well then either you just stress too much at the sight of one or you just aren't good at it. Yes kids, there's nothing wrong with admitting to not be good at something. Trial and Error my ass, every move I made towards every goal of a stage I never made it due to the fact that I fucked up. I cant beat Marvel VS Capcom 2 on the easiest mode forexample but I'm not afraid to admit that I suck at the game since Ive seen people blaze through it with ease.

I find Sonic Unleashed fantastic fun and the daytime levels are some of the best Sonic stages I've ever played which made me forgive the Werehog levels, and at most they are pretty tolerable. I don't see fake difficulty in any of it, its speedy and enjoyable. Who cares if the locations are based on real worlds? Is it that important that your precious blue quillball needs to be set on another completely different planet with bumholes that grow flowers for the game to be enjoyable and have a beautiful aesthetic design? It felt practically like a Pixar movie to me and it doesn't matter what country it ripped off, it still looked good, and original =/= awesome. Indeed as someone said here before, if you would want to see New York then look at a picture but you still wouldn't have loops, enemies and foremost a controllable blue mach-1 hedgehog speeding around the colorful rooftops. If anything, the "unoriginal" designs makes me think more about how awesome it would be if Sonic would actually be running around in our world.

Fun fact: Go into the old school games without knowing the levels in and out and they'd actually be alot harder to pass since you can't see what the fuck is ahead of you while blazing at sonic speed, so I dont see how that complaint has any value in Unleashed for those who love the old school games if there's "trial and error" in Unleashed. To this day I still get bumraped by enemies, spikes and what the fuck not that comes in my way while running through the levels in the old games.

Edited December 18, 2009 by The Psychosomantic

[Sega DogTagz]

Right on there, Pschoso. Couldn't agree more.

QTE's are piss-easy to handle in the game. Maybe not so much for the Werehog finishing moves but try to cheaply squish your way through a larger enemy with half of his health left and you sure as well better deserve that. I don't see why QTE's are so hated anyway, it's a cool minimal moment that can give you a bonus boost to somewhere else, and those that kill you aren't that hard. They're fair enough for the average joe to handle it and if you can't well then either you just stress too much at the sight of one or you just aren't good at it. Yes kids, there's nothing wrong with admitting to not be good at something. Trial and Error my ass, every move I made towards every goal of a stage I never made it due to the fact that I fucked up. I cant beat Marvel VS Capcom 2 on the easiest mode forexample but I'm not afraid to admit that I suck at the game since Ive seen people blaze through it with ease.

That's what gets me. Anyone able to memorize where triangle, square and circle are on their pads without looking down has plenty of time to easily pass any QTE the game throws at you short of the x99 death sentence.

The thing that really irks me is that people somehow find a way to complain about this in a game that demands much less reaction time out of the quick-step, wall jump and oftentimes drift.

I liked the QTE's. They actually give me a breather from the action and can reward you with a cool little cinematic touch to go with it. Not to mention, it represents an offering of diversity that does not distract from the core of the game (something often attributed to other diversification/s such as the Werehog).

Edited December 18, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[Phos]

You've played Unleashed for a while, so you don't see it anymore. You have the levels memerized to the button press.

Looking like a Pixar movie is problem because Pixar movies don't look like Sonic.

Fun fact: Go into the old school games without knowing the levels in and out and they'd actually be alot harder to pass since you can't see what the fuck is ahead of you while blazing at sonic speed,

Look at the side of the screen you're going towards, not the center.

Shouldn't you reach higher areas by going there instead of suceeding at a random button promt? Seems that way to me.