Why do some people 'round here not like Sonic Unleashed?

[JezMM]

Extreme speed used to be rewarded to the player for taking the right path or dialing in the right techniques or nailing the right platforms. Now they just throw it at you like it's nothing, proving too much of a good thing can turn out bad. What gives you more satisfaction: those fast downhill slopes and runways in Hydro City where you run on water or constantly careening your way through an overly convoluted city and running into shit half the time if you don't memorize the level structure?

The latter, because I don't run into shit half the time coz I'm awesome. 8D RHETORICAL QUESTION FAIL.

Sonic Unleashed is my second favourite Sonic game after my first ever one, Sonic 2 8-bit, and the only reason I can give is because I have patience for it or something.

Yeah I get the occasional death that's the fault of the controls or due to a bug, but I've played the game so damn much I understand perfectly how the flow and physics work, so I guess I now play compensating for any bugs or control oddities without even thinking about it now. I've played through the story mode like 8 times and every level via level select a good 15 times or so now, not to mention numerous replays of stages on my initial 100% run.

Sure, pinball physics and stage specific gimmicks and no werehog (though I liked the werehog just fine anyway) might have made the game more fun, but I don't really care. I had crazy amounts of fun with it anyway.

Except the end of Arid Sands Night Act 3 which can die in a fire.

[Remy]

There was a time and place for memorization based gameplay, and it was the fucking early 90s/80s man.

Gaming should have moved on form the period where we punish the player with an unforseen obstacle that they have no way of dealing with. It's fucking bullshit that Unleashed plays the way it does and the game is at times insulting in it's stage design, and certain levels are a chore.

Memorizing Unleahsed makes me no more skilled, it just allows to to keep repeating a pattern, hell like playing Rock Band rather then any other traditional platformer. Fuck that shit.

I'd imagine they would come up with some kind of warning system that would allow you to dodge enemies that you otherwise wouldn't be able to see coming. Not like Sonic Team, who just let you run right into the enemy and then call it "challenge."

They should've done something like this-

so you had time to slow the fuck down. Like the "EASY LEFT" warnings in SEGA Rally or some shit.

[Candescence]

Allow me to re-enter the argument.

No offense, but you just can’t make claims like that – not anymore. This whole discussion has been to contest that very idea that any mechanic used in Sonic Unleashed is ‘cheap’. As a game Sonic Unleashed is easy enough to master, easier then many other Sonic games and certainly easy enough for a child to master.

"Mastery" has nothing to do with this argument. It is about bad game design. We can make claims like that, because, believe it or not, we believe that to be the case. Bad game design, in MY Sonic Unleashed? It's more likely than you think.

Every trick this game throws at you has an obvious counter; in time experience will allow you to overcome every obstacle.

Yeah, the problem with that? These obstacles give the player little to no time to avoid them before they kill you the first time. That's why you have to memorise the levels to actually avoid dying.

Also, leave QTE alone, there is nothing wrong with this feature, it is merely one way of many for deciding which route to take. Most of the time failure isn’t even fatal in this game, for that eventuality we have 1ups anyway. This line of thought really shouldn’t have been the big deal it has become.

No, I won't leave the QTEs alone. Even when they don't kill you, it's a poor substitution for proper interactivity. And when they do, they become just plain unfair. You will need extremely fast reflexes or a lot of luck to not get killed by a QTE at least three times in Eggmanland.

As for the bolded part, funny, that. The designers level easily accessible 1-ups right before places where people die a lot. It's the designers being too damn lazy to fix their own crappy level design. It's a bloody crutch. No good level designer pulls that kind of lazy-ass shit.

Edit: Also, Prof, I accidentally down-rated that one post of yours when I was trying to up-rate it instead. Whoops, sorry.

Edited December 22, 2009 by The Sniper

[Kintor]

No, I won't leave the QTEs alone. Even when they don't kill you, it's a poor substitution for proper interactivity. And when they do, they become just plain unfair. You will need extremely fast reflexes or a lot of luck to not get killed by a QTE at least three times in Eggmanland.

As for the bolded part, funny, that. The designers level easily accessible 1-ups right before places where people die a lot. It's the designers being too damn lazy to fix their own crappy level design. It's a bloody crutch. No good level designer pulls that kind of lazy-ass shit.

Edit: Also, Prof, I accidentally down-rated that one post of yours when I was trying to up-rate it instead. Whoops, sorry.

Sniper, your points have been thoroughly debunked. You continue to make false claims about Sonic Unleashed. It is not enough to claim that Sonic Unleashed has bad level design; you need a reason to say this. So far, everything you’ve come up with hasn’t held water. Time and time again I’ve explained to how your stance on Sonic Unleashed is nothing more then subjective opinion and very unfair to all those that worked on the game. Persisting in this thread now will not suddenly make what you say true, this should never have been more then a minor issue.

Sonic Unleashed is a very well designed game, with great effort devoted to its production values. You need only to look at each level to see exactly what I mean by this. The Hedgehog Engine combined with a well developed art style has produced some of the most beautiful level ever seen in a Sonic game. This is in complimented by every little cutscene and menu scattered throughout the game, no part of this game is left unpolished. This is to say nothing of each tribute to the fans, from Sonic’s renewed love of Chilidogs to every reference made to a past Sega console. Sonic Unleashed is a great game and certainly deserving of more respect then you see fit to it.

As always, the strength of any game is its gameplay. In this respect, Sonic Unleashed has strong foundations; there is no area in which it lets the players down. The controls are easy to learn and never fight the player. Each innovation serves to strengthen core Sonic gameplay, as we have seen with the boost and quickstep. The QTE have been handled well, occasionally moving the player around a level, they are not a bad concept and certainly used well in this game. Moreover, Sonic Team has removed many outstanding glitches, further improving the quality of Sonic’s gameplay. Sniper, do not blame Sonic Team for you own failings. Any trouble you are having with the game is your own fault. The developers have done the best they can to help; the rest is up to you. However, that does not give you the right to mock the game any way you see fit. Understand that what you think of Sonic Unleashed is nothing more then an opinion, not objective fact.

[Remy]

So, you're suggesting Sonic Team have crafted a perfect game, and any problems people playing it have with it are the fault of the player, not the game or it's designers, and should be treaded as baseless opinion and emotional ramblings.

That's ridiculous.

[Kintor]

So, you're suggesting Sonic Team have crafted a perfect game, and any problems people playing it have with it are the fault of the player, not the game or it's designers, and should be treaded as baseless opinion and emotional ramblings.

That's ridiculous.

Well, I thought that I had made myself fairly clear. I do not suggest that Sonic Unleashed is a perfect game, perfection in unachievable. Merely, I am suggesting that Sonic Unleashed is simply a very good game; free of the faults TheSniper has attributed to it. Throughout, this conversation has discussed his complaints about the nature of the game, in the end it is clear that all of his problems could be solved if he just put a little bit of practice into the game. Sonic Unleashed is not a hard game, playing the game properly is the best way to see all the positive qualities it has to offer.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Kintor

[JezMM]

Oh, I'd just like to clarify that my skill has little to do with memorising the levels. I never felt cheated once during my first playthrough. I saw everything coming that ever hurt/killed me and when I failed to avoid it I always thought "damn, was too slow to avoid that". Never thought "How was I meant to know that was coming!?"

I'm completely cool with Sonic being a high-speed reaction test platformer, but that's just me.

[Phos]

Oh, I'd just like to clarify that my skill has little to do with memorising the levels. I never felt cheated once during my first playthrough. I saw everything coming that ever hurt/killed me and when I failed to avoid it I always thought "damn, was too slow to avoid that". Never thought "How was I meant to know that was coming!?"

I felt the same way. Then I realized I was in denial.

I'd like to mention that Kintor is going to keep spouting the same stuff no matter what, anyone who remembers his denial that Sonic Unleashed locks the controls will know what I mean (It was on the old board).

And Sonic as a reaction test game is using one tenth of one percent of his potential.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Phos

[JezMM]

Locks the controls? You mean like, during loops and stuff? I mean, I love Unleashed but I'll certainly agree I'd love control to be regained during the really cool stuff.

[Tornado]

No offense, but you just can’t make claims like that – not anymore.

Au contraire: I can makes claims like that. And who are you to say that I can't make factual statements when the entire basis of your argument thus far in this thread has been "lol you suck the game is great."

Every trick this game throws at you has an obvious counter; in time experience will allow you to overcome every obstacle.

You keep saying this. How about you prove it. Tell me the counter for the offscreen enemy I run into that I couldn't have seen coming and wasn't given any warning to avoid. Tell me the trick for avoiding the idiosyncratic path choices that can lead you straight to death pits with absolutely nothing in the way of any signal explaining such. I'd really like to know, because if I could find out I might be able to find Sonic Advance 3 somewhat playable.

Most of the time failure isn’t even fatal in this game, for that eventuality we have 1ups anyway. This line of thought really shouldn’t have been the big deal it has become.

The problem being that failure of any kind, be it fatal or not, is really fucking annoying when the player has no control over it. Running straight into an enemy in Sonic Advance 2 is not really any less annoying than jumping right into a death pit. That you don't seem to grasp that isn't a problem of ours.

As a game Sonic Unleashed is easy enough to master, easier then many other Sonic games and certainly easy enough for a child to master.

This passive-aggressive "you suck so fucking much a child could do better" bullshit is getting very old, and I'm going to start reporting you if you don't cut it out.

Also, leave QTE alone, there is nothing wrong with this feature

It is an incredibly lazy way to design a game, for one.

Time and time again I’ve explained to how your stance on Sonic Unleashed is nothing more then subjective opinion and very unfair to all those that worked on the game.

Understand that what you think of Sonic Unleashed is nothing more then an opinion, not objective fact.

Except it isn't.

Sonic Unleashed is a very well designed game, with great effort devoted to its production values. You need only to look at each level to see exactly what I mean by this. The Hedgehog Engine combined with a well developed art style has produced some of the most beautiful level ever seen in a Sonic game. This is in complimented by every little cutscene and menu scattered throughout the game, no part of this game is left unpolished. This is to say nothing of each tribute to the fans, from Sonic’s renewed love of Chilidogs to every reference made to a past Sega console. Sonic Unleashed is a great game and certainly deserving of more respect then you see fit to it.

Once again, graphics are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The QTE have been handled well, occasionally moving the player around a level, they are not a bad concept and certainly used well in this game.

Whether they are used well is open to interpretation (I personally think they are fine), but they are absolutely a bad concept. There is a reason FMV games died out, after all; and there is a reason that every game since Shenmue that includes QTEs gets torn apart over them.

Sniper, do not blame Sonic Team for you own failings. Any trouble you are having with the game is your own fault.

You know, I'm really glad you aren't spouting this shit at me and that the farthest you are going is baseless insinuations; and I am quite proud of The Sniper's ability to not completely rip into you for saying such tripe. I can honestly say I would not be reacting the same way if you were talking down to me that way.

Merely, I am suggesting that Sonic Unleashed is simply a very good game; free of the faults TheSniper has attributed to it.

You are suggesting a factual inaccuracy, so it really doesn't matter what you say. Those faults we've been suggesting are not subjective opinions. They do not depend on the player's point of view. They simply are. The only subjective thing about them is how much they bother the player. You clearly ignored that they existed when you played Unleashed. That doesn't make them not occur.

Throughout, this conversation has discussed his complaints about the nature of the game, in the end it is clear that all of his problems could be solved if he just put a little bit of practice into the game.

And in the end it is clear that he shouldn't need to practice. This isn't DDR or Guitar Hero.

Sonic Unleashed is not a hard game, playing the game properly is the best way to see all the positive qualities it has to offer.

It is just that "playing the game properly" means "memorize the levels." And if I wanted to play "memorize the levels" I would play a rousing game of Simon while on acid.

*Looks at post rating*

Watch out: The Sonic Unleashed Anti-Hate Brigade is on patrol! Seriously people, grow the fuck up.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Tornado

[Kintor]

Tornado, I think that this has gone on for quite long enough. You’re not even trying any more. Please, don’t cut up post into individual sentence and then attack them, this sort of tactic just confused the issue and doesn’t really answer my post. An idea should examined in its entirety; no sentence can stand on its own, least of all the ones you have dissected here. I have done my best to answer you questions about my posts, even if you haven’t always understood what I’ve meant. I do not think there is anymore more to say on this subject, especially this late into the thread. Still, I’ll explain my position one more time, if only in the hope that you are more understanding of other people’s views in the future.

You must understand that what you have said in this thread is an opinion, not fact. Game are a highly subjective medium, dependent of the individual experiences of each gamer; regardless of what any reviewer will tell you. As such you must come to the realization that other human beings will hold views that are different to your own. In this strange situation do not instantly assume that they are wrong - here them out, it is possible that other views may hold some merit. If you listen to these ideas then maybe you’ll appreciate a game in a new light, you way is not always going to be the best way, think about that.

So then, in light of this thought, what can be said of Sonic Unleashed? If anything Tornado, I think that you should accept one thing: your views on the game are just one of many. As this thread has shown, others (myself included) have had no trouble playing Sonic Unleashed. I know for hearing about the difficulty you’ve been having, this may be hard to believe. Even so, what we say may just be true. In this case, I think that it is best to entertain the notion that Sonic Team is not impeding your enjoyment of the game, because others just don't seem to have any trouble at all. Instead, try to play the game in a slightly different way, as I have suggested to you before. Perhaps then you my come to see how other people can enjoy a video game while currently you do not.

I would continue this conversation further but I think that time has finally run out. This has gone on for a week already, far too long for such a minor point of contention; from where I’m sitting it’s now Christmas Eve, not time left to chat here. I’ve been very thorough in answering each and every one of your question, although it seems I am unable to change your mind on anything. Still, I hope that one day you can understand what I’ve been saying here. In my personal opinion, Sonic Unleashed is a well made and very fun game. I’ll happily continue this line of thought later, if you feel the need to bring it up again in some future thread; but for now I’m done here.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Kintor

[Phos]

I think it's hilarious that now you're saying that the problems people are having with the game are matters of opinion when when you were just claiming that The Sniper was wrong in matters of fact.

Please, don’t cut up post into individual sentence and then attack them, this sort of tactic just confused the issue and doesn’t really answer my post.

An argument is a set of premises that support a conclusion. By refuting the premises, you refute the argument.

no sentence can stand on its own

To be a sentence, it must be a complete thought, otherwise it would be a fragment.

I suspect Kintor is going to ignore this, but I bothered to find it, so I'm going to post it anyway. I am going to use science to demonstrate that Sonic Unleashed requires prior knowledge of upcoming obstacles for progression. Human Benchmark has found that the average human reaction time is 215 milliseconds. Knowing this, I downloaded

video of Dragon Road onto my computer. At approximately 1:29 seconds, there is a hole in the center rail that is obscured from view until frame # 2625. Were Sonic on the center rail, he would have hit the spikes and probably have died at frame # 2640. That means the hazard was on screen for 500 milliseconds before it would have killed the player. Were that the only factor, that would be enough time, but there are other factors as well. First off, the rail transfer move takes approximately four frames before Sonic is high enough to clear the spikes - That's 133 milliseconds. That means that the player would have 367 milliseconds to react - still enough time for at least half off all people. But that's still not all - traits innate to videogames add a certain amount of lagto the response from the controller. Sonic Unleashed runs at 30 FPS, the best it can possible be is an extra hundred milliseconds. That leaves 267 milliseconds to react Incedentially, I just took the test and my average was 261. Regardless, I can take heart that it wouldn't matter anyway, as most HDTVs add a frame or two of lag on top of however long it took to get the signal there, meaning that there is 235 milliseconds to react. But that's still below the average... an average that was calculated based on a test for which there is only one action to be taken on reaction to a single stimulus known in advance. This is something you could do, IF you knew what to expect. In Sonic Unleashed, you are still required to choose an action to take after identifying it. That's why the UK's highway code assumes a reaction time of 680 milliseconds, you need to recognize a situation, decide what to do, and then carry it out. Even assuming half of that, 340 milliseconds, that's still not fast enough to react to obstacles. Sonic Unleashed also has a lot of motion blur, making identifying obstacles even harder.

And I only picked this one because it was easy to measure, not because it was particularly unfair.

So,whoever's neg spaming, are you going to actually try and refute any of this or just silently pout about it?

Edited December 24, 2009 by Phos

[JezMM]

I think it's hilarious that now you're saying that the problems people are having with the game are matters of opinion when when you were just claiming that The Sniper was wrong in matters of fact.

An argument is a set of premises that support a conclusion. By refuting the premises, you refute the argument.

To be a sentence, it must be a complete thought, otherwise it would be a fragment.

I suspect Kintor is going to ignore this, but I bothered to find it, so I'm going to post it anyway. I am going to use science to demonstrate that Sonic Unleashed requires prior knowledge of upcoming obstacles for progression. Human Benchmark has found that the average human reaction time is 215 milliseconds. Knowing this, I downloaded

video of Dragon Road onto my computer. At approximately 1:29 seconds, there is a hole in the center rail that is obscured from view until frame # 2625. Were Sonic on the center rail, he would have hit the spikes and probably have died at frame # 2640. That means the hazard was on screen for 500 milliseconds before it would have killed the player. Were that the only factor, that would be enough time, but there are other factors as well. First off, the rail transfer move takes approximately four frames before Sonic is high enough to clear the spikes - That's 133 milliseconds. That means that the player would have 367 milliseconds to react - still enough time for at least half off all people. But that's still not all - traits innate to videogames add a certain amount of lagto the response from the controller. Sonic Unleashed runs at 30 FPS, the best it can possible be is an extra hundred milliseconds. That leaves 267 milliseconds to react Incedentially, I just took the test and my average was 261. Regardless, I can take heart that it wouldn't matter anyway, as most HDTVs add a frame or two of lag on top of however long it took to get the signal there, meaning that there is 235 milliseconds to react. But that's still below the average... an average that was calculated based on a test for which there is only one action to be taken on reaction to a single stimulus known in advance. This is something you could do, IF you knew what to expect. In Sonic Unleashed, you are still required to choose an action to take after identifying it. That's why the UK's highway code assumes a reaction time of 680 milliseconds, you need to recognize a situation, decide what to do, and then carry it out. Even assuming half of that, 340 milliseconds, that's still not fast enough to react to obstacles. Sonic Unleashed also has a lot of motion blur, making identifying obstacles even harder.

And I only picked this one because it was easy to measure, not because it was particularly unfair.

So,whoever's neg spaming, are you going to actually try and refute any of this or just silently pout about it?

That was actually really interesting, dunno who gave you negative rep for that but I just undid it. And I now feel much more accomplished for passing Unleashed's reaction test, haha.

I'm sorry Kintor, I'm totally pro-Unleashed as you may have seen, but even I can agree it's a very hard game. One of the hardest in the Sonic series. I also think it's one of the most fair and rewarding though - it definately is still unfair at times (ARID SANDS ACT 3 NIGHT ARHARGAHRAGHARGH), but most of the time it's fairly well-behaved when it comes to bugs and stuff. Whether reaction test gameplay among the platforming is one's cup of tea or not is entirely subjective.

But it is definately hard, and no I don't think the average child could master it, at all. They could probably finish the story if they stick to it enough. As said though, I found the game very rewarding and satisfying once your skill increases, which is what drove me to 100% finish both the 360 and Wii versions (including DLC).

[The-Master-Board]

So,whoever's neg spaming, are you going to actually try and refute any of this or just silently pout about it?

I doubt it. Kintor's argument has been "you suck at Unleashed that's why you find it bad" but shuts up or decides it has "gone on to long" when real evidence is presented.

Really Kintor, games are fun depending on the individual; some people find adrenaline sports fun, some people find long books fun and some people find sticking splinters under their fingernails fun, you can't however deny that Sonic Unleashed has some major gameplay flaws and the only reason you and others can enjoy this game is because your individual take on fun is to ignore these problems or not see them as problems in lieu of enjoying the game as a whole. However, as you should be able to tell from the many different posts in this topic, alot of people can't overlook those flaws and this makes Sonic Unleashed unenjoyable for them.

QTE's are inherently flawed, both in the daytime and nightime stages. Nobody wants to have control taken away from them, it was bad enough when they took our loop controls away when Sonic went to 3D, but to have to input a series of commands just to get further in the level or in some of the latter stages- just to stay alive- is wrong, and don't get me started on how werehog bosses gaining life back because of a failed QTE is just rediculous.

On the subject of controls, half the time you feel like you could go make yourself a cup of tea and the game would be fine by itself if not for holding down the boost button. In the classics although Sonic moved fast, a great deal of platforming was involved: shuffling about tiny platforms getting the right distance and timing for a jump, attacking an enemy at the right time, avoiding obstacles. Sonic Unleashed was really just a boost spam-fest and is the most guilty of all the newer Sonic games that steal gameplay from the player.

Then there are the deaths.

No game should punish the player with an obligatory death just so they have to memorise not to do the same next time. It is essentially making the game appear like it is hard by cheaply scolding the player for something that couldn't have been avoided unless they've memorised the level or have clairvoyance. It is like...like that random trip move they stupidly added in Super Smash Bros Brawl, the most seasoned player with all the smash bros skill in the world could still get F@*#ed over by something completely cheap and not his/her own fault.

Now don't go telling me I suck at the game, because in fact I have completed it, and I have a great memory (which in part is what helped me with SU) but even with all that; memorising a whole level so I know exactly which path to take and what to avoid - the game is never fun. I was sitting there just wanting it to end because I couldn't endure playing it any longer, but of course my stupid "Need-to-complete-every-game" idiosyncrasy was in effect so I had to at least complete it once. Yep. Once. That's all I wanted to play of SU. I can honestly say every other Sonic game I've at least had a second look at when bored, or in Sonic Heroes and the classics case: when I want to remember why I like Sonic, but SU made me want to put it in a dark corner and forget it ever existed.

But these all seem to be gameplay issues. Whilst they are some of the reason I hate Unleashed, my main disdain lies with the setting or the asthetics if you will. While they may be stunning graphically -(let me use another bad comparison) You could give the world's most tender, prime-grade, 5 star restraunt steak to a vegetarian and they wouldn't like it. Much in the same way, I don't like Sonic Unleashed because it isn't what I like in a Sonic game. Sure it might look nice, but that niceness is moot to me because I like my Sonic to look surreal and colourful and to NOT be set in a real world setting. I like the classics and Sonic Heroes style of Sonic's world - so Sonic Unleashed fails on both fronts for me, gameplay wise and visually. Sonic Unleashed is about as far from perfect as I have seen Sonic go so far, and I really hope (especially with Project needlemouse on the horizon)that we don't see anything like SU ever again.

EDIT: Nice work on those stats there Phos.

Edited December 24, 2009 by The-Master-Board

[Solid SOAP]

Am I the only one who thought that Unleashed looked pretty similar to Sonic 3 in terms of looks? Besides Spagonia, which was pretty much Italy with nothing changed, there were beaches, deserts, forests, cities (I thought Empire City looked surreal enough for a Sonic game imo), etc, all Sonic staples.

[Phos]

It sort of does, until you really study Sonic 3. Angel Island Zone has these angular rock formations and a bunch of plants that move around, Hydrocity Zone is absurdly huge and has those floating spinning things, Marble Garden Zone is unreasonably tall, Ice Cap is a gigantic ice structure that actually formed above ground, Launch Base has a much of weird stuff going on, Mushroom Hill has giant vines and shrooms all over the place, and you kick up luminous stuff while you run. Flying Battery Zone's surrealness is harder to place, but it has a decidedly fantastic nature about it.

[Sega DogTagz]

I suspect Kintor is going to ignore this, but I bothered to find it, so I'm going to post it anyway. I am going to use science to demonstrate that Sonic Unleashed requires prior knowledge of upcoming obstacles for progression. Human Benchmark has found that the average human reaction time is 215 milliseconds. Knowing this, I downloaded

video of Dragon Road onto my computer. At approximately 1:29 seconds, there is a hole in the center rail that is obscured from view until frame # 2625. Were Sonic on the center rail, he would have hit the spikes and probably have died at frame # 2640. That means the hazard was on screen for 500 milliseconds before it would have killed the player. Were that the only factor, that would be enough time, but there are other factors as well. First off, the rail transfer move takes approximately four frames before Sonic is high enough to clear the spikes - That's 133 milliseconds. That means that the player would have 367 milliseconds to react - still enough time for at least half off all people. But that's still not all - traits innate to videogames add a certain amount of lagto the response from the controller. Sonic Unleashed runs at 30 FPS, the best it can possible be is an extra hundred milliseconds. That leaves 267 milliseconds to react Incedentially, I just took the test and my average was 261. Regardless, I can take heart that it wouldn't matter anyway, as most HDTVs add a frame or two of lag on top of however long it took to get the signal there, meaning that there is 235 milliseconds to react. But that's still below the average... an average that was calculated based on a test for which there is only one action to be taken on reaction to a single stimulus known in advance. This is something you could do, IF you knew what to expect. In Sonic Unleashed, you are still required to choose an action to take after identifying it. That's why the UK's highway code assumes a reaction time of 680 milliseconds, you need to recognize a situation, decide what to do, and then carry it out. Even assuming half of that, 340 milliseconds, that's still not fast enough to react to obstacles. Sonic Unleashed also has a lot of motion blur, making identifying obstacles even harder.

Science! Well done there Phos. A finely constructed argument.

While I am here, I might as well contribute to my side of the cause, which incidentally goes in line with using scientific methods to destroy your science...... this should be interesting....

While looking over your paragraph, two things immediately jump out at me. The first was that you quantified a bit of your data with the average Human reaction time. I found this quite weird, especially considering you had the foresight to post your own reaction time that was better-than-average. I would have to imagine, and I am sure most people agree, that the average gamer would hold a significant reaction time advantage to the average person. Even children would benefit from a year or two of gaming to encompass the quick's necessary to tackle today's market of shooters and racers. This means that a gamer (young or old) would have a significantly better chance of fielding the necessary reactions in Unleashed than you indicated.

The second thing that jumped out at me was the kicker, Sonic himself. Anyone who has played Unleashed at length understands how much of a difference leveling up the Hedgehog's speed and boost can make. His stats are not static throughout the game. Since we are discussing the need or non-need of memorizing the levels, we would in turn to be limited to a Sonic available on the first play-through of a level. In other words, one with negligible stats. I seriously doubt that a Sonic with level 3 or 4 speed ratings would require as swift a reaction as the data you put forth Phos. The way that Sonic was hauling tail in that vid, I could have sworn it looked alot closer to a 9 or a 10. I could be mistaken, but the end of the vid also fails to show the level-up screen. Of course this means that an example must be provided with a low level Sonic. Anything else makes the reaction-time argument a mute point. No one is charging through Adabat with level 10 speed on their first trip through the game.

There are some other problems with the paragraph there, but these two kinda stuck out for me. If the reaction time data you cited came from gamers, then my first point is null. If the Sonic in the vid is level 1, then you are free to ignore my second point. If neither comes to be however, then your assessment on reaction time is flawed. It in no way, shape, or from represents what is asked of the player on the first play-through. Data formed from using a top-end Sonic with "the average person" holds no water when it comes to the prior memorization of levels being necessary or not. All it does is skew the end result in your favor.

Let alone that the player was really laying on the boost while a newbie "could" be more tentative.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[Tornado]

^ You're ignoring the likelihood that someone playing through the level the second or third time might not have necessarily memorized the level because they wouldn't have had to to beat it the first time. I've beaten every level in Sonic 2 more than once, but I can only remember the layout of maybe 3 of them. Therefore, when they have sped up after leveling up they are suddenly presented with the difficulty spiking rapidly as a "bonus" for their work in leveling Sonic up in the first place.

On top of that, Phos mentioned that he only chose this example because it was easy to measure. If we were talking, say, most of Eggmanland, the reaction times required would be even tighter, the chance for being of a higher level would be higher and the off-screen deaths would be more common.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

^ You're ignoring the likelihood that someone playing through the level the second or third time might not have necessarily memorized the level because they wouldn't have had to to beat it the first time. I've beaten every level in Sonic 2 more than once, but I can only remember the layout of maybe 3 of them. Therefore, when they have sped up after leveling up they are suddenly presented with the difficulty spiking rapidly as a "bonus" for their work in leveling Sonic up in the first place.

On top of that, Phos mentioned that he only chose this example because it was easy to measure. If we were talking, say, most of Eggmanland, the reaction times required would be even tighter, the chance for being of a higher level would be higher and the off-screen deaths would be more common.

If you remove Eggmanland as an outliner in this study (which is completely reasonable since it is kill-a-thon for the sake of being a kill-a-thon) than much of that discontent can go right out the window with it. Very few of the stages have segments that require the kind of precise movements necessary to that level of reaction time.

Even if someone were to chose leveling up Sonic's speed for the second or third run through, we are still talking sub-level 5. That's if your just poring exp to that single stat. In my experience, most people recommend sending accumulated exp in the other direction, over to the Werehog. In all likelihood, both scenarios equate to Sonic not being significantly faster the second time around. Its not like Sonic's speed will be at 8 the second time someone tries to tackle Empire City. By the third play-through, you should have a pretty good feel for a stage. If you don't have it memorized, than you would at least have a keen awareness of the problem areas, which removes these play-throughs from the study.

Also, regardless if Phos picked one that was "easy" to measure, all the things I have said stand true. You cant use a level 10 Sonic as a measurement of reaction time in this argument and you cant use the reaction time of the average person to compare it. It is a double whammy of bias.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It sort of does, until you really study Sonic 3. Angel Island Zone has these angular rock formations and a bunch of plants that move around, Hydrocity Zone is absurdly huge and has those floating spinning things, Marble Garden Zone is unreasonably tall, Ice Cap is a gigantic ice structure that actually formed above ground, Launch Base has a much of weird stuff going on, Mushroom Hill has giant vines and shrooms all over the place, and you kick up luminous stuff while you run. Flying Battery Zone's surrealness is harder to place, but it has a decidedly fantastic nature about it.

I think it's moreso the theme of the stages, not entirely about what is in them.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles may have some surreal elements in them, but the usual themes such as forests, cities, polar regions, deserts, etc are vastly comparable to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

[Cortez]

I think it's moreso the theme of the stages, not entirely about what is in them.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles may have some surreal elements in them, but the usual themes such as forests, cities, polar regions, deserts, etc are vastly comparable to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

And erm, every other Sonic game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And erm, every other Sonic game.

Oh yeah...that too.

[Dark Qiviut]

After reading many of the anti-Unleashed posts on this board, what I find highly ironic and hilarious is that people are being hypocrites by complaining about the game and level design being trial-and-error-based.

Well, good news, guys. Many of the past Sonic games are heavily relied on trial-and-error. More specifically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles! That game itself is DESIGNED on trial-and-error. The stage-specific platforming, all the bosses, the puzzles, and Doomsday Zone controls (particularly in damaging Eggman) are just some examples. The trial-and-error design and puzzles are some of the key secrets why S3&K was successful to start with.

And I can name one great example of trial-and-error gameplay from S3&K that I'm sure all of you remember: the Carnival Night barrel! Completely trial-and-error. VERY little to no clues as to HOW to solve it. You have to guess in order to finally pass it.

Unleashed is absolutely no exception. All Sonic Team (and Dimps for the Daytime Wii/PS2 version) did was take the trial-and-error roots from the past games and make it more extreme and more difficult.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Dark Qiviut

[Solid SOAP]

It sort of does, until you really study Sonic 3. Angel Island Zone has these angular rock formations and a bunch of plants that move around, Hydrocity Zone is absurdly huge and has those floating spinning things, Marble Garden Zone is unreasonably tall, Ice Cap is a gigantic ice structure that actually formed above ground, Launch Base has a much of weird stuff going on, Mushroom Hill has giant vines and shrooms all over the place, and you kick up luminous stuff while you run. Flying Battery Zone's surrealness is harder to place, but it has a decidedly fantastic nature about it.

There are plenty of surreal things in Unleashed as well, perhaps not quite as much as S3 but they're there. The abnormally large tree in Mazuri, the ridiculous amount of crossing and intersecting roads and floating highways in Empire City, the floating barrels and dragon highways in Chun-nan, etc. There are plenty of levels in Unleashed that are realistic to the point of pretty much trying to look near exactly like specific cities in the world (Such as Apotos and Spagonia), but you can't deny Unleashed's whimsical charm in levels such as Chun-nan and Mazuri, also the entirety of Eggmanland is more sureal and fantastical than anything the Sonic series has seen since Sonic 2.

EIther way, the game looks great and still manages to be extremely colorful and lighthearted, keeping a very Sonic tone throughout the game, which is nice and I haven't played a game that felt this "Sonic" since Heroes.

[Phos]

While looking over your paragraph, two things immediately jump out at me. The first was that you quantified a bit of your data with the average Human reaction time. I found this quite weird, especially considering you had the foresight to post your own reaction time that was better-than-average. I would have to imagine, and I am sure most people agree, that the average gamer would hold a significant reaction time advantage to the average person. Even children would benefit from a year or two of gaming to encompass the quick's necessary to tackle today's market of shooters and racers. This means that a gamer (young or old) would have a significantly better chance of fielding the necessary reactions in Unleashed than you indicated.

Look again, my reaction time is worse than average (avg: 215, me: 261. Even my lowest was at around 220). If there's any bias, it's more likely to be in the other direction, this test strikes me as the sort of thing that people who play video games would find. I also mentioned previously that the reaction test this average came from a test with much simpler recognition requirements than anything you're going to find in Sonic Unleashed. There's an entire extra mental step involved. There's also the matter of difficulty in recognizing hazards. They're often small in size and this problem is compounded by the game's motion blur. I don't know if this is a problem for everyone, but I have a an easier (thus faster) time recognizing things at 60 FPS. These factors are harder to measure, but are nontrivial.

I'll get back to you on speed. I don't notice a significant difference in max speed between even level 1 and max. I've hypothesized for a while that this stat affects acceleration more than speed. I might not be able to devise a good test as I have no working capture hardware.