Death in the Sonic series.

[Dr. Mechano]

Unscathed?

It's a shattered husk of a base with green radioactive sludge flowing everywhere!

UNSCATHED?

Well, okay, but the island was pretty clearly destroyed in SA2, which still makes its continued existence nothing short of miraculous.

...Actually, this raises further questions. Where's this radioactive sludge coming from? I mean, even if we accept that it was caused by the explosion, explosions typically don't just make horrifying radioactive chemicals materialize out of nowhere and proceed to flood the premises.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Well, okay, but the island was pretty clearly destroyed in SA2, which still makes its continued existence nothing short of miraculous.

...Actually, this raises further questions. Where's this radioactive sludge coming from? I mean, even if we accept that it was caused by the explosion, explosions typically don't just make horrifying radioactive chemicals materialize out of nowhere and proceed to flood the premises.

They do if they're nuclear explosions.

Robotnik did seem to get a disproportionate amount of BANG! for his buck with those dinky little explosive devices he left on the island...

[Cortez]

Don't know if it was mentioned yet (haven't read all the pages here) but surely the most pathetic death scene we've ever seen in a Sonic game are the variations of Eggman's death in ShTH? The whole concept of it was uncalled for and utterly ridiculous, Shadow had fought Eggman many times prior to that event and even worked with him on occasion though for some reason he just felt like 'lol I'll just kill you for the sake of it'.

There was no explaination for the death, no motive behind it, the whole ordeal was a desperate attempt to make an interesting ending scene. Easily worse than Sonic's death.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Don't know if it was mentioned yet (haven't read all the pages here) but surely the most pathetic death scene we've ever seen in a Sonic game are the variations of Eggman's death in ShTH? The whole concept of it was uncalled for and utterly ridiculous, Shadow had fought Eggman many times prior to that event and even worked with him on occasion though for some reason he just felt like 'lol I'll just kill you for the sake of it'.

There was no explaination for the death, no motive behind it, the whole ordeal was a desperate attempt to make an interesting ending scene. Easily worse than Sonic's death.

No motive behind it?

The Lava Shelter route is the one where Shadow ends up believing he really is an android. And he spends several cutscenes from the start of Iron Jungle through to the Egg Dealer yelling about how he's gonna revenge himself against the Doctor simply out of wrath at his own genesis - pretty much like Mewtwo in the Pokemon Movie, if we're going for weird trans-franchise referencing.

It made sense to me. Besides, it's not really required to have the same degree of gravitas as Gamma's death or anything, given that it's a "what might have been".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They do if they're nuclear explosions.

Robotnik did seem to get a disproportionate amount of BANG! for his buck with those dinky little explosive devices he left on the island...

Maybe Shadow planted a smaller explosive device on some nuclear weapons stocked on the Island? For an island designated as a military prison, it had a helluva lot of artillery on it in sake of security.

[Octarine]

Don't know if it was mentioned yet (haven't read all the pages here) but surely the most pathetic death scene we've ever seen in a Sonic game are the variations of Eggman's death in ShTH? The whole concept of it was uncalled for and utterly ridiculous, Shadow had fought Eggman many times prior to that event and even worked with him on occasion though for some reason he just felt like 'lol I'll just kill you for the sake of it'.

My biggest problem with that was that even if you did Eggman's mission in Lava Shelter, Shadow still killed him. In all of the game's ten endings, there wasn't a single one that let Shadow actually team up with Eggman, making the whole LOL YOU'RE AN ANDROID gambit entirely ineffectual.

[Cortez]

No motive behind it?

The Lava Shelter route is the one where Shadow ends up believing he really is an android. And he spends several cutscenes from the start of Iron Jungle through to the Egg Dealer yelling about how he's gonna revenge himself against the Doctor simply out of wrath at his own genesis - pretty much like Mewtwo in the Pokemon Movie, if we're going for weird trans-franchise referencing.

It made sense to me. Besides, it's not really required to have the same degree of gravitas as Gamma's death or anything, given that it's a "what might have been".

Even as a 'what might have been' it wasn't properly justified. He still has all his memories of Heroes and Eggman had done nothing to antagonise Shadow in that game, any reason Shadow was given for being sealed away was given to him by an imposter (which he was aware of by the end of the game) and before the credits both he and Omega had worked with Eggman anyway. Between Heroes and ShTH Eggman has had seemingly no contact with either Shadow or Omega but for some reason after randomly Chaos Controlling into Iron Jungle and learning that the original Shadow died and that he is a copy (something that he had been contemplating since Heroes anyway) decides that he and Omega should seek out and ultimatly kill Eggman despite being on good terms with him from their last encounter.

It makes NO SENSE.

I've read the Gerald discussion on the previous pages now as well, wow, how the hell did they go from putting that much thought and consideration into a storyline to Heroes!?

[Dr. Mechano]

Agreed. Shadow had no logical reason to kill Eggman in any ending.

"You created me?! That suddenly makes me want to kill you even though I didn't want to before learning this!"

I'm sorry. What.

[Cortez]

Forgot to mention this in my last post btw, bare with me xD

The situation is similar to Mewtwo's, but after the clones of the girl, Squirtle, Bulbasaur and Charmander have died they continued to work on Mewtwo, leading him to believe he was merely a labrat as opposed to something that had a purpose. I mean, one of the first things he is told is that the people who allowed his friends to die have plenty more tests to perform on him, hence why he goes batshit insane and kills the fuck out of everyone involved.

Even with no recollection of his past Shadow quickly made friends, he had no reason to hate anyone and Team Dark's story in Heroes was basically Rouge's treasure hunt on which they happened to learn either Eggman or Metal Sonic had created a bunch of Shadow clones. While in Bullet Station Shadow seemed intrigued that these copies existed it certainly didn't seem to bother him with him not even bringing the subject up again for the rest of the game.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

My biggest problem with that was that even if you did Eggman's mission in Lava Shelter, Shadow still killed him. In all of the game's ten endings, there wasn't a single one that let Shadow actually team up with Eggman, making the whole LOL YOU'RE AN ANDROID gambit entirely ineffectual.

While all the killing does make sense to me, I'll second the notion that there should have been ONE path where Shadow "Android" becomes the new Metal Sonic - Robotnik's right-hand henchman, furiously determined to smash Sonic and create his master's Eggman Empire. That would have been sweet.

Instead the best treatment the Doctor gets is to be banished from the Ark by a suddenly very posessive Shadow. :/

[Diogenes]

Could someone (calmly) explain why this is a common opinion? I never understood what was so poorly executed about Sonic's death in that game... (Plot-wise; I can see where the complaints about the graphics and such come from)

Hoo boy, let's see...

Well, first off, it's an uphill battle from the start. You know they aren't going to kill off the main and title character of the series, the company's mascot, and a significant source of income. You know it like you know your own name. So unless you're really absorbed into the game, the second he falls, you're checking your watch and timing how long until he's resurrected. You might argue that the same is true of the conflict as a whole; we know Sonic's going to stop Eggman and save the day just like we know he isn't going to die/remain dead. But I think the difference is, in the first case, we don't know how he's going to do it, and that's why it's still interesting. But in the death case, it's very likely to be (and in this case, is) a cheesy deus ex machina pulled off while the character is just laying there dead.

Second, by this point most people just wanted it all to end. This isn't just one bad scene in an otherwise good (or even mediocre) game; it's a particularly rancid little turdlet in a shit sandwich of a game. Whether you agree or not, that's how a lot of people see it. And that means they feel every flaw twice as hard as the last. By the end of the game they're praying for a break, but it only gets worse.

But this is all tangential. They both contribute, but neither could ruin the scene on its own. The real death blow is, of course, the scene itself.

One, it's essentially the capping point of Sonic's relevance to the story, which is pretty much not a goddamn thing. Sonic's story is all just him playing hide and seek with Elise and Eggman, the three of them running in circles and accomplishing fuck all. The real meat of the story is in Shadow and Silver's stories; they're the ones who figure out what's going on and actually come into contact with the real villains. So we get to the last story, which is supposed to bring everything together and tie up the loose ends, and what happens to Sonic? He's dead. That's exactly how pointless he is to the story, he doesn't even need to be alive for the climax. The only reason he mattered at all was to get Elise to cry.

Two, the death just comes out of nowhere. Sonic and Elise are walking along, they're blinded by a light, Sonic gets shot in the back, the end. We're supposed to accept this as the end of Sonic the Hedgehog? Guy saves the world dozens of times, and all you had to do was flash a light in his face and shoot him? Even if it wasn't dumb as shit, there's no buildup, it just sort of happens. Instead of an emotional moment, it barely even registers as mild surprise. "Oh, he's dead? Well, hm...I give it ten minutes *checks watch*". And, again, Sonic's never even seen this guy. This whole plot was going on behind his back, which only serves to underline how pointless he is.

Three, the resurrection. We all knew he'd come back, most of us could've guessed it'd be dumb, but man, they really went all out with the terrible, here. The kiss, of course, is the forced and unwanted romance that permeated Sonic's story distilled in its most concentrated form. What's supposed to be a serious moment ends up laughable, narmy, squicky, or some combination of the three (and the clash of a fairly realistic human and a giant-headed cartoon hedgehog really doesn't help matters). The emeralds randomly being able to resurrect someone doesn't sit too well, either; sure, they're our usual "fix everything" magic rocks, but they generally had a more reasonable (though flexible) range of powers before that, and giving a major element of a series the power to counteract death is basically setting it up to be abused.

[Semi-colon e]

I have to agree completely Diogenes, I hated how much of a gimp Sonic was in this game. I mean I like a more calmer Sonic sometimes, but he literally does nothing, and the fact he has more relevance when DEAD is an atrocity that fills me with the biggest nerdrage ever. It really is Shadow and Silver's story, which is bullshit as even OMEGA has more relevance than Sonic. Actually so does Eggman, he kinda comes into Shadow's and Silver's stories a bit. For a game called "Sonic the Hedgehog" it has so little to do with Sonic. Sonic just literally repeats the beginning to Wave Ocean part of the plot like FIVE TIMES. Hell, Elise even gets rescued by Amy and KIDNAPPED AGAIN when Sonic is away in the future, and all Sonic is concerned about in the future is Elise, even though he fights Iblis and never mentions it again, or even asks anyone wtf is actually going on behind his back. Surely if he asked Shadow Sonic would know more stuff about the plot and why saving Elise is so important rather than DOOMED FUTURE LOL. That and Sonic is a complete idiot as well, he walks right into the trap in White Acropolis, is like OH SHIT 200 YEARS IN THE FUTURE ELISE IS DEAD which is a bit like NO SHIT SHERLOCK! And more.

And yeah, Sonic never even meeting Mephiles or knowing about the whole Solaris past thing is lame as hell, considering Sonic is just Elise's escort, why was it SILVER who saw the Duke die, which was another pivotal death scene which at least was carried out much better than Sonic's own death.

The only good thing about Sonic's death scene is when the laser hits him and it goes black and white for a split second imo. And the only good thing about Sonic in 06's plot is the last couple of cutscenes, where it is mildly about him, though he's with Elise who steals scenes as usual. I do like the last couple of cutscenes though, done masterfully. If only the rest of the game was.

I mean, I liked the whole idea of the Iblis and Mephiles stuff, I thought it was great, I just wish Sonic had have been more involved in it. Probably would have made for a more entertaining story. It's obvious some thought was put into the plot - for Silver's and Shadow's stories. They had no idea what to do for Sonic, and that is really sad

Even more offtopic, this is why I like SA1's story so much. Everyone is relevant, but the main story is you know, Sonic's. Even Big has a small relevance, especially with froggy and that, and is the one who sees Chaos 4 become Chaos 6. That's more relevance than Tails and Knuckles have in 06.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Semi-colon e

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I mean, I liked the whole idea of the Iblis and Mephiles stuff, I thought it was great, I just wish Sonic had have been more involved in it. Probably would have made for a more entertaining story. It's obvious some thought was put into the plot - for Silver's and Shadow's stories. They had no idea what to do for Sonic, and that is really sad

No. Just no.

Paradox after paradox after "LOL IM MEPHILES THE RECOLOUR".

[Semi-colon e]

No. Just no.

Paradox after paradox after "LOL IM MEPHILES THE RECOLOUR".

At least it was explained why Mephiles looked like Shadow. That and I'm just assuming they didn't have time to fix the plot up when they first wrote it. I'm probably wrong, but you know. There's still some thought there rather than Sonic's RESCUE ELISE A BILLION TIMES part of it.

Also the Mephiles trying to tempt Shadow to be evil was kinda cool :x Though his manipulation of Silver was a little pointless.

It has to be said, Sonic was treated like shit compared to the other 2 hedgehogs, I mean his death scene is worse than the Duke's death scene. And even that scene is given to Silver. I assume they wanted Sonic to have a typical chase Eggman plot, but they fucked that up with Elise's inclusion.

(the duke's death scene was handled pretty well imo apart from the shoddy graphics)

Edited December 18, 2009 by Semi-colon e

[Frozen Nitrogen]

(the duke's death scene was handled pretty well imo apart from the shoddy graphics)

Better than Sonic's, but I wouldn't say well. He does take an awful long time to die, and then does so in the most cliche of manners - exactly as he gets to the end of delivering his (ineffective) "heartfelt monologue".

[Semi-colon e]

Better than Sonic's, but I wouldn't say well. He does take an awful long time to die, and then does so in the most cliche of manners - exactly as he gets to the end of delivering his (ineffective) "heartfelt monologue".

Maybe I should have said "pretty well for Sonic 06's standards" It wasn't that bad. It might have had more of an effect if it was Sonic that was there rather than Silver, as Sonic would actually feel for Elise for a reasonable reason?

[Jix Hedgehog]

They can kill off characters, but most of the time they come back in later games (Shadow, Emerl).. So I think they've only used death to make an ending better

[Reading]

You know they aren't going to kill off the main and title character of the series, the company's mascot, and a significant source of income. You know it like you know your own name. So unless you're really absorbed into the game, the second he falls, you're checking your watch and timing how long until he's resurrected.

I never thought "killing" the main character is so bad as some people think; of course they'll be brought back somehow, but such a thing happening to the main character creates suspense and has me wondering what will happen as a result and how he'll be brought back. Which, unfortunately, I spoiled for myself when I thought I'd never get to play the game...but it was effective anyway. I do get really absorbed into games when I play them.

I see how the scene was flawed, although it's still one of my favorite plot twists in the series. It's so dark and unexpected, and the way it finally answered the whole Silver/Iblis Trigger/Elise crying buildup in the game's plot would've been quite surprising and twisted had I not known it was coming. As I said, it was still an effective scene for me, and experiencing the conclusion of that plot thread was still intense and dramatic, but if only I'd been more optimistic...

I agree that Sonic should've been more involved in the game's plot, though. I mean, it's called Sonic. He should have something to do that's more interesting than rescuing a princess multiple times.

[Phos]

THIS MAKES NO SENSE, SEGA, IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!"

It seems now you are seeing why I keep saying this game's story was such a mess.

The sludge in ShtH could be explained as radioactive waste that GUN kept in the base, BUT for that to be the case they would have to have evacuated Not San Fransisco, as the island would have essentially been a dirty bomb.

And radioactive marital isn't green, blah blah blah.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Phos