What would you like to see in a 3D Sonic game?

[azoo]

Everybody is saying it like Mario was dramatically changed in Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy's gameplay. Sure, his moves are more acrobatic, he doesn't need a run button anymore, his stages aren't linear, he has a life counter now and the growing mushroom is missing. But so what? What else is different? Not really anything. Mario is still hopping and bopping the same enemies and still platforming, still using powerups, still grabbing coins and still saving Princess Peach from Bowser. Most of the things added to his gameplay was to improve it for the third dimension. Sonic, on the other hand, has had his gameplay altered completely from a physics-based speedy platformer to a hold-X, trial & error reflex test built only with the knowledge that Sonic is fast, collects and loses rings, and runs to the end of the level, with no qualities that match what used to be. And don't try to say that it's an improvement to the series for making a more "solid and original three dimensional experience".

is it that hard to understand nowadays that Sonic isn't all about 100% LOLSPEED all the time? He's a platformer, and he's a hedgehog (which means that he rolls, for the love of Morgan Freeman).

Edited December 23, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

^ In all fairness, Mario DID change a lot from 2D to 3D. In fact, Galaxy was the first time it really came back to resemble the original games at all gameplay-wise.

Sure Sonic now has a boost, and he doesn't use pinball physics, and the levels are more realistic aesthetically and badniks aren't around anymore. But he still has speedy gameplay, must avoid hazards as they come up fairly quickly, bops enemies on the head, collects rings and loses them when hit, and has get-from-A-to-B style levels.

Unfortunately those kinda comparisons will always either succeed or fail purely based on how much detail - and which details - you choose to acknowledge.

Believe it or not, some Mario fans believe MARIO going to 3D was a mistake, and the games are ruined forever, and the new 2D games don't match the old ones enough, etc etc.

[Diogenes]

Everybody is saying it like Mario was dramatically changed in Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy's gameplay. Sure, his moves are more acrobatic, he doesn't need a run button anymore, his stages aren't linear, he has a life counter now and the growing mushroom is missing.

And any one of these changes (or the appropriate Sonic equivalent) would be enough to provoke outrage in the fanbase.

Imagine a Sonic game that complicated the controls with extra moves, added a button to make him run faster, made the stages linear, gave him a life bar rather than the usual ring system, and removed his iconic items. You think the fans would be okay with that? I don't think so.

...'cause that's pretty damn close to Unleashed, and that didn't go over so well.

Mario is still hopping and bopping the same enemies and still platforming, still using powerups, still grabbing coins and still saving Princess Peach from Bowser.

And Sonic's still running around at the speed of sound, bouncing off springs and collecting rings, smashing up robots to stop Doc Eggman's evil schemes. I suppose he really hasn't changed at all, then!

is it that hard to understand nowadays that Sonic isn't all about 100% LOLSPEED all the time?

Has anyone even said this? I sure haven't, and I can't remember anyone else saying it either.

[Phos]

The levels changed, but Mario still moved in much the same way. He speeds up and slows down in the same way, he stay in the air for the same amount of time, he still uses turtle shells for things, and still ha the same basic art direction. He got some more kinds of jumps, but those were entirely new abilities, not replacement for old ones. He had that funny slide more for a while, but Nintendo got rid of it when they realized that it was really only useful for tool assisted speed running.

The removal of Sonic's rolling behavior on it's own is a much more substantial change than anything that happened to Mario, but they also replaced Sonic's ability to roll with some kind of goofy and surprisingly awkward to use sliding kick (Which they then replaced with the boost) and either replaced or all but replaced jumping into enemies with the HA.

Mario's level design added a much more free roaming element to it, but make no mistake, this change actually serves to lessen the overall change to the experience. In the 2D games, there were many secrets to find within the 2D planes of the levels. If you were to do hide secrets in the same way in a 3D game, they would essentially be directly in your path, or very nearly so. If these secrets weren't out in the open, this would probably result in encouraging the player to act randomly, hitting everything they can find. Do not mistake this for a minor aspect, almost half of all the exits in SMW are superfluous for beating the game, thus the player can be expected to spend a proportionally similar amount of time finding them. The same cannot be said for Sonic. Starting primarily with Adventure 2, Sonic's levels became much more directed, with essentially linear strait aways ending in springs or boost pads sending Sonic in whatever direction he needs to go next, culminating in Sonic Unleashed, a game that I wouldn't be surprised if it had been designed via storyboard.

There's also another side to this story. When Miyamoto tested the first playable prototype of Super Mario 64, he thought that moving Mario around in three dimensions was so much fun that he thought it barely needed a game to be built around it. This impression is clearly visible in the final product as the levels seem to have been designed as places for Mario to move around in from point to point rather than in any specific linearly defined path. Sonic's never really had something similar to that, there's never been a 3D Sonic game where it's fun just to move Sonic around.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Phos

[azoo]

Everything Phos said is the absolute truth of what I was saying. I'm sure you're all going to deny the fact that Sonic has changed a lot more than Mario has. At least Mario is still platforming, when the same can obviously not be said about Sonic.

Some people like to complain about the fact that we want a game that plays like a 3D version of the classics, and snarl at our line "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". But why do you?! What's so wrong with the idea that platforming, physics and speed can come together to make an awesome Sonic game in 3D? What's so flawed about it? Can you just not see what we're seeing? Can you not see Sonic charging a Spindash and shooting up a Sonic 2-styled corkscrew and launching off at blistering speeds, looking at a giant world below as your skydiving towards it? I don't know about you, but that sounds like gold to me.

I would like to say that Unleashed's control setup was like this, I really would, but it's too far away to be a fully enjoyable Sonic game. Here's a list of improvements I would have to see before I can really accept Unleashed:

. replace the slide with the roll (since he is a hedgehog after all), and enforce "spinball physics" in this mode

. make the boost where it needs to gain momentum some before hitting insane speeds

. Make the ability to boost also somewhat effected by "spinball physics"

. Make it where Sonic is rolling or doing some kind of attack pose in this mode (because it's stupid he could kill people with his face)

. Modify usage of the gauge to where it gains slower and loses faster (making the tension of the boost and keeping the pace a lot more exciting)

. Modify the drift to where it works more as a powerslide from OutRun or something, where you can't snake it)

. Fix jumping mechanics to where Sonic can steer correctly in midair

. When Sonic hits an enemy with a jump, he bounces off of them pike he does the balloons in SU (since that's how it worked in the classics and give better control)

. Make it where Sonic catches himself on a ledge just in case the slippery controls lead you to fall off from somewhere

And after all that, level design is still to be worried about. Here are my suggestions for that:

. Open up the stages a whole lot more, and allow for many routes and hidden secrets found through exploration

. Bring back a high amount of platforming and puzzles, with occasional places for uberspeed, kinda split up in sections through the levels

. Stop spamming dash panels and locking controls in certain places to where you can't control the input of Sonic

. Don't put up these "hand-holding" sections of levels (like "homing attack across this path" or "light dash herelol") mandatory, and leave them at a minimum

. Cease the trial-and-error. No more of this "reflex test" bull; as it just irritates the player

. No more QTEs, as they also irritate the player and bog down gameplay with fake difficulty. Replace QTE ramps with real ramps where Sonic can use momentum to get to higher ground

. Try to erase nearly all bottomless pits, and let them be only if the stage suggests it (like a sky base or something)

. LET ME GO UNDERWATER PLZKTHX.

And you see, that's a lot of improvement Sega would have to do. But if I could have a game like that, then I'd be all fine and dandy. Too bad the gameplay has led me to where I'm not.

[Tori Himemiya]

The only thing that I personally want to see in any Sonic game is rather childish but... I just want a colorful adventure that is really good. I want Sonic vs Eggman again but you could pick sides like SA2 had in mind. But that's just me. I already had the Sonic game I wanted. But it was The Black Knight so I'm sastified I suppose.