Slipping away...

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Also...as I look back to how I was back in 2005...all I can think of was Amy and I was a total fangirl...but today, I'm not showing any Amy love anymore...not because she's getting worse or anything but it's because of the games.

Shadow, Sonic '06 and Unleashed...they didn't just meet up with my expectations (Unleashed was okay, but it was disappointing...) and Black Knight...I didn't want to have Black Knight because it's another disappointing Sonic game in to the list and I actually knew this game was not for me since when info was leaked, but I got it as one of my birthday presents which kinda sucks 'cos now I have to play it when I'm bored. =/

Yeah they were actually. Shadow the Hedgehog would be the only exception because a lot of the times you're going from point A to B to C and D only to go back to a previous point because you missed part of an objective.

Everything else still follows Sonic Adventure's point A to B layout.

A lot of those gimmicks are things that have very little impact to keep it from not being a Sonic Adventure 3.

Sonic Heroes is Sonic Adventure 3 only with team gameplay and nothing more.

Sonic 06 is a pure breed Sonic Adventure 3 and there's absolutely no argument in trying to separate them.

Sonic Unleashed...follows much more like Sonic Rush and God of War than a Sonic adventure 3, so yeah you'd have a point when it comes to that.

So basically Heroes and '06 are Sonic Adventure 3 with small extra gimmicks. Well, that explains why I enjoyed the gameplay of those games, but '06 was just a pain in the ass....

Edited March 19, 2009 by Spicylicious

[Zaysho]

If you're sick of Sega/ST's efforts, you could always give the fangaming front a chance, at least. Some of them can handle nostalgia a LOT better than modern day Sonic Team, imo.

This is a problem, in my opinion. Everyone is so obsessed with nostalgia and holding Sonic up to it that they refuse to view the games on their own merit. It's never "Sonic Unleashed is a great game because x" or even "Sonic Unleashed isn't a good game because of y"; it's always "Sonic Unleashed sucks because it's not Sonic 1 and it wasn't released on the Genesis and Sonic should just die *blahblahblahbitchmoanwhine*" Now, I know I'm going to get shit for saying that we never do this Mario because the Mario games are so polished, but I really don't think it's fair that Sonic's newer games are constantly being hated on just because it's not the same as it was back in the 90s. That's the point, it isn't the 90s. Why is Sonic FORBIDDEN to do anything that's not running by fans and critics? And hell, when they do get that, they start complaining that it's more of the same and that Sonic should slow down and what not and we shouldn't just RUN-RUN-RUN-RUN-JUST-HOLD-RIGHT-LOL. I really don't get it. Just play the games, don't bitch about gimmicks and try to see if you can play it without thinking "this sucks, I'ma go play Sonic 1 before they added all these friends and shit!" I'm not saying you have to love the games, but if you STOP comparing them to the originals so much you might be able to enjoy even just a little bit. If you hate it, hate it for a good reason that's not circling around an idea (as in "I hate the idea of swords or Werehogs!" without actually playing the game) or the fact that it doesn't hold up to what you remember from the 90s.

Though, I will say this, there are some decent fangames out there.

In answering the topic, nope, I haven't given up on the series. Really, I consider Sonic to have such a strong influence on me that I can't just toss it out like I did other things from my childhood (the less said about THAT the better). The series is right up there with the timeless Looney Tunes and everything else that inspired my first (horrible) attempts at drawing and my pursuit of cartooning. SEGA has to do something massively messed up for me to go and start a big bonfire with all my CDs, comics and games. I can't really IGNORE Sonic's past missteps, but there hasn't been anything massive to make want to just throw my hands up in the air and say "fuck it." I haven't bought every single Sonic game out there, but the ones I've play haven't done anything to really demoralize Sonic to me. I've seen where they went wrong and playing Unleashed, it gives me a lot of confidence that the new Sonic Team knows what it's doing and will be able to put out a good game.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Zaysho

[SchemingMinor]

First off, has there been any gems you have missed out playing on ( Rush/Rush Adventure while short on gameplay is pleasing in a small way.) in the long run? If you haven't please do check those out.

But yes, I am also with you on this page of the recent Sonic titles lacking. The recent titles feel like there is something missing from them, and honestly the only thing that makes me keep coming back to them is Robotnik. In a way, I feel bad for buying a game just for one character, even though I find everything else bland, dull, and short-lived. I feel like I am supporting bad habits and telling Sonic Team with my money, that it (game) is something that I would like to see more of.

Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that I haven't enjoyed anything they have done in the past and recently. To be frank the DS hand held games do fill that niche, but only for a short time (I have no earthly idea how the PSP games are, and honestly I have no intention to buy a PSP system for only two games when I can spend said money on other games that I want.)

You know what I have been doing in this drought? I have been playing with my first gaming love, Mario. This past Christmas I feel like I dodged a HUGE bullet by exchanging Unleashed for Wario Land: Shake It! With Wario Land, I still play hours on end; and I feel that Unleashed might not of had the replay value as the aforementioned "Bizarro Mario" adventure.

Mario has been keeping me afloat for a while. I suggest you should do the same (it doesn't have to be Mario) until Sonic Team gets their act together.

You will always find your way back to your first gaming love, eventually.

(I still play with Mario Kart DS almost every day after purchasing it almost two years ago. While it is indeed getting a bit stale, I still have tones of fun with the Battle system, even making up my own rules to fit my own missions.)

[Phos]

The chao creep me out ever since they acted out a terrible fan fic (I had a NiGHTS chao and a Shadow chao... and they made an egg *shudder*).

Seems to me that the problem with newer Sonic games is that the game play is really shallow.

[123654]

I was losing faith in Sonic around 2K6, but Secret Rings sort of built a little back up and the handhelds, along with Unleashed, have all but completely restored it. Now I just want them to improve on the good points instead of changing everything again for the umpteenth time.

[Little Miss Fortunes]

I'm still as attached to the series as I was when I first got obsessed with it. I don't think there's much that could shake my fandom... Possibly if they did a series reboot where it was just Sonic and Eggman in every single game and nothing more - I actually like the large cast of characters.

But, I suppose I am on a different wavelength to a lot of fans because I'm in for the character-appeal the series offers rather than the gameplay. I'm not a gamer by any stanard - I barely play any games outside of the Sonic fandom, and so I suppose, compared to others, I have a very loose concept on gameplay. For example, I really, truly enjoyed Sonic 06's gameplay, especially Silver's... and I adored the Co-Op mode so much!

So yeah, my love of our little blue hero isn't going anywhere fast. XD

[Indigo Rush]

My faith for the series is pretty much non-existent now. I spend more time researching the older games and study on what has worked and how it could be applied to appeal to the next generation. Too bad I'm not going to do that for a living. I still play the games when I can, it's just not the same Sonic from the 90s and early 2000s.

[Blacklightning]

Seems to me that the problem with newer Sonic games is that the game play is really shallow.

Funny, you're the LAST person I expected to hear that from. For most other people it's exactly the opposite - that Sonic games just need to be simple. Eh, must be classicfaggery getting to their heads.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Funny, you're the LAST person I expected to hear that from. For most other people it's exactly the opposite - that Sonic games just need to be simple. Eh, must be classicfaggery getting to their heads.

Well the 'classicfaggery' is actually what brought Sonic the Hedgehog to life. Not that I'm a classic fan, but I rather play Sonic 3 than Black Knight anyday.

[Mollfie]

I've never been HUGELY into Sonic. I like the 2D games alot, the 3D ones I've either not played much or am not to bothered by. I do however like the characters and like seeing what they're up to. Sometimes I don't even bother to play the games and just watch Jez play them so I get the fun of the story and cutscenes etc.

[SuperStingray]

Seems to me that the problem with newer Sonic games is that the game play is really shallow.

I don't think the problem is so much that the gameplay is "shallow" as that it's not "shallow" enough. I think the Sonic series is as entitled to have spinoffs just as much as any other franchise, but each game, even in the mainstream series, is so different from the last that the series doesn't have many defining elements anymore.

Edited March 19, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Erazor]

My love for the series still burns like the fires of Olympus.

[Morphed Chaos]

Well, the games really aren't what does it for me with the series, Last one I've played is Secret Rings, I'm fine playing SA2 or something and figuring new and epic ways to get A ranks, which is fun.

Really, its the RP aspect that you can use, and the characters themselves, such as Eggman, Tails, and if you watched the Anime, Cosmo (Soulmate for tails that worked so well.) I need to pick up Chronicles though, that game looks fun!

Wonder if they'll ever revive Cosmo, its just so sad what happened. (Sonic X in Japanese is just so epic, and boy is that scene still strong on my mind, even after a week has passed...) They did include her in Chronicles as the plant in Tails' workshop, so we'll see what happens.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Morphed Chaos

[Diogenes]

This is a problem, in my opinion. Everyone is so obsessed with nostalgia and holding Sonic up to it that they refuse to view the games on their own merit.

People keep saying this, but it's fucking wrong.

I can look at these games objectively. I can judge them without comparing them to previous games.

They're still shit.

I look at Heroes, I see a game with a potentially interesting gimmick that in practice ends up being frustrating, a fuckton of repeated levels to pad the length of the game, a horridly written half-assed excuse for a story, and random-ass bullshit deaths everywhere that I turn.

I look at ShtH, I see a cartoon character trying to act like a badass mutha fucka and failing horribly, nearly everything in the game is ugly as fuck, it's filled with missions that aren't fun and vehicles that are even less, and the entirety of the combat involves getting a gun and shooting repeatedly until the enemy is dead, with no meaningful variation.

I look at '06, I see a poorly programmed game with some of the most ridiculous load times I've ever seen, ridiculous trial-and-error/pray-you-get-lucky gameplay, features that are very clearly unfinished, mind-numbingly pointless town areas and the challenges within them, and more bullshit deaths.

I can keep going. I can do this for more games I hate. Hell, I can do this for games I like. And not once will I have to rely on "it's not Sonic" to call it a bad game. Stop using this made-up bullshit argument.

[Phos]

Funny, you're the LAST person I expected to hear that from. For most other people it's exactly the opposite - that Sonic games just need to be simple. Eh, must be classicfaggery getting to their heads.

The complexity in the controls is basically a series of band aid fixes to a bunch of problems that have been slowly introduced since Sonic Adventure 1. Sonic Unleashed's control scheme kind of reminds me of what you'd get it you were to give Virtua Fighter a six button control scheme: It makes it more complex but adds no real depth.

Diogenes: You're right.

[123654]

Also, those games aren't really Sonic Adventure 3. Yes, some of them used some elements of Adventure gameplay but none actually had Adventure gameplay from start 'til finish. There's always different gimmicks in all those games like the Werehog, guns, vehicle driving, team gameplay...all those kind of things. Because of that, it's not even Sonic Adventure 3.

Just like both Sonic Adventures.

[SuperStingray]

People keep saying this, but it's fucking wrong.

I can look at these games objectively. I can judge them without comparing them to previous games.

They're still shit.

I look at Heroes, I see a game with a potentially interesting gimmick that in practice ends up being frustrating, a fuckton of repeated levels to pad the length of the game, a horridly written half-assed excuse for a story, and random-ass bullshit deaths everywhere that I turn.

I look at ShtH, I see a cartoon character trying to act like a badass mutha fucka and failing horribly, nearly everything in the game is ugly as fuck, it's filled with missions that aren't fun and vehicles that are even less, and the entirety of the combat involves getting a gun and shooting repeatedly until the enemy is dead, with no meaningful variation.

I look at '06, I see a poorly programmed game with some of the most ridiculous load times I've ever seen, ridiculous trial-and-error/pray-you-get-lucky gameplay, features that are very clearly unfinished, mind-numbingly pointless town areas and the challenges within them, and more bullshit deaths.

I can keep going. I can do this for more games I hate. Hell, I can do this for games I like. And not once will I have to rely on "it's not Sonic" to call it a bad game. Stop using this made-up bullshit argument.

Tell me in all honesty that there isn't a single person on Earth who would make argument while replacing the words I bolded with their antonyms. Yes, I agree with your points on these games, and yes I agree that many of the new games can't stand on their own, but I don't really think it's possible to view a video game, or any work for that matter, so in depth from an objective standpoint. All the intelligence, cynicism or neutrality in the world doesn't make one's own interpretation any more or less valid, regardless of how poorly made or constructed the game is. No Sonic game has ever gotten a unanimous score from any reviewer, even if most agree that these titles are poor. But every individual has their own idiosyncratic interests, and if this is the sort of stuff they seek, who are you or I to say they're wrong?

Edited March 19, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Patticus]

I got tired of Sonic a few years ago (however I will keep track of upcoming games on the off chance they've learned their lesson), and altogether lost patience with Sonic Team not long thereafter. I can't even be bothered with the 'new' 2D handheld games they make, they're just too fast and don't play well at all...

*Sighs*

For my part, I freely admit that part of my indifference toward the series is the nostalgia thing (Sonic was my idol while I was growing up, those early games contain the fondest memories of any games I care to remember, surely it's only natural to want the (IMO!) glory years to return alongside 'new' material?), but there are other reasons; I suppose the biggy is that the gimmicks employed by the developers are looking and feeling increasingly bizarre and shoddily implemented, and they appear unaware that most would prefer a 2-4 hour return to form (which would at least prove they've still got the magic) than a 12 hour slog riddled with iffy gimmickry and shit design.

Sonic Team is always trying to go for the big all-encompassing comeback, but it's simply not up to it. To be honest, I'm not even sure if they could even do justice to the potential of the fabled 16-bit HD game; it's one thing to talk about it as if it would contain the same great features and level design as the older games, but I don't think the talent at Sonic Team's disposal is up to that challenge at all.

[ovarloard]

I started off with the newer games, and those were enough to find a fan in me... so for me, there's no way to go but up.

[Diogenes]

Tell me in all honesty that there isn't a single person on Earth who would make argument while replacing the words I bolded with their antonyms.

Honestly this is an argument that I just don't want to fight. Like what you like, hate what you hate, fight for what you want to fight for, I've gone beyond the point of caring, at least most of the time.

But that's all irrelevant to the point of my post. Whether the games are "objectively" bad/good or if people agree that they're bad/good, I don't care. I made that post in the hopes of killing the ridiculous argument that people only rate Sonic games poorly because they aren't the same as the Genesis games and that if they would rate the games "on their own merit" rather than how similar they are to S3&K, they'd realize that they're good. It's bullshit...not playing like the old games is one reason among many that these games get low ratings, and I'm tired of people deluding themselves into thinking the source of the Sonic "hate" is something so insane. I mean, if you're going to argue that this series is doing fine and the hate is baseless, at least take the time to understand the other side's arguments and make a sensible fucking point!

...though for the record I do insist that no sensible person can say '06's load times aren't ridiculous.

[DarkDefeater]

Man, this thread is making me depressed.

Personally, I don't believe Sonic is in as bad shape as a lot of people believe. Granted, he took some major hits with StH and 06 (I liked both games, btw), but overall, Sonic hasn't been that bad.

It hasn't been perfect, but IMO the other games have been good enough that I don't understand the negative attitude toward's sonic.

Unleashed was very polished, and I felt was a significant step in the right direction. SatBK, while having issues, seems to me to be a general improvement over SatSR.

To me, Sonic has been doing well on the 2d front as well. Some folks don't like the speed of some of the 2d games, but overall they are very good games.

Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I don't believe Sonid deserves the bad rep he's been getting.

Edited March 19, 2009 by DarkDefeater

[SuperStingray]

But that's all irrelevant to the point of my post. Whether the games are "objectively" bad/good or if people agree that they're bad/good, I don't care. I made that post in the hopes of killing the ridiculous argument that people only rate Sonic games poorly because they aren't the same as the Genesis games and that if they would rate the games "on their own merit" rather than how similar they are to S3&K, they'd realize that they're good. It's bullshit...not playing like the old games is one reason among many that these games get low ratings, and I'm tired of people deluding themselves into thinking the source of the Sonic "hate" is something so insane. I mean, if you're going to argue that this series is doing fine and the hate is baseless, at least take the time to understand the other side's arguments and make a sensible fucking point!

Oh, I completely agree. I was just pointing out that your definitions aren't what I would describe as objective.

But that said, I'm sure that to some people nostalgia may be an influence, conscious or not, but that can really come from both sides. I started on SA2:B, so my "nostalgia" is derived from that standard.

...though for the record I do insist that no sensible person can say '06's load times aren't ridiculous.

I said "tell me there isn't a single person" not "tell me there isn't a single sensible person." I just don't see any possible way to excuse those load times, but some people are overly forgiving.

Edited March 19, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Tornado]

This is a problem, in my opinion. Everyone is so obsessed with nostalgia and holding Sonic up to it that they refuse to view the games on their own merit.

My favorite game in the entire series is Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. And I still think everything made after Heroes is bullshit. Bullshit for somewhat different reasons (ShtH sucks in particular because its "Dark and Edgy," STH '06 sucks because it is literally half-finished, Unleashed sucks because it is F-Zero with shitty controls) but at the core they are all bad games regardless (for reasons Diogenes and Phos have already covered plenty of times). I could honestly say that I would think the same of Adventure 2 if that was released today.

I also think the games suck because they are nothing like the original games, but that is more because I think Sonic Team is now made up of lazy assholes who don't care anymore than it has to do with the games themselves.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Tornado

[Diogenes]

Oh, I completely agree. I was just pointing out that your definitions aren't what I would describe as objective.

My conclusions may not be objective, in the sense of based entirely on hard facts, but my initial mindset was, in the sense of not being based on my personal thoughts about the series.

[ArtFenix]

I don't lose my faith in Sonic, but what pisses me off is that in recent games there is NO character development! I loved the way Knuckles behaved in Sa and Sa2, but then he became stupid knucklehead as he is now. Tails's chcracter developed very good in Sa, but then he became nothing but just a clasic character. The same story with the others. And what i love about S06 is that actually there WAS character development! (I mean, Shadow, E-123 Omega, Eggman, Silver, Amy(she wasn't as stupid as she is in stupid unleashed). Sonic chronicles(and maybe Sonic rush/rush adventure) has very good character development and it is very good for me, but i would like to see C.D. in the main(canon)games(Well, i consider shronicles as a canon though).

Another thing is a storyline. S06 had a pretty good one, but unleashed's sucks even more, than SH's. Even dialoges are as stupid as hell.

The only thing i love in every Sonic game is CGI movies)))I adore them, i wish there were more of them like in S06(which has the most beautiful CGI for now).

And about gameplay..Unleashed's daytime stages are awesome without a doubt, but in my opinion it is some kind of boring just to hold one button and run)) Werehog sucks. Only if sonicteam could mix unleashed's daytime stages with Sa/Sa2/Shth/S06's style of gameplay with a lot of platforming...