Slipping away...

[SuperStingray]

It's still mediocre and lacking.

The only good thing about the story was Rosalina's history with the planet she was orbiting.

Most Mario games don't even need a storyline; they focus on gameplay and visual elements primarily. Outside of the RPGs and such, they just use the classic damsel in distress story because it's classic and it works. Same thing in Left 4 Dead- the whole story is intentionally a ripoff of almost every zombie movie ever made, but that's only because they wanted to use a classic framework and introduce gameplay elements to that. I could go on, but I won't.

In the Sonic games, it's not the "storyline" that makes the story itself so much as the characterization of the characters themselves and the world.

[DC111]

In my heart I know that if I wasn't such a big fan there is no way I'd pay for such a flawed and worthless game - but thats just it, I am a fan of Sonic. I truly believe everyone is deluded, for the "oldies" sit around and complain about how Sonic sucks these days, yet still buy the games, and the "newbies" claim "this is the best Sonic evaaaaa!" to every piece of shit Sonic game that comes out, no matter how horrendus is is (SatBK)

I don't understand what makes SatBK so horrendus. It's not a bad-quality game, so whether or not it's horrendus is a matter of opinion, I guess. From reading your post, I'm gathering that you don't like it because of the Arthurian-theme it has, which I can respect. On the same hand, though, you ALSO complained that all the Sonic games are the same lately and how they all end the same and have similar final bosses. So basically, what you're saying is: mainstream Sonic games = all the same = sucks. SatBK = something DIFFERENT = still sucks.

Honestly, they are forever changing the direction of Sonic that there is never time to develop him. The older games worked because they found an idea that was received well, and they added upon that idea with sequels and slight additions as they went. These days its all about the gimmicks; Sonic has an airboard, Sonic has a sword, Sonic is a werewolf, Sonic and pirates, Sonic storybooks, olympic crap, on and on and on, there is never any "core" Sonic gameplay because they change every game.

There has been 'core Sonic gameplay' in every game since the 'classics.' The Sonic Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 had Sonic racing through huge, varying environments with rings, dash panels, and springs. Sonic Unleashed did have the Werehog gimmick, but it STILL had core Sonic gameplay, with the speed and platforming we've all come to recognize. Riders was different, but keep in mind that it IS a spinoff.

These stories will usually have Sonic act so out of character its cheese level is of the highest level of cringeworthy, and those times where they actually remember Sonic was all about the attitude they miss the mark horribly, and we get some brain-melting turd of dialogue thats probably worse then the cheesy lines.

Dr.Robotnik/Eggman - the once competant villain of the series has been reduced to a laughing stock, a walking joke if you will. He either teams up with the good guys or loses out to previously mentioned generic doomsday monsters EVERY-FRICKEN-TIME! What happened to Sonic vs Eggman? Its dead.

Out of character? He's more in-character than he's ever been, if you ask me. This is one thing that I REALLY enjoyed about SatBK, and Unleashed, too. In the final level of SatBK, Sonic is definitely not out of character.

I can agree with what you're saying about Eggman. However, this too, has been going on since Sonic Adventure. I don't think that means Sonic vs Eggman is dead, though - you have to remember, Eggman is ALWAYS the one who brings the epic monster to life; he always plays a large role. Still, it would be nice to have him as the final boss once in a while, like in the Rush series.

[Phos]

I don't understand what makes SatBK so horrendus. It's not a bad-quality game, so whether or not it's horrendus is a matter of opinion, I guess.

It's a hack 'n slash where you can count your distinct attacks on one hand.

So basically, what you're saying is: mainstream Sonic games = all the same = sucks. SatBK = something DIFFERENT = still sucks.

That is the case. The "mainstream" games suck for using the same flawed conventions for years, the spin offs... just suck.

There has been 'core Sonic gameplay' in every game since the 'classics.'

No there hasn't. Read this site

Out of character? He's more in-character than he's ever been, if you ask me.

You anger me with this statement.

[Tornado]

There has been 'core Sonic gameplay' in every game since the 'classics.' The Sonic Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 had Sonic racing through huge, varying environments with rings, dash panels, and springs. Sonic Unleashed did have the Werehog gimmick, but it STILL had core Sonic gameplay, with the speed and platforming we've all come to recognize.

The 3D Sonic games haven't had "core Sonic gameplay" since the first Adventure. Any semblance to platforming that the old games had (or, indeed, the clever level design that allowed it) were tossed out the window starting with Sonic Adventure 2, and since then all of the games have followed the MOAR SPEED ethos commonly associated with Sonic Advance 2 in both gameplay design and level design, with the occasional Cheap Death Pit and/or Homing Attack Spam Chasm thrown in for variety.

All Unleashed did was perfect that gameplay style by fixing the 7-year-old control problems, 5-year-old physics engine problems and 9-year-old glitch fest problems; and then add an absurdly spammable boost button with nigh-infinite reserves. While not a bad gameplay style by itself in my opinion (my favorite game is Adventure 2), anyone who says the games post-Adventure 1 games are anything like the 2D games before Sonic Advance 2 has missed the point of the original games by a nautical mile. The original games were fairly nonlinear platformers designed with level design allowing you to get up to high speeds, usually only if you had skill. Everything post-Adventure have been time trial racing games funneled down a single path, usually with fake difficulty added to give the game some challenge.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Tornado

[ovarloard]

Everything post-Adventure have been time trial racing games funneled down a single path, usually with fake difficulty added to give the game some challenge.

Werehog?

That is the case. The "mainstream" games suck for using the same flawed conventions for years, the spin offs... just suck.

That's opinion which you're trying to pass of as fact.

You anger me with this statement.

How so? It's easy to put out a claim with no evidence to support it.

[Tornado]

Werehog?

That's true. I did forget to mention the gimmicks.

That being said, I'm starting to wonder whether the word gimmick actually applies in some cases. Certainly when it came to Unleashed the Werehog bits commonly associated with the gimmick role were at least as fleshed out as the normal gameplay itself.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Tornado

[Phos]

Werehog? -- Why would you use this as an argument in support of newer games?

That's opinion which you're trying to pass of as fact. -- Game is fun. Makers of game removes what made game fun. Game is not fun, Q.E.D.

How so? It's easy to put out a claim with no evidence to support it.

So now I have to provide evidence for my emotions? Whatever, I have some time to kill:

New Sonic acts like Wayne (Wayne's world), overly verbose about nothing. (I came up with this analogy when I realized that I could imagine New Sonic unironically air guitaring)

Old Sonic, something that I have numerous fond memories of as well as more recent discoveries of it's debth and brilliance, acted more like Steve McQueen. Saying that being like Wayne is how he's supposed to be makes me angry. Honestly, I kind of want an apology, DC111.

[ovarloard]

That's true. I did forget to mention the gimmicks.

That being said, I'm starting to wonder whether the word gimmick actually applies in some cases. Certainly when it came to Unleashed the Werehog bits commonly associated with the gimmick role were at least as fleshed out as the normal gameplay itself.

Werehog makes up more than half the game. Heck, it's more prominently displayed on the front cover than normal Sonic, i.e. it's easier to notice his Werehog side.

Game is fun. Makers of game removes what made game fun.

Still opinion. It's not fact that the game isn't fun. That's opinion.

Sonic still sells well. If Sonic games truly sucked, SEGA wouldn't be selling so many games.

Heck, I like the newer games!

New Sonic acts like Wayne (Wayne's world), overly verbose about nothing. (I came up with this analogy when I realized that I could imagine New Sonic unironically air guitaring)

Old Sonic, something that I have numerous fond memories of as well as more recent discoveries of it's debth and brilliance, acted more like Steve McQueen.

Barring the original few games, each of which has a shell of a story, what game with a story doesn't have Sonic "overly verbose about nothing"?

And SteveMcQueen was more of an anti-hero. He and Sonic couldn't be more different. Sonic's not nearly as vengeful as Steve was, for one.

Edited March 22, 2009 by OvErLoRd Darkspine

[Phos]

Werehog makes up more than half the game. Heck, it's more prominently displayed on the front cover than normal Sonic, i.e. it's easier to notice his Werehog side.

That's a major problem unto itself. Unleashed was basically "Sonic the Werehog" with occasional speedy sojourns. And those weren't very good either.

what game with a story doesn't have Sonic "overly verbose about nothing"?

The ones on the Genesis/Sega CD.

Sonic still sells well. If Sonic games truly sucked, SEGA wouldn't be selling so many games.

But the old games sold better. Sonic 1 made Sega from an also-ran into a contender. newer Sonic games have done the opposite.

[ovarloard]

That's a major problem unto itself. Unleashed was basically "Sonic the Werehog" with occasional speedy sojourns. And those weren't very good either.

I didn't say they were good.

But the old games sold better. Sonic 1 made Sega from an also-ran into a contender. newer Sonic games have done the opposite.

First, the failure of the Saturn as a console before Sonic X-Treme was released and when NiGHTS was out led to SEGA's downfall. Secondly, while all the Sonic fans are clamoring for a "retro reboot", a la Mega Man, there's no guarantee the larger audiences nowadays will go for it, when there are all sorts of other more advanced games competing for sales. The unexperienced people may go for the other games, thinking Sonic is a kiddy game, and one that is old (and boring for modern standards) at that. I don't think SEGA wants that.

They knew the classic games sold better. They most likely would have tried the retro reboot strategy if not for the reasons listed above.

[Tornado]

Secondly, while all the Sonic fans are clamoring for a "retro reboot", a la Mega Man, there's no guarantee the larger audiences nowadays will go for it, when there are all sorts of other more advanced games competing for sales.

Sonic Advance sold pretty well, and that was for all intents and purposes Sonic 4. Not to mention Mega Man 9, Bionic Commando, 1942, Street Fighter 2, Space Invaders, etc. The majority of the gaming populace doesn't need to go for a retro-style game to make money, and such games clearly do because there are whole assloads of them on all three systems.

[ovarloard]

Sonic Advance sold pretty well, and that was for all intents and purposes Sonic 4. Not to mention Mega Man 9, Bionic Commando, 1942, Street Fighter 2, Space Invaders, etc. The majority of the gaming populace doesn't need to go for a retro-style game to make money, and such games clearly do because there are whole assloads of them on all three systems.

Sonic Advance isn't retro, or even retro-styled. The only thing retro about it is the 2D. It's similarly styled to Advance 2, though admittedly, Advance 2 was a lot faster. Neither focuses as much on exploration as the originals did.

Either way, SEGA doesn't seem to want to do anything about it, except for releasing remakes (like in Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection). They hand the 2D games off to Dimps. Problem is, Dimps can make 2D games, and fun ones at that, but they can't make it like the old Sonic Team did.

They did pretty well on the Sonic Unleashed Wii daytime stages, tho.

Edited March 22, 2009 by OvErLoRd Darkspine

[Phos]

First, the failure of the Saturn as a console before Sonic X-Treme was released and when NiGHTS was out led to SEGA's downfall. Secondly, while all the Sonic fans are clamoring for a "retro reboot", a la Mega Man, there's no guarantee the larger audiences nowadays will go for it, when there are all sorts of other more advanced games competing for sales. The unexperienced people may go for the other games, thinking Sonic is a kiddy game, and one that is old (and boring for modern standards) at that. I don't think SEGA wants that.

The Saturn was screwed over in America by terrible marketing, poor launch games, and a high price point. There was also that whole fake release date thing that royally screwed western third parties. In Japan, it outsold the N64. If the Saturn had been as much a failure as people make it out to be, there would have been no Dreamcast. Ironically, the kind of games Sega was releasing on the DC would probably be massive sellers noways, in a period where games are having a hard time standing out.

They sure went for Megaman 9. Honestly, Sonic and Megaman are so similar in certain respects (both were thought to be bad ideas by the parent companies, both made major waves, both started having crappy games on consoles with flawed but at least playible handheld games) That I can't imagine it not working.

And you had better not have just called the classic Sonic games boring. Them's fightin' words.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And you had better not have just called the classic Sonic games boring. Them's fightin' words.

He said boring to "modern standard", meaning those who weren't around during Sonic's earlier years.

And it really all depends on the person playing the games.

Let's say that we have someone next to two Sonic games: Sonic 3 & Knuckles right next to a game like Sonic Unleashed. The guy's never played or heard of a Sonic game, so it really depends on how they attract one to each other. In this day and age, anything 3D will have a bit more of an advantage because of the extra dimension they utilize. But that doesn't mean 3D will automatically win, they might go for the old-school version instead.

I don't think any work has a modern standard, it just depends on who it attracts.

[Dreadknux]

Sonic Advance isn't retro, or even retro-styled. The only thing retro about it is the 2D. It's similarly styled to Advance 2, though admittedly, Advance 2 was a lot faster. Neither focuses as much on exploration as the originals did.

Didn't focus on exploration? Did you even look?

Sonic Advance is actually more true to the retro style than you might think. Just because it has different sprites and a new look doesn't remove the fact that the branching level design, perfect inertia/speed, valuable speed-oriented stage gimmicks and forgiving, accessible and fun gameplay (with nary a bottomless pit) mirrors a Mega Drive title almost identically. In terms of execution and by sheer design.

Now if you had said Sonic Advance 2, 3 or the Sonic Rush series...

[SuperStingray]

You anger me with this statement.

As far as gameplay goes, he's definately out of "character" but he's far more in character in personality than he's ever been, at least since SA1.

Game is fun. Makers of game removes what made game fun. Game is not fun, Q.E.D.

Halo is fun. Makers of Halo remove FPS elements and replace them with RTS elements. Game is fun.

Just because the elements that made a game fun in the first place aren't reused persistently doesn't mean the game can't be fun for different reasons.

Edited March 22, 2009 by SuperStingray

[The-Master-Board]

I concur dude. In fact, I wish I read this eariler beforehand cause I made a similar post in a new topic. http://www.sonicstadium.org/board/index.php?showtopic=407

That being said, you certainly deserve a standing ovation for detailing the real issues with the recent games.

Glad to see the long rant wasn't wasted then . Thats why I always (when able) try and read all posts in the topic before posting; cuz usually someone out there has already said what I want to say.

It is a shame that people are slipping away, but I find it more a shame that so many people think the series is fine, or even great as it is. I put alot of it down to fans just being..well - fanatical and blinded by that, or newer fans not knowing any better.

But as far as I'm concerned these are the major issues, and if not addressed Sonic is unfortunately going to wallow in the stagnant sorry state he's currently in until they pull their heads in.

But Sonic (good or more prominantly BAD) equals money for SEGA, and the choice between do something to make the series better or be lazy and make the same amount of money (cuz fans lap up anything no matter how bad) is really an easy choice for them.

But thats a different argument altogether.

[CreamyBagel]

But Sonic (good or more prominantly BAD) equals money for SEGA, and the choice between do something to make the series better or be lazy and make the same amount of money (cuz fans lap up anything no matter how bad) is really an easy choice for them.

I don't think SEGA would want to see Sonic fall flat on his face. I also don't think fans want to see that happen which is why they search for good points in seemingly bad games. I know I do.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't think SEGA would want to see Sonic fall flat on his face. I also don't think fans want to see that happen which is why they search for good points in seemingly bad games. I know I do.

I pretty much only bought into the "Modern Sonic is irredemable garbage" meme because I was worried after 06 that Sonic would eventually stop selling in the near future.

I've been greatly comforted by the restaffing of Sonic Team, the release of Unleashed and Black Knight, and Sega's seeming uncharacteristic openness in letting Bioware make a Sonic game.

[ovarloard]

I've been greatly comforted by the restaffing of Sonic Team, the release of Unleashed and Black Knight, and Sega's seeming uncharacteristic openness in letting Bioware make a Sonic game.

Their openness might just be the result of SEGA not wanting to screw up another spinoff, but you never know...

Sonic Advance is actually more true to the retro style than you might think. Just because it has different sprites and a new look doesn't remove the fact that the branching level design, perfect inertia/speed, valuable speed-oriented stage gimmicks and forgiving, accessible and fun gameplay (with nary a bottomless pit) mirrors a Mega Drive title almost identically. In terms of execution and by sheer design.

This is a link to the level map of Emerald Hill in Sonic 2.

This is a level map for Neo Green Hill in Advance.

True, there is the branching level design, but I'd have to say Advance was actually slower than Sonic 2, especially with the running shoe power up. All it did in Advance was increase your acceleration to the maximum speed, but in Sonic 2, it increased your maximum speed. Advance has many more straightaways and hills to run straight down (or rails to grind on), while Sonic 2 requires a lot more precise platforming or timing.

[Phos]

As far as gameplay goes, he's definately out of "character" but he's far more in character in personality than he's ever been, at least since SA1.

No he isn't, that's why it angered me.

Halo is fun. Makers of Halo remove FPS elements and replace them with RTS elements. Game is fun.

Just because the elements that made a game fun in the first place aren't reused persistently doesn't mean the game can't be fun for different reasons.

They got rid of so much and didn't replace it with anything.

[SuperStingray]

No he isn't, that's why it angered me.

Once again, double yes. Bam. Countered. If you don't have a real argument, how can I take you seriously?

They got rid of so much and didn't replace it with anything.

What are you talking about? There's treasure hunting; shooting; Werehogs- they're not necessarily good things, at least to many, but they're there.

[Phos]

Once again, double yes. Bam. Countered. If you don't have a real argument, how can I take you seriously?

Ok, lets compare:

Sonic CD, bad ending: Sonic sees Eggman escaping on some kind of flying... thing. He immediately (He doesn't even hesitate) grabs a rock and uses a spin charge to throw it at an absurd speed and shoot him down (this is... the coolest thing Sonic has ever done)

Sonic Adventure: "I'LL NAIL THAT EGGMAN!"

What are you talking about? There's treasure hunting; shooting; Werehogs- they're not necessarily good things, at least to many, but they're there.

Talking about Sonic's gameplay here. If they can't get that right, they shouldn't be wasting time on anything else.

[SuperStingray]

Ok, lets compare:

Sonic CD, bad ending: Sonic sees Eggman escaping on some kind of flying... thing. He immediately (He doesn't even hesitate) grabs a rock and uses a spin charge to throw it at an absurd speed and shoot him down (this is... the coolest thing Sonic has ever done)

Sonic Adventure: "I'LL NAIL THAT EGGMAN!"

Okay, let me break it down like this:

Sonic 1 and 2: A simple story of a hero taking down a villain. Sonic's only real character is his attitude and even that really isn't very evident.

Sonic CD: That scene you mentioned was pretty awesome, but it's not a display of character so much as of ability.

Sonic 3&K: Same idea as 1 and 2, but he shows he is willing to put aside rivalry for the greater good.

Sonic Adventure: The first real sign of Sonic's true values. He's a not only a hero but an optimist and a sympathizer. He forgives Chaos and he still has his mind on adventure, even with the city in ruins. He also shows that same "lesser of two evils" idea that was present in S3&K when he realizes that Chaos is the true threat. Plus, he shows more of a brotherly relationship with Tails.

Sonic Advance Series: Nothing really.

Sonic Adventure 2: Similar to his Sonic Adventure characterization but it's sort of hurt by his aggression in this game.

Sonic Battle: Sonic shows a closer relationship to the other characters of the cast. He also shows more emotion which I really like. But he's still underplayed in favor of Emerl.

Sonic Heroes: Completely shallow and cliched and very little development.

Sonic Rush Series: Not much character is shown so much as plot, but Sonic does have certain moments that give him a good relationship with Blaze.

Shadow the Hedgehog: Sonic is under played, but his character is hurt because they make him look like a wimp to make Shadow look stronger.

Sonic Riders: Jet makes a great rival for Sonic in that he brings out his competitive spirit that really isn't seen enough.

Sonic Rivals Series: Similar to Rush, more emphasis on plot that character.

Sonic 06: Once again, completely shallow and cliched. And not to mention a Gary Stu. An overall butcher of his character to say the least.

Secret Rings: Actually one of Sonic's better characterizations. He takes no prisoners with his threats and sympathy to his friends. The scenes with the pinky swear and the tissues, though, felt a bit too Sonic 06-ish.

Sonic Unleashed: Not only is Sonic a real badass in certain scenes, but he realizes that even he has his flaws and limits. Plus, his relationship with Chip is not only good old-fashion slapstick, but Chip was a great foil in that he made Sonic seem both simple by comparison and serious by contrast.

Black Knight: This game shows the crux of Sonic's ideologies and the depth and determination associated with him.

Talking about Sonic's gameplay here. If they can't get that right, they shouldn't be wasting time on anything else.

If that's what you meant then I agree.

[Phos]

My issues with Black Knight's characterization stem more from specific tone and wording than motivation. And unintentional innuendos. Can't forget about them.

Sonic Battle's premise (at least in Sonic's story) seems to be, "What if all the Sonic characters had anger management problems?". Then there the matter of the plot:

Tails: Sonic, this robot destroyed an entire civilization

Sonic: Let's give it Chaos Emeralds!

One thing though...

The first time I heard Jet's voice my reaction was "Are you serious?". It sounds like a voice someone would give him in order to make fun of him.