Does the time plot in Sonic06 work?

[XavierRussell]

I was just thinking about this for some reason. Is there something wrong with it or am I just crazy?

On a side note, what was with Mephiles' lack of a mouth? Should I even be thinking about this game? >.> i don't wanna end up trying to play it again.

[Tori Himemiya]

Everyone is gonna say everything is wrong. :/ But I guess there is. Because Omega seems to know about what happens to Shadow in the future. And yet he really isn't used to fight aganist Solaris in the future so hmmm....

Oh and Mephiles I guess somewhat took Shadow's form but it's not complete for some reason. But we don't know.

[Dr. Good Girl]

Keep in mind Sonic 06 was a rushed game also.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Dr. Good Girl

[Kamicciolo]

Everyone is gonna say everything is wrong. :/ But I guess there is. Because Omega seems to know about what happens to Shadow in the future. And yet he really isn't used to fight aganist Solaris in the future so hmmm....

That actually brings up the of how Omega could be the one to seal Shadow if he (seemingly) goes into Stand-By and only just wakes up to help Shadow in his battle with Mephiles. Did someone get him up and running then he remembered he had a mission to do and went back to sleep? or was Mephiles was just messing with him or something.

[Diogenes]

I think my biggest complaint about the mechanics of '06's plot (as opposed to the actual story) is that time travel doesn't have consistent results.

On one hand, you've got the lab disaster 10 years in the past. The time travel events connected to this show that you can't change the past, that what Shadow and Silver did was inevitable. When Mephiles was released from the scepter he recognized Shadow, because Shadow would eventually go back in time and seal him in it. And when Elise first sees Sonic she's reminded of Silver, because she vaguely remembers Silver from 10 years ago (and all hedgehogs look alike, apparently).

On the other hand, when Sonic goes back in time to save Elise from the Egg Carrier 3 (does that thing have an actual name?) after failing the first time, he is able to change the past to save her. And it's not just that it only looked like he failed, but 5-minutes-in-the-future Sonic actually did save her; when the heroes were sent to the future earlier in the story, they found records that stated that Elise did die when Eggman's ship exploded. The ending of the game also shows history being changed, where blowing out the flame erases the entire adventure.

It can't go both ways. I know, chances are, they were more interested in having fun with a time travel story than keeping things internally consistent, but, well, that's the problem.

That actually brings up the of how Omega could be the one to seal Shadow if he (seemingly) goes into Stand-By and only just wakes up to help Shadow in his battle with Mephiles. Did someone get him up and running then he remembered he had a mission to do and went back to sleep? or was Mephiles was just messing with him or something.

From Omega's point of view, he hasn't done it yet. Not long after Rouge sends Omega off to sleep for 200 years, he returns from the future with Shadow, and from here, another X years down the road, he helps to seal Shadow. Edited January 11, 2010 by Diogenes

[Kamicciolo]

On the other hand, when Sonic goes back in time to save Elise from the Egg Carrier 3 (does that thing have an actual name?) after failing the first time, he is able to change the past to save her. And it's not just that it only looked like he failed, but 5-minutes-in-the-future Sonic actually did save her; when the heroes were sent to the future earlier in the story, they found records that stated that Elise did die when Eggman's ship exploded. The ending of the game also shows history being changed, where blowing out the flame erases the entire adventure.

Is it possible that Sonic saving Elise could an exception, which was what created the Paradox where Mephiles and Iblis merge into Solaris and the entire thing has to be reset? Or does that theory not hold

From Omega's point of view, he hasn't done it yet. Not long after Rouge sends Omega off to sleep for 200 years, he returns from the future with Shadow, and from here, another X years down the road, he helps to seal Shadow.

I'm not all that certain, but didn't Omega act as though he had already done it to the Shadow in the future timeline?

[Diogenes]

Is it possible that Sonic saving Elise could an exception, which was what created the Paradox where Mephiles and Iblis merge into Solaris and the entire thing has to be reset? Or does that theory not hold

The laws of nature do not make exceptions like that. If it was internally consistent, and the bit about Silver and Shadow was true, then there should have been no way for Sonic to change the past in the first place...it wouldn't create a paradox, it simply would not be possible.

I'm not all that certain, but didn't Omega act as though he had already done it to the Shadow in the future timeline?

When Mephy reveals that Omega was designed to stop Shadow, he says "don't tell me you didn't know". And when Omega tells Shadow, he doesn't say he defeated Shadow, but that he's the one that defeats him.

[XavierRussell]

I knew something was up. The story messed up Blaze for me too. Connecting her to Silver and iblis was just lame IMO. If those 2 were from the same time, than shouldn't Blaze be the one hunting down Sonic? She can transform after all! I also hated how she didn't know Sonic from the Rush games. If she did, she could've explained to Silver he was a decent fellow =.=

[JaidynReiman]

I think its not so much that Omega knows that he's going to defeat Shadow in the future, but that he knew he was created to defeat Shadow. And its true; Eggman created Omega to defeat Shadow, in case Shadow were to ever escape. Omega is then reminded by Mephiles that he was destined to defeat Shadow.

[XavierRussell]

I think its not so much that Omega knows that he's going to defeat Shadow in the future, but that he knew he was created to defeat Shadow. And its true; Eggman created Omega to defeat Shadow, in case Shadow were to ever escape. Omega is then reminded by Mephiles that he was destined to defeat Shadow.

So why was it that Omega went on a Eggman hating kick then? i never got that. Rouge stopped the two from fighting and then they were just buddy buddy...

[Diogenes]

So why was it that Omega went on a Eggman hating kick then?

Because Eggman locked him in a room and abandoned him. Omega's got quite an ego; he can't stomach not being the strongest robot, so he decides to go smash up everything else Eggman's made (and maybe Eggman himself) to prove that he was too awesome to just be left behind.

[XavierRussell]

Because Eggman locked him in a room and abandoned him. Omega's got quite an ego; he can't stomach not being the strongest robot, so he decides to go smash up everything else Eggman's made (and maybe Eggman himself) to prove that he was too awesome to just be left behind.

But he did end up abandoning his orders right?

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Let's not forget the horrible causal paradoxes either:

• Perhaps the most infamous '06 paradox is that of Silver, Elise, and the Blue Emerald. In Sonic's opening sequence, Elise is implied to have had the Blue Emerald for many years stuck in her fancy platinum necklace, which should already set alarm bells ringing. But as we proceed through the game, Elise loses the Emerald and it is (eventually) picked up in White Acropolis by Silver, who takes it 10 years into the past, to Aquatic Base, and gives it to Young Elise there. This is, therefore, two paradoxes in one:
  
• For one, if (as implied) the Blue Emerald has been with Elise all the 10 years between Silver giving it to her and Elise losing it during Robotnik's attack during the Festival of the Sun, then this means it wasn't in Sonic's posession all the times he went Super. Little things like S3&K's Doomsday Zone... Perfect Chaos... Finalhazard... Metal Overlord... all rendered impossible. If anything, after handing the Emerald to Young Elise and returning to the present, Silver should have hopped out not in Soleanna but perhaps in Robo-Soleanna, Eggman having killed off Sonic and conquered the world several times over without the power of Super Sonic to thwart him.
  
• And an ontological paradox for the Blue Emerald, in that it is stuck in an infinite, closed loop. Elise has the Emerald, it later winds up in Silver's hands (via Sonic and White Acropolis), and Silver travels back in time and gives it to Elise. The Emerald comes from nowhere (i.e. it never enters the loop) and goes to nowhere (never exits the loop), just repeating the cycle over and over again. If the Emerald had been something mundane... like, say, an ordinary jewel, this process would be self-solving simply by wear-and-tear. Every time the Emerald repeats the cycle, the object itself ages by 10 years; and it must repeat the cycle an infinite number of times. Infinity x10 years is ample time for even a diamond to wear down to dust and thus break the cycle, but with Chaos Emeralds I'm not so sure this would work...?
  
• But Silver in fact does something worse in the same sequence where he gives Elise the Blue Emerald, in that he steals the Grey Emerald. This is the one that the Duke used to seal Iblis inside Elise, and Silver takes it with him when he jumps from 10-years-in-the-past back to the present. Thus meaning there was no Grey Emerald around for the intervening 10 years. At least the Blue Emerald was still in the world, ableit riding Elise's cleavage instead of saving the planet from Robotnik's tyrrany. Silver removes the Grey Emerald altogether for those 10 years, so again no Doomsday Zone, no Perfect Chaos vs. Super Sonic, Finalhazard, Metal Overlord, yadda yadda.
  
• Mephiles and Shadow's feud is also like this. In Kingdom Valley, Shadow is attacked by Mephs, who recognises him despite Shadow never having seen Mephiles before. Shadow's subsequent vengeful pursuit of Mephiles leads him to travel back in time (with Silver) and meet Mephiles in the past. Here it's Shadow and Mephiles' mutual antagonism which apparently has no origin. Mephiles only attacked Shadow because Shadow attacked Mephiles in the past; but Shadow only travelled to the past because Mephiles attacked him in the present.
  

[Phos]

One thing that always seemed wierd to me was how all the characters important to the story are also arbitrarily saved from the effects of time compression.

Edit: The Doomsday Zone wouldn't have happened, but it wasn't neccesaey to Robotnik's defeat. Perfect Chaos wouldn't be a problem because he requires all seven emeralds to be anything but a pushover, the Biolizard wouldn't have been woken up because doing so requires all seven emeralds, and Metal Overlord likely wouldn't have happened due to Chaos still being around and Shadow having never being able to enact his plan. Black Doom would have no means or incentive to bring the comet close to earth during these ten years.

Wait, the Doomsday Zone happened well before 1996, they wouldn't have affected that. What's funny is that if they did keep the Doomsday Zone from happening, that would explain why Knuckles is just kind of there, he's forced off the island if you don't get all the emeralds. Needless to say, the events at the end of Sonic 06 revert the timeline to what it was before... Or you could stop resisting and admit that there were probably several sets of emeralds at one point.

What I'm more annoyed by is the implication that you can just break up a set of emeralds like that without them doing anything.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Phos

[XavierRussell]

Frozen Nitrogen...You just blew my mind.

[Vertekins]

What I always wondered is how Sonic and Elise part after Elise blows out the Solaris flame. The end of the cutscene is an ambigous one because it just fades to black quickly. If it's the emerald's doing it in response to their wish granting i.e Elise wishes to cleanse her father's sin and the emeralds let her by warping her into the past to blow out the source of the Duke's sin which is the flame, then is it the emeralds that re-configured time and made sure that Sonic and Elise never meet? Is it the emeralds that instigated the whole 'Wipe Sonic '06's happenings out of time' in granting Elises' wish and thenceforth it is their power that enabled Sonic and Elise to apparently/imply to have vague memories of each other in that last cutscene even though they never met in the scenario in the last cutscene?

I don't understand this whole thing concerning Solaris vs the Chaos Emeralds wish granting ability.

Let me explain.

I always thought that when Elise wishes Sonic back to life, she also wishes to cleanse her fathers sin. The source of her fathers sin was Solaris right? It has to be Solaris as the flame because the Duke only encountered Solaris as a flame during his life and his 'sin' presumably was tampering with this flame.

So Sonic returns to life, Solaris has his conciousness destroyed and Sonic and Elise get thrown into the past. But what I don't get is this; In the cutscene that shows Sonic and Elise floating in the void alone together, there is what looks like billowing white flames and Sonic notes that this is the true Solaris. They both 'mingle' with 'true Solaris' and presumably warp into the past. What I wonder is this; Is it the Emeralds that produced the white flame-like thing in response to Elises' wish to cleanse her father's sin? Or are the emeralds totally irrelevent despite the fact Elise made a wish on them and it is in fact Solaris' true form that was responsible for taking them back in time?

I don't understand why the emeralds didn't fulfill her wish if the white flame is Solaris. Unless the emeralds as part of their wish-granting are forcing Solaris' true form to use it's omnipotence over time to warp Sonic and Elise into the past to erase the source of the Duke's sin. Which is Solaris as the flame. What complicates matters further is that how can Solaris have accomplished time travel/omnipotence in time if the 3 super hedgehogs annihilated his conciousness? By destroying his conciousness surely that must mean that he's been rendered in such a way that he effectively has no thought processes, or effectively no 'brain'. Unless Solaris' time omnipotence is so great that it is an intrinsic part of his nature and therefore endures even after having his conciousness destroyed.

[Semi-colon e]

Also if Sonic saved Elise, would Silver's future still exist? Or would it be doomed when Elise finally dies as she surely couldn't live for 200 years?

Though I have many issues with Sonic 06's story, but mainly the fact that SONIC HAS NO RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER AND GETS BEATEN UP ALL THE TIME! Yeah, good one, have a game called Sonic the Hedgehog where Sonic is the most poorly treated character.

They just try and accomodate the other character's stories and make Sonic irrelevant. Oh well, it never happened.

Also is it supposed to be implied that at the end Sonic actually remembers? He seems pretty keen to see Elise one last time, and if she's familiar with him to a degree, then he remembers surely, especially in the last (stunning) shots where Sonic smiles and the feather goes up to the moon.

EDIT: Actually, most of the levels have no real relevance whatsoever. Sonic's Wave Ocean was pointless as they failed, half of Silver's levels are just FIND SAWNICK LOL, and many of Shadow's levels are just FOLLOW MEPHILES!

I want an updated/finished version of this game! It could have been so incredible, you can see it in the levels sometimes.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Semi-colon e

[Frozen Nitrogen]

EDIT: Actually, most of the levels have no real relevance whatsoever. Sonic's Wave Ocean was pointless as they failed, half of Silver's levels are just FIND SAWNICK LOL, and many of Shadow's levels are just FOLLOW MEPHILES!

I actually liked this aspect. While I suspect it was an unintended result of shoddy story planning more than anything else, the fact that several levels don't actually achieve anything (Tails' solo Wave Ocean is an even worse offender than Sonic's for utter-uselessness) is a welcome change from the "everything the heroes try succeeds" cliche.

I don't understand this whole thing concerning Solaris vs the Chaos Emeralds wish granting ability.

Relevant ending vid.

Did Elise actually wish on a Chaos Emerald to undo her father's mistakes? I don't recall (or see) that, and the Chaos Emeralds were occupied in sustaining the Super forms for the duration of the Solaris battle...

My take on the '06 ending was that Sonic and Elise didn't actually physically go back in time at all. Mostly because, as Eggman states, that wouldn't work on Solaris. Solaris is transcendental, so blowing him out in the past does nothing because he's still there in the present and future.

The End Of The World is outside the normal flow of time as it is. Looking at the video we see that The Duke and Young Elise's conversation in front of the flame is all in weird sepia-tone, a screwy effect that doesn't occur when the hedgehogs to real, manly time travelling during the story.

I think it's more a case of them sharing a piece of Solaris' memory, as the demigod is literally haemohrraging his thoughts and consciousness into the timeless void (this being the whole point of the final battle). And what with being a transcendental being that exists outside time, screwing around with Solaris' "memory" of the "past" is equivalent to screwing around with Solaris' "actuality" in the "present" (and, indeed, "destiny" in the "future").

So Elise blowing out the flame isn't so much her changing the past, but rather booting him out of the normal-time world altogether now that he's calmed down. Which looks like changing the past, but... isn't quite.

TL;DR: End of the World is outside time so they can do whatever the hell they want!!1!

Edited January 11, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Teoleulbogo]

The whole plot sounded like a bad fan-fic.

[Icecoldfrieza]

I haven't read through the whole topic yet, but I think it goes like this:

Timeline 1: We don't see the events of this timeline. Presumably, no time travel occurs, Elise is killed aboard the Egg Carrier. Iblis is released. Omega seals Shadow away, Mephiles meets Silver and Blaze and takes them to Timeline 2. Mephiles creates a new timeline in order to change certain events so he can fuse with Iblis (this isn't stated, but it had to have happened or else he would be doomed to fail).

Timeline 2: Everything shown in the game occurs. Omega goes into standy mode for 200 years instead of sealing Shadow away. Sonic, Shadow and the others are transported 200 years in the future, but still in Timeline 2, and eventually get back to the present. Shadow and Silver seal Mephiles and Iblis respectively in the past. Sonic ends up saving Elise. Then finally, the last story occurs.

Note that the only time a new timeline is created is when Mephiles transports Silver and Blaze to the past. Time traveling by any other means will go to a different point in the same timeline. Mephiles did not create another timeline when leaving Flame Core because there was no need to.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Icecoldfrieza