Devil's Advocate: Sonic Unleashed is MUCH better then Sonic Adventure

[Marcello]

I think Adventure is much better than Unleashed. SU was good, but it was too fast and was more about just going forwards. SA had stuff like lost world, where you would slow down and have stuff like the Snake in the water while you have to push switches, or the wall walking parts or the dark cave when you have to point the lights to the mirrors.

I liked the different gameplay styles more, too. They were all really fun. Werehog was too much fighting. The music made me want to shoot myself after a while x.x

Edited January 13, 2010 by MarcelloF

[XavierRussell]

I think Adventure is much better than Unleashed. SU was good, but it was too fast and was more about just going forwards. SA had stuff like lost world, where you would slow down and have stuff like the Snake in the water while you have to push switches, or the wall walking parts or the dark cave when you have to point the lights to the mirrors.

I liked the different gameplay styles more, too. They were all really fun. Werehog was too much fighting. The musci made me want to shoot myself after a while x.x

I agree with you on the werehogs battle theme. You could barely ever hear the level music :/

[Guest]

......Never played 360/ps3...Go play them and then tell me SA is better. Seriously. And whats with the love of adventure fields!? Big empty spaces! that's all!

I just don't like Sonic (the character that is) and I'm not buying a 360 for one game.

Thats just it. People don't want sonic with a drastically different gameplay style. And since Knux is a member of the Triple Threat (lolz) no one would've complained.

Then tell me why no one seems to like games that have Knuckles in them.

[XavierRussell]

I just don't like Sonic (the character that is) and I'm not buying a 360 for one game.

Then tell me why no one seems to like games that have Knuckles in them.

Sonic 3 & Knux is considered the best of the classics. As far as the 3D ones go, knuckles is alwaysdone badly I'd say he was best in heroes, where he was useful and could kill everything easily. He sucked and was glitchy in 06 and he sucked in SA1. his stages were way too big in sa2.

[Marcello]

I had fun with Knuckles in SA and SA2. I didn't like him in Heroes. He always killed me when I was punching near a cliff..

[Guest]

Sonic 3 & Knux is considered the best of the classics. As far as the 3D ones go, knuckles is alwaysdone badly I'd say he was best in heroes, where he was useful and could kill everything easily. He sucked and was glitchy in 06 and he sucked in SA1. his stages were way too big in sa2.

I don't count S3&K because everyone and their dog likes it (Except me again) and your other points are what I meant, No one likes Knuckles anymore, and if he was in SU, it wouldn't be any different.

But I think it's all opinion, I liked Knux in SA1 and SA2, I didn't like Heroes at all, and he was too slow in 06.

[Scott]

What is wrong with you guys! How could you possibly say SA1 is a better game than unleashed?? (PS3/360)

Plot

Ok, yea the plot's are basically the same, except Unleashed gave Sonic a new transformation. Nothing too mind blowing, but it was enjoyable and I didn't have an issue with it. What i did have an issue with was the "subplots" in SA. By giving Tails his "independence" He's become nothing more than the mechanic, and barely does anything anymore. They didn't have to make him SO independent that he never does any field work anymore. Big's story was a waste of time, and even to this day his character is still useless. I'm surprised Bioware was able to make him somewhat acceptable. Knuckles was poorly executed and was just "GOTTACATCHEMALL! EMERALDSTHATIS! LOLZ OH NOES TRICKEDAGAINDOWNTHELINE!" Gamma was alright, and Amy could've been cut. We really didn't need to play as her to get what she was doing.

Gameplay:

This is where Unleashed DESTROYS SA. All you guys are saying that the platforming was better in SA, when that's just stupid. Stop thinking of platforming in the "old" sense of simply jumping on platform a,b, and c to reach platform d. Unleashed took platforming and said: "How can we make high speed platforming in 3D while delivering the kind of thrill no other mascot game can?" Obstacles! it's always been about obstacles!

Throw a wall in his path!

Better Quick step it! Oh shit spikes!

Quick hop over those! Damn hard turn ahead!

Driiiiiiiift! Fallen Pillar!

Slide under it! Loop de loop!

Crap a cramped alleyway! i can't slow down though! Navigate it!

L1,L1,R1,R1,L1,R1!

Griiiiiiind! Boost!

Sonic unleashed had all that cool stuff going on that you had to watch out for PLUS plain ol "platform hopping" that SA had. To me, THAT is how you do high speed platforming in 3D. It's much better than SA's technique of giving you a stretch of land to run on, stopping you to jump some gaps, giving a bit more land, stop AIM THIS LANTERN SO YOU CAN SEE (Lost world!) So how could SA possibly win in this category??? It simply can't. And as far as the werehog is concerned, he was simply a case of Sonic Team spilling a little God of War in their Sonic game. Seriously, he controls almost exactly like Kratos. When so many people loved that game for it's combat, why hate on a admittedly stupid idea that emulates it? The werehog also had a good long list of combos to use, and they were all well animated and fit the character. There were alot of moves that just left me going "OOOoooooh Sonic XD". There was nothing wrong with him. Sure he was a dumb idea, but he was polished, and you could tell a lot of time and effort when into his stages and movelist. I can't say the same for SA's other characters.

ChaosSupremeSonic said:

"Character's didn't exactly have too much to separate them from:

Gamma was almost Sonic with a Jetpack and a Gun

Tails was Sonic with the ability to fly and attack with his tails

Knuckles was Sonic who could glide and fight with his fists

Amy was Sonic with a hammer

Big was Sonic with a fishing pole."

How is that a diverse gamplay experience? That's just slapping 5 other poorly executed gimmicks on Sonic's basic design and some cases (Amy, BIG, Knux) Gimping Sonic unnecessarily. I would rather play as the werehog than the rest of them because since the werehog wasn't executed POORLY he ended up being pretty fun. I mean, imagine Knuckles with the werehogs game play style. I GUARANTEE 80% of the split Sonic fanbase would love it. He only get's hate because he's Sonic, and the transformation makes no sense. Really it makes as much sense as his super transformation. If Sonic Unleashed dropped the werehog and instead featured Sonic and Knuckles venturing around the earth with chip to restore the emeralds (Knuckles IS the guardian afterall, and i'm surprised with the earth shattering the ME didn't break again, but I'd imagine he would still care about restoring the Chaos Emeralds) and stop eggman, and they called it SONIC AND KNUCKLES 2 I bet it would be the most loved 3D Sonic easily. These werehog complaints are ridiculous. The ones concerning his actual gameplay at least.

Unleashed had more things to do endgame as well. The DLC added tons of stages, there were townspeople missions, medal hunting, and the classic S ranking. In SA, you could find things in the world sure, but for the most part they were just empty spaces to dick around in. Mystic ruins did not need to be so big, and the egg carrier was a wasted opportunity. And how was level design better??? Sonic games have always been about trial and error. You can't make a game like it without trial and error!! In my opinion the thrill of Sonic games is learning a stage and then dominating it as fast as possible while pulling off whatever slick moves you can come up with. These games were never designed for perfect run throughs on a players first try.

Many of Sonic Adventure's levels feature multiple paths that exist for their own sake. Sonic Unleashed has a main path and several other paths that are essentially punishments for not reading the designer's mind.

There are multiple paths in unleashed just the same as SA. But, in some paths in Unleashed there are traps waiting, or a higher chance of dying.

Bottomline, Unleashed delivers a much more satisfying 3D high speed platforming experience. Your're crazy to say SA1 OR 2 are better!

Music

I remember back when they were releasing those trailers level by level, I loved the song in each one. Every level in Unleashed has a great track, and I can't say the same for SA. SA's vocal tracks are great, and I remember really liking speed highway's track. Endless possibilities really fits with Unleashed, and I say that game also has the better soundtrack.

SA was great back in the day, but Sonic Team has improved tremendously. To say that 10 year old project is a better game is an insult.

He pretty much says everything I could and more XD

I mean Sonic Unleashed was one of the best 3D games ever and finally...a sonic game where you get chased by a giant robot 8D. It had action on every corner possible and even chances to make risky moves, robots everywhere capturing that sonic style that he should've always had and the whole games gameplay has the style of the intro clip in the game, minus the super sonic scene of course. The gameplay also captured my drem sonic-playing style exactly....even with the turbo boost 8D 8D 8D.

The werehog levels were pretty good also, sure it was pretty lame they turned him into a werehog (of all things) but really, I don't see anyone with any better ideas or make a better game. The platforming was good, it had that old-skool platforming playing style mixed with classic brawling action and lots of puzzle-solving.

The open-worlds were also really fun to explore and do missions offering 10 times more replay value than Sonic Adventure, but don't get me wrong, Sonic Adventure was a really good game, but it's been out, it's been played and frankly, it's now past it's time.

Everyone keeps complaining and comparing it to Sonic Adventure like Sonic Adventure's the best Sonic game ever but really, recently it's rumoured that Sonic Adventure mighht come to xbox live and not even half the sonic fan-base here even want to download it. Sure most of you's have the game and the DX version but half of them are saying no point in downloading it because it's boring....the very same people that stand up for Sonic Adventure in this subject......wierd ain't it?

That is all :3

[redmenace]

Thats just it. People don't want sonic with a drastically different gameplay style. And since Knux is a member of the Triple Threat (lolz) no one would've complained.

The werehog is not worse than the characters from SA. Sonic and tails were the only fun ones in SA.

I don't think he's worse either. My point was, the changing from Sonic to Werehog is exacly the same as changing from Sonic/Shadow to the other characters in SA2, while SA, you could play the whole story with one character, not obligated to go through the character stages in turn. That's the only difference.

Amy, to me, was good as well. It was solid platforming, though she was very slow.

[Dark Qiviut]

I don't count S3&K because everyone and their dog likes it (Except me again)

You're not alone. Of the main series classics, I find S3&K to be very overrated, and it's the one I like the least. Because I played it so much for so long, the game feels way too old and outdated, and it now becomes a chore to play.

Back to the OP's question, of the two, I'm going to say Adventure, but only because I haven't played Unleashed. All the gameplay styles were fun on their own, even Big's. Sonic's may be the most fun, but they were all good if you ask me.

Irregardless, both are quality games for their times. Adventure brought back the optimistic Sonic feel that went missing for quite some time. Unleashed did the same thing, although in a completely differ also eye for uniqueness in the Sonic series.

But if you ask me, despite my huge liking for Adventure, I agree that the gameplay style is passed its time. I want something new and different. Unleashed captures my eye due to this, in addition to the game being technologically sounder and better. The physics look better and well-executed, and it just looks DIFFERENT than any other Sonic game. That package just attracts be more nowadays due to how different it is.

Unleashed took platforming and said: "How can we make high speed platforming in 3D while delivering the kind of thrill no other mascot game can?" Obstacles! it's always been about obstacles!

I have to agree with this. I don't mind some Classic-like platforming, but I also want something fresh, not a copycat of Classic Sonic in 3D. Due to the day stages being very quick, the platforming was very difficult to mix. The latter stages and the DLCs did a good job, IMO. The Werehog, despite so-called "being out-of-place" looks fun, too.

I hope they maintain the boost, but by increasing the obstacles and other techniques (i.e., stamina to affect the longevity) to make the speed harder to maintain and more fun as a result.

[lounge]

The fact that the daytime stages (which are supposed to be the selling point of the game) aren't even fun, makes me wonder how Unleashed is supposed to be a step in the right direction. I'd hate to see another game like it. In F-Zero GX, your also going at the speed of sound, but it also feels like your playing a game. It's bad enough that I hated all the other stuff in Unleashed such as the characters, story, towns, and werehog gameplay.

[The Tenth Doctor]

I prefer Sonic Adventure. Unleashed had its good points but overall I like Adventure.

Story

The story of Sonic Unleashed is the same as Adventure except they added in the werehog. By now, we're all a bit sick of giant monsters and Dark Gaia is just the same as Chaos. I'm sorry but Adventure could get away with it because it was the first of its kind. Unleashed is 4 or 5 main story games down now and we've had giant monsters. Its overdone now. Plus point to Unleashed though is that its character follows a story with a point (cept for Empire City ). Big and E-102 where hardly needed for the overall plot.

Gameplay

I'll compare the day stages to Sonic's story in Adventure. Now I prefer the 3D games to the old days, but Adventure 1 felt more like an old school game. Yes Unleashed had sidescrolling. Adventure had the spindash, more classic points (capsules, sheilds etc) as well as old school sounds. Also I come to the Quicktime event. Its ok as a trick to another path. But a final boss being totally done by it? Ridiculous. I actually felt I was doing the damage to Perfect Chaos. Perfect Dark Gaia was defeated by a cutscene.

Other points

I also feel Adventure is more memorable. We all remember the game for a certain bit whether it be the Orca whale or "You're gonna Crash! Ah!". When i ask people about Unleashed they say "em....". Yes Unleashed has more replay value. But you don't feel as good as you did when you did it in story. Adventure still gives you that glow when rushing through its stages.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I just disagree. Unleashed was good. Not as good as its forefather though.

[JezMM]

I have a cold and a headache so can't be bothered with a big post, but I agree with XavierRussel's praise of Unleashed. I didn't think SA was as bad as he said, but I certainly agree Unleashed is better for the reasons he said.

I don't understand why people are so bothered by the high speed reaction test gameplay. If you can't handle it, "YOU'RE TOO SLOW. 8D" There is nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with reintroducing physics-based gameplay from the classics, but there is absoloutely NO good reason why Sonic can't be that AND high speed reaction tests.

I will never understand all these stupid criticisms of the high speed gameplay. Half the people say "you just hold boost to win", and half say "it's impossible to see anything coming". The only reason I can think of someone making the second criticism is because they're playing it like the someone making the first criticism claims you can.

Also Werehog was damn fun, and way deeper than any of SA1's additional characters. I will agree they made the Werehog stages too long though, or at least made the day stages not plentiful enough. On your first run through the story, you WILL play more Werehog than Sonic, even on PS360 version. They shoulda shortened the Werehog stages more (I think Dragon Road Act 1 and Jungle Joyride Act 1 on 360 were the maximum lengths a mandatory Werehog stage should be - and these were the shortest of the mandatory stages in the actual game), or at LEAST made it 2 mandatory Sonic stages, 1 mandatory Werehog stage per country. Just something, anything to equal out the playtime more.

Because while I love the Werehog, I do agree it's unfair to assume everyone should.

Oh, incidentally, SA had a deeper story, but SU had a much better presented one, so they're about equal.

Big? Nope. Doesn't matter. He chased a frog that happened to eat a Chaos Emerald. Whatever, stupid idea and even worse execution.

Just to comment on this (pet peeve), Big's story was about friendship. One guy loves his best friend and will do anything - never giving up - to save him. Not plot-twist riddled or deep, but it isn't completely random.

[Tornado]

This is where Unleashed DESTROYS SA. All you guys are saying that the platforming was better in SA, when that's just stupid. Stop thinking of platforming in the "old" sense of simply jumping on platform a,b, and c to reach platform d. Unleashed took platforming and said: "How can we make high speed platforming in 3D while delivering the kind of thrill no other mascot game can?" Obstacles! it's always been about obstacles!

You are essentially saying "stop thinking of platforming as, you know, platforming; and think of it instead as essentially F-Zero GX but without any of the fun."

Unleashed had more things to do endgame as well. The DLC added tons of stages, there were townspeople missions, medal hunting, and the classic S ranking.

DLC does not contribute to a game being a better game, because last I checked DLC does not come with the game.

Sonic games have always been about trial and error.

Wrong.

You can't make a game like it without trial and error!!

Wrong.

These games were never designed for perfect run throughs on a players first try.

Because Unleashed was poorly designed does not make it a positive for Unleashed simply because several other Sonic games have been poorly designed.

There are multiple paths in unleashed just the same as SA. But, in some paths in Unleashed there are traps waiting, or a higher chance of dying.

Are you using that as a positive for Unleashed?

Edited January 13, 2010 by Tornado

[Phos]

What is wrong with you guys! How could you possibly say SA1 is a better game than unleashed?? (PS3/360)

All you guys are saying that the platforming was better in SA, when that's just stupid.

Real classy, bro.

There are multiple paths in unleashed just the same as SA. But, in some paths in Unleashed there are traps waiting, or a higher chance of dying.

The multiple paths in in Sonic Adventure seldom had anything making one the obvious better path, it was choice for choice's sake, for the most part. In Unleashed, there is a clear good path and clear bad paths, and the game makes sure you know which one you're on.

And how was level design better??? Sonic games have always been about trial and error. You can't make a game like it without trial and error!!

I'm going to have to call bullshit on this. In general, Threats in the classic games are very clearly presented, those in Unleashed are very seldom even visible before they're almost upon you.

And that's the crux of the problem with Unleashed, or at least one of the branches that makes the crux, and one that I don't think I've ever seen an Unleashed supporter offer an argument that wasn't either false, invalid, or amounted to "I don't care", and that is that the levels are more in control of Sonic than you are. A proper run through a level will have the vast majority of Sonic's changes in direction and speed are carried out by objects in the level. The player isn't really in control in the traditional sense, they're mostly there to intervene at predetermined times.

[Nepenthe]

I agree that the clarity of oncoming threats is inversely proportional to how fast you're going, but I don't agree that Unleashed is the only example-- It's an extreme one (an extremity that varies as much as you use the boost), but to deny that the Classics are devoid of the issue on one's new and early playthroughs is wrong; After all, the "speed must be earned" mantra people use seems tantamount to that. You're going to run into something your first time playing. I recently attempted a speed run of Act 2 of Spring Yard for a tournament, and the amount of objects and enemies I hit along the way because I forgot they were there and ran too fast to react accordingly was glaring, specifically the first bumper, the spike balls, those purple bastards of robots, and the rigged half-pipes. This isn't really a new problem, per se.

That goes for automation and holding right too. When Adventure released, my old man said, 'You're not in control of that game!' and this has always been true to some extent in 3D Sonic games whenever the developer allows you to pick up your speed. In Adventure's case, a memorable offender is Windy Valley's third act-- You abuse the control stick and watch the fun. Those sections are littered throughout Sonic and Tails' campaigns and only broken up by significant input when they end and lead to a heavier platforming section. In a way, they're actually unnecessary tack-ons. Unleashed is the opposite to a degree, and I say to a degree because basing half of the game around that concept inevitably led to Sonic's enlarged repertoire. Ergo, you'll be doing a hell of a lot more maneuvering through the day stages than you will Adventure's take on the format. There's still heavy platforming sections to break up the tension in there too (and then the Werehog and town stages if those count); They're just smaller.

Ultimately, I find that Unleashed cannot be faulted for anything unique, QTEs arguable and notwithstanding(?), because it's essentially Adventure all over again. Like most other 3D Sonic experiences, the same faults are definitely there, just to varying degrees, and one will annoy you more than the other depending upon your tastes which ultimately renders the level of heatedness and elitism that occurs when both sides discuss the game can achieve rather silly.

Now personally, I probably like Unleashed better than Adventure at this point simply because it's technically superior and better presented (that and I haven't revisited Adventure in forever). I'll probably elaborate on the extent of my love in another post assuming this one hasn't been ripped to shreds by the time I get around to that.

[Phos]

You're going to run into something your first time playing. I recently attempted a speed run of Act 2 of Spring Yard for a tournament, and the amount of objects and enemies I hit along the way because I forgot they were there and ran too fast to react accordingly was glaring, specifically the first bumper, the spike balls, those purple bastards of robots, and the rigged half-pipes. This isn't really a new problem, per se.

This had essentially been ironed out by the time Sonic 2 came out.

That goes for automation and holding right too. When Adventure released, my old man said, 'You're not in control of that game!' and this has always been true to some extent in 3D Sonic games whenever the developer allows you to pick up your speed. In Adventure's case, a memorable offender is Windy Valley's third act-- You abuse the control stick and watch the fun. Those sections are littered throughout Sonic and Tails' campaigns and only broken up by significant input when they end and lead to a heavier platforming section. In a way, they're actually unnecessary tack-ons.

Sounds like someone needs to play some Sky Deck or Red Mountain or something. Twinkle Park is also a pretty good counterexample.

Also, hilarious ad sense ad is hilarious:

uninstall sonic

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[Tornado]

This had essentially been ironed out by the time Sonic 2 came out.

I disagree with that. I'd say Sonic 2 was the worst bits of Sonic 1 stretched over the whole game.

[Diogenes]

This had essentially been ironed out by the time Sonic 2 came out.

I got whanged in the face with a mace in Marble Garden just a few minutes ago. Can't see the damn things coming unless you know about them, as they're pretty fast and cover a lot of ground.

[Nepenthe]

This had essentially been ironed out by the time Sonic 2 came out.

No, it hadn't. Sonic 2 is considerably worse. And assuming what you said was true, this doesn't refute my point that Unleashed has not set this precedent since you yourself admit Sonic 1 is offensive.

And on this point, I suppose it'd be relevant to point out that fucking enemy in Knuckles' Flying Battery Zone-- You know, the one on the ground that you will run into after being launched back inside of the ship by a boost pad or something? Yeah, screw that robot.

Sounds like someone needs to play some Sky Deck or Red Mountain or something. Twinkle Park is also a pretty good counterexample.

Twinkle Park does have that rollercoaster... but I'm going to ignore it out of pickiness. xD I will give you those three levels. But that leaves the other six or seven that have or even are obviously automated and/or hold right sections. Not really that great of a counterpoint.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Nepenthe

[XavierRussell]

The fact that the daytime stages (which are supposed to be the selling point of the game) aren't even fun, makes me wonder how Unleashed is supposed to be a step in the right direction. I'd hate to see another game like it. In F-Zero GX, your also going at the speed of sound, but it also feels like your playing a game. It's bad enough that I hated all the other stuff in Unleashed such as the characters, story, towns, and werehog gameplay.

I thought the daytime stages were loads of fun. In F-Zero GX you do way less than you do running through a stage in Unleashed. Play Eggmanland or Jungle Joyride act 1 and tell me you just boost through and turn like F-Zero. you can't compare the two!

You are essentially saying "stop thinking of platforming as, you know, platforming; and think of it instead as essentially F-Zero GX but without any of the fun."

DLC does not contribute to a game being a better game, because last I checked DLC does not come with the game.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Because Unleashed was poorly designed does not make it a positive for Unleashed simply because several other Sonic games have been poorly designed.

Are you using that as a positive for Unleashed?

1. No, I'm saying that is not ALL that platforming can be. If that was the case I know I still wouldn't be playing Sonic games.

2. DLC that is not simply an unlock code DOES contribute to it being a better game. it was made after the game was finished, and simply made it better. That DLC easily added 20 new Acts/Challenges. That's more daytime and nightime goodness. Thats like saying GTA4 on 360 is not a better game on that system because of it's exclusive DLC, when it very clearly is. Someone with just a PS3 (like me!) Doesnt get to experience all of GTA 4.

3. Everyone who isn't a gamer, and in many cases people who are, that boot up Sonic 1 having never played it usually and start out running, miss one of the first 3 rings, or don't even jump at them. When they don't they just keep running and hit that first badnik. I've seen it countless times. I've been on a SMS/GG kick recently and have watched playthroughs of Sonic1 and 2 GG and Sonic Chaos. Those games are ridiculously designed around trial and error. Moreso because of the limited view. The one that honestly feels the most like it isn't is Sonic 3 off the top of my head. Spinball, Adventure 1, 2 (Doin Crazy Gadget perfectly your first try?? I'm sure you did.), Heroes (Egg Fortress or the Haunted House perfectly first try?), 06 (Wasn't done but still, it's obvious.), Unleashed, Shadow, all these games revolve around trial and error. You can't make a "high speed platformer" without it. You aren't gonna not hit the bumper in Spring Yard, Dodge the Egg Vipers suicide attack (maybe), not be killed by the first badnik in Sonic 1,etc without having it happen at least once. If you think it can be done than cite an example, and don't just say "Oh well I ran through it perfectly!" i don't think any of these games were poorly designed, except of course Shadow and 06. What's it say about all of us if we still cling to a series of poorly designed games?

Like I said earlier, for me, the thrill of Sonic games is mastering that act, memorizing it's tricks, and dashing trough it like the fastest thing alive should.

4. The only difference between Unleashes paths early on is whether you're going to get more rings or a medal or somethin. But yea, in something like Eggmanland, you mess up and you die. Also QTEs have always been a love it or hate it kinda thing. They don't bother me personally.

SA1 was great but we shouldn't treat it like it better than anything else that comes along. I honestly and fathom the thought that if you could only choose one forever, you wouldn't choose Sonic Unleashed PS3/360

Edited January 14, 2010 by XavierRussell

[Chooch]

I enjoy both games although Sonic Unleashed is technically superior. No real debating that.

Sonic Adventure is a great game and I love it, but not for the same reasons as I love Unleashed. And I think it's because of that I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other. They are two very different games that (in most cases) appeal to two entirely different audiences. Luckily, I'm open minded enough to enjoy both for what they are. :3

tl;dr Stop comparing two completely different games, guys.

[XavierRussell]

I enjoy both games although Sonic Unleashed is technically superior. No real debating that.

Sonic Adventure is a great game and I love it, but not for the same reasons as I love Unleashed. And I think it's because of that I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other. They are two very different games that (in most cases) appeal to two entirely different audiences. Luckily, I'm open minded enough to enjoy both for what they are. :3

tl;dr Stop comparing two completely different games, guys.

I like both games as well. I guess now is as good a time as any to agree to disagree. To each his own. (BUT I KNOW THE TRUTH HAHA!) >.>

[Tornado]

2. DLC that is not simply an unlock code DOES contribute to it being a better game. it was made after the game was finished, and simply made it better. That DLC easily added 20 new Acts/Challenges. That's more daytime and nightime goodness. Thats like saying GTA4 on 360 is not a better game on that system because of it's exclusive DLC, when it very clearly is. Someone with just a PS3 (like me!) Doesnt get to experience all of GTA 4.

Are you paying extra for it? Yes? Then that content is irrelevant when comparing games because the DLC isn't part of the game proper. You are saying something akin to "this game is better because it has bitchin' expansion packs."

3. Everyone who isn't a gamer, and in many cases people who are, that boot up Sonic 1 having never played it usually and start out running, miss one of the first 3 rings, or don't even jump at them. When they don't they just keep running and hit that first badnik. I've seen it countless times.

I'm fairly certain it would be ingrained in the public eye, even to those who have never played a Sonic game, that rings = good. For that matter, your scenario is essentially the same as saying "play 1-1 in Super Mario and don't even bother trying to avoid the Goombas." There is only so much a developer can do to help a player out; and short of an inane tutorial to tell the player that running headlong into enemies is bad, it really can't be helped if the people playing the games are stupid.

I've been on a SMS/GG kick recently and have watched playthroughs of Sonic1 and 2 GG and Sonic Chaos. Those games are ridiculously designed around trial and error. Moreso because of the limited view.

Those are also very mediocre games, having been farmed out to no name companies to keep the ailing Master System going just a little bit longer. Sonic 2 MS alternates in being my favorite game in the whole series, but I don't pretend that it is anywhere near the best.

The one that honestly feels the most like it isn't is Sonic 3 off the top of my head.

You mean the game that is frequently held up as being the best game in the entire series doesn't have terrible game design choices?

Spinball,

That isn't even a platformer.

Adventure 1, 2 (Doin Crazy Gadget perfectly your first try?? I'm sure you did.), Heroes (Egg Fortress or the Haunted House perfectly first try?), 06 (Wasn't done but still, it's obvious.), Unleashed, Shadow, all these games revolve around trial and error. You can't make a "high speed platformer" without it. You aren't gonna not hit the bumper in Spring Yard, Dodge the Egg Vipers suicide attack (maybe), not be killed by the first badnik in Sonic 1,etc without having it happen at least once.

Once or twice in a game towards the final levels isn't the same thing as "pretty much the only crutch the developers bothered relying on to increase the game difficulty." One thing you need to keep in mind is that no one is saying that the old Sonic games didn't have bits that were trial-and-error. What me and Phos are saying is that, for the most part, none of them were made up of exclusively trial-and-error. Unleashed pretty much is.

What's it say about all of us if we still cling to a series of poorly designed games?

I'd say that the Sonic fanbase is batshit insane. I've said it before.

Like I said earlier, for me, the thrill of Sonic games is mastering that act, memorizing it's tricks, and dashing trough it like the fastest thing alive should.

I get plenty of thrill out of Sonic 1 and Sonic 3. Heck, even Sonic CD. I don't get a lot of thrill out of Sonic 2. Sonic Unleashed is the worst parts of Sonic 2 (Aquatic Ruin, Mystic Cave, Metropolis), only it is an entire game of them.

tl;dr, if Trial-and-Error gameplay was the main source behind the level design and difficulty of the Sonic series, there would still be Bubsy games.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Tornado

[XavierRussell]

Are you paying extra for it? Yes? Then that content is irrelevant when comparing games because the DLC isn't part of the game proper. You are saying something akin to "this game is better because it has bitchin' expansion packs."

I'm fairly certain it would be ingrained in the public eye, even to those who have never played a Sonic game, that rings = good. For that matter, your scenario is essentially the same as saying "play 1-1 in Super Mario and don't even bother trying to avoid the Goombas." There is only so much a developer can do to help a player out; and short of an inane tutorial to tell the player that running headlong into enemies is bad, it really can't be helped if the people playing the games are stupid.

Those are also very mediocre games, having been farmed out to no name companies to keep the ailing Master System going just a little bit longer. Sonic 2 MS alternates in being my favorite game in the whole series, but I don't pretend that it is anywhere near the best.

You mean the game that is frequently held up as being the best game in the entire series doesn't have terrible game design choices?

That isn't even a platformer.

Once or twice in a game towards the final levels isn't the same thing as "pretty much the only crutch the developers bothered relying on to increase the game difficulty." One thing you need to keep in mind is that no one is saying that the old Sonic games didn't have bits that were trial-and-error. What me and Phos are saying is that, for the most part, none of them were made up of exclusively trial-and-error. Unleashed pretty much is.

I'd say that the Sonic fanbase is batshit insane. I've said it before.

I get plenty of thrill out of Sonic 1 and Sonic 3. Heck, even Sonic CD. I don't get a lot of thrill out of Sonic 2. Sonic Unleashed is the worst parts of Sonic 2 (Aquatic Ruin, Mystic Cave, Metropolis), only it is an entire game of them.

tl;dr, if Trial-and-Error gameplay was the main source behind the level design and difficulty of the Sonic series, there would still be Bubsy games.

1. That content isn't irrelevent it makes a difference to me at least. Why would I get the PS2 version if the PS3 one has more content, even if i have to pay for it?

2. You'd be surprised. They weren't stupid, they just didn't react to it fast enough. I lost my first 3 rings there the first time I ever played.

3. I didn't think those games were mediocre. they were pretty decent. They were alot harder too but mainly because of the control and level design/cropped view.

4. My bad what was i thinking o.O

5. That's wrong. the game did not rely on trial and error to increase difficulty. The game taught you all the moves you'd need to use and in my opinion gave just enough time for you to do the need quickstep, QTE, drift, light speed dash or anything else. I'll admit with Eggmanland they threw the whole sink at us though. I never said trial and error was what it was about, just that it was a pretty good part of it.

Sonic 1 bores me whenever I try to play it nowadays. It just feels a tad too slow and I miss the spindash too much. I same the same way about Advance 1 though too. But I like that game more.

Tornado you're a good man, but I still gotta hand it to Unleashed. We seem to have completely opposite tastes, yet love the same franchise v_v

EDIT: And I liked Aquatic ruin and Mystic Cave....

Edited January 14, 2010 by XavierRussell

[Phos]

No, it hadn't. Sonic 2 is considerably worse. And assuming what you said was true, this doesn't refute my point that Unleashed has not set this precedent since you yourself admit Sonic 1 is offensive.

In Sonic 2, moments like these are the exception rather than the rule, there are a handful in each level. In Unleashed, there are large stretches of nothing but that.

Twinkle Park does have that rollercoaster... but I'm going to ignore it out of pickiness. xD I will give you those three levels. But that leaves the other six or seven that have or even are obviously automated and/or hold right sections. Not really that great of a counterpoint.

The automated sections in Adventure make up bits and pieces of the level, they seldom last for more than a second or so (The same way as they were used in Sonic 3), and the whale is as long as they got. Windy Valley Act 3 had that long linear section, but it also had that cool cylindrical shaped thing with the spiked balls and two floors. Parts one and two of the same level have you going all over the place, broken up only by the brief leaf running sequences. I also didn't even mention Ice Cap, which doesn't have an automated moment in it (unless you want to count the cut scene where Sonic gets on the snow board). It actually took a sequence from Sonic 3 that had been automated and put you in control of it. Casinopolis has Dilapidated Way (the sewer), this entire section never takes control from the player. Then there's "At Dawn", part 3 of Speed Highway. This segment is simply stunning, it's like looking through a key hole at an ideal Sonic game. Final Egg has this one winding hallway that's automated, the rest you do yourself.