Devil's Advocate: Sonic Unleashed is MUCH better then Sonic Adventure

[JezMM]

Well, you made some good points there. I understand.

Though I still insist the game would play fine if they had just been a bit clearer with the tutorials... Hell, even have context-sensitive messages that flash up on screen. The first 10 times you bump into an easy-to-avoid hazard, it makes a non-intrustive message warning you not to spam boost etc.

(Oh, also, I obviously, when recording runthroughs just using boost, wouldn't react to hazards... I'm talking a literal annoying "I'm gonna play EXACTLY how you say I can to prove you wrong" thing where I just hold down boost, jumping occasionally perhaps, and time how long it takes me to die on each level).

[Blacklightning]

Well, you made some good points there. I understand.

Though I still insist the game would play fine if they had just been a bit clearer with the tutorials... Hell, even have context-sensitive messages that flash up on screen. The first 10 times you bump into an easy-to-avoid hazard, it makes a non-intrustive message warning you not to spam boost etc.

Well then, it looks like we are in agreement.

Which honestly, I'm fucking amazed at considering my arguements/debates don't usually end this way XD

(Oh, also, I obviously, when recording runthroughs just using boost, wouldn't react to hazards... I'm talking a literal annoying "I'm gonna play EXACTLY how you say I can to prove you wrong" thing where I just hold down boost, jumping occasionally perhaps, and time how long it takes me to die on each level).

The "hold X / hold right" thing is typically a generalization. While it's not the entirety of the game per se, Boosting does still take up a very large portion of it, and not only does it gets repetitive to some people, people start to become desensitized to the INSANE raw speed of the Boost when used so frequently, wearing the novelty off quickly.

I might've missed something here but I got distracted in the middle of writing this. XD

[Phos]

Apotos is a pretty grievous example of the automation, there's a big bit in the middle where you have to do nothing but holding boost and tapping B every now and then. Basically, you can do all but the first 30 seconds and the last 5 seconds one handed.

[Chooch]

This is just the 'Why do so many people hate Sonic Unleashed' topic all over again.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Chooch

[Hazuki Heartwood]

Sorry, guys, it's just that while I found SU to be fast and action packed, I find SA to be like every other platformer out there...

Then again, I do own three copys of Sonic Adventure for dreamcast... I loved that game when I was little and played it all the time. I have all the emblems in SA. It was great for it's time but I find it a little dull now. My favorite level in the Sonic Adventure series is probobly Crazy Gadget, and most people hate that stage it seems, so maybe I have odd tastes.

[jonathan]

I find the criticisms that Unleashed throws unpredictable obstacles to be weak; as many have pointed out the classics do the same thing, with Sonic 2 being the the worst offender which is ironic as many believe this to be the greatest Sonic game of all-time. At many times in Sonic 1 even, a decent amount of trail, error, luck and memory are required; you jump and because the game is 2-d you cant see the bottom of the stage and you unexpectedly you fall unto spikes, badnik with spikes, fire, or heaven forbid a bottomless pit.

Furthermore, i don't see Eggmanland being that different from Metropolis zone, or Scrap-brain zone. I recently played those levels after years of not playing them and did remarkably bad.

In the end I believe different attitudes of what a Sonic game should/shouldn't play like and how "cheap" a difficulty Is will guide peoples subjective opinions about the game, whether the game be great,good,decent,mediocre,bad or abysmal.

[Blacklightning]

Furthermore, i don't see Eggmanland being that different from Metropolis zone, or Scrap-brain zone.

Well for one thing, neither of those have platforming made needlessly difficult due to the fact you can't see your own shadow properly. Those two do indeed have their own forms of insta-death, but neither are caused by a complete inability to actually tell where you're about to land after a difficult jump. I'd argue more, but the rest of my points have been made pretty clear throughout the last two pages.

[jonathan]

I never really was aware that i used my shadow in platforming, just impeccable guesstimating on my part I suppose.

-----------Those two do indeed have their own forms of insta-death, but neither are caused by a complete inability to actually tell where you're about to land after a difficult jump.

It dosent matter what they are caused by, by your own admission, they have their own cheap deaths which is sufficient to be deemed cheap by less than forgiving players. Also I would like to point out that in particular, I find Metropolis atrociously annoying; those annoying yellow bumpers always knocking you around, the stupid screw thingy you have to run on while dodging exploding stars and don't fall, or else you have to repeat the same pain staking process again. I found that level more than cheap, it was tedious and annoying. Still, I love Sonic 2 in spite of this. As a matter of fact this sort of difficulty is quite fun to me, call me masochistic if you will. lol. I just expect the last levels in games to be slightly, ahem, unfair, yes that's my subjectivity creeping in.

Sorry I couldn't read through all your posts, this topic is getting kinda long.

[Cortez]

Urghhh, it's IRRELEVANT whether the classics had those sections or not, the classics are 2 FUCKING D so obviously you can't see something that's off the screen. Unleashed is 3D, at the very least I expect to be aware of something in a 3D game before it kills me because the viewpoint is extended so much more over the classic games. If anything the claims defending Unleashed are weak, most them either just ignoring the argument against them or being simply 'yeah well you're wrong'. Fair enough opinion I know but if you can't even acknowledge the existance of the game's fatal flaws which have been proven with evidence to exist then what is even the point of trying to counter them, saying those problems exist in the classics is NOT a counter argument, gaming has moved on abit since 1994.

JezMM is the only one adding any decent counter arguments in this topic.

[Nepenthe]

Urghhh, it's IRRELEVANT whether the classics had those sections or not, the classics are 2 FUCKING D so obviously you can't see something that's off the screen. Unleashed is 3D, at the very least I expect to be aware of something in a 3D game before it kills me because the viewpoint is extended so much more over the classic games. If anything the claims defending Unleashed are weak, most them either just ignoring the argument against them or being simply 'yeah well you're wrong'. Fair enough opinion I know but if you can't even acknowledge the existance of the game's fatal flaws which have been proven with evidence to exist then what is even the point of trying to counter them, saying those problems exist in the classics is NOT a counter argument, gaming has moved on abit since 1994.

When the classics are always used as the paradigm of perfection, it actually is an effective counter to try and demonstrate any flaws that they may have in return, especially if those flaws can be directly compared between the subjects of discussion as that gives credability to the game that's on the defense. What you're basically saying is that when comparing and contrasting, we're shouldn't compare, and that makes no sense. This is regardless of the fact of the matter as the argument is more subjective than you and some others are making it out to be, ascribing the game's flaws a universal qualifier that becomes irrelevant upon acknowledging that there are people out there who enjoyed Unleashed more than you did.

[Kintor]

I can’t help but that think that this thread’s line of thought has gone in completely the wrong direction. As I said earlier, a game can’t be understood if you only look at one feature, at the expense of all other content. Games are not merely programs; they are much like an art form. So much of what we experience in a game comes down to subjective tastes, our individual perceptions of how a game can be played. No game has ever been played the same way twice. I think that it is wrong to try and look at Sonic Unleashed like this. No single feature or function can create a game great on its own. Games are a form of entertainment, every part of a game helps generate a fun experience, no part can be ignored. At the end of the day,

So it is with Sonic Unleashed. Remember, as the old saying goes – all things in moderation. Sonic Unleashed works best when the player uses all of Sonic’s abilities. Don’t spam the boost, instead use it as needed. In fact, I would recommended that new players show restraint with the boost and avoid using this power at all while platforming. Speaking of platforms, Sonic has always been able to jump; just because the boost can solve a problem doesn’t mean it always should. After all, there is always more then one way to solve a problem. Some players have been able to beat each level in ways Sonic Team never intended, all through judicious use of Sonic’s unique gameplay mechanics. Even while each gameplay component is a lot of fun to use, they work best when used in unison.

Of course, gameplay is only part of the equation or should I say part of the artwork; Sonic must have a level to run in. To this end, Sonic Team has developed many great levels. Granted there are many traps along the way but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Games are meant to be challenges, if I fail I just try again, if there was no risk there would be no game – we’d be left with an interactive movie which only has one predetermined ending. Besides, traps and tricks are only a small part of what makes a good Sonic level. The game is as much about the journey as it is the destination. So when I look at Sonic Unleashed I see a beautifully designed game, brought to life by the Hedgehog engine and made in the image of the real world. I love these levels because of the atmosphere they created, even if they do try to kill me every now and again.

Now we have two ideas to consider: the gameplay and the level design. However, even now this is not enough to fully appreciate Sonic Unleashed. As I said before, every part of game helps create a fun experience. I think that Sonic Unleashed is a fun game, a great Sonic game, because each and every last detail made it so. I look at the CGI in this game and see good quality work, I don’t think I have to convince anyone here of how impressive Sega’s CGI has become in recent years. Moreover, the story line work was also pretty good, telling a fairly basic story but telling it well. I may talk most about Sonic’s games but I’ve also always been a fan of the cartoons. Watching a random episode of ASOTH remains one of my earliest memories, more recently I have rediscovered SATAM – I might love this show more now then when it first aired. I love Sonic Unleashed’s intro because I could quite easily see it being expanded into a full fledged ‘cartoon’ show.

There is a lot to admire about Sonic Unleashed, what I’ve mentioned here barely scratches the surface. There are so many little details that make this game great; I just can’t list them all here. I wouldn’t be surprised if there things about this game I am not even consciously aware of; little details, like cogs in a machine, working to make a fun game and I just haven’t noticed it yet.

[jonathan]

"Urghhh, it's IRRELEVANT whether the classics had those sections or not, the classics are 2 FUCKING D so obviously you can't see something that's off the screen. Unleashed is 3D, at the very least I expect to be aware of something in a 3D game before it kills me because the viewpoint is extended so much more over the classic games."

---So you admit that the Classics are indeed composed of a fair amount of trail, error, luck and memory? Unleashed usually warns of coming obstacles or winding routes. Just because it is 3-D in no wise guarantees that crashing into obstacles are somehow eliminated, I believe for the most part the game is balanced enough to avoid enough of them.

----Fair enough opinion I know but if you can't even acknowledge the existance of the game's fatal flaws which have been proven with evidence to exist then what is even the point of trying to counter them

Sounds a little circular. I don't feel the game, maybe aside from the were-hog has fatal flaws.

---saying those problems exist in the classics is NOT a counter argument, gaming has moved on abit since 1994.

See Nepenthe's reply

In the end, the player is the judge of all things. The quick time events are extremely easy for me and implemented well, forceing the player to be attentive and alert, as if they were Sonic himself. I feel the Sonic boost is a great addition (Although I do feel it could be replaced by a well implemented spindash) as it allows a different expreince, much more speed oriented to be used maximally for more skilled players.

Sonic Adventure includes SIX different playing styles which heavily adulterates the traditional Sonic experience. If anything, The Werehog is a consequence of SA's precedence, but is less frequent than the other five gamplay styles (of which Tails is good and Knuckles is decent) and is a million times more enjoyable than bigs, a thousand times funner than amys, and a hundred times funner than gammas. Then again, that's my subjectivity seeping in, something that is being tragically being underplayed in this dialogue.

I hope we can remain diplomatic and respectful. No hard feelings.

[JezMM]

Apotos is a pretty grievous example of the automation, there's a big bit in the middle where you have to do nothing but holding boost and tapping B every now and then. Basically, you can do all but the first 30 seconds and the last 5 seconds one handed.

I have beaten Apotos without ever touching the control stick actually, but it WAS time-consuming. There were 1 or 2 moments where I got stuck and spent about 5 minutes very slowly turning myself round with the spinning kick.

Apotos is a pretty fun (and pretty pretty) level though overall. Meh if it's easy, it's the first level.

Kintor, I get what you're trying to say and as you probably already know, I LOVE Unleashed, but it is also true that ONE glaring feature can ruin a work of art. As I've learned, you can make up excuses all the time saying "you should do THIS to enjoy the game", but if the GAME doesn't tell you that, then there's something wrong. Which is why I think Unleashed is an amazing game and I wouldn't change a thing about it in terms of what goes on in the 3D space - but I do think it needs to be even more user-friendly because, really, it's a very unique game compared to most platformers/action games.

In fact, for all the pure-ness they tried to give the levels, it probably could have done with a hint voice from Chip (with the option to turn it off) for the first few levels. Not everyone will read those ? bubbles. I only really did on Werehog stages.

Edited January 15, 2010 by JezMM

[Blacklightning]

No single feature or function can create a game great on its own.

You know what, you're actually absolutely right on this count at least. That's exactly why relying so heavily on the boost in the first place was such a bad idea.

So it is with Sonic Unleashed. Remember, as the old saying goes – all things in moderation. Sonic Unleashed works best when the player uses all of Sonic’s abilities. Don’t spam the boost, instead use it as needed.

The game makes no attempt to reinforce this, and if anything, assures you it's perfectly okay right before you start losing lives for it.

Of course, gameplay is only part of the equation or should I say part of the artwork; Sonic must have a level to run in. To this end, Sonic Team has developed many great levels. Granted there are many traps along the way but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Games are meant to be challenges, if I fail I just try again, if there was no risk there would be no game – we’d be left with an interactive movie which only has one predetermined ending.

Ironically, the game is so auto-pathed and linear that it is already practically an interactive movie... then they throw in unseeable instadeath traps just to be a complete ass.

I won't comment on the rest yet, seeing it is more or less completely irrelevant to the complaints brought up thus far, and you've still yet to explain how exactly the level design is in any way fair or how you're prepared for it in advance. Congratulations, despite a whopping five paragraph post you've effectively proved absolutely nothing and made no effort to counterpoint the persistent criticisms brought against you. You may say there's more to it than that, but the level design and learning curve are so horrifically badly done that they practically drag the game down by itself, and no amount of CGI and voice acting changes that.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Blacklightning

[Octarine]

There is a lot to admire about Sonic Unleashed, what I’ve mentioned here barely scratches the surface. There are so many little details that make this game great; I just can’t list them all here. I wouldn’t be surprised if there things about this game I am not even consciously aware of; little details, like cogs in a machine, working to make a fun game and I just haven’t noticed it yet.

Too true. The raw mechanics of Unleashed's levels exhibited many of the flaws that are being commented on, but (even though I enjoyed them anyway) they're far from the only thing the game has to offer. I've thought of a few other things that I feel Unleashed did better than Adventure:

Regular Bosses: I'm a sucker for interesting boss battles, and Unleashed provided quite the variety. They weren't all great, especially the pathetically easy Egg Devil Ray and the block-pushing exercise that was the HD version of the Dark Guardian, but most of the others were a lot of fun. The Egg Dragoon in particular is one of my favourite Sonic bosses ever. Adventure's bosses were okay for the time, but they're all kind of generic. In fact, I'd say this is really the place where Unleashed's boosting and werehog combat were unquestionably a blessing: there are only so many ways you can use the homing attack on a boss, so the unique play styles spiced things up.

Enemies: Sure, everybody prefers Badniks to Eggman's modern robots, but the Badniks in Adventure just felt... insubstantial. They didn't have much effect on the game at all, at least during Sonic's stages, and they weren't much fun to destroy. They just blended into the background, usually. Unleashed's robots, while less unique, felt satisfying to demolish and were very prominent in the levels, even in places where they weren't much of an actual hazard.

Hubs: Yeah, I went there. Adventure's Adventure Fields were alright, but there wasn't really much to do in them besides the extremely basic puzzles and finding the occasional upgrade. Most of them were fairly benign, but I legitimately despise that damn jungle maze. Bllllrgh. Unleashed's hubs were smaller, but they offered enough well-designed NPCs and actual things to do that they more than made up for the scaling down.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Octarine

[Djawed]

Unleashed is more finished, and does contain absolutely beautiful graphics (of course, SA1 came out more than a decade ago). It also contains that perfect cartoony feel that the series should keep for the 3D outings (except that the games of course need more whimsical and surreal landscapes like the classics).

But these things don't matter much in the end. SA1 overall had the better gameplay and level design, no matter the glitches and bugs it had (hey, it was good for its time). Sonic was fast, but was also still based around quick platforming, puzzles and keeping the flow and momentum while also exploring the stages (oh yeah, and using the Spindash to toy with physics). That, and also every character was fun to play as minus Big of course. The plot was also much better than Unleashed's, although the voice acting was superior in SU.

couldnt have said it better.

[Arrow]

Take out the werehog crap and you have a game ten times better than Sonic Adventure.

The only thing making Adventure better for me is the fact that it was the beginning of a new era.

[JezMM]

I still find Werehog more fun than any of the side characters in SA put together. At least he has original levels and is his own thing.

On SA, they're all more slow/boring/awkward versions of Sonic.

[Nepenthe]

Take out the werehog crap and you have a game ten times better than Sonic Adventure.

What? No! Keep the Werehog in! ><

I realize I'm in an ridiculously insignificant camp and am thus beating my gums, but I adored the Werehog, and I believe that there was great validity and several positives to the form's existence.

As far as gameplay goes, the amount of control you have over Sonic at night dwarfs what can be achieved during the day, and one could argue that the Werehog was actually more classic than day Sonic in many critical regards. We had greater control over which direction he was facing, his acceleration, and his jumping maneuvers at all times, and platforming was made equivocal, if not superior to the gimmick which in this case was forced brawling, and I differentiate that from brawling altogether as there are actually plenty of moments were you can simply skip a group of enemies altogether if you so choose.

Speaking of enemies, they didn't just stand there and let you run headlong through them. When properly alerted, enemies fought back with full force and different maneuvers, and most had specific methods for disposing of them efficiently. They even had a little personality to themselves, responding comically when they're surprised from sleep, in the midst of battle, exhausted, set ablaze, etc. If you ask me, they're just as entertaining to watch as they are to kill.

But I'm not ignorant to the Werehog's objective flaws, one of which was the small window of opportunity to grab a ledge. It was something even I struggled with until someone discovered the solution of holding the B button down wherein your success rate ascends astronomically, so it's practically a non-issue. Judging the distance in some areas was a pain due to camera placement and lighting however, most notably the swing poles you come across in the pagodas of Dragon Road. But that isn't a flaw of the form, but rather a flaw of the level design-- You place Classic Sonic in Sonic 06's levels and you'd still have a bad experience.

This goes for the much-loathed balance beams too, although I admit their margin of error is arguably too small to be fair too regardless. I say arguable, as people have cited that the obstacle is actually unfair in Empire City and even farther back to which I respond, "No it wasn't." It's a case of aligning the Werehog properly and waiting for the camera to swivel around during 90 degree turns so that you can keep moving. It's simple enough to master that I can't completely agree with its merciless nature. If I could, I'd make the Werehog river dance on those beams and not face a plummet.

On to more aesthetic and subjective fluff that'll paint me as even more of a mad-woman, first of which is his design. Working in its favor is the fact that it's an alternate form for Sonic and benefits from simplicity. No air shoes, goggles, or leaf-heads to bog it down; Just a rounded form on a triangular base, a strange amalgamation of Vector and Sonic that works well enough to send across the exact message that needed to be sent-- Underneath that glare and teeth, the Werehog is just as warm and comedic.

He's more akin to Chris Sanders' Stitch than Larry Talbot, balancing a juxtaposition of intimidation yet fantastic stylization with that ridiculous girth to his arms and shortness to his legs. I remember the Gamespot E3 demonstration where the hosts started laughing and pointing out his proportions in a genuinely positive manner, and I thought, "Perfect. Someone gets this." In an age where even werewolves have become serious business and the fanbase continues to push away realism, Sonic Team thankfully went in the opposite direction, and I think it paid off immensely. From a glance, the Werehog is fun yet badass, something people continue to rail that Sonic needs to be.

More to the point of the Werehog's ability to balance comedy and seriousness is his Japanese portrayal. There is no gruffness or scowl or rasp in the Werehog's voice, and in fact Jason's portrayal just completely misses the whole point of the character. Despite the fear and nervousness he naturally generates from the universe's inhabitants, the Werehog possesses an almost unfitting chilled and friendly demeanor in his speech and tone. From sound alone, there is no indiciation that he isn't normal, and that adds more likeability to the character.

Upon waking Chip from unconsciousness, The Werehog gives a cheery "Yo!" and smiles... only to be kicked in the face. It's genuinely entertaining, dead on point, and all the more testament to his seiyuu's incredible talent. Indeed, Tomokazu Seki absolutely makes that character, and his performance alone is more than enough justification for further appearances... uh, in spin-offs and stuff, of course. <3;;

Finally, I was also able to easily create a character study on the form, exploring its impact on Sonic's character, its further expansion on the light vs. dark themes, and even how it relates to the modern Sonic fanbase. If you so desire, you can read the whole topic here.

Let's begin with our usual description. If there's actually a Sonic fan in the dark about who this interesting character is, the Werehog is an accidental form of Sonic caused by Eggman meddling with the Emeralds. As the obvious moniker indicates, he’s a more feral version of Sonic with dense fur, claws, and fangs. And most notably, his legs are not as useful as they normally are. Instead, Sonic flails his arms around to batter his enemies with a wild melee fighting style.

When hints of this new form were leaked last March, the reactions were expectantly akin to Sega taking a knife to our mothers while calmly asking us to clean up the mess afterward. Fans were upset and immovable not only because they would be changing Sonic’s appearance but probably his personality too; making him angrier or, to the most extreme, an actual animal without self-awareness. They didn’t want their precious hedgehog to change even an iota.

Funnily enough, Sonic shares the same sentiment.

He ignores Chip’s amusing name for him, “Mr. Monster Guy”, gets riled up once he discovers that the change will occur each night and is, for probably the first time in the canon’s history, depressed that the dreaded Amy Rose didn’t recognize him.

One would think that if your own franchise character is forced into something he would vehemently disagree with, it would be best not to tread down that road at least for his fandom’s sake. But had Hashimoto, his creator, not stood up for the idea and fallen for worldwide peer pressure to get rid of it, very important reminders and realizations that both hedgehog and fandom needed to face wouldn’t have been put forth. For one, Sonic is indeed fallible from directly suffering from Eggman’s ploys and that his own narcissism can be his downfall.

For once, part of the reason Sonic’s newest venture exists is his own fault. He threw his nose in the air and made light of Eggman’s inferiority instead of taking the swift action he is known for and stopping him outright. And in the end, he was robbed of very the thing that gives him the bragging rights he abused in the first place. No longer is he the fastest thing alive. He is now slower and, in his mind, a horrific beast.

And it’s something he can’t stand. With so much emotion pent up about his embarrassing defacement, Sonic is prepared to smash the nearest thing he can get his hands on. Thus his fighting style is no-holds-barred, almost mindless. With a little button mashing, he can take even the most unassuming squish balls of enemies and start slamming them with a force that appears bone-shattering.

With the numerous ways the Werehog not only can break an opponent in half with his bare hands but will resort to doing, this behavior goes far beyond a simple polarization of speed. It’s arguably far worse than Shadow’s decision to use weapons. This is sheer barbarism, something that Sonic is not known for.

And that seems to be a problem for everyone; The current games aren’t “Sonic“ in some way, shape or form. But what exactly is Sonic? Is there a universal definition of it? No, the better question is thus:

Is this mystical definition of Sonic infinitely unchanging?

For all of the disgust Sonic expressed for the form, he was still stuck with it and so were we. Completion required its existence. Enemies had to be defeated, buildings scaled, doors unlocked, and moon medals scoured for. But even as completely different as the Werehog is to his normal self and even as angry as he seems, his character is the same. Chip proudly boasts that Sonic is immune to the mental hold Dark Gaia has on other forms of life because he's too strong-willed to succumb, and that he will always have the ability to stand up and fight for what he believes in. Whether he or even we liked it or not, the fact is thus:

The Werehog is Sonic.

Fans, gamers, and even the various directors of the series themselves have pulled their hair out and screamed to each other about what the true vision of Sonic is, what he should be and what he should be able to do. But the ultimate realization is that Sonic is not just this one thing and, if Sega's insistence that the Werehog was necessary to even let the game make the shelves in the first place, perhaps he cannot be. It's simply undefinable.

Sonic The Werehog is merely the temporary side-effect of Eggman's latest scheme. But underneath all of that shaggy fur is the playable personification of Sonic's infallibility and faults, his temper, and the violent depths at which he could possibly resort to in the need to let out his emotions. It's a great exploration of personality, forcing the hedgehog to begrudgingly experience and finally accept a change that he was powerless to stop, something he himself did not ask for. He is also us: The current batch of Sonic fans and gamers who must eventually accept dealing with the series that we all love (and hate) for different reasons and its own changes as well as change as a whole.

I predict that I could continue on rattling away like the fangirl I am, but I hope I've gotten my point across, or at least maybe given an opinion that is constantly mocked and devalued some semblance of credence. It's quite disheartening to see people dismiss the Werehog as bastardization or a mistake or ascribe a lack of intelligence to the developer without just taking a second to look at this from another angle.

It aggravates me moreso when people suggest that the supposed problem would've been fixed had they inserted Knuckles in, as if almost the same exact gameplay would have been made significantly better if it had only had a different character model instead of gameplay alterations. Petty hypocrisy, I say, and just more testament to the fact that the vitriol the Werehog has received since before we knew what it even looked or played like is so melodramatic and silly that it's embarrassing. Try taking a cue from Sonic and look at things a bit more positively.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Arrow]

^ Haha, I disagree, but your enthusiasm is EMMENCE. <3

I, literally, cannot play the werehog levels. This is a combination of being stupid, impatient and unenthused with the character or it's enviroment.

[Nepenthe]

'Immense,' you mean? Well, I consider that a kudo, so thank you. xD

Understand that I completely empathize your point of view, especially upon starting a new game file for the heck of it wherein I couldn't manuever like I was used to doing. It was quite aggravating to experience, but then again so is the gaming community's bullheaded opposition to the form. Part of me is enticed to believe that it wasn't given a fair shake just because, and subsequently apathy or general dislike compounded into something as ridiculous and over the top as my post. Hate it or love it, surely. Worst character/idea ever? A bastardization? Not Sonic? That's shit from a bull, good sir. xP

[Octarine]

Exquisitely detailed post.

I'm no great fan of the ideas behind the Werehog's existence, but I'm not exceptionally offended by it. Actually, it was implemented about as well as such a concept could have been: as you mentioned, Sonic's personality only saw change as a result of his own reactions to his physical appearance and not so he could BLOODRAGE, and that removed most of my distaste for the concept. Like most of the game's elements, the Werehog was handled in a pleasantly silly way, and while I'll never love it, I certainly don't hate it. Even the gameplay mechanics weren't too troublesome for me: Werehog levels were a bit jarringly slow after the speed of the daytime levels, sure, but they weren't too badly constructed, apart from the balancing segments.

It aggravates me moreso when people suggest that the supposed problem would've been fixed had they inserted Knuckles in, as if almost the same exact gameplay would have been made significantly better if it had only had a different character model instead of gameplay alterations. Petty hypocrisy, I say, and just more testament to the fact that the vitriol the Werehog has received since before we knew what it even looked or played like is so melodramatic and silly that it's embarrassing. Try taking a cue from Sonic and look at things a bit more positively.

The thing about that idea that really boggles my mind is how the game would work with Knuckles' tiny reach. The Werehog was able to function the way it did in platforming and in combat because it had those giant, stretchy arms, so the mechanics would have to be retooled a bit for Knuckles to make sense. It'd be interesting to see, actually.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Octarine

[Arrow]

I mispelled immense to illustrate my stupidity, honest.

I think Unleashed is a few steps in the right direction, but a giant leap back with the werehog thing. I feel like they have now produced more spinoff ideas than solid, mainline, standard stories or concepts and it's now hard to tell which is which.

Explaining why the werehog is bad is difficult. It is the kind of thing that fans create. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I saw feral-like Sonic characters long before werehog over deviantart. So what's bad about that? It's hard to explain if it doesn't just leap out at you as being weird or wrong for the official franchise to create something like that. If they released a game where Sonadow was a main part of the story, I'd not be surprised. (Minor sarcasm there.)

I think that Sonic, alone, is a strong enough character and his relationship with immediate characters such as Eggman, Tails... Knuckles and Amy at a push, should be enough a strong story - but instead of taking the time and effort to produce something, they take the easy way out and crap out bad cliche ideas, and they have been since SA2. Despite adoring SA2, Shadow is the start of such "cheap and easy" stories which require less and less thought. There's nothing wrong with this, in limited doses, but it's the Sonic franchise main produce now.

[Nepenthe]

The thing about that idea that really boggles my mind is how the game would work with Knuckles' tiny reach. The Werehog was able to function the way it did in platforming and in combat because it had those giant, stretchy arms, so the mechanics would have to be retooled a bit for Knuckles to make sense. It'd be interesting to see, actually.

This was a point I missed-- That the Werehog and Knuckles aren't equally interchangeable. You'll have to make some sacrifices for one to take the place of another, which makes that solution all the more mind-boggling.

As for extending Knuckles' reach, I think they could work that out with a combination of giving him dashing and charging abilities akin to what we caught glimpse of in Heroes along with implementing part of the Werehog's reach to emphasize the cartoony battle style he had. Both are wild brawlers, so it wouldn't be a stretch to use the Werehog as a base for potential Knuckles gameplay.

But if you ask me, I don't think they would have used any major brawling aspect if Knuckles had been used anyways. Outside of Heroes and the fighting games where it was there for arbitration, Knuckles hasn't had any gameplay that centered mostly on beating up enemies. He's always been heavily platform and exploration-oriented with his ability to punch existing because it's a character trait. xP

I mispelled immense to illustrate my stupidity, honest.

D'aww, you're not stupid.

Just simple-minded. There's a huge difference!

I think Unleashed is a few steps in the right direction, but a giant leap back with the werehog thing. I feel like they have now produced more spinoff ideas than solid, mainline, standard stories or concepts and it's now hard to tell which is which.

You think so? Sonic's been more predictable and planted since Adventure more often than the fanbase gives him credit for, with only Unleashed being the main combo breaker in terms of gameplay and level design. You can always count on the Adventure style of regular Sonic gameplay that will be juxtaposed against a slower and more methodological style of gameplay for story purposes and padding. You can always count on Eggman being involved with a large, apocalyptic beast that will inevitably destroy the earth if not stopped. You can always count on a super battle at the end of the game with the monster in question. You can always count on new characters, bottomless pits and an annoying camera, IGN losing their fucking minds, etc..

The new games aren't really that disjointed. The only thing that has been changing are the tones and what the new gameplay style is, which are relatively balanced or perhaps minor when put against everything else that Sega's been carrying over from the Adventure series.

Explaining why the werehog is bad is difficult. It is the kind of thing that fans create. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I saw feral-like Sonic characters long before werehog over deviantart. So what's bad about that? It's hard to explain if it doesn't just leap out at you as being weird or wrong for the official franchise to create something like that. If they released a game where Sonadow was a main part of the story, I'd not be surprised. (Minor sarcasm there.)

Hmm. The fanon complaint hasn't sat well with me for as long as it's been used. I understand that it implies an unnecessary level of ridiculousness, but at the same time, such comparisons are inevitable. We're far more involved in exploring, dissecting, and analyzing the universe than Sonic Team's ever been, and thus we've beaten them to the punch. If we're going to allow them to explore different aesthetic avenues, we shouldn't dismiss them all on the basis of, "Well, the fans did it, so it sucks." The way I see it, it's just a cover for simply saying that an idea they've used doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of Sonic. That doesn't give Sega's stab at an idea any less validity for existing; Just different strokes for different folks.

Regardless though, if you're having a hard time explaining why something is bad, mmmayhaps it's really not as bad as you were originally making it out to be?

I think that Sonic, alone, is a strong enough character and his relationship with immediate characters such as Eggman, Tails... Knuckles and Amy at a push, should be enough a strong story - but instead of taking the time and effort to produce something, they take the easy way out and crap out bad cliche ideas, and they have been since SA2. Despite adoring SA2, Shadow is the start of such "cheap and easy" stories which require less and less thought. There's nothing wrong with this, in limited doses, but it's the Sonic franchise main produce now.

Sonic always was and always will be cliche' and unknown for thoughtful story, though. His very personality and Sega's attempts to market him as "cool" are proof enough of that, and said concepts certainly didn't go over well with old and grizzled adults then as the current storytelling methods do now.

But I don't deny that the basics are actually there for a really great story. In fact, it's something I champion more often than not in Sonic movie threads. But why exactly does this bar Sega from taking sillier routes and making them work well? I like to believe that Sonic's universe is pliable enough to comfortably house a whole host of aesthetic and story-telling devices without anyone giving too much of a fuss. Potential and variety is great.

[SuperStingray]

My favorite level in the Sonic Adventure series is probobly Crazy Gadget, and most people hate that stage it seems, so maybe I have odd tastes.

Worry not, for you are not alone.