Devil's Advocate: Sonic Unleashed is MUCH better then Sonic Adventure

[JezMM]

I have to say, I think Werehog is a lot more fun once fully leveled up. If they had made him around that sort of power from the start it would have been more fun. The enemies level up at a slightly faster pace than you on story mode though, especially if you don't realise just how much you should focus on leveling up combat and strength at the start. In fact, on story replays I now always put ALL my exp into Werehog, I ignore day Sonic entirely.

As it is, the first slog through story is very slow-going as Werehog due to the lengthy fights.

[Tornado]

Take out the werehog crap and you have a game ten times better than Sonic Adventure.

Without the Werehog you would have a game so shallow that it would probably about an hour long to beat if you were lucky on your playthroughs.

[Lightspeed Jack]

Well with Sonic Unleashed Sonic Team created the perfect 3-D Sonic game but didn't have time to fully develop it into a full game so instead tacked on some god of war for kids sections. I didn't think they were terrible but it doesn't fit well with the faced paced sonic levels and is not really developed well enough. That said I had a blast playing the game. I love both games I can't really decide between them, Sonic Adventure does have a superior story and they call Eggman Robotnik so I guess it wins for me, but only by a tiny bit.

[skyblaze]

It's been years since I've played Adventure... though i remember it being somewhat of a chore compared to Adventure 2 (Battle) which i purchased and played simultaneously on Game Cube. I did have fun though, no doubt about that. To me Unleashed has indisputably been THE shit as far as Sonic's stages have been concerned. I own both Wii and PS3 copies and to this day play them despite having beaten them months ago (year ago in Wii's case). Just to give a scope to anyone who cares: remember how maxing out at least one of the Werehog's stats on its final level took 99 bars? I completed that just doing Sonic stages alone (which only yielded a bar or two each). That ends my rant. Yeah, I'm new... what up SSMB-ers

[XavierRussell]

The problem is that you're never given enough notice to even be skeptical, let alone act accordingly. It amazes me that some people just plain still don't get this yet.

Look man, all of this is subjective. You say there wasn't enough time, I say there was enough time. You boost into something and are outraged and blame the game, I boost into something and just remember to not do that next time. We obviously just feel too differently about this concept XD

That's not the point I was trying to make. You can have a simple game that's also unfair. What a world of difference one word makes.

Again, The only thing I thought was unfair was Eggmanland.

I'm curious of what your sample size was. It can't possibly have been anywhere in even the hundreds, and considering the fanbase alone numbers in the millions... yeah, you can imagine how much opinion alone weighs in, that said. Also bear in mind that while I have said I do enjoy the game, that doesn't stop me from admitting the game has fucking serious problems.

Well of course I don't go around testing people with Unleashed, just a few of my friends. And sure, I know my opinion does hold much weight, but I could say the same for you. you act like you're spouting off facts, when you're just sharing your opinion as I am.

The funny thing is, Scrap Brain in Sonic 1 managed exactly this without being obsessively cheap all throughout.

Don't get me started on Scrap Brain! I have hated that level since the beginning and STILL don't have all it's paths and traps memorized. Whenever I play that level I'm losing rings every 3 seconds. You wanna talk about not being able to see and react to what's coming? That's Scrap Brain. But, I won't blame the design, because now that I'm older I understand Sonic 1 is a slower platformer and I'm not supposed to try and plow through Scrap Brain like a speed demon. I still hate it though. That goes for Metropolis too.

It was me who posted those videos, btw. For the most part those were just a visual aid to help point out the obscenely bad level design in certain areas. If you want an example of how the game mistakenly teaches you to use the boost nonstop though, you could always take nearly any level before Empire City (assume Apotos for sake of example), which allows you to boost through completely unpunished for the most part without even attempting a gradual curve of learning when it comes to cheap death pits. Of course, the issue could've been avoided altogether by doing away with fake difficulty completely, but the boost is still a big contributer to that nonetheless.

Again, you say "Cheap death pits" and I just don't agree. Outside Eggmanland I say there was nothing cheap about anything and I welcomed the new challenges with open arms. I crazier the stage is the better I feel when I speed through it perfectly. And I can remember on my first playthrough, I was getting hit so much that I hardly had the ring energy to boost at all. So take that into consideration when talking about new players.

Good to see someone's on the same page in this regard, at least.

The problem isn't so much what the game directly tells you to do, but what it leads you to believe you can easily get away with in its early stages, then mercilessly punishing you for proceeding as expected. Hell, the freaking boxart has "Speed Returns" plastered onto the back of the bloody box - an example that comes up before you've even put the disc in your console..

Well i feel like speed never left in the first place. They just turned the dial up to 11. Again, I just disagree with that opinion of yours. Playing the game I never felt like the game was leading me to believe anything. it was just the same ol' trial and error i've come to expect from Sonic games, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I can agree with though, is that it wouldn't have hurt to have more tutorial messages or something like that. It doesn't bother me one but personally though.

I find the criticisms that Unleashed throws unpredictable obstacles to be weak; as many have pointed out the classics do the same thing, with Sonic 2 being the the worst offender which is ironic as many believe this to be the greatest Sonic game of all-time. At many times in Sonic 1 even, a decent amount of trail, error, luck and memory are required; you jump and because the game is 2-d you cant see the bottom of the stage and you unexpectedly you fall unto spikes, badnik with spikes, fire, or heaven forbid a bottomless pit.

Furthermore, i don't see Eggmanland being that different from Metropolis zone, or Scrap-brain zone. I recently played those levels after years of not playing them and did remarkably bad.

In the end I believe different attitudes of what a Sonic game should/shouldn't play like and how "cheap" a difficulty Is will guide peoples subjective opinions about the game, whether the game be great,good,decent,mediocre,bad or abysmal.

Agreed.

Well for one thing, neither of those have platforming made needlessly difficult due to the fact you can't see your own shadow properly. Those two do indeed have their own forms of insta-death, but neither are caused by a complete inability to actually tell where you're about to land after a difficult jump. I'd argue more, but the rest of my points have been made pretty clear throughout the last two pages.

Is this really an argument? Your shadow? This never crossed my mind at all. Why would this cause you to miss a platform? I just don't get it. It sounds to me like you just had a hell of a time playing the first time and took it personally.

Look, I don't wanna argue or make anyone but upset. i believe we should give credit where credit is due. Sonic Adventure 1 and it's sequel were great games. SA1 did a good job of putting Sonic in 3D so it'll always be considered a great game for that. But 10 years later we have Unleashed, and seriously it blows it out of the water in everyday. I really feel like theres no contest. As a matter of fact these games might be too different to even compare. I felt Unleashed was a totally new direction for a Sonic game, so now it kinda feels like we're comparing Sonic Shuffle to Sonic Spinball. Which is better is all opinion, so why don't we just acknowledge what both games have done for the franchise?

[Tornado]

Sounds a little circular. I don't feel the game, maybe aside from the were-hog has fatal flaws.

Look man, all of this is subjective. You say there wasn't enough time, I say there was enough time.

Again, you say "Cheap death pits" and I just don't agree. Outside Eggmanland I say there was nothing cheap about anything and I welcomed the new challenges with open arms.

You two realize that it really isn't up to debate, right? It isn't a matter of "in my opinion these weren't/were cheap," because fairness in the terms that me and Blacklightning have been talking about are objective standards. The only argument you can actually form is "these were cheap but I'm okay with that." For example, Mario Kart Wii is a very fun game and pretty difficult; but it is still one of the cheapest, most unfair piles of bullshit I've ever played.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Tornado

[Blacklightning]

Look man, all of this is subjective.

I refer you to sciency reaction experiment by Phos I mentioned earlier:

I suspect Kintor is going to ignore this, but I bothered to find it, so I'm going to post it anyway. I am going to use science to demonstrate that Sonic Unleashed requires prior knowledge of upcoming obstacles for progression. Human Benchmark has found that the average human reaction time is 215 milliseconds. Knowing this, I downloaded

video of Dragon Road onto my computer. At approximately 1:29 seconds, there is a hole in the center rail that is obscured from view until frame # 2625. Were Sonic on the center rail, he would have hit the spikes and probably have died at frame # 2640. That means the hazard was on screen for 500 milliseconds before it would have killed the player. Were that the only factor, that would be enough time, but there are other factors as well. First off, the rail transfer move takes approximately four frames before Sonic is high enough to clear the spikes - That's 133 milliseconds. That means that the player would have 367 milliseconds to react - still enough time for at least half off all people. But that's still not all - traits innate to videogames add a certain amount of lagto the response from the controller. Sonic Unleashed runs at 30 FPS, the best it can possible be is an extra hundred milliseconds. That leaves 267 milliseconds to react Incedentially, I just took the test and my average was 261. Regardless, I can take heart that it wouldn't matter anyway, as most HDTVs add a frame or two of lag on top of however long it took to get the signal there, meaning that there is 235 milliseconds to react. But that's still below the average... an average that was calculated based on a test for which there is only one action to be taken on reaction to a single stimulus known in advance. This is something you could do, IF you knew what to expect. In Sonic Unleashed, you are still required to choose an action to take after identifying it. That's why the UK's highway code assumes a reaction time of 680 milliseconds, you need to recognize a situation, decide what to do, and then carry it out. Even assuming half of that, 340 milliseconds, that's still not fast enough to react to obstacles. Sonic Unleashed also has a lot of motion blur, making identifying obstacles even harder.

And I only picked this one because it was easy to measure, not because it was particularly unfair.

Well of course I don't go around testing people with Unleashed, just a few of my friends. And sure, I know my opinion does hold much weight, but I could say the same for you. you act like you're spouting off facts, when you're just sharing your opinion as I am.

I gave a freaking video-assisted low-down of most of the bad features of one level, the expected reaction times and just overall cheap level design pertaining to fake difficulty, and somehow that comes off as "opinion"? What more do you want me to do?

Don't get me started on Scrap Brain! I have hated that level since the beginning and STILL don't have all it's paths and traps memorized. Whenever I play that level I'm losing rings every 3 seconds.

The difference here, however, is that Scrap Brain doesn't typically kill you instantly - and when it does, it comes at the player's own fault more or less - I guess you could argue not being able to see a bottomless pit from up high, but falling off platforms in a platformer is generally a big mistake as a general rule of thumb anyway.

Is this really an argument? Your shadow? This never crossed my mind at all. Why would this cause you to miss a platform? I just don't get it. It sounds to me like you just had a hell of a time playing the first time and took it personally.

A traditional platforming shadow dictates your exact position in the horizontal axis, as a means for compensating for lack of depth perception. If there's no shadow, you can't gauge where you're going to land, meaning mis-aligned jumps are a hell of a lot more common. That's not even the worst of it. There's the instant-death QTEs, the absurdly bad sled sequence that somehow manages to be even worse than Holaska, and the overly dexterity-oriented pipe platforming bits just to name a few. Eggmanland is only memorable in that it is a legendary mess of fake difficulty. Edited January 16, 2010 by Blacklightning

[Phos]

Not even Ninja Gaiden requires you to be opperating at the threashhold of reaction time for such long sustained periods of time... Assuming the spikes or whatever aren't motion blurred beyond recognition!

The enemies that the Werehog fought seemed to be barely paying attention, often waiting seconds at a time before beginning an unbelivably obvious wind up animation, but I did find something to like about it. Specifically, the Unleashe gauge. Unlike the devil trigger mechanic it rips off, the Unleash gauge can be sustained for long periods of time by quickly killing enemies. They really should have expanded on that, because that was one of two things the werehog did that hadn't been done before and better. The flying enemies that were hard to hit thanks to the strange collision detection didn't help things either. The other is his dashing heavy attack. His platforming bits had a kind of unfinished feel to them, it seemed too methodical and the werehog's movements too measured and predefinded. Not only does this make it a rather ho hum experience, but it also falls appart more easily when things don't go right, and guess what, more bottomless pits. I also could have done without the dial a combo system. It probably didn't help things that I had been playing Ninja Gaiden the week before SU's release.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Phos

[Kintor]

I find these persistent complaints about Sonic Unleashed to be completely baseless and wrong. Games are much like an art form, as a medium of entertainment what we experience is simply a matter of perception. Even when the same game is being considered the only truth of the matter is that there is no objective truth to be found; two people may experience exactly the same content and have entirely different experiences. It is wrong to try and debase a game over a single subjective gameplay mechanic or any other feature. A game is more then the some it’s part, no idea can stand on its own and at the same time no idea is reason enough to condemn the whole product, for that same idea is just a matter of opinion. Do not just look at a games code try to understand the creative vision which brought the product to life.

In that sense, Sonic Unleashed is not a hard game to master and neither is it hard to find enjoyment from the game. Each experience is an entirely subjective one, the product of individual perceptions brought about by different aspects of the game, different aspects will stand out for different people. Even so, I think it is important that the player gets an intuitive sense of how to play the game. I don’t think that anyone truly plays a game by focusing on just one aspect. A game is played best when the player responds to game like this sort of movement is entirely naturally. In other words, being able to play the game without having to think about how to play the game; a task Sonic Unleashed succeeds in. I understand that the idea of a game being subjective is hard to grasp, just I think understanding how other people may play a game differently, preventing an objective or rather shared experience, may help illustrate this concept.

I think that this idea can further be expressed by way of analogy, a story of how someone might play Sonic Unleashed. At its most basic, a game is played with a controller. When learning a game for the first time we all have to learn which buttons to press, e.g., when I first wanted Sonic to jump I thought “press the A button”. However, as I came more proficient in controlling Sonic my idea of how to play the game changed. Now, I thought less of what button to press and instead focused on which movement worked best. As an example, when I want to use the quickstep I don’t “quick press the button” only “I need to quickstep here”. Ultimately, I think playing a Sonic game becomes less about playing the game at all. No longer is it a matter of thinking about where Sonic has to go at all, it’s more like: *Jump* *forwad+boost* *quickstep* *jump* etc. This is what I mean when I say that I find playing Sonic Unleashed to be an intuitive experience.

I’ve said all this because I want people to appreciate that games are not going to be an objective experience. So much of what we do is going to come down to individual perceptions, no one’s experiences while playing a Sonic game has ever been identical. I think that Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay mechanics do have merit in their own right, that the boost was a good idea. However, I think that it is wrong to try and hold it up in isolation. You really can’t judge how something like that will work unless you can see it interact with every other part of the whole. I really do love Sonic Unleashed; I think that each and every part of the product helped make a great game. Sonic’s move set helped create a really interesting experience, allowing Sonic great freedom of movement, performing the kind of stunts that have until now been left for the cartoons to illustrate. I also say that each level was superb, beautiful to behold and actually enriched by each devious deathtrap. Not to forget other details like the cutscenes and writing, which I have barely mentioned here. Sonic Unleashed is well made game.

I see Sonic Unleashed as the culmination of a decade of ideas, offering one of the best examples of how Sonic can operate in a 3D environment. I think that Sonic Unleashed is one of the best Sonic games ever made; regardless of whatever happens now with Project Needlemouse I think that Sega would do well to build up what they have accomplished with Sonic Unleashed.

[Arrow]

I think the best thing about Unleashed is this the mixed reviews!

I find these persistent complaints about Sonic Unleashed to be completely baseless and wrong. Games are much like an art form, as a medium of entertainment what we experience is simply a matter of perception. Even when the same game is being considered the only truth of the matter is that there is no objective truth to be found; two people may experience exactly the same content and have entirely different experiences. It is wrong to try and debase a game over a single subjective gameplay mechanic or any other feature. A game is more then the some it’s part, no idea can stand on its own and at the same time no idea is reason enough to condemn the whole product, for that same idea is just a matter of opinion. Do not just look at a games code try to understand the creative vision which brought the product to life.

I think you're bang on here, but I also think games can and should be extensively reviewed by people who "know best". Not because said people know best, but because they criticise them by regonised conventions of what exacly makes a good game, film, car, wine... Whatever the produce may be.

There is something inherently wrong with taking a good, solid character, and giving them such a ready made cliche curse like that. The fact that they even felt the need to just doesn't rest well with me, in the slightest.

I have the PS2 version. What makes the game unplayable in my opinion is the dead spots between each level where you get to speak to cardboard cut outs. The other thing is how many times the werehog has run misribly over the edge of a platform when all I wanted to do was edge forward to see if the camera would bloody move... I also find it almost impossible to swing from things and grab new things with the werehogbut there's a good chance that's entirely me being useless, because as anyone who's seen me play all games bar Tetris, I'm painfully bad. XD But there's a lot of games that I still really enjoy playing, but for me Unleashed is just not enjoyable, or even frustrating, it's so dull between levels that I just put it down and the werehog levels go on and on and on for eternity. I also think the music is pretty poor, which I know clashes with majority vote.

[Cortez]

And once again Blacklightning and Phos have provided COLD HARD FACTS that have been shrugged off as 'you're wrong'.

I give up, I give up on this whole fucking topic. I adore Adventure but can admit that the game has huge issues, you Unleashed fans deny any flaws the game has demanding that it's either just opinion or that it's wrong even when video evidence and scientific evidence is shown. Why can't you accept this game isn't perfect?

Do not just look at a games code try to understand the creative vision which brought the product to life.

You mean 'HURRRR MAKE SONIC RUN FAST AND BE A WEREWOLF IT WILL SELL MILLIONS' because Sonic Team seemingly didn't put much more thought than that into this game.

EDIT: This wasn't directed at you Arrow, I didn't even see your post before I typed this.

[JezMM]

I give up, I give up on this whole fucking topic. I adore Adventure but can admit that the game has huge issues, you Unleashed fans deny any flaws the game has demanding that it's either just opinion or that it's wrong even when video evidence and scientific evidence is shown. Why can't you accept this game isn't perfect?

Hey, don't group me with them. D8 My arguement is that the stuff people percieve as flaws are all things the game doesn't properly educate you on (such as not boosting all the time). And I'm not afraid to admit that THAT is a major flaw of the game.

And Werehog levels are definately too long on the first playthrough.

[Blacklightning]

I find these persistent complaints about Sonic Unleashed to be completely baseless and wrong.

I only had to read this part of the post to realize that not only are you still talking crap, but that you are completely ignoring damn nearly every single post that's been directed at you and your ilk thus far. We've bombarded you with all kinds of textual explanations ranging from simple, basic explanations of first-time player expectations to outright spelling out exactly how much the game expects of you, full level walkthroughs outlining the exact instances of trial and error as well as other forms of fake difficulty, and even an experiment backed by scientific fact brought back from a previous thread of this very nature, from which you convienently ignored back when that was first posted, too. Baseless? You couldn't possibly get a base any stronger if you coated it with steel. If you think we're somehow in the wrong here, why don't you fucking well prove it and provide some actual counterpoints to the arguments provided to you instead of completely wasting everyone else's time with unrelated tangents and plugging your fingers in your ears screaming "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING FUCK YOU ALL" in pointless tl;dr form. Is that really too much to ask? Really? I've met some pretty stubborn fans in my time, but you have to be the first of all of them ever to completely ignore everything the other party says.

It is wrong to try and debase a game over a single subjective gameplay mechanic or any other feature.

Bullshit. Stormrise was ruined singlehandedly by its method of switching units in an RTS, Black Knight was ruined singlehandedly by its incredibly lazy, tacked on waggle controls that could have been done better with a button press, and by christ could Too Human have been a much better game had it not set the attack scheme to the fucking right control stick. I fail to see what makes Unleashed any different in this regard, even given its stellar graphics and visual design.

Each experience is an entirely subjective one, the product of individual perceptions brought about by different aspects of the game, different aspects will stand out for different people.

Already addressed. Regardless of whether or not that is true, the expected reflexes from the player (as proven scientifically by Phos I might add) are above or equal to the actual minimum range, and that's assuming you're dealing with one element of the game at a time - which almost universally, you're not, if the motion blur has anything to say.

In other words, being able to play the game without having to think about how to play the game; a task Sonic Unleashed succeeds in.

Prove it. You say this every single bloody time, yet have never elaborated on it beyond "it exists, lol". Sorry, but with the bullcrap you've already pulled thus far and the overwhelming evidence you have yet to even comment on yet, it ain't exactly something we can just take your word for.

I think that this idea can further be expressed by way of analogy, a story of how someone might play Sonic Unleashed. At its most basic, a game is played with a controller. When learning a game for the first time we all have to learn which buttons to press, e.g., when I first wanted Sonic to jump I thought “press the A button”. However, as I came more proficient in controlling Sonic my idea of how to play the game changed. Now, I thought less of what button to press and instead focused on which movement worked best.

Alright, stop it all right here. "Which movement worked best" just so happens to consist heavily of holding the X button until you hit a speed trap. Take a look at Apotos, that can literally be completed one-handed with only small exceptions. Look at Mazuri, where the only unintentional death is a Homing Attack glitch (missing the swinging poles and diving straight into a death pit). Look at Spagonia, in which most of its obstacles can simply be boosted through.

Now look at Empire City, which abruptly removes the guard rails for no apparent reason on a specific curve knowing you'll boost right into it. One of these things is not like the other, hmm?

I think that Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay mechanics do have merit in their own right, that the boost was a good idea.

Nobody even said that it was a bad idea - only that it was so poorly implemented that it transformed gameplay into petty trial and error. Even further proof you simply aren't paying attention.

That's all I'll comment on, as yet again the remainder of your post is unrelated garbage stretched across several paragraphs that really doesn't answer any questions aimed at you.

[JezMM]

Now look at Empire City, which abruptly removes the guard rails for no apparent reason on a specific curve knowing you'll boost right into it. One of these things is not like the other, hmm?

I'm going to defend this one - the segment before this involves dodging bombs with quick-step. If you were boosting through that, or boost after every single obstacle is passed, then I have no sympathy for your death. While I don't remember all of my first playthrough, I vividly remember never messing that up first time.

[XavierRussell]

Stop getting so worked up. Ok so even taking the scientific breakdown into consideration, I still don't see such a glaring flaw that makes SA a better game. Basically you said that scientifically speaking there isn't enough time to react. Ok fine, so that means you're going to hit something, or fall in a pit. What I'M saying is that the fact that I'm very likely to die because of that during my first playthrough (it's a non-issue now, with everything memorized) is not enough to say SA is a better game. I feel like you're making it too complicated, and as I've said before I've ALWAYS seen Sonic games in this way.

If I hit something, Jump/dodge it next time.

If I fall in a pit, Jump/dodge it next time.

And again, if you're getting hit that much, you aren't going to be doing much boosting anyways.

Once you learn a stage playing through it is way more fun than anything in SA1. I don't expect to ever run through a stage perfectly the first time in any Sonic game, so I don't understand why you're getting so upset about taking a hit or a death. Especially when lives are thrown at you like candy.

That's why I feel like it's subjective. After i took the time to learn a stage I can dominate it and have a blast, whereas in SA after I learn a stage I can dominate it and be slightly entertained. As far as the presentation, art direction, enviroments, VAing, and IN MY OPINION gameplay of both games is concerned, Unleashed wins by a mile.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see the issue with dying a few times. A good example is I think Dragon Road act 4 or 5 (DLC). It's a stage entire over water and its like 3 or 5 short laps with the crazyiest obstacle setup i've ever seen, and multiple paths. My first time playing it I died probably a million times, but that stage has lives littered around like every 5 seconds. So much so that it's become the best way to quickly get lives that I've seen, and again, playing it perfectly smashes anything in SA.

[Kintor]

It’s a shame things have becomes so vitriolic. As it stands I do think that I’m am deserving of such criticism. I have made every attempt to answer each and every response to my points. Quite simply, I thought it would be best that I created one larger post that answers the complaints of many individuals at once. I understand that my posts have been long, some one you may not see the need to read all of what I said but I hope that you do. I’m sure that your concerns have already been adequately answered, even if I didn’t make mention of your idea in the first paragraph or two. Still, I think that what I say has had value to this discussion, listen and you just might appreciate Sonic Unleashed a little more.

I maintain that Sonic Unleashed is free of the flaws attributed to it here. Conversely, I think that the ‘facts’ presented here have been anything but. This so called objective view of Sonic Unleashed is wrong, as analysis it is fundamentally flawed. It fails to take into account individual experiences, the idea that people are not the same – they will have different experiences. Objectivity cannot be established is the results cannot be replicated. This is true for Sonic Unleashed, the experiences you have had with a game cannot be given to another person. Moreover, this same ‘objective’ does not consider the whole game. This is an approach that looks at single parts in isolation, unable to see how they contribute to the whole. I think that a ‘bigger picture’ view is the only way to truly understand the game.

As always, understanding a video game, understanding why we feel a certain way about a game, can’t happen until it is understand that things are very much a matter of perception. At its most fundamental this is the idea that we are all individuals, each with our own unique viewpoint. When someone plays a game they do so in a unique way, reacting according to their own personal tastes and viewing it all from their own inevitably biased view of the world. Experiences aren’t like memory in a computer, they are neural connection shaped by how you play the game and why; not how the game plays you; experiences can’t be replicated or otherwise copied to another person. We may all be having a discussion right now but remember that we are debating a form of entertainment, so much of what we believe simply comes down to our own ideas of what makes something fun.

This difference of perceptions holds true when considering Sonic Unleashed directly. I’ve said before that new element can stand on its own, that a game is more then the some of its part. I see strong level design within Sonic Unleashed, each part be it trap or loop-de-loop helps create the whole experience. Each is idea is good in itself but the game truly shines when you see these concepts working together. This approach must also be applied in a larger sense, the focus must be on every level and not the eccentricities of any single one. I believe the idea is put variety into each level, to stop the player from getting bored. It is only natural that certain levels feature a mechanic more prominently, other levels will always other a different take on the overall gameplay. Everyone has their own favorite and for different reasons.

Both of the ideas I have described above help serve to illustrate how I view Sonic Unleashed. As much as anything else, I understand that there will be a difference of opinion, Sonic Unleashed as any of us understand is dependent on non- replicable individual experiences. Furthermore, I do not see how the game can be fully appreciated if most of its qualities are being ignored, it’s best to look at the whole not just part of the whole. This is why I think that every aspect of Sonic Unleashed should be considered. Out of all things to consider, the CGI and writing, just to name two examples, should also be appreciated; Sonic Unleashed wouldn’t be the game it is without them. I hope this offers a better understanding of why I love Sonic Unleashed.

[JezMM]

What people are saying Kintor, is that they can't enjoy "the game as a whole" because certain parts of it bog down the other parts.

They can't enjoy the level design as a whole because certain parts of it ruin the other parts. You forget, all the stuff they AREN'T criticising here? That stuff they (presumebly) enjoyed! It's just the specific things they are talking about. It's not that they are only focusing on the negative, but if you're saying why you don't like a game, you're not going to list through every feature and say what you liked and disliked. You're only going to focus on the dislikes.

Also, I'm sorry, I don't know what witchcraft allowed me to enjoy the game first time and not suffer from what he talked about, but Phos' arguement about reaction-time is science-based. That's nearly all cold, hard facts, as far as we know at least. There's not much to dispute.

[XavierRussell]

And once again Blacklightning and Phos have provided COLD HARD FACTS that have been shrugged off as 'you're wrong'.

I give up, I give up on this whole fucking topic. I adore Adventure but can admit that the game has huge issues, you Unleashed fans deny any flaws the game has demanding that it's either just opinion or that it's wrong even when video evidence and scientific evidence is shown. Why can't you accept this game isn't perfect?

You mean 'HURRRR MAKE SONIC RUN FAST AND BE A WEREWOLF IT WILL SELL MILLIONS' because Sonic Team seemingly didn't put much more thought than that into this game.

EDIT: This wasn't directed at you Arrow, I didn't even see your post before I typed this.

I never said the game didn't have flaws, i'm saying it's a better game than SA. The main thing i'm calling opinion on is whether the game is cheap and badly designed. It's already been proven that you're going to run into something/die while playing the first time. How you feel about that changes from person to person.

What people are saying Kintor, is that they can't enjoy "the game as a whole" because certain parts of it bog down the other parts.

They can't enjoy the level design as a whole because certain parts of it ruin the other parts. You forget, all the stuff they AREN'T criticising here? That stuff they (presumebly) enjoyed! It's just the specific things they are talking about. It's not that they are only focusing on the negative, but if you're saying why you don't like a game, you're not going to list through every feature and say what you liked and disliked. You're only going to focus on the dislikes.

Also, I'm sorry, I don't know what witchcraft allowed me to enjoy the game first time and not suffer from what he talked about, but Phos' arguement about reaction-time is science-based. That's nearly all cold, hard facts, as far as we know at least. There's not much to dispute.

See but I could enjoy the level design. I loved every level except Eggmanland. That's why this is all ultimately opinion, even with all the scientific proof. How you feel about taking a death every once in awhile changes from person to person. And I really did not care to get upset over it.

Edited January 16, 2010 by XavierRussell

[Phos]

Hey, don't group me with them. D8 My arguement is that the stuff people percieve as flaws are all things the game doesn't properly educate you on (such as not boosting all the time). And I'm not afraid to admit that THAT is a major flaw of the game.

And Werehog levels are definately too long on the first playthrough.

The first half of the game specifically teaches the player that boosting all the time will probably be fine, then spends the second half killing you for doing it. You know that missing guard rail in Empire City that Blacklightning brought up? There's a similar spot in Rooftop Run, but the game doesn't kill you for boosting there. I guess Hashimoto doesn't know who Pavlov is.

I have many other examples as well. With the exception of a tiny spot at the end, there is never a reason not to be boosting in Mazuri. It allele you to skip hazards you didn't even know about, the level sends you away from them if you're going fast enough.

[Solid SOAP]

Personally, I only boosted in levels when I knew the level 99% or when there were very little incoming obstacles to be scared of. I can survive pretty much every level now unharmed except Eggmanland and Adabat day now.

[Tornado]

I have made every attempt to answer each and every response to my points.

The main thing i'm calling opinion on is whether the game is cheap and badly designed. It's already been proven that you're going to run into something/die while playing the first time. How you feel about that changes from person to person.

But the fact that there are levels that are that way means that they are cheap. It really doesn't matter how much it effects you personally.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Tornado

[Chooch]

Personally, I only boosted in levels when I knew the level 99% or when there were very little incoming obstacles to be scared of. I can survive pretty much every level now unharmed except Eggmanland and Adabat day now.

Same, minus Adabat Day. I can get through that no prob too.

Boosting constantly is a matter of confidence, I'd say. If you're sure that you know the level well enough that you can boost and avoid all of its obstacles at breakneck speed then go ahead. If you aren't sure, don't.

The day stages seem to revolve around the concept that if you put a lot of effort into mastering them (by mastering the skills given to you) then you'll be rewarded accordingly. The difficulty of the stages crank up too fast, yeah, but once you get used to them they're a piece of cake. It's with any game that has a difficult segment, really.

It's almost as if the majority of the people in this topic want to make it seem like all the others are crazy for liking Sonic Unleashed. :\

Edited January 16, 2010 by Chooch

[JezMM]

The first half of the game specifically teaches the player that boosting all the time will probably be fine, then spends the second half killing you for doing it. You know that missing guard rail in Empire City that Blacklightning brought up? There's a similar spot in Rooftop Run, but the game doesn't kill you for boosting there. I guess Hashimoto doesn't know who Pavlov is.

I hate to do the patronising quoting oneself thing but... nonetheless:

I'm going to defend this one - the segment before this involves dodging bombs with quick-step. If you were boosting through that, or boost after every single obstacle is passed, then I have no sympathy for your death. While I don't remember all of my first playthrough, I vividly remember never messing that up first time.

And to be more specific:

The first half of the game specifically teaches the player that boosting all the time will probably be fine

I think it's a silly assumption of the player to assume that will always be the case, especially since outside of the later water segments, it never urges you to boost "for fun" with an on-screen prompt beyond the first three or so levels.

Also, keyword "probably be fine". Every single level, even Apotos, has at least one point where boosting carelessly will harm you. The spikes at the end, the gaps after the penultimate checkpoint, and the spikes on the first grinding section, not to mention several non-harming, but very unsatisfying-to-hit rubble piles that cause Sonic to ungracefully trip.

Hell, even the tutorial will send you into spikes if you aren't paying attention in the final section.

I personally think there's plenty warning that boosting does not equal winning, though judging by the overwhelming dislike for it not just in this topic but reviews in general, I do think the masses needed it to be spelled out for them.

Edited January 16, 2010 by JezMM

[Tornado]

It's almost as if the majority of the people in this topic want to make it seem like all the others are crazy for liking Sonic Unleashed. :\

You can like the game all you want (I like Mario Kart Wii, and it is no better when it comes to such nonsense). But don't put it on a pedestal as the pinnacle of modern game design, because it quite frankly isn't.

[Phos]

I think it's a silly assumption of the player to assume that will always be the case, especially since outside of the later water segments, it never urges you to boost "for fun" with an on-screen prompt beyond the first three or so levels.

I don't mean the game literally says, "You can boost here", I mean that the level design makes it obvious that it expects you to be boosting because there's nothing else to do and the game rewards the player for doing it. Also, three levels is one less than half the game.

Also, keyword "probably be fine". Every single level, even Apotos, has at least one point where boosting carelessly will harm you. The spikes at the end, the gaps after the penultimate checkpoint, and the spikes on the first grinding section, not to mention several non-harming, but very unsatisfying-to-hit rubble piles that cause Sonic to ungracefully trip.

One hit in a decidedly different situation isn't going to do much to dispel Unleashed's classical conditioning.

I personally think there's plenty warning that boosting does not equal winning, though judging by the overwhelming dislike for it not just in this topic but reviews in general, I do think the masses needed it to be spelled out for them.

What they need is for Sonic to not be a laughably linear sojourn that sometimes also continuously threatens to dump you into a pit, and it especially doesn't need to be a sojourn away from a game they copied from someone else.

All this talking about Unleashed is getting me down. I think I'll talk about Adventure. E-102 was a strange fusion between a platformer and Panzer Dragoon, and was an unbelievable mess... And I mean that in the best possible way. His levels are a frantic blitzkrieg against the clock, I don't think I would believe how exhilarating it could get if I hadn't played it myself. Then Hot Shelter turns it all up to eleven. His jet booster thing also made a really cool sound.

I also see them reusing environments between characters as a positive, simply because the results were so much better, and it was also interesting seeing how different characters would approach a situation (That reminds me of something...). The styles that survived into Adventure 2 weren't fun at all*, seeming more like chores you had to do before you could play the next Sonic/Shadow level. I suppose you could say that the Werehog being similar in this respect is a remnant of it being Adventure 3.

*No seriously, the treasure hunting levels in SA 2 remain among the worst levels in the entire franchise.