Repairing Sonic for the new decade

[Blazey Firekitty]

Any characters other than Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles and Tails (and presumably some robots for them to beat)

Well, I'd miss Amy.;; To me she's become as much a part of Sonic's main cast as Tails, Knux and 'Botnik.

[Shiny Gems]

Well, i can think of at least think of a couple of things that "the general public" do NOT want in a Sonic game:

1 A story

2 3D

3 Voice acting

4 Any characters other than Sonic, Eggman, Knuckles and Tails (and presumably some robots for them to beat)

5 Electric guitars

6 The name "Eggman"

Until Sega gets rid of all those things, people are gonna bitch about how Sonic sucks nowadays even if the gameplay is actually good.

First, I think the general public you are talking about is more limited to pessimists than it includes everyone else.

Second, I have made a rant about these things on Deviant Art. However, instead of posting the rant here, I will simply say that those are minor problems Sega does not necessarily focus on, no matter how much the fans whine about it.

For those reasons, you can best get over those things because in the long run, Sega and Sonic Team do not have to fix these problems just because the fans want such changes.

[ArtFenix]

Remember the last time SEGA listened to the fans? The fans wanted to get a third Sonic Adventure. So SEGA listened and made a game that is basically Sonic Adventure 3 with a different title. Do you remember that game? IT WAS SONIC '06.

That doesn't make any sence! Don't you understand?! Sonic 06 is bad not because it is some kind of "Sonic adventure 3". It is bad because it is just unfinished! It IS obvios!

[Solid SOAP]

Even if it was finished it still would of been a dumbed down Sonic Adventure 2 with a shitty story, why would you want the same experience again, only not as good?

Sonic Unleashed is a step forward in the franchise. Faster, better story and atmosphere, new art style that isn't shit generic realism, less characters, and it's actually fun.

[Blazey Firekitty]

While the execution was ultimately kind of awkward and didn't have same feel as the Mega Drive/Genesis games, I'm personally pretty happy that with Unleashed Sega tried to inject a bit more platforming/alternate routes into the gameplay.

[vger]

Whatever they do to 'fix' the franchise will make a lot of people very unhappy and maybe a few happy, the problem is everyone has there own idea of what they want and no idea how to implement it or if in fact it is even possible.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Whatever they do to 'fix' the franchise will make a lot of people very unhappy and maybe a few happy, the problem is everyone has there own idea of what they want and no idea how to implement it or if in fact it is even possible.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to be pleasing everyone with a Sonic game any time soon.

Unless Sonic Team hires a mind-reading psychic or something.

[SuperStingray]

Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to be pleasing everyone with a Sonic game any time soon.

Unless Sonic Team hires a mind-reading psychic or something.

I don't think that would be a good idea. That psychic will gather so many conflicting thoughts, his or her head will explode in confusion.

[Gin93]

bah, I'm fine with sonic the way he is, i dont get what everyone wants though

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't think that would be a good idea. That psychic will gather so many conflicting thoughts, his or her head will explode in confusion.

I guess you don't have be a robot for a paradox to blow your head up.

[Indigo Rush]

I guess you don't have be a robot for a paradox to blow your head up.

This man obviously tried.

I heard he was later cloned and used as a pawn to run the United States.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Sarah Palin: Now that my running mate is out of the picture, I'll be free to build the Palinland of my dreams! Ohohoho!

[Indigo Rush]

Sarah Palin: Now that my running mate is out of the picture, I'll be free to build the Palinland of my dreams! Ohohoho!

[Flyboy Fox]

Okay, okay... as amusing as that was, no more picture spam please Back on topic.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Ya know, I think it'd be pretty cool to put more Japanese mythology into the sonic games. Tails and Blaze are loosely based off of Japanese animal spirits, Amy's got that whole "red string of fate" thing going, and the Knights of the Round Table were rather Samurai like with their code of honor.

Come on, who wouldn't want nine tailed Super Tails?

[Ryan Brown]

That doesn't make any sence! Don't you understand?! Sonic 06 is bad not because it is some kind of "Sonic adventure 3". It is bad because it is just unfinished! It IS obvios!

Learn to spell before yelling at someone for disagreeing with you.

[Phos]

Does the way Sonic moved in 06 count as a glitch?

[Indigo Rush]

Does the way Sonic moved in 06 count as a glitch?

No, but it still sucked.

[SuperStingray]

Does the way Sonic moved in 06 count as a glitch?

It's hard to tell what was or wasn't a glitch in that game.

[Blacklightning]

Well as far as "repairing" goes, Unleashed did at least fix up some of the basic problems that persisted through most of the adventure style games (touch-of-death centric combat and complete ring loss for getting hit as key examples). So far I just feel the new gameplay engine they use (no, NOT the Hedgehog Engine and Havok Engine for those who are really that dense) just isn't versatile enough for all the basic needs of a general Sonic game yet. The only real proof of that you need is that they actually had to make two completely seperate playstyles to accomodate Sonic and the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed. First big step is to make a gameplay scheme that can be adapted for practically any addition to it with the smallest amount of modification possible. Funnily enough, this was the ONE thing that Sonic '06 did right, even if the characters themselves were shit as far as their actual movesets go.

One BIG problem with the Unleashed/Rush mechanics is the boost. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad invention or anything, but the game literally has to hold your hand for it to work half decently - and in turn killing any sense of exploration the series was once loved for. Again, that just ain't versatile enough, especially considering that the game has to run in one great big straight line to prevent you from falling off the stage (and even THEN it's near-unavoidable sometimes). The only real way you could make a decently explorable game with this kind of thing is by making the levels really fuckin' big. If you ask me, that's half the solution. The games should have some kind of clear distinction between where a faster speed is going to do you good and where it's going to get you killed. Have some levels gigantic and barren to make the most of it and others tight and confined to make you think twice, sure, that's one way to go about it. Just don't make us use it throughout the entire game and punish us for it later. It isn't pleasant to say the least.

Not that it helps matters that momentum isn't always transferred properly between actions, nor is it possible to stop or turn on a dime.

One last thing is the optionalisation (is that actually a word?) of everything. Now it's possible to make a game still enjoyable with everything mandatory, sure (espeically if my first point were to be taken into consideration), but a lot of people are really so thick that it ruins the experience for them. So doing away with mandatory objectives beyond running past goal posts really fast is probably for the best. I'm not just talking about actual game objectives, mind (though Sun/Moon medals are still generally a terrible idea, particularly for the people that actually play Sonic games to RUN FAST) - moreso the utilization of gameplay styles beyond what the player wants to play. Now I can understand if people don't want to sit through a slow-ass Eggman-based gameplay, but if they don't have to sit through it to play the infamous "last story", there's nothing really that they can bitch about.

Matter of fact, ditch the entire template of story progression between SA1 and today. I don't really like to be a classicist, but as much as I'd hate to admit it, the old style actually worked. Each character had their own routes through the same levels, their own similar-but-different gameplays, their own endings (including their own "last story" final bosses)... I mean, fuck, you could pick anyone on the roster and act like it was their own game. THAT's how well it worked. Not that it has to work the exact same way (though the prospect of an arcadey style Sonic game like that is still tempting) - just stop forcing us to do things we obviously don't want to do.

There. That's MY thoughts on repairing Sonic. There's a lot more to it than that, I'll admit it right now, but I feel these things would be a tremendous help.

[Autobobby1]

That doesn't make any sence! Don't you understand?! Sonic 06 is bad not because it is some kind of "Sonic adventure 3". It is bad because it is just unfinished! It IS obvios!

Yes, it does make sense. They wanted to please the fans, and the fans wanted it done sooner, so they rushed it. I never said that it was a bad game because it was basically Sonic Adventure 3.

But you can never please all of the fans all of the time. Let's look at Shadow, he's the perfect example. He was awesome in SA2 and gained a large fanbase. So SEGA brought him back in Heroes, but that just screwed things up and pissed off a lot of fans saying that his death meant nothing. Then they decided to make him a badass again and explain his past in ShtH...not because the general public wanted it, but because the hardcore fans wanted it. So by listening to the fans, SEGA seriously messed up Shadow's reputation.

[SuperStingray]

Yes, it does make sense. They wanted to please the fans, and the fans wanted it done sooner, so they rushed it. I never said that it was a bad game because it was basically Sonic Adventure 3.

Actually, I believe that was because Microsoft rushed Sega to get it out in time for the holidays. That, and one of the developers claimed that they were under heavy pressure since there was only one team working on the game for each of the consoles.

[lounge]

He was awesome in SA2 and gained a large fanbase. So SEGA brought him back in Heroes

Why do you make that assumption? Maybe they brought him back in heroes, because the director (who also happens to be shadow's designer) likes the character and wanted to bring him back.

and explain his past in ShtH...not because the general public wanted it, but because the hardcore fans wanted it.

"Since we first introduced him in Sonic Adventure 2 , we have wanted to feature Shadow in his own game,"

Looks to me like they wanted to create a game for him from the very beginning, and not from the demand of fans.

Edited March 22, 2009 by lounge

[Autobobby1]

"Since we first introduced him in Sonic Adventure 2 , we have wanted to feature Shadow in his own game,"

Looks to me like they wanted to create a game for him from the very beginning, and not from the demand of fans.

But they wouldn't just make a game because they wanted to make it. They had to know it would sell well, and fan demand probably led them to believe it would be well-received. I'm not saying that we, the fans, have ruined the series. I'm just saying that Sonic Team tries to listen to the fans, but we have conflicting opinions and therefore it is difficult to please everyone. They should just try to do what they see fit since the fanbase can't stop arguing.

[ovarloard]

Well as far as "repairing" goes, Unleashed did at least fix up some of the basic problems that persisted through most of the adventure style games (touch-of-death centric combat and complete ring loss for getting hit as key examples). So far I just feel the new gameplay engine they use (no, NOT the Hedgehog Engine and Havok Engine for those who are really that dense) just isn't versatile enough for all the basic needs of a general Sonic game yet. The only real proof of that you need is that they actually had to make two completely seperate playstyles to accomodate Sonic and the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed. First big step is to make a gameplay scheme that can be adapted for practically any addition to it with the smallest amount of modification possible. Funnily enough, this was the ONE thing that Sonic '06 did right, even if the characters themselves were shit as far as their actual movesets go.

Technically, Werehog isn't Sonic (or even Sonic-styled, for that matter), so the fact that they made two separate game engines shouldn't matter. Most of the characters move a whole lot faster than the Werehog, and they don't have to do the precise platforming that he does, at least not with the sometimes annoying jump-and-grab mechanics.

One BIG problem with the Unleashed/Rush mechanics is the boost. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad invention or anything, but the game literally has to hold your hand for it to work half decently - and in turn killing any sense of exploration the series was once loved for. Again, that just ain't versatile enough, especially considering that the game has to run in one great big straight line to prevent you from falling off the stage (and even THEN it's near-unavoidable sometimes). The only real way you could make a decently explorable game with this kind of thing is by making the levels really fuckin' big. If you ask me, that's half the solution. The games should have some kind of clear distinction between where a faster speed is going to do you good and where it's going to get you killed. Have some levels gigantic and barren to make the most of it and others tight and confined to make you think twice, sure, that's one way to go about it. Just don't make us use it throughout the entire game and punish us for it later. It isn't pleasant to say the least.

Unleashed (Wii) wasn't nearly as fast as its hi-def counterpart, and the boost doesn't keep going constantly. (It's possible to run out of boost. Gasp!) You can make it through without using the boost if you so wish, but you can also choose to boost basically the whole way, and as long as you heed the obvious (don't run into obstacles while on water or walls), you should be fine. Its levels are big enough to be fun, although the bigger still, the better still.

One last thing is the optionalisation (is that actually a word?) of everything. Now it's possible to make a game still enjoyable with everything mandatory, sure (espeically if my first point were to be taken into consideration), but a lot of people are really so thick that it ruins the experience for them. So doing away with mandatory objectives beyond running past goal posts really fast is probably for the best. I'm not just talking about actual game objectives, mind (though Sun/Moon medals are still generally a terrible idea, particularly for the people that actually play Sonic games to RUN FAST) - moreso the utilization of gameplay styles beyond what the player wants to play. Now I can understand if people don't want to sit through a slow-ass Eggman-based gameplay, but if they don't have to sit through it to play the infamous "last story", there's nothing really that they can bitch about.

Black Knight has accomplished half of that taking away the beyond-mandatory stages (making them optional). Sonic Unleashed could have done that as well, if Sonic Team had spent enough time on the daytime stages. Instead, they relegated a lot of effort to programming the Werehog stages, which they probably knew people would complain about.

Again, the Wii version of Unleashed fixes the problem with medals; they aren't needed to progress in the game, but they can unlock certain extra stages and items.

Matter of fact, ditch the entire template of story progression between SA1 and today. I don't really like to be a classicist, but as much as I'd hate to admit it, the old style actually worked. Each character had their own routes through the same levels, their own similar-but-different gameplays, their own endings (including their own "last story" final bosses)... I mean, fuck, you could pick anyone on the roster and act like it was their own game. THAT's how well it worked. Not that it has to work the exact same way (though the prospect of an arcadey style Sonic game like that is still tempting) - just stop forcing us to do things we obviously don't want to do.

Make the Werehog stages less precise (beam balancing in Empire City), add a few more alternate routes, and you're pretty much set with that. You could run through as Sonic if you added all the springs and such and made the stages bigger, and Knuckles and Silver should be fine for the stages.